America really, really hates women

Getty Images
Getty Images

I have a laugh like Hillary’s — a loud, open-mouthed, unladylike, boisterous laugh that sometimes makes people stare at me. My laugh is not an attractive laugh. It’s not cute or girlish. The world, apparently, hates that. The world hates loud, unapologetic women who persevere despite relentless efforts to shut them the fuck up. Especially ones who can still laugh along the way, unwilling to be silenced and stifled by the hatred fueled by patriarchy. (Indeed, when learning femininity people are taught to quiet their laughs to a polite giggle, covering their mouths or simply keeping their mouths closed entirely. Those learning masculinity, on the other hand, are encouraged to laugh loudly, mouths open, unapologetically. In other words, men may laugh freely and authentically, whereas women must aspire towards invisibility and silence, stifling any and every natural impulse they have.)

Hillary Rodham, as pointed out by Samantha Bee, was forced to become Hillary Clinton in order to make the patriarchs more comfortable. America tried to pound the authenticity — the real Hillary — out of her, only to punish her for being a “fake politician robot” when authenticity suddenly became cool.

Of course, the reality is that there is actually nothing women can do that is right. Because they are women. They are always doing everything wrong — they are either too slutty or too prudish, too nice or too mean, not assertive enough or bitches, too fake or too real, too young or too old, too loud, too driven, too smart, too dumb… Regardless of the details, the problem always comes down to too much vagina.

 

Women who are real, who say what they think, and who don’t back down are nasty, mean, lying, hysterical, delusional bitches. LOL! A woman?! Not caving to society’s demands that they sit down and shut up? You must be insane. We are supposed to be weeping quietly, crumpled on the kitchen floor, not cackling away joyously. Not surviving. Not persevering. Not fighting harder. Not winning.

Hillary may well not have been your feminist dream girl, but let’s not kid ourselves: she was not so widely reviled because of her politics (she’s hardly any different, politically, than the much-adored Obama) — but because she is female. She was hated in specifically sexist ways.

This tough-ass, unshakeable woman was not only forced stand on stage and debate a sociopathic, abusive, racist, childish, lunatic rapist (who was likely appalled, himself, at having to share this particular stage with a woman — one who he considers unfuckable, at that), made to face the fact that this is a man people would choose to vote for instead of her, but she lost to this man. American voted for a white supremacist nazi buffoon instead of a qualified, intelligent female candidate.

This was the first time American women had been able to vote for a female president. This was a big deal. And I am so heartbroken for my American sisters. But even more than that — I am heartbroken for all women. This election has taught us that most people truly don’t care about sexual assault, about domestic abuse, about male violence, and about dehumanization. They will put men who call women fat pigs, slobs, and dogs — men who brag about sexual assault — into the White House. Because who really gives a fuck? It’s just women, after all. And let’s be honest: we’re used to this shit. So used to it we don’t even see it as all that bad.

Hillary lost, not because she was a bad candidate, but because she is a woman. White men won this election. Fear won this election — fear of the “other,” fear of losing power, jobs, money, guns, property, and privilege. Hatred won too — of minorities, refugees, people of colour, and, of course, women. The absolute unwillingness, on the parts of white Americans, to consider a woman as president won. Even women voted against themselves — for a man who doesn’t see them as equal, never mind human. Who, quite frankly, hates them.

Misogyny comes from the left, the right, and the middle. It comes from those who should be with us. It’s not just the overt sexism that won this election — the kind of stuff that comes out of Donald Trump’s mouth — but the attitudes of our leftist “brothers” who couldn’t stand Hillary’s voice, face, smile… Who could pontificate about how evil she is and have little to say to their friends who call her “shrill” or “unlikeable” or a “bitch.” Little to say when they call me or you any of those coded slurs that bros know they can get away with. Less to say about Trump than they do about “That Woman.” Misogyny thrives across the political spectrum. Men would rather vote for a rapist than a woman. Women still think they can gain a sliver of power and safety by stepping on the necks of other women. I wonder if they, too, are afraid…

I can only hope that this nightmare inspires solidarity. That we will struggle together. That we will seek strength and solidarity among our sisters — not from the men who abandon, abuse, rape, insult, and hate us. That we choose to fight, not to panic and grasp at our husbands or boyfriends or at god, not bury ourselves in feelgood rituals and self-help books, not choose denial as a coping mecanism. That we finally get angry. We need to get really, really angry.

This time, misogyny won. And we need to recognize that before moving forward. No more excuses.

Meghan Murphy
Meghan Murphy

Founder & Editor

Meghan Murphy is a freelance writer and journalist. She has been podcasting and writing about feminism since 2010 and has published work in numerous national and international publications, including New Statesman, Vice, Al Jazeera, The Globe and Mail, I-D, Truthdig, and more. Meghan completed a Masters degree in the department of Gender, Sexuality and Women’s Studies at Simon Fraser University in 2012 and lives in Vancouver, B.C. with her dog.

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  • therealcie

    I will never, ever refer to that racist, sexist, xenophobic, homophobic bastard as my president. I have always given past presidents that much respect, even when I didn’t like their politics. The Cheeto Demagogue, however, I will only refer to as the Bully In Chief.
    Part of the problem lies with the Electoral College system. That shit needs to be gone.
    I’m sorry to the rest of the world that so many of my fellow U.S. citizens jumped on the Cheeto bandwagon. The Rump has made it safe to hate again. Things will get worse before they get better.
    Also, fuck white people. For the record, I am one, but I didn’t vote for that shitbag, and I’m embarrassed to be white right now.

