Was Danny Brown sexually assaulted on stage?

This story is pretty all around gross. Trigger warning for grossness, k?

Because we’ve yet to hear from Danny Brown on the whole incident, aside from his bragging on Twitter, it’s hard to say exactly how everything went down or what the context was for Brown getting a blow job from a fan, on stage, at a recent show in Minneapolis, MN.

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The story’s getting a lot of attention, not just because it’s kind of a, let’s say, “salacious” story, but also because rapper, Kitty Pryde, who is on tour with Brown and witnessed the incident, is “mad as hell” that people aren’t calling it “an actual sexual assault.”

Some further context (this is an account from someone in the audience):

I was right behind the girl and saw everything it was scaring: Okay so this is how it all went down, I was near the front row and all night Danny had been going up to the crowd and having random girls touch his d*ck through his pants. Then this girl in front of me starts flashing him and he goes up to her and grabs her t*ts. Then all of a sudden gets up close pulls his shirt up a little and she start blowing him. Then I’m behind her and I start getting pushed against her by the crowd shifting. It horrible and i hope you guys will be donating to my future therapy sessions but also i came back with a story. He rapped the entire time during too.

In case you aren’t a hip-hop fan, or haven’t heard of Danny Brown, he’s not exactly the most pro-woman of rappers. And I know that isn’t necessarily saying much… There is, unfortunately, a lot of misogyny in hip-hop (just like in the real world, whaddya know!)… But I think it’s reasonable to say he’s something of a misogynist, in lyrics and in life. (Full disclosure: I included one of his tracks, “Grown Up” in my not-famous-or-even-remotely-something-anyone-cares-about-but-me-and-maybe-two-of-my-friends top ten hip-hop tracks of 2012 list, before I saw this conversation between him and A$AP Rocky and decided to leave him off next year’s list…)

Now. I understand, full well, that men can be sexually assaulted. Even misogynist men. Like women (though at lower rates), men, too, are raped (by other men). I’m not saying that Danny Brown isn’t “assaultable”. That’s not my point.

If I were Kitty Pryde, and I was the opening act for another rapper and had to witness him getting a blow job on stage, I would be pissed too. Livid, in fact. But her reasons for being angry about the incident confuse me a little.

She says that her friend, Danny Brown, “like anyone else… wants to be respected as an artist and a human.” Ok. Sure he does. He doesn’t seem to have much respect for women, as “humans,” with lyrics like “Fuck a bitch mouth until her fucking face cave in,” but whatever. They aren’t important. Danny Brown wants our respect, so we should give it to him. Pryde says, specifically, Brown wants to be respected “as a man.” And we all know what that means, don’t we? To be respected “as a man,” particularly in hyper-masculine, pro-misogyny environments, means treating women like holes that dicks go in.

Pryde also says she’s mad that “when two dudes pulled my pants down onstage, other people got mad too, but when it happened to Danny the initial reaction was like one big high-five.” So ok. I’m mad, too. I’m mad that this is part of hip-hop culture and I’m mad that this kind of thing gets Brown props. I’m mad about all the ass-shaking women do for Diplo, too. In general, I’m mad about the way women are marginalized and relegated to being either ornaments or groupies in so much of hip-hop. But I also understand why, when two dudes pull down a woman’s pants on stage, versus what happened to Brown, the reaction would be different. So, what Pryde is “mad as hell” about seems misplaced to me.

If the accounts are true, that Brown was having random girls touch his dick, through his pants, throughout the night and that he grabbed the breasts of a woman who flashed him, and, if you look at the photo of the incident, you see Brown’s hand on the back of the woman’s head and assume it’s a semi-accurate depiction of what went down… I don’t know… I feel like the context for this incident, in comparison with a situation where two men pull down the pants of a woman on stage, is quite different.

I don’t agree that people should be performing sexual acts on strangers without their consent, obviously. And I do think that a culture wherein men are supposed to enjoy it when this kind of thing happens, because they’re men, and they’re supposed to want it all the time, is really, really awful and dangerous. But to be all up in arms that people either don’t care “because a girl did it to a boy” or that people aren’t calling this rape or are unwilling to say that what happened at that show is the exact same thing as two men ripping the pants off of a woman on stage or sexually assaulting a woman on stage seems a bit off base to me.

Brown uses women as objects to prop up his own masculinity — in his lyrics and at his shows. He brags about not missing a beat as a woman blows him on stage. He holds the back of her head as she’s doing it. Is that the same thing as a man raping a woman? And is it true that we “don’t care” because the gender roles are reversed? It’s times like these where I feel that context is important, and that perhaps Pryde doesn’t quite understand the significance of that context.

Now, if Brown comes out and says, you know, “that photo is manipulated and I bragged about the incident in order to protect my masculinity but actually I felt violated,” fine. Maybe we can have a different conversation. But at this point I’m uncomfortable simply switching out “man” for “woman” and saying “it’s the same thing.”

 

Meghan Murphy

Meghan Murphy

Meghan Murphy, founder and editor of Feminist Current, is a freelance writer and journalist. She completed a Masters degree in the department of Gender, Sexuality and Women’s Studies at Simon Fraser University in 2012 and lives in Vancouver, B.C. with her dog. Follow her @meghanemurphy

  • stringofpearls

    Isn’t this just as staged as Janet Jackson’s breast expose, and Bruce Springsteen (waaaay back…) pulling his sister up on stage: we were told it was a rabid fan. All engineered to look random, but all choreographed, planned.

    If it was, then it was the woman who was sexually exploited, just the same way any prostituted woman is. You know, money or goods in kind don’t change what happened. A woman was pimped.

  • Hecuba

    Danny Brown sexually assaulted? It is the reverse according to one woman’s account because Danny Brown pulled the woman’s head towards his puny dick and Brown held the woman’s head so that she was head to dick!

    Why didn’t Brown pull away if he was sexually assaulted? Why didn’t Brown stop the show? Why aren’t we focusing on what Brown didn’t do because that is what happens whenever males sexually assault/rape women – the focus is always on what the female victim should have done.

    Methinks men are making a mountain out of a molehill!

  • http://metamorphocity.com/ Sarah

    What a bizarre story. I totally agree, saying that we should all be mad as hell that this man was sexually assaulted or equating it with what happened to Kitty Pryde seems way off-base, given the context.

  • dave

    it may be unfair, but i am tempted to argue that kitty pryde’s defense of her “friend” is not dissimilar to so-called “sex-worker advocates”–read pimps who happen to be female: in both cases one is confronted with a woman doing apologetic work for an untenable and ridiculous system of oppression of women, and it is fairly obvious in both cases that she does so to legitimize making money at the expense of other women. of course, in the former case the pimp is overtly legitimizing the commodification of a women’s body for sex, but in the latter, this woman makes a very half-hearted attempt at criticizing hip-hop culture (in fact, she only criticizes the fans) for expecting rappers to be constantly ready and willing to have sex with any woman, a pathetic attempt at an apology for brown’s behavior and lyrics, and her job in that industry. especially after watching that video of brown and asap rocky in barcelona, i say that this is either naïve self-delusion (to give the young woman the benefit of the doubt), or something more subtle and odious. leave it to someone in our time, where liberalism reigns supreme, to argue that a person can say as he pleases (freedom of speech), do as he pleases (remember, fucking nasty bitches anally is his favorite), and then argue that it is the fault of the FANS that hip-hop expects this kind of reaction to such behavior. i also note that she makes no mention of the tweets, where brown further buries himself and further marginalizes the woman–he brags he can rap on stage and have sex at the same time–in this way the sex act becomes totally about him as she is reduced to something even lesser than the usual masturbatory accessory she is during his post-performance escapades. this makes me wonder if hip hop has not been so totally perverted from its original incarnation that it is now thoroughly contemptible and useless.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Totally! Like, why doesn’t she address HIS misogynistic behaviour? And the, generally, misogynistic, hyper-masculine culture of hip-hop? And all she can come up with is to be mad at fans for not immediately calling this woman a rapist? What I think happened is that Pryde was (rightly) angry and grossed out at what happened, couldn’t quite sort out the reasons WHY she was mad, was unwilling to call out her “friend” on his misogynistic behaviour, and so came up with this, as an answer.

      • copleycat

        “Pryde was (rightly) angry and grossed out at what happened, couldn’t quite sort out the reasons WHY she was mad, was unwilling to call out her “friend” on his misogynistic behaviour, and so came up with this, as an answer”

        I agree, and this particular kind of displacement happens all too often.

        • Meghan Murphy

          She’s mad at the girl and mad at the fans. Nothing said about Brown’s behaviour or the culture at large. Lame.

  • vouchsafer

    Ew!

    I’m going to take this opportunity to beg females everywhere to please have more respect for themselves than that.

    I’m not anti-fellatio, I’m just against making of yourself a nameless orifice in a crowd. That’s selling oneself short.

  • http://notazerosumgame.blogspot.com/ MarinaS (@marstrina)

    Yeah, I do think some people (e.g. the OP) care less because he’s a man. If the sitch was reversed, we’d all be tweeting #ibelieveher and explaining how the hand on the back of the head could have just been a surprise response and how the muted bragging is really a way of not being able to process what has happened as a sexual assault. Both of which I think are valid points, actually.

    He doesn’t have to be a nice man working in a nice industry in order for unwanted sexual contact to be a bad thing in his case. Yes, there is context here, but the context I think is that there are no perfect victims – not even male ones.

    I dunno, I’m a fan of FC usually, but it sounds to me as if the OP is almost looking for excuses not to care.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Does it sounds like I don’t care? Or does it sounds like I care, specifically, about misogyny and hyper-masculinity and the way women fit into hip-hop culture? Am I the OP?

      You can’t just say “if the situation was reversed”, because power structures don’t work that way.

      • Laur

        Exactly. The context matters. When men are sexually assaulted by women, people are shocked and outraged and post stories saying, “see?! Women rape too!!!” But, really, stories of women sexually assaulting others are the exceptions that prove the rule. Obviously, no one should be sexually assaulted by anyone. And it’s feminists in the anti-rape movement who are the ones saying this.

        Finally, men who are assaulted by women are not assaulted in a context of female violence against men. They still deal with stigma but are not looking over their shoulders to make sure a strange woman isn’t about to attack them.

        I’m waiting to hear what the woman in this case has to say before jumping to any conclusions.

        • lizor

          *Trigger waring on this comment.*

          I agree Laur.

          I also don’t know much at all about female-on-male rape. I have heard of women forcing fellatio on men (and I am leaving out molestation of/coercive sex with boys by women here) and I can imaging that if this is forced, it can be traumatic. However, I wonder how many men, no matter their orientation, would respond if given the choice between having a woman force fellatio on them and having a man force anal penetration followed by oral penetration (as per the dominant narrative of pornography) until the rapist orgasms?

          I find the conflation of those two experiences problematic.

          • Vouchsafer

            I agree lizor

            I think there’s been a misogynism inherent in hip hop since the beginning, in fact, I’d say it’s a big part of how the wheels of this current rape culture began to spin.

            I’m reminded of even my own personal nostalgic canadian fave, Organized Rhyme. their biggest hit, check the O.R. features lines like “flipping women like pancakes” and “I lay more chicks than Mother Goose” and I remember my teenybopper self rapping right along with it without even stopping to question it.