  • Zhompo

    This is the victory that Comey and the other misogynists in the FBI fought for.

    This is a victory of the complacency of women of their own condition. Unlike us, they don’t even acknowledge the hate round them. And the complacency of so many other groups who should have known better and should have voted, particularly in North Carolina, Florida, Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania.

  • Spark658

    Thank you for writing everything I’ve been thinking tonight. I’ve never felt crushed and betrayed to quite this extent. My only hope is that this can be a catalyst for a much needed revolution.

    • Meghan Murphy

      I am so sad and fearful. Renewed solidarity is my only hope.

    • MJ

      This feeling of betrayal just won’t go away. My heart hurts.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Mine too.

  • Polly MacDavid

    Talk about waking up to a fucking nightmare. I am literally sick to my stomach. I’m on SS & the stock market is tumbling & I could lose EVERYTHING because of this. Hatred of women, tell me about it. I am so glad I have an appointment with my therapist this morning.

  • VickyVal

    What the fuck is going on and how do we band together to fix it in the opposition of literally millions of people who think women don’t deserve better? Feeling lost, sad and angry watching from Australia.

    • Rachael

      Same. I am in the UK and I want – I NEED – to do something. I just don’t know what to do. I have all of this pent up energy and anger and fucking determination. They have underestimated us, and it’s time to stop.

    • Katie MunchmaQuchi Smith

      We don’t. It’s over.

    • Bleeps3

      I don’t know that it can be fixed in the opposition. It’s like trying to fix Nazis. Self-interest is the only thing that appeals to them, and threats to their money is the closest thing to that.

  • melissa

    Wtf white women??Why? What happened?

    You know now this is being claimed as the fault of liberals by these people. Top comments on the guardian right now

    “This is really so easy. This could have ALL been avoided. How to stop Trump:
    … STOP treating ethnicity, gender, sexuality and religion as a proxy for
    class warfare; you are trying to displace them by creating a new
    under-class and stoking ethnocentrism, gynocentrism and tribalism for
    the purpose of manufacturing a new electorate and a globalised,
    supranational governance that NO-ONE wants…
    STOP speaking about groups, start speaking about individuals (you know, actual liberalism)….
    …Stop polarising ALL debate. Just because you aren’t rabidly
    pro-feminism, it doesn’t make you a misogynist. Just because you aren’t
    rabidly in favour of the EU, it doesn’t make you a fascist. Just because
    you don’t support black lives matter, it doesn’t make you a white
    supremacist. Just because you don’t support SSM, it doesn’t make you a
    homophobe…
    Get it? Until all of this STOPS, until we start to assign rights and
    responsibilities at the level of the individual and not the group, until
    all of the incessant shaming, self-loathing and guilt-tripping
    subsides, this will get infinitely worse.”
    “(https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2016/nov/08/us-election-2016-polls-trump-clinton-live#comments)

    Nah, this just solidified every claim of misogyny, homophobia, xenophobia, racism that gets thrown at Americans. You just proved them all 100% right once and for all.That’s the message the world just got.Nobody throws their country away to a fascist wannabe over “gynocnetrism” ,supposed unwarranted accusation of bigotry or someone being a meanie to you.And what a lovely threat there…”STFU or it will be getting even worse for you!”.

    • radwonka

      LOVE it when people give lessons on the internet like that “just DO THAT! STOP YOUR POLITICS DO WHAT I SAY ITS THE ONLY SOLUTION!!!!”

      “This could have ALL been avoided”

      or when dude admits that indeed, the misogynistic left is not *that* different than the misogynistic right.
      I bet they are the same dudes who support basic income and the free market.
      What do dudes do when they lose? They blame women. And do whites do when they lose? They blame poc.
      When are they going to take full responsability for their failures?
      Its not others fault if a class is racist and sexist, it is literally victim blaming: “they dont like you, because you talk about your oppression”…

      Maybe they need to realise that stupid media like libcom and jacobinmag arent convincing at all and wont help them either.

      “STOP speaking about groups, start speaking about individuals ”

      Oh who else depoliticizes class oppression? ah right, the right wing.

      “manufacturing a new electorate and a globalised,
      supranational governance that NO-ONE wants”

      Pff So dramatic. Anyway, I notice that he doesnt mention rich bosses or didnt talk about welfare and monthly salary or minimum wages. I bet he (or she?) probably supports the decriminalisation of prostitution and weed, because “its just labor/business”, but beyond that they offer no real interesting economical alternatives for poor people.

      Typical arrogant but useless as fuck leftist

  • Katie MunchmaQuchi Smith

    I don’t think there is any moving forward with this quite frankly. I give up. I’m not gonna waste my time fighting for my pesky little rights when everyone obviously doesn’t believe I deserve them.

  • Katie MunchmaQuchi Smith

    It teaches them the value of a chastity belt because that’s the best chance they’ll have

  • Mattagami

    The feminists need to stop the bullshit talk about being empowered, inspiring and motivated. They just need to be better organized and have realistic plans.

    • Abby Normal

      Exactly. How well did flashing tits on Instagram help this situation? We need action, not “empowerment”.

      • JingFei

        This is the wrong page for this sentiment (though you’re welcome to express it). You will find we agree with you. Perhaps you don’t realize, but there are two factions of Feminism that are at odds with each other. This is a “Radical” feminist web site. The type of feminists you are speaking about are third wave, “Liberal” Feminists.
        Flashing tits on Instagram is pure idiocy. But we can’t say that out loud anymore, they will ban us as “whorephobic” and call it
        “hate speech”.