            Then you’ve got the obviously misogynist Biggie Smalls, you can fill in any number of lyrics here that you want, or Ludakris’s “How you ain’t gonna fuck? Bitch, I’m me. I’m the God-Damned reason you in VIP”
            And Eminem – “I’m lookin for a girl who could do what ever the fuck I say, every day she be givin it up so shake that ass for me”

            I’m not going to say I haven’t rocked the fuck out to these songs on the dancefloor drunk a million times or so, which is somthing that in retrospect I should have had more respect for myself than to do.
            But the point I was making is that it’s been a subtle thread throughout hip hop since it’s inception, and it’s getting ever more blatant every day the longer it goes unchallenged. What’s worse, it’s helped to pave the way for the rise of mainstream pornification such as what lizor describes above. it’s like if you mass-market the message through the music of a whole generation that women are inferior and to be mistreated, then you have an easier time marketing rapey porn to them all a few years later with the rise of high speed internet.
            makes a lot of sense when you see how indoctrinated into it large percentages of the female population are, the ones who aren’t bothered by the prevalance of violent porn. It’s like they’ve been pre-conditioned to accept it through the lyrics of the music they grew up with, to accept that women are sub-human.
            It is a giant backlash, and again, who profits? the same mass market media corps that own record labels probly own the porn distribs as well.

    • Beta Girl

      Thank you! The most educated feminist response I’ve come across.

  • sporenda

    Imagine the reverse happening: a female performer onstage fondling a flasher, having male fans groping her crotch, etc.
    And finzlly a guy jumps on the stage and tries to rape her.

    The universal reaction would be : “the bitch asked for it, in fact she begged for it”.
    Even radfems would have a hard time justifying this type of extreme sexually provocative behavior.

    One of the nice things about being a male is that there is always a female ready to excuse and justify the most unexcusable behaviors, wipe your brow, cater to your needs, mother you, support you, and take care of you even when you have turned into an old geezer.
    Sometimes this mothering is not even justified by considerations of self interest or self preservation, it’s just dumb submission to the compulsory servicing of males imposed on females.
    Women never get off easy and their behavior is always juged more severely than men’s, including by other females.

    In that case, since hip hop is so completely dominated by males peddling the vilest forms of misogyny, the supportive reaction of the girl might just be a way of getting acceptance in a deply hostile environment.
    She will discover it’s not a winning strategy with those guys, being their handmaiden is not going to earn her their love and respect: women haters might hate “uppity” females but they hate just as much the subservient idiots who behave like doormats.

    • shaed

      I am no radfem, and I would have no problem not being a rape apologist regardless of any provocative behavior from the survivor preceding their rape.

      It is really creepy that you think that would be difficult.

  • lizor

    Just when you thought the backlash could not get more perverse…

  • Fetty

    Here’s a crazy conspiracy theory:If the witness account shown in this article is true,I suspect that the woman in the audience may have threatened to charge him with sexual assault or someone suggested to him or his handlers that he may get in legal trouble and so this plan was devised to get a woman to publicly announce that HE was sexually assaulted to distract the public from recognizing what really happened.There is a question whether Danny Brown’s misogyny matters in him being assaulted,I say the question should really be does Katie Pryde’s misogyny matter in this issue.She is close friends with a total misogynist,who has openly hated on women.Is this just not her way of hating on women and rallying up the support of feminists that are too eager to be seen as caring about male sexual assault victims(When really Ms.Pryde is not the first woman to speak out about male friends being raped or sexually assaulted).And how clever it would be for her to get feminists on her bandwagon to shame and silence a female victim by convincing feminists that SHE perpetrated the violation.See,that way that woman can feel betrayed by feminists and Kitty Pryde can laugh to herself (as there is no evidence that she is actually a feminist,I mean she is such close friends with total misogynists,that’s very strange if she really is a feminist.)as all her woman-hating male friends pat her on the back for pulling one over on the feminists and bashing the woman exploited by Danny Brown at the same time.

  • Andy

    I don’t think Kitty is trying to say that what happened to Danny Brown is the same thing as two men trying to pull down her pants or that it’s rape or that the power dynamics are the same or anything else. All she’s saying is that without consent, that type of behavior should constitute sexual assault. Post-hoc justifications for that lack of consent based on Danny’s reaction (or lack thereof) are, in my opinion, shitty and stupid and wouldn’t happen if the genders were reversed (at least not in the feminist blogosphere). It’s disheartening that Danny’s character is used to justify nonconsensual (and possibly unwanted) sexual touching.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Danny’s character is not being used to justify nonconsensual sexual touching. Also, this whole ‘reverse the genders then what’ thing is b.s. Different contexts — which is why I was critical of Kitty’s rant. I also wonder if you asked whether or not Danny asked for consent before fondling the flasher’s breasts? Kitty was saying, you know, this same thing happened to me and people reacted differently — why aren’t they reacting the same way to what happened to Danny?

    • RQuando

      Don’t bother. You’re trying to debate a cloistered person with extreme class and race privilege in Vancouver.

      Brown is a misogynist and terrible musician. None of that changes the fact that someone pulled down his pants and sexually assaulted him on stage. That this is the headline you have chosen is absurd. Instead of condemning the act and pointing out the pervasive rape culture in this country that is instructing people that it is okay to grab, grope, or sexually assault without consent, we get a ridiculous rationalization for the offense incorporating and misusing male/female power dynamics.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Extreme class privilege MY ASS. Shut uuuuup.

        And yeah, male/female power dynamics are TOTALLY irrelevant when it comes to rape culture.

  • Miranda

    A lot of what I’m seeing here is really disappointing. Really? You really think the solution is to continue the cycle of victim blaming? You think that’s going to help anyone? Well good luck with that.

    Either he invited it, or he didn’t. If he did, then why aren’t we asking the girl what heppened? Which no one seems to want to do… Why don’t we ask whether there was consent on both sides? And if he didn’t, why on earth would we not be supportive of someone who was violated? Are you trying to say he deserves to be assaulted because he/his lyrics are misogynist?

    Yes, there is a wider issue here, about misogyny in hip-hop and misogyny in general, and those are IMPORTANT conversations to have, but what @marstrina said is true: “there are no perfect victims – not even male ones.”

    Also, Kitty’s not even a man, how can this be men making a big deal? It seems to me like the opposite, the men (by which I mean those “high-fiving” Danny without even knowing the story) seem to be content to see the whole thing as case closed, without even hearing from the woman who allegedly did “The Thing.” Which speaks even more to the problem that Kitty was saying exists, that guys in hip-hop (of their own doing or not, whatever, that’s another debate altogether) are expected to do things a certain way, and that way is detrimental to men, and more so to women.