        Maybe read a bit on this site if you want to understand more: http://www.feministcurrent.com/2015/12/14/shit-liberal-feminists-say-choice/

  • Katie MunchmaQuchi Smith

    The only difference is Brexit will be caught up in years and years of litigation and red tape and may never actually materialize. Trump is happening.

  • Katie MunchmaQuchi Smith

    I now accept my own oppression. I just have to decide whether I would like to be a domestic slave or sexual slave. That’s the only future for us

  • Meghan Murphy

    I can’t help but keep thinking about all the people who blamed ‘white women’ for HIllary, claiming support for her equaled ‘white feminism’ that left women of colour behind. It seems that what happened, rather, was that white women didn’t support Hillary enough and while women of colour showed up for her, many white women chose to support patriarchy instead. The left really missed the mark on that one…

  • Meghan Murphy

    All I saw was a bunch of leftists trying to shame feminists and progressive women into NOT supporting Clinton.

    • rosearan

      Yes, so did I. Especially on Alternative left-wing media. I was left black and blue trying to call out where their concerns about globalisation, permanent war and rising inequality ended and their misogyny began. But in the mainstream ‘progressive’ media – CNN, The Guardian, The New York Times et al, the message was ‘Hey, we’re making history. Let’s get behind this woman.’ Her background of corruption and warmongering was seen as a right-wing ‘conspiratory nutter’ irritant impeding the path of progress.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Considering the result, I wish more people *had* gotten behind Clinton because she is a woman.

        • Leo

          I think it might actually have turned out worse, if that helps any. If the misogyny was bad before, imagine how it’d be with her as President. She’d be scrutinised in a way male politicians aren’t, and as soon as she did something that hurt women -which she would’ve, for all the vaguely progressive noises she was making- it’d be ‘look, see, this is why you shouldn’t vote for someone just because she’s a woman. See, women being in charge makes no difference, just as bad as men, etc etc’.

          Here in the UK we had Thatcher, and I can’t say it resulted in much progress for women in power overall (we’ll see how it goes with May).

          Trump can’t do all the awful stuff he said, and I don’t actually think he even wants to – he’s obviously not exactly got any integrity, has he? Either way, Americans do still have the chance to fight it, progressives have a real chance to pull together from here, but they need to be more radical.

    • Wren

      YES.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I think the Republicans can now quite easily get rid of abortion access and Obamacare. Poor people are going to be even more fucked than they already are imo.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I guess my point is that I am shocked — completely shocked — at how much support Trump got.

  • rosearan

    I agree. Globalisation was the keystone of Trump’s electoral pitch. It has gutted the security of First World jobs. Whether he will follow through is another matter.

    I also agree that feminists do not talk enough about economic policy. After all, it’s the cornerstone of the patriarchy. Men traditionally bring home the bacon, even though few of them actually deliver, at least, without the willing assistance of a supportive woman.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    My job matters an incredible amount to me, if I didn’t have It I’d be homeless. I don’t really get your point here, there are millions of women whose jobs matter to them just as much as they do to men.

  • radwonka

    Leftists dont want to legalize it because they care about people, but because they are pro free market. Its a different ideology. But its just my opinion, I wont debate about it further.

  • marv

    False victories rule the world. Pushing forward with confidence nonetheless in feminist collectives and allies.

  • Ruth

    Everyone cares about their jobs! If I was unemployed, I’d vote for the candidate who I thought would create jobs, even if he said something rude and sexist 20 years earlier. That’s not misogyny. It’s just prioritizing your own life.

    • Leo

      It’s down to misogyny when they’re only pretending to think someone like him who has no respect for women and who won’t even pay his own workers cares about their jobs and the economy. Any statements they made about jobs being why they voted for Trump were merely a superficially reasonable excuse, that’s it. They know openly expressing misogyny and racism isn’t as acceptable as they want it to be, so they claim it’s about jobs instead.

      • Ruth

        He doesn’t need to care about jobs to create jobs. Building a wall, starting a war, deporting people, it all generates employment. But yeah, I get your point in general. I went through this weird chipper mood when I posted the comment. Trying to see the bright side. Just part of the grieving process.

  • Ruth

    It might not be that bad. He wasn’t a politician before, so he said all kinds of stupid things without thinking, as we all do. He probably changes his message depending on his audience and means only some of what he says. Oh well. Good luck to the US anyway.

    • NagaMorich

      The US is just getting a taste of its own medicine. They elevated trump, got the media to take him seriously and now wondering what happened. When they interfere in other countries this is the kind of saboteury thing they engage in. Now they turn it on their own ppl. I personally hope empire unravels due to all its inherent contradictions. And yeah he was just an actor – and while he is – as hillary is – a member of the 1% ruling class they’re not allowed to just do there own thing, the other members of the ruling class with more money dictate what they have to do.

      • Wren

        “I personally hope empire unravels due to all its inherent contradictions.”
        Yeah?? Thanks!! So women and minorities can perish in the chaos and violence of a disintegrating society??? Nice.

  • Esther

    Too many women have despised Hillary. Women didn’t want to be insulted and attacked for leftist men. Too hate to get solidarity. Women are too scared to get dignity and a life and the left makes this happens as much as the right

    • Wren

      You might have a point. Maybe many women voted for Trump to show their disapproval of an “uppity” woman because they are too afraid to be one themselves.

  • Leo

    I agree it was used cynically by liberals (but what else is new?) and we need to call that out, but not that it was just as often as the reverse. I think there was a lot of insincerity in it, too, the articles I read that were saying support Clinton because she’s a woman, they had this clickbait feel, like it was intended to provoke the Trump dudes, especially when it was combined with them actually being very soft on Trump. The mainstream media *wants* a backlash, it gets clicks and creates what they consider better stories and more conflict that they can then write about, and liberals don’t really care about women that much anyway.

  • LordofLight

    It’s also been painful today to see the looks on the faces of the many women I work with, knowing exactly what they’re thinking.

  • Leo

    Look at the way they voted, those stats above. I often don’t agree with liberals (am further left) and I think purely pragmatically, their tactics suck, but this is why they do not trust white people, white men, to have any kind of valid opinion and sensible input on things – because white people/men are a bunch of racist misogynists and they just proved it.

    No one, not even liberals, was complaining about actual constructive views put forward by white men, in fact they’ve tended to fall over themselves to praise white men for the slightest modicum of basic decency (like acknowledging women really do get assaulted and we’re not just making it up), rather the objection has been to white men for example entering feminist groups purely to derail and water down their politics.

    (what you consider ‘very liberal’ sounds like basic decency from here btw. If a few kids at university can make you ditch that, just because they’re politically naive in the way young people often are, you clearly weren’t all that dedicated. And are you kidding? It’s mostly the right wingers with the doxxing and the death threats, unless you’re talking specific transactivists -biological males-, who the feminists here do not agree with)

  • Independent Radical

    I’m not saying I’m apolitical or don’t give a shit, only that I’m not easily impressed by mainstream politicians. Clinton didn’t do enough to impress me or the average person who will not vote purely out of hate for the other politician, but out of a belief in who they’re actually voting for. Trump had a clear idea of what he stood for, did not compromise on it and acted like he could deliver. Of course, what he stood for is utterly horrific, but that confidence impresses people. Liberals are always catering and compromising. Particularly in academia, everything is “relative” this and “shade of grey” that (except when it comes to their enemies, such as radical feminists and revolutionary socialists or in Clinton’s case, Russia, they’re all clearly evil). Outside of academia, people don’t like all that lack of clarity and uncertainty. They don’t know what these politicians really believe in and hence don’t trust them.

    So I don’t think it’s the masses fault if they don’t want to vote either way. It’s the Democratic Party’s fault for disappointing them. You want my vote, you earn it and not just by being less evil than your opponent.

    • FakeFeminist

      In a FPTP system, not voting for party A is implicitly supporting party B. That’s just the math and the reality of the situation. Yes, it sucks, and I’m in 100% support of electoral reform for any country with a FPTP system (including my own). Until that happens? If you’re horrified by party B, you should vote for party A, even if they suck. The only time you can be excused is if you think they’re equally terrible.

      The sensible response to hating the “lesser of two evils” situation that FPTP tends to create isn’t to help the greater of two evils gain power. It’s to vote for the least-worst candidate while pushing as hard as you can for electoral reform. Plugging your ears to pretend that your system isn’t FPTP doesn’t actually accomplish anything.

  • Leo

    The racial aspect is just awful to see laid out so clearly like that, this seems like backlash following Obam’s administration.

    Still, while I don’t doubt there was misogyny involved in the criticism of her, I think the (non liberal) left are otherwise right, actually. The liberal left’s blatant hypocrisy and willingness to ‘compromise’ (ie. throw out any stated principles when it suits them) as and when convenient is a big part of what’s led to this – why should anyone have trusted them? If people see them tokenising racism and misogyny towards other goals, brushing them under the carpet at other times, then rascism and misogyny start to look less like real, important issues. They also hand control of the narrative to right wingers in seeking to undermine the more socialist/further left wing.

    From over here in the UK Clinton does not look very progressive, she looks like a more right wing version of our Conservatives (although, our Labour party has been getting very right wing, too. The US had a bad influence, as it tends to). America doesn’t *have* much of an actual left wing, I’m not sure it ever has. It needs one.

  • fxduffy

    I think Presidential campaign’s are waged in the major media and in the mainstream. They set the framework, the tone, the dynamics, the “issues” of this critical if superficial event. Trump fit perfectly within it and as a media performer (and nothing else) never had to accommodate or change himself in any way to fit it. It was Hillary alone who was expected to have positions, take issues head-on, adapt to the circus dynamics set by her opponent, and constantly walk a tightrope between femininity and potential Commander-in-Chief.

    To say that she used “misogyny” for “cynical political gain” esp. a few hours after her crushing defeat, seems pretty outrageous. I actually thought she underplayed her opponent’s misogyny (the NYT stressed it more) and deferred to his ugly implications that she was responsible for her husband’s sexual malfeasance.

    And do you really think that the mainstream voting public is demanding to know more about Clinton’s foreign policy, or her neo-liberalism and that she’s using charges of sexism to cover up these stances? If this is so, the public is incredibly unjust, because they certainly made no such demands on her opponent, who tossed words out the way we toss out garbage.

  • Leo

    Solidarity, he reminded me of my dad too, just his aggressive, intimidatory body language during the debates, it was actually triggering to see.

  • Tired feminist

    The USA have never been great. Like all modern American nations, they were built upon white supremacy and colonialism from day 1.

  • Bleeps3

    The problem with getting rid of globalization at this point is that the global economy is now, you know, global. If you can have your own sheep, spin your own yarn, knit your own clothing, and make all of your own food from your harvest, great for you. Most people will not be able to do that, and globalization needs to be fixed, not simply gotten rid of. Trade with places that can grow bananas better than we can actually helps us save money. Trade is about how you do it, it’s not bad or good by itself.