    • Meghan Murphy

      I totally agree that the expectations of how men are supposed to behave is harmful to both men and women. And no, I don’t think he deserves to be assaulted. I also don’t feel comfortable, which so little information, calling this rape. I also think Pryde’s anger is misdirected.

      It appears that a few commenters are really into asking this “are you saying?” “are you saying?” question about things that I haven’t said — which makes that question easily answerable without having to make me say “no, I didn’t say that.”

  • alliecat84

    What? Did you even read her letter? If you did, you’ll know that she says the accounts of what happened before the assault weren’t accurate. At the end of the day, someone performed a sex act on someone else without their permission. That is rape. END OF STORY! Even if he was inviting people to touch him before it happened, that doesn’t give anyone permission to perform a sex act. Women who wear short skirts or makeup don’t deserve uninvited sexual contact. You’ll stand up for them and say they weren’t asking for it, but just because it’s a man, he was. Whatever happened to “Active yes every time”? This whole article is just slut shaming directed at a man.

    • Meghan Murphy

      She says “I won’t go into detail about the actual events because I was pretty drunk and I don’t want to tell the wrong story.” It’s, like, one person’s fuzzy account vs. other people’s maybe also fuzzy accounts. Also, I don’t argue that simply because he was inviting people to touch him before it happened, it gives permission to perform a sex act. There should always be consent. I’m still not comfortable calling this rape or saying that it’s the same thing as if two guys ripped the clothes of off a woman on stage. There is a different context. I also question why, if we’re so concerned about respect (which is one of the things I would assume we care about when we’re talking about things like consent — oh, also sexual violence… which is encouraged, apparently, in Brown’s lyrics), we don’t care about Brown’s complete lack of respect for women?

      • Asmo

        “I also question why, if we’re so concerned about respect… we don’t care about Brown’s complete lack of respect for women?”

        Because that has jack shit to do with whether or not he was sexually assaulted?

        • Meghan Murphy

          No but it DOES have to do with Kitty Pryde’s misdirected anger.

    • lizor

      Given that opinion is that he was raped on stage, alliecat, do you now wonder if his experience of sexual assault will have any sort of impact on his sexually aggressive music?

  • sporenda

    “I also don’t feel comfortable, which so little information, calling this rape”

    So do I. Also, I do not know what the definition of rape is where this took place.
    Where I live, it involves the penetration of a bodily orifice by a penis or any object.
    If the definition is the same in Canada, it would be sexual agression, not rape.
    But more importantly, the context is indeed very different: a male (usually physically stronger than a female), in the middle of a crowd (as opposed to a female being usually alone with her rapist): contrary to the female victims of rape, this guy wasn’t powerless to stop the agression.
    he could have
    – pushed the girl away and re-zipped his fly
    – asked for help in case (unlikely) he could not pry her loose from his genitals.

    When it comes to rape, there is no equality between men and women and there are lots of reasons for this: biological (the possession of a penis, superior physical strength), and social (patriarchy, gender roles and the existence of a rape culture where women exist to be fucked and men are supposed to do the fucking, not the other way around).

    First, I would like to hear the version of the “agressor”;
    second, based on intuition, this story (the hype around it) sounds like one of these typical MRAs bogus arguments: “men are just as much victims of domestic violence as women (factually false), just as much victims of murder by women as women by men (police statistics show men are way more letal to women than the other way around), just as often victims of rape as women (ridiculous).
    And there will always be a stupid woman to act as a mouthpiece for this patriarchal BS, and she will not even be rewarded with gratitude or money for her overzealous service to patriarchal propaganda.

    I don’t condone the girl’s behavior–she definitely crossed the line, what she did is stupid and she is going to be branded as a slut for a long time.
    But contrary to what happens in a rape, this guy wasn’t overpowered, he could have easily pulled his penis from the girl’s mouth.

    But he did not, he let her perform the BJ;
    Could it be because he thought that this was great publicity for him? A woman performing oral sex on him in front of a crowd, what a tribute to his virility, definitely something to give him top crediility in hip hop.
    Also, in the macho ideology compulsory in hip hop, a real man is always ready for sex, so if he’d turn her down, he would have been called a faggot by his peers.
    In any case, what happened to DB is not about a man being treated like a woman; in fact, it may well be just the opposite: a misogynistic man boosting his macho image by having a sexually subservient female perform a sex act on him in front of his fans.
    Which looks suspiciously like a scene straight out of a hip hop video clip.

    • Meghan Murphy

      “In any case, what happened to DB is not about a man being treated like a woman; in fact, it may well be just the opposite: a misogynistic man boosting his macho image by having a sexually subservient female perform a sex act on him in front of his fans.” YEP.

    • lizor

      Also, has DB referred to this incident himself? How does he frame what happened?

    • Beta girl

      You can go about pleasing yourself claiming it was unlikely, but he DID PULL AWAY. And if you know anything about males, that means something. You can’t base an entire claim off of unsupported evidence. This is rape.

  • yeah

    This article is gross but not for the reasons you think it is.

    Also I’m pretty uncomfortable with a white person practicing ownership over the body of a person of color, no matter what the context. This piece is actually the first one I’ve read not to mention race at all.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Hmm… None of the articles I read prior to writing about this talked about the race issue. Though, certainly there could be a conversation to be had around that. All Kitty Pryde said on the issue of race was: “I know why. It’s because everyone wants the option of blaming it on Danny, because people can’t accept the fact that a white girl raped a black dude in front of a bunch of people.”

      So… Yeah, no. Because calling this rape is off-base.

      • yeah

        It’s not that a conversation could be had around that, it’s that it should be had around that. Since so much of this seems to revolve around context, that this involved a white woman and a black man does complicate how people react and perceive the incident.

        Pryde may have only (openly) commented on race that one time but I prefer that to not mentioning it at all. Plus, it recontextualizes everything that she wrote that came before in the article.