  • OedipaMaas

    If you expressed ANY support of Clinton without qualifying it with “yes, she’s an awful, evil imperialist, but…”, all the white leftist dudebros on my Facebook wall would pounce on you for being “neoliberal.” Trump was a joke to them and they actively endorsed voting for third party candidates because anyone was better than Hillary. They don’t give a shit about us and never will.

  • genny

    She had no substantial policies? Only the ones listed on her website along with how she would pay for every single one of them. If you want to criticize policies, aim for the RUMP. Aside from building a wall and somehow getting Mexico to pay for it, and repealing Obamacare, I bet you can’t name one policy position of his. Hillary was infinitely more qualified and more intelligent than this orange turd could ever hope to be. She ran a flawless campaign.

    • ohdear

      “She ran a flawless campaign.” I’m not sure what state you live in, and whether you heard campaign ads on tv/radio, but that’s just so not true. I say that just as an observation separate from the fact that I would never support her. And now that the campaign is playing the blame game, you can see much of it discussed and explained online — the terrible decisions they made, and things she said, etc. And, yes, the fact that they decided to emphasize Trump’s character instead of issues. Policy statements on a website is not “campaigning.” And they didn’t represent the change people were looking for (yes, I know Trump’s is a false change).

      I personally didn’t pay a lot of attention until the last month or so, and until then since Trump was so much more in the news, I thought he didn’t want to win with all his outlandish statements. Though I knew the Russian spy business was idiotic. I mean really. That’s what Clinton’s campaign hammers on? Then when I heard her speeches and some of the outrageously stupid* things she said (I have lots of “real” billionaires supporting me), and her campaign said, I was wondering if either candidate wanted to win. It was surreal. *Yes, I know she’s very intelligent, but she said stupid things. The ads on Spanish stations for Clinton in Florida were mostly about Trump and totally bizarre, but maybe those were all from PACS or whatever.

      She was also a über flawed candidate, so there wasn’t a lot they could have done, but they definitely could have done better.

  • Bleeps3

    Pence will play a large part, or possibly be in control, either way, honestly. It’s Gore v. Bush again. We’re reliving it.

  • Mitochondrial Eve

    Your point about Trump winning on a campaign based on fear hits the nail right on the head. If you do brain scans of Republicans thinking about politics, the amygdala (which is responsible for threat detection) lights right up like a Christmas tree.

  • Raysa_Lite

    I was not a fan of Clinton. But I didn’t need to love her to see how she was treated.

    It’s so discouraging.

    I am in small town SC. And the males are all saying “we just aren’t ready for a woman president.”

    So a black MALE is ok. Any male, apparently, just so long as it’s not a woman.

    Keep on raping, boys, there aren’t going to ever be any consequences! That’s what my country is saying. It’s disgusting.

    • Topazthecat

      I think Hillary is great,did you see her wonderful concession speech which had to be so hard for her to make? She told little girls that they need to know that they are valued and that they can accomplish their dreams.Also common sexist gender myths,gender roles and gender stereotypes are all connected to sexism and woman-hatred and this was the main reasons she didn’t win.

  • NagaMorich

    Apologies again, I have a longish one. (lol I bet a man wouldnt feel the need to apologize). Its a bit frustrating I guess.

    “she was not so widely reviled because of her politics (she’s hardly any different, politically, than the much-adored Obama) — but because she is female. She was hated in specifically sexist
    ways.”

    Yes she was widely reviled b/c of her politics. This is the problem with identity politics. Obama gets a pass b/c of race. He has taken Bush policies and doubled down and gets away with it b/c he’s got The First Black President Cover. Thats why many of us said that he was not the lesser evil but the more effective evil. He was better able to implement conservative policies than the conservatives – at least ppl would have put up an initial resistance to conservatives – but Obama effectively neutered black and white liberal opposition.

    Hillary Clinton did not suddenly appear on the scene, she has years and years of baggage– they the Clintons are extremely corrupt and he public knows this (AND YET, despite this many ppl are willing to overlook her criminality b/c “Trump is the Devil”. ). This was not her first Rodeo – a lot of ppl were introduced to the finer points of Clinton corruption durring the 08 election. You can’t suddently purge all of that from memory 8 yrs on, and then of course there are the scandals from her time as Secretary of State. Her lack of humanity was revealed to me when she laughed at another head of state being sodomized with a knife and then repeating we came we saw he died. Im sorry but this is no hero.

    I think we need to be honest. Had Obama not come out of the woodwork in 08, do wehonestly believe she would have lost to McCain? I don’t think só. Ppl had Bush/Cheney fatigue – all their scandals – and that coupled with historicity of first female prez wouldve seen her over the line. But first black president trumps first woman prez – especially since she had a priveleged background and is seen as an entrenched ruling class figure. Obama was sold – like trump – as the anti establishment candidate being sent in to shake up washington. The Clintons are a political family – they are
    synonymous with washington.

    So no not b/c she is a woman. But b/c like Obama – Trump ran as an outsider figure – and he spoke about ppls most pressing concern – economics. He – like obama had the populist rhetoric. Jobs jobs jobs they hollered. -Now we all know its all lies – they’re politicans – but ppl who dont follow closely or arent political junkies don’t. When did Hillary ever condescend to speak about POOR PEOPLE – who are the majority of the country? On- the contrary the elite liberal crowd chose to paint anyone who didnt like Hillary (even if they were against trump also) – as sexist/mysoginist/ racist/ uneducated country bumpkins who need to shut up and return to our cousin/spouse.

    The working class was villified to be ignorant racist/sexist pigsn- I doubt that encouraged anyone to vote for Hillary and might have even oaded a few to vote for Trump who would have not otherwise.

    I think what we need to do is step back and engage in a more sober analysis. Everything is a blame game now.

    And I’m sorry I know you want to say Hillary is flawed but she is a strong woman working for other women. No – her e-mails tell us she thinks Blacks, Roma, Hispanics and Arabs are “never do wells” who cannot rise above their station in life, even when given the same opportunities as white – now that isnt even insidious/micro aggression type stuff – that is some old skool racism. So I assume she lost the superpredator votes, she couldnt bring them to heel. She orchestrated the destruction of Libya – a strong African country who was attempting to get away from the american dollar and help other african countries in the process. Not to mention the years of raping Haiti. A million dollar wedding for Chelsea – Haiti can drown and michigan can drink poision.

    This was about economics mostly – about CLASS. We cannot subordinate class to sex/race. If anything, that is the lesson of this election for me. Anyway as confirmed by Trump’s own capitulating Oscar speech (lol I get the feeling they didnt think he was gonna win and só didnt have a proper speech ready, he had to buy time thanking everyone). We need not fall to all the fear mongering – things will go on as normal. Trump is going to disillusion his base and his voters just as Obama has – he won’t go after prosecuting the clintons the same way Obama said we have to look forward not backward when his base started to ask when he was going to send bush/cheney to to hague like he had campagined – or when he was going to close guantanamo. So some of us became disillusioned with the droneman others just kept making excuses for the first
    black “anti-war” president. Yes yes we have to intervene in Libya
    – for HUMANITARIAN REASONS. Oh please. Don’t worry folks the
    Clinton e-mails showed Citigroup hand picks the
    cabinet/administration, seeing how magnanimous and sober trump is being I suspect his little clown act is over and the changing of the
    guard can go on as planned. Citigroup will probably still handpick
    the cabinet/administration and the ruling class still own all our
    asses. Fear not the sun rises tomorrow and the bombs will continue to reign down on syrian women and girls.

    • Wren

      Yada yada I’m sick of hearing this same, routine lecture. So stop. This is absolutely not the time for your misdirected righteousness and it is COMPLETELY unhelpful. It only serves to make YOU feel superior and it infuriates me.

      And she lost because Americans hate women. Meghan is 100% right.

    • Pat

      NagaMorich, It’s no secret that Hillary was a deeply flawed candidate, but many of the points you are making require considerable attention and political analysis. Excuse me for saying it, but 100% of the people I know who voted for Trump would know nothing of what you speak. They would know, and I heard many clearly say, they would NEVER vote a woman as president. When you see people wearing shirts reading, “Trump that bitch”, it’s no guess what they think of women.

      I can’t disagree that the democrats completely failed at addressing the economic distress of the rural population, but that does not mean you vote an openly lying, childish, hateful, abusive, racist, misogynist with zero policy experience into office. Not to mention that he has promised to increase the power of evangelicals in this country, that he initially said women who have abortions should be punished, that he initially failed to disavow the KKK. No matter how disagreeable one finds Hillary, Trump is all that and then some – by a considerable margin.

  • Meghan Murphy

    This is a good point. Identity people ensures no one feels collective oppression or solidarity with others. Also, JingFei’s point, about how people “don’t try to understand why fear and hate exist, beyond just denouncing them as ‘bigoted'” is important… We can’t just close our eyes and reject everyone who thinks differently without trying to understand WHY. I mean, how can we effect change if we don’t figure out what’s behind people’s beliefs? Good stuff to think about…

  • Meghan Murphy

    omg what the actual fuck??? First ‘white feminists’ are responsible for Hillary, now they’re responsible for Trump??? Good fucking god.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I respect your perspective, though I do disagree. That’s ok with me.

  • Wren

    hahaha!!
    IKR???

  • Wren

    ” Americans are too stupid to vote.”
    Can’t say I disagree.

  • Meghan Murphy

    right-o. We should be talking about men voting with their dicks, not women ‘voting with their vaginas.’

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yes to all you’ve said (sadly). Solidarity, sister. I hope we can use this as some kind of opportunity, somehow. Turn this into the right’s last hurrah and get something real going in terms of opposition. It’s hard not to be cynical, though…

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yes, totally. No one wanted to stand up for Hillary. Myself included. And there’s really not much that scares me, in terms of speaking up.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Of course women are to blame! Who else?!

    • Anon

      All Clinton-leaning potential voters, who sat this one out, are to blame.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yeah that would have been cool.

  • Pat

    A hideous, dark time indeed. Heartbreaking. Disgusting. A pile of maggoty woman-hating crap is now our president. My condolences. Four years. We can make it, and we can kick ass every day until then!

  • Pat

    So sorry you had that experience, Tired feminist. My day was full of the same stuff. It was unbelievable to be at my job hearing WOMEN talk about voting for Trump. Talking about being excited. It’s beyond my comprehension.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yes, Trump is going to mess up so bad, so many times. I can’t imagine he will maintain popularity even with his supporters. But apparently LITERALLY ANYTHING can happen… ugh.

    W/r/t to going forward — good perspective. All is fucked, so fuck it.

  • Meghan Murphy

    word

  • Meghan Murphy

    <3

  • Bleeps3

    I agree. This was my experience.

  • FakeFeminist

    There are conflicting reports. Right-wing sources say she dropped the suit because her story was made up. Left-wing sources (and her lawyer) say she dropped it because she was receiving too many death threats. So my money is on the death threats.