        • Meghan Murphy

          Well within the context of “is this sexual assault or not”, which was the conversation I was having, within this post, I think the race conversation would have been a bit of a different conversation. And, to be honest, when I wrote about this (very quickly upon reading the news), that the woman was white didn’t even stick with me.

          Like, would the answer to the question that I’m asking: “Was this rape/sexual assault,” have changed had I included an in depth conversation around race?

          • yeah

            I don’t buy that talking about race would had been a different conversation, as if there are specific times that one can talk about rape culture and race and the two topics must never be combined. Speaking of which, I have to go back and clarify, when I said this was the first piece I read that didn’t mention race, I should have said that I’ve only read 3 pieces so far, all of which did touch upon the race of the people involved. An in-depth conversation about how race plays into this probably wouldn’t have changed your mind, you seemed pretty set on everything. Maybe I’m just tired of how people talk (or don’t) about race in relation to rape culture and misogyny. It’s okay if that’s not your deal, I just feel like there’s much more to be talked about here that complicates the question of “Was this rape/sexual assault” even further in a way that should definitely be thought about.

          • Meghan Murphy

            Sure, I hear that. I wrote this post in an hour as a quick commentary on the issue and do see how it could be relevant to the conversation.

    • lizor

      Giving a blow job is “practicing ownership”? This is news to me and also perhaps to the billions of men who use the phrase “suck my dick”, and the myriad other versions of that charming phrase.

      • yeah

        If a white person performs a sex act on a person of color without consent prior to the act, I don’t know how else to see that but the white person thinking they’re entitled to the control and use of the POC’s body, regardless of the specific sex act.

        • lizor

          OK, I understand what you mean. However, are you proposing that in the case of the BJ being discussed that the fan was acting out racialized power over Dan Brown? Do you believe that Dan Brown did not want her to suck his dick?

          • yeah

            I think that the way race works in this society made it more “okay” in the mind of the fan (and everyone else) to jump up on stage and do what she did. Is race the only factor in this? No, of course not but I think it definitely plays a role.

            As for the question of Brown wanting a BJ or not, obviously I have no answer for that. He probably did want it to happen, I have no clue. I mean, he’s supposed to want it, isn’t he? His music presents him as a hypersexual black man and, according to society, that’s what he is. I dunno, I guess I’m more interested in how and why people reacted to this the way they did.

          • lizor

            That’s interesting – an aspect I honestly did not consider. Thanks.

  • Steve

    “Like women (though at lower rates), men, too, are raped (by other men).”

    So in other words men can’t be raped by women, got it.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Oh please. I say this over and over again, but once again: THE EXCEPTION DOES NOT MAKE THE RULE.

      • PM

        Steve seems to be making a “gotcha!”-type argument, but your wording did leave something to be desired. The “(by other men)” implies that only men rape men.

        • Meghan Murphy

          Men rape. I’m sure there are the few odd women who rape as well, but this is a decidedly gendered phenomenon. Stop derailing with this silliness.

          • Asmo

            It’s not “derailing” when the conversation we’re having is explicitly about a woman sexually assaulting a man. In fact, that’s dead-on-topic.

          • Meghan Murphy

            Nope. You’re trying to twist this into a “but women rape men too” convo when we all know, full well, that it’s men who are doing the raping in this world.

          • Asmo

            Men commit the vast, vast majority of rape, but just because the reverse is exceedingly rare doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. This whole post is about an incident in which a woman sexually assaulted a man. If that’s not an appropriate time to bring up female-on-male rape and sexual assault, then what is? Talking about it doesn’t detract, in any way whatsoever, from discussions about the overwhelmingly more common occurrence of men raping women.

            Look, I agree with you that men raping women and women raping men are very different things, and that they can’t really be compared directly because of the differences in privilege between men and women in our culture. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t anything worth considering or talking about when stuff like this Danny Brown incident happens.

            Honestly, when the discussion is about a man who was sexually assaulted by a woman and you make a comment strongly implying that women can’t rape men, it’s not fucking derailing for someone to point that out. And frankly, you’re minimizing the term by using it here. All you’re trying to do with that shit is shut down the conversation. It’s fucking gross.

          • Meghan Murphy

            Was Danny Brown raped? Explain how.

  • sporenda

    ” So in other words men can’t be raped by women, got it.”

    Could somebody explain once and for all this concept of “rape of men by women”?
    Practically, how is this done? Since in the real world (not the world of urban legends created by men’s fears and fantasies), rape implies two material conditions:
    – superior physical strength on the side of the rapist (or drugging his victim)
    – possession of a penis in a state of erection (or some sort of penetrative instrument).

    Both these conditions being prerequisites, so how can women rape men since they fulfill neither?

    The people on this site (like Steve) who argue repeatedly in support of this mythic notion of men raped by women never explain exactly what they mean by it.
    Is it about 6 ft 2 bruiser women crushing men by sheer physical force and anally penetrating them with dildos?
    Is it about women dosing men with a shot of rape drug laced with Viagra, so they can ride their stiff prick for hours while the guys lay inconscious, like succubus witches from hell?
    More seriously, Is it about women groping and insisting so much that men finally get an erection and “can’t say no”?
    When this sexual coercion happens to women, it’s just called sex: lots of men still think it’s ok to coerce and wear down women to have sex . Meghan was called a liar and defamatory for calling it “rapey”.
    So Danny Brown, after repeatedly sexually taunting his fans, is the target of a drunk bj-ying woman. There was no penetration and he or his body guards could easily have pushed her away, but it’s called rape, people rush to his defense, poor Danny, it’s God awful.
    And of course nobody says: he asked for it, he was wearing tight trousers, he let women touch his crotch, it was all a big macho act.
    When a woman gets REALLY physically overpowered by a man and REALLY penetrated against her will, it’s no big deal, patriarchal business as usual.
    And OF COURSE it’s her fault, because she did not say no loud enough, she wore tight jeans, etc.

    When (once in a blue moon) an easy to fend off sexual assault happens to a man, it’s rape, and it’s an outcry.
    When rape happens to a woman (and dozens of rape take place everyday in the US), it’s just life in macholand, get over it.