  • Bleeps3

    I agree with you, and yet, I think it’s possible Hillary Clinton has been at this so long, and is smart as fuck, and knows how to get things done. How to talk so the military dudes in America will support her (to some extent), so that she can make life better for women around the world. I know it sounds crazy, but I believe it’s possible, despite how she appears in public and how she has been portrayed.

  • ohdear

    Oh, an economist on the BBC said it, it must be true.

    Hmm, I wonder why Black and Latino/a voters may not be running towards Clinton other than the fact that she’s a woman. Super predators? Mass incarceration? Honduras? Libya? Haiti? Come to Florida and speak with some Haitian Americans — men and women — about the Clintons. Or better yet — go to Haiti. Find out why, in a two-party system, knowledgeable men and women might vote for the “racist” and “sexist” because of Clinton’s actual history. Go to Dearborn (or listen/read on Democracy now) and see why Muslims — men and women — may have actually voted for Trump instead of her (interview with Muslim woman who worked for Clinton campaign as a surrogate but would only say anti-Trump things, but not pro-Hillary things because Muslims called Clinton a warmonger) Syria? Yemen? Drones? Tuesday meetings? Go to Yemen or Libya and hang out with some women and ask them what they think about Secretary Clinton. Go to Iraq and talk to the mothers of the 500,000+ children who died (the mothers that haven’t been killed yet) and ask them what they think of Bill and Hillary and Madeline “worth it” Albright.

    Look at any charts of income or wealth inequality over the past 25-45 years and see why people (all except the very elite) may not want a president who is tied to those neoliberal ideas and instead of denouncing them, said she’d put her husband on the economic team. (oh, and if NAFTA was worse for Mexicans than us — of course it was! We spread destruction around the globe, and Madeline Albright and Hillary Clinton were each critical to that machine — I’m still pondering why Latinos and Latinas might not go for Hillary as much as expected. Still thinking …)

    I guess liberals are going to continue defending neoliberalism and neoconservatism and corruption. The biggest promoter of imperialism is defended by so-called radicals?

    (oh, and do I have to say here that of course sexism played a role? It plays a role always when it comes to women in any situation when we’re competing with men. But to ignore her history and her position is crazy. And frankly to shut down women on the left who also have major problems with Hillary is already old.)

  • FakeFeminist

    Apparently California is thinking about it. (They already have more population than Canada! Wow.) Would be interesting to see a #calexit and why not a #minexit too, but from what I understand they would need to amend the constitution or outright rebel to make it happen.

  • OedipaMaas

    If there’s any silver lining to this maybe it’s that it’ll wake the left up to the fact that politics are real and not an intellectual exercise that you indulge in on Facebook once in awhile? As someone who was extremely pro-Bernie during the primaries I can say with confidence that for a lot of the people around me it was primarily about feeling like we were “part of something” and crowding around a personality (I still like Bernie! But most of the people slandering Hillary had very little knowledge of her actual policies). Maybe now people will finally get that our actions have consequences, that the media we produce has consequences, that fun feminism/neoliberalism/empty identity politics aren’t good enough. Probably not! But it’s all I can hope for.

  • Raysa_Lite

    I have been all over the web, reading about this mess. As dismal as it is, I can’t seem to stop.

    Anyway, I was reading a liberal feminist site that’s run by a male. The comments section is essentially run by 2 or 3 males that insure that everyone is feministing properly, and they will surely let you know if you are doing it wrong.

    In the comments, a poster said (and I am paraphrasing) that maybe Donald is not so bad because caitlin Jenner and milo yannapolis are “close to him”, and at least this can potentially be a win for Trans women and gay males.

    So great news to feminists! Take heart! After all, Donald is going to be ok for gay males! And males in dresses! ALL of the males are going to do ok! Such wonderful news for women. Amirite.

  • Yisheng Qingwa

    I am so sorry…

  • I have to say I now wonder how we ever believed even for a minute that America — a lethal imperialist nation, whose number one domestic policy is to ensure white men can wear pistols on their hips and assault weapons over their shoulders — whose pseudo-christians would shoot Jesus if they ever saw him on the street, who slaughtered aboriginals, made slavery the backbone of their wealth, destroyed much of central and south america for american gain — would ever have allowed a woman espousing progressive views to be president. It seems clear now that all those prominent Republicans who said they wouldn’t vote for Trump were manipulating the Clinton team into thinking the character and integrity counted. Of course it didn’t. Not in America. Those republicans all obviously voted Trump and no doubt intended to all the time. America is the land of the man-boy, pathetic little creatures afraid of both mommy and daddy, resorting again and again to violence to prove they’re “men”. And American women? The white ones threw women of colour under the bus, and told all the rapists, pornographers and pimps that yes, it’s okay to violate women. Too many American white women have been destroyed by patriarchy. But we already knew that, through their trumpeting of the “empowerment” of prostitution and porn, their giving up their rights so male-bodied people can have rights instead. Why are we surprised?

    • Anon

      You do realize that Europeans instituted slavery in the Americas long before the USA ever became a nation, right?

  • Tired feminist

    If my first contact with feminism had been with neoliberal “feminism”, I probably wouldn’t be a feminist either.

  • Yorick Paine

    Hi, I’m a white English man. Yay! Surely this is exactly what ‘they’ want. Lots of women hating men hating women. Yet another divide and rule tactic. We are never going to change this bullshit system if we all continue to find ways of blaming and hating each other. Love, peace and a lot of direct action.

    • Lucia Lola

      Yes, I am a woman who hates men who hate women. Why would you suggest I do otherwise? Unless you mean to push the idea I should turn the other cheek, of which I won’t.