    If one tenth of the violences done to women in porn were done to men, porn would have been banned long time ago.

    • Meghan Murphy

      sporenda wins commenter of the week.

    • Asmo

      “Since in the real world (not the world of urban legends created by men’s fears and fantasies), rape implies two material conditions:
      – superior physical strength on the side of the rapist (or drugging his victim)
      – possession of a penis in a state of erection (or some sort of penetrative instrument).”

      This is straight-up wrong. Rape is simply sex without consent; it doesn’t require that the victim be penetrated. Envelopment without consent is just as much rape as penetration is. Furthermore, superior physical strength isn’t required either. Drugging, like you mentioned, negates consent, as well as coercion. Threatening violence doesn’t require that the person doing the threatening be bigger, either. You’re also wrong if you think that an erection equals consent.

      “After repeatedly sexually taunting his fans”

      Really? You are literally saying that he was “asking for it.” Do I really need to explain how fucked up that is?

      “And he or his body guards could easily have pushed her away”

      So it wasn’t rape because he didn’t fight back hard enough. Got it. It doesn’t matter that there wasn’t penetration either; if Kitty Pryde’s account is true, she performed a sex act on him against without his. That’s what rape is. Period.

      “And of course nobody says: he asked for it, he was wearing tight trousers, he let women touch his crotch, it was all a big macho act.”

      You and other people, including the author of this article are saying EXACTLY that, for fuck’s sake.

      As a feminist, I’m really, really grossed out by some other feminists response to this incident. Way to prove the MRA’s right, douchebags.

      • PM

        The fact that this:

        “Could somebody explain once and for all this concept of “rape of men by women”?
        Practically, how is this done? Since in the real world (not the world of urban legends created by men’s fears and fantasies), rape implies two material conditions:
        – superior physical strength on the side of the rapist (or drugging his victim)
        – possession of a penis in a state of erection (or some sort of penetrative instrument).

        Both these conditions being prerequisites, so how can women rape men since they fulfill neither?”

        gets “commenter of the week” from someone with a MASTER’S IN WOMEN’S STUDIES makes me want to vomit.

        • Meghan Murphy

          Why don’t you try actually responding? Or are you unable? No one seems willing to respond to her actual comment… Which seems telling, to me.

          • lizor

            Agreed Meghan. I would like to hear more specifically what this means, as I ham-fistedly noted upstream in this thread.

            PM? Anyone?

            I also would like to know if Danny Brown has referred to this incident at all after the fact and if so, how he would describe what happened on stage that night.

          • PM

            I wanted to wait until after my last final exam to give this the proper response, so here goes. First, I did post an example of what one man went through when he was raped by a woman, in response to poster “Laur.” above. You chose not to let that comment out of moderation. It was venomous, but that’s not against your comment policies, especially since the commenter was spreading ignorance (“male victims are not looking over their shoulders…”). I’ll post it again – http://jameslandrith.com/content/view/3914/1/

            and you can read the account of his rape here: http://jameslandrith.com/content/view/3148/

            Of course, all this hedges on whether you view a man being forced to perform penis-in-vagina/ass/mouth “rape.” I do, and anyone who doesn’t is, to put it bluntly, a rape-denying bigot. Curiously, the study I cite below doesn’t count a man being made to penetrate someone else as “rape.” Still, if we’re in agreement that this act is rape, then we can proceed under that assumption.

            As for the statistics you wanted, the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey by the US Center for Disease Control shows that men are often the victim of sexual violence from women. When being “made to penetrate” – “For three of the other
            forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims reported only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (79.2%), sexual coercion (83.6%), and unwanted sexual contact (53.1%).”

            See page 24 (page 34 of the pdf file): http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf

            So, the myth that only men rape other men is a myth, and it’s a myth that you’ve helped to spread in your OP, in the comments, and by applauding the comments of others. Not only that, but rape of men by women is fairly common. From the same study, see Table 2.2 on page 19 (29 of the pdf): men report a lifetime prevalence of 4.8% “made to penetrate,” and a 1.1% prevalence of “made to penetrate” in the last 12 months. From what I cited above, we know that women perpetrated ~79% of those “made to penetrate” incidents.

          • Meghan Murphy

            The VAST, VAST majority of rapes are perpetrated by men. End of story. THE EXCEPTION DOES NOT MAKE THE RULE.

          • A. Misogynst

            What is your point here?

            Yes, you are right. What you have said is fact.

            That doesn’t mean women can’t rape men, which is what you seem to be implying in your posts, and others seem to be stating outright.

          • Meghan Murphy

            So what. What is your point? Was Danny Brown raped? Is that your point? Do you have a point? Be sure to fill us all in.

      • Rye

        It’s not automatically rape if consent is not explicitly verbalized. It’s recommended to clarify any ambiguity, of course, but no one would say it’s rape if a couple relied on their body language and both felt it was consensual.

        I don’t think Danny Brown expected a bj, but his situation is very different from, say, a woman who gives her compliance because she is powerless and fears how her rapist might react if she were to resist. By contrast, Danny Brown had the power to stop her without suffering a scratch. Moreover, by the picture of him putting his hands behind her head, he acted like a person who was giving very clear non-verbal confirmation that he consented.

  • sporenda

    “This is straight-up wrong. Rape is simply sex without consent; it doesn’t require that the victim be penetrated. Envelopment without consent is just as much rape as penetration is. Furthermore, superior physical strength isn’t required either. Drugging, like you mentioned, negates consent, as well as coercion.”

    In Canada the definition of rape is different from most countries. Apparently, there is no legal definition using the word “rape”, the law refers simply to “sexual assault”:
    “Definition of Sexual Assault in Canada’s Criminal Code:
    265. (1) A person commits an assault when
    (a) without the consent of another person, he applies force intentionally to that other person, directly or indirectly;”

    In the US (I am a US citizen), for a long time, rape in all states could only be done by a man to a woman, as it was defined as the penetration of a penis in a vagina, in the act of “carnal knowledge”.
    Very recently, in most states (not all), this definition has been extended to any penetration (vaginal, anal, or oral) by a penis or any penetrative object.
    It’s also the definition adopted in most Western European countries: penetration still defines rape in most places.

    Still, even in Canada, the other prerequisite for rape remains: that it be “non consensual”; so the person raped has to be either physically forced or drugged.
    And since women are not strong enough to use the “forcible” approach with men, a woman wanting to rape/assault a man has only one option: she would have to drug him first.
    And then what? Give a BJ to a passed out man with a limp penis? Penetrate him anally with a dildo?
    Really, does this strike you as a realistic scenario? How often does this happen in real life? As opposed to the 85 000+ yearly rapes (where I live now) by men who rape women “the old fashioned way”–by penetrating them with their penises?
    Do you really think that there are many women out there whose idea of sex is to sodomize passed out men with a dildo or to fellate the flacid dick of a zombie ?

    These cock and bull stories (pun not intended) about “women raping men” are typical MRAs BS, male chauvinists projecting their porn fantasies on women. A quick look at police statistics should be enough to dispell such myths–unless you have a vested interest in propagating these absurdities of course.

    …/…

    • A. Misogynst

      In response to your first point: You are just arguing semantics. Rape is what it is; sex without consent. No amount of legal loopholes or vague definitions will change that. Penetration must occur due to the nature of “sex” versus “sexual acts”, but whether it is a man forcing himself on a woman or vice versa is irrelevant; both are rape.

      “Still, even in Canada, the other prerequisite for rape remains: that it be “non consensual”; so the person raped has to be either physically forced or drugged.”

      This is untrue; you imply that physical force or drugs are the only way for women to control men. Manipulation is also another key tactic that can be utilised, please read the link posted earlier for clarification ( http://jameslandrith.com/content/view/3914/1/ )

      “And since women are not strong enough to use the “forcible” approach with men”

      This is also untrue, and I believe a strange generalisation for someone defending women’s equality to make. There are plenty of situations in which a woman could overpower a man. Whether or not they occur often is irrelevant, you are clearly implying that they do not happen at all.

      “And then what? Give a BJ to a passed out man with a limp penis? Penetrate him anally with a dildo?”

      I don’t see how those are not realistic; worse things happen on a regular basis around the world. How can you seriously suggest that women cannot drug and rape men because it’s unrealistic?

      “How often does this happen in real life?”

      Why is this relevant? It doesn’t matter at all how often it happens. You’re trying to suggest it does not happen at all, which is untrue. There is enough evidence to the contrary.

      “As opposed to the 85 000+ yearly rapes (where I live now) by men who rape women “the old fashioned way”–by penetrating them with their penises?”

      Yes, you’re right, men rape women more than women rape men. Once again, I fail to see your point. Nobody here is disagreeing with you, because you are correct. What we’re saying is, women can rape men. That is also fact, it does happen.

      —-

      “Do you really think that there are many women out there whose idea of sex is to sodomize passed out men with a dildo or to fellate the flacid dick of a zombie ?”

      There are women out there that enjoy sex with corpses and animals, what you are describing is tame in comparison. I imagine there are a fair few women who get off on the idea of raping a man. Again, it doesn’t matter how many women would do it, the fact is, it’s possible.

      I cannot respond to your last paragraph as you failed to make a single point to which I can argue against. What I will say is that the burden of proof is on you. Anybody can say “A quick look at police statistics [proves my point]”, but you can’t expect it to be taken seriously without providing citations.

      • Meghan Murphy

        “‘How often does this happen in real life?’

        Why is this relevant? It doesn’t matter at all how often it happens. You’re trying to suggest it does not happen at all, which is untrue. There is enough evidence to the contrary.”

        It’s relevant because rape is a gendered phenomenon and because you’re trying to pretend as though it isn’t.

  • sporenda

    “After repeatedly sexually taunting his fans”
    Really? You are literally saying that he was “asking for it.” Do I really need to explain how fucked up that is?”

    Either you have not understood a thing I said, or you are deliberately twisting my words to attack me on imaginary meanings. Same thing was done to Meghan above.
    What I said is: if a woman got raped after letting a bunch of men grope her crotch, the public reaction would be “she asked for it”. Since DB is a man, he can let a bunch of women grope his crotch, nobody questions his prior behavior, nobody says ‘he asked for it”.
    To spell it out: I ABSOLUTELY DONT SAY it’s justified to react by “she/he asked for it”, I just pointed at a double standard of the first water.

    “And he or his body guards could easily have pushed her away”. “
    So it wasn’t rape because he didn’t fight back hard enough. Got it. It doesn’t matter that there wasn’t penetration either…”.

    NO, twisting my words again, I never said he did not fight hard enough. Simply that the circumstances were drastically different from the statistically “normal”, man on woman, rape:
    – he was stronger than the woman who assaulted him.
    – the incident took place in front of crowd, raped women are usually alone with their rapist/s
    – he had bodyguards to protect him
    – he has money, celebrity and power
    When a man tried to stick his penis in me when I was 13, I was alone with him, I did not have bodyguards, and he weighted about 60 pounds more than I.
    So what this girl did is wrong and stupid but I think that what happened to a strong (er), famous, bodyguarded man in front of a crowd of fans and what happened to me (and countless other young girls and boys) is not the same. And pretending it’s the same is deceitful and dishonest.
    Rape occurs typically in a situation of power differential, it’s about the strong (older, stronger, socially powerful, having authority, which means usually men) preying on the weak (women and children). Here, the power was clearly on DB’s side.

    “As a feminist, I’m really, really grossed out by some other feminists response to this incident. Way to prove the MRA’s right, douchebags.”

    Feminists dont call feminists who disagree with them “douchebags”; trolls call people who disagree with them douchebags.
    And I apologize to Meghan for these long posts.

    • A. Misogynst

      “if a woman got raped after letting a bunch of men grope her crotch, the public reaction would be “she asked for it”.”

      That depends on your definition of public reaction.
      Do you mean the media? No media outlet would dare blame the victim (because that is never okay).
      Do you mean the people at the scene of the attack? That depends on a variety of things, such as the individuals there and the environment.
      Do you mean the opinion of the average person reading an article? I like to think that most people are intelligent and rational enough to know that it is never the fault of the victim, whether they are male or female. However I will concede that there are many people out there who are narrow minded and perhaps they would disagree.

      “Since DB is a man, he can let a bunch of women grope his crotch, nobody questions his prior behavior[sic], nobody says ‘he asked for it”.”

      Firstly, whether or not that actually took place is unknown at this point, any evidence on either side is anecdotal at best. Secondly, there are plenty of people who question his behaviour on a regular basis, like yourself and other feminists. It’s good that you do, because hip-hop artists like him perpetuate misogyny in the world which is something that should have been stopped a long time ago. Thirdly, nobody said he asked for it, because nobody should say that. He didn’t ask for it. No victim does.

      “To spell it out: I ABSOLUTELY DONT SAY it’s justified to react by “she/he asked for it”, I just pointed at a double standard of the first water.”

      I don’t think there is a double standard at all; nobody here has said that women are to blame when they are raped. Yes, there are people out there that say that, and there are people out there who disagree. There are also people out there that blame male victims and those that don’t.

      I am at least glad that you are not trying to blame Danny for being sexually assaulted.

      “he was stronger than the woman who assaulted him.”

      True. However, this was a concert, in front of fans and journalists, all taking photographs and filming. Would you have preferred that he use his strength to stop the woman? If he did, I imagine he would be blamed for hurting her. I can’t say that for definite, but it is very likely, and why would he run the risk of ruining his career? We all know what happened to Chris Brown. So, that’s why his strength couldn’t help him

      “the incident took place in front of crowd, raped women are usually alone with their rapist/s”

      What is your point here? Both things you’ve said are true, but I don’t see what you’re trying to say. Is it worse that women are alone? Would women prefer it if a crowd watched them be raped?

      “he had bodyguards to protect him”

      I have heard otherwise from multiple news articles on the web. However, you have made this claim, so burden of proof is on you. Could you please provide a link with proof that there were bodyguards at this event?

      “he has money, celebrity and power”

      These things are also true, and again, I fail to see how this means he cannot be raped. Sure, he has money, but that doesn’t mean he consented to this woman assaulting him. Is it worse for a poor woman to be raped than a rich woman?

      “So what this girl did is wrong and stupid but I think that what happened to a strong (er), famous, bodyguarded man in front of a crowd of fans and what happened to me (and countless other young girls and boys) is not the same. And pretending it’s the same is deceitful and dishonest.”

      Nobody here is saying that they are the same. They aren’t. They may fit into the same definition, but they aren’t the same. He was sexually assaulted. It sounds like that is also what happened to you. That doesn’t mean they are the same thing. What happened to you is much, much worse.

      “Rape occurs typically in a situation of power differential, it’s about the strong (older, stronger, socially powerful, having authority, which means usually men) preying on the weak (women and children).”

      This is true enough. That is how rape usually occurs. However, that is not what rape is. Yes, in the majority of situations, the rapist is stronger in many ways, but correlation does not equal causation. Rape itself has nothing to do with power, all it comes down to is non-consensual sex. The gender/race/status of the perpetrator is irrelevant.

      Again, I cannot respond to your last paragraph as there is nothing I could say that would be constructive

      • Meghan Murphy

        “‘Rape occurs typically in a situation of power differential, it’s about the strong (older, stronger, socially powerful, having authority, which means usually men) preying on the weak (women and children).’

        This is true enough. That is how rape usually occurs. However, that is not what rape is. Yes, in the majority of situations, the rapist is stronger in many ways, but correlation does not equal causation. Rape itself has nothing to do with power, all it comes down to is non-consensual sex. The gender/race/status of the perpetrator is irrelevant.”

        Wrong-o. The gender is ALWAYS relevant. Power is always relevant. Rape is about male power.

  • P

    I think the most important thing here is indeed CONTEXT. So let’s talk about the context of a rap show. Let’s talk about the precedent this sort of behavior sets within that context, a context that is occupied by both male and female performers. All of these blind allies regarding consent or whether or not men can be raped are just that: blind alleys. That is, tired arguments that chase their own tails. To me, the real danger is when crowds at any rap show begin to think that such bodily invasion of performers is okay. And it does not matter at all what the performer is saying. This sort of behavior isn’t tolerated at many strip clubs where the content of the performance is overtly sexual so who cares what the content is. Regardless of whether or not we call this a “sexual assault” or a “rape” I think the important point is that it threatens to make such actions more likely to happen to women and men. Misogynist men often subject each other to all manner of assault as well as assaulting women because their sense of self hinges upon power-trippy access to the bodies of others. Personally, I wounder about how white privilege is at work in the assumed access to black bodies in this case, but that’s whole other can of worms. Anyway, nuff said.

  • womynbornwomyn

    ‘I understand, full well, that men can be sexually assaulted.’ why is this shit all about the menz? what makes you think women have the power to assault men? even they do rarely its irrelevant. why can’t your feminism be about women. we know stupid disgusting shit like this happens.

  • Stan

    If this incident can be called rape, then he was raped not by that girl, but by his own masculinity-obsession. Which caused him to do all the things he did before, caused his bodyguards not to intervene, caused him to not do anything about it.

    I am quite sure that the girl never intended to humiliate him in any way. He told everyone who wanted to hear it that he loves to have his dick sucked and that women are just interchangeable objects to him. I’m sure she was 100% convinced that he would love it.

    Now, that sentence was what convinced me: “He brags about not missing a beat as a woman blows him on stage.”

    I believe that a man can be too shocked to react when a woman makes her intention to rape (Not to have sex, to rape) him clear, but this was clearly not the case here.

    I’m 90% convinced this is a plot to avoid that he is sued by a girl HE DID rape. I would like to hear her story about that incidence.