      If your point is to state a divide and conquer approach is being utilised, then yes, I do agree that’s happening. Amongst women, not men AND women. That’s already in play and has been for a long, long time.

      Love and peace are great but I appreciate your last sentiment, which is a lot of direct action. I’ve been focusing on that for a good while now, and will continue to do so. Harder.

      Like someone already mentioned somewhere, it’s #notallmen but it sure is a lot of them. Being idealistic and not realistic is a place I don’t have the luxury of returning to. This is my world. Yours too, obviously.

      Thanks for your comment, though, I understand your perspective. I don’t share it, but I understand it.

  • Bunk Trimble

    Where did I say I support/voted for Trump? I didn’t. I’ve despised him since he began running. He empowers a lot of arrogant shitheads in our society that think they are superior. But you know what? Half his appeal came from his defiance of a society and internet culture that crucified people for their speech or artistic freedom, even when it wasn’t that offensive or antagonistic. He was the polar opposite: someone who literally didn’t give a shit if he offended people. He went out of his way to hurt people’s feelings a lot. People that were told they were racist/sexist, etc with very patient and rational views (aka easy prey for the outraged) who may not only have been attacked, but had (or were followers/fans of people who had) their reputations and livelihoods damaged or destroyed found someone who had a career despite his speech critics very very likable. As far as art/creativity, for instance, I remember this website sharing/defending a Jezebel (I think) article calling out the masculinity expressed in Judd Apatow and Seth Rogen films as contributing to ideology that lead to the Santa Barbara shooting. Guess what? Judd and Seth, both very liberal, are mourning the election result so, so much. The left has been massacring its own popular members/figureheads at a rate the right cannot match. The left is going to have to think long and hard the next few years about what ideas and speech it encourages/tolerates without criticism if it wants to regain footing. Allowing people, no matter who they are as long as they belong to a racial/gender/sexuality minority, to say whatever the fuck they want about a majority member or group no matter how abhorrent or downright destructive it is, without any criticism, because of a dichotomy and that fact alone, has largely helped alienate leftist viewers. I mean the lack of logic or pragmatism is right there:

    Person/people X believes person/people Y have more (or the monopoly) of privilege/power in society. Instead of encouraging discourse and civility in order to work toward an equilibrium, person/people X literally tell Y that they have no/negligible right or grounds to discuss the issue because they’ve had a bad experience with someone/people of that demographic. They do not condemn and sometimes downright condone an irrational, unproductive, violent view expressed toward the majority of person Y simply because the speaker of the view belongs to minority X. No room for bargaining, no room for discourse. So majority Y, the group that minority X believes have all the power, leaves EN MASSE, from the entire suite of ideas they identified with, since minority X’s particular version has become the mainstream dogma. They go to the side that does not discount them automatically. If you believe someone has a huge amount of power and influence based on their identity, it’s a good idea to not say their demographic has no right to speak. That creates reactionaries.

  • OedipaMaas

    lol i had the exact same thought

  • OedipaMaas

    edit: lol nvm that was harsh, i’m tired

  • Meghan Murphy

    Well, and the thing is that ‘white feminism’ does not equal to ‘white right wing women’…. The women who voted for Trump hate feminists.

    • Anon

      …or they are blinded by rhetoric and like the “trust me it will be fabulous” stuff and did not notice the lack of actual plan. Sloganeering won over substance. I also think Trump was (wrongly) viewed as some kind of political outsider.

  • Wren

    “So no not at all “superior” (that didnt even cross my mind, which is
    really said cause it says ppl view this as a match/game to gloat over
    afterward)”

    Well you seem to be gloating over our disaster, sooo???

  • Wren

    Yes, I guess I shoulda voted for Trump. I guess I’m really not against the patriarchy. Stupid me.

    • Cassandra

      Don’t you just love all this bullshit? Walls of text about how awful Hillary is. Well, you got your wish folks, we now have a raging orange asshole in office who’s going to probably have the chance to replace not one but TWO supreme court justices if you think about RBG’s health. Way to go! You showed her!!

  • Wren

    Obama represents white supremacy?? WTF is wrong with you??

    • M2378

      He isn’t standing up for Native Americans protesting DAPL, that’s for sure. What has he done to help the African American community? Obama promised hope and change but once elected decided to compromise with Republicans instead of fighting for the people like he pretended he would. What happened to no more wars? What about the drones that are killing innocent civilians in other countries?

      • Wire Bead

        I agree that Obama has not done as much as he promised for the African American community, but he did some good, working with Republicans, with criminal justice system reform, particularly with mandatory minimum drug sentences.

    • ohdear

      Represents: “To be entitled to act or speak for (someone), esp. in an official capacity.”

      If our system is white supremacy, and Obama is the highest power and/or figurehead in the system, then WTF would you call it? Or do you think our system isn’t white supremacist? Do you think he doesn’t represent it? Is he dismantling the system or serving it? What has he done re. schools, housing, incarceration, police shootings and brutality? The war on Africa? The war on non-whites around the globe?

      http://www.blackagendareport.com/content/war-white-supremacy

      Come on. (re your statement below) There are many more choices than Hillary or Trump! Don’t vote! Write in someone! Vote for another woman! There was one other woman on almost every state’s ballot and two or more other women on many ballots. Women who weren’t responsible for the literal deaths of millions of women and girls, not to mention boys and men. Women who aren’t propping up regimes like Saudi Arabia while destroying more moderate regimes in the area? How does “Hillary is terrible” = “Vote for Trump” except in Liberal minds?Liberalism and neoliberalism kills.

      It’s considered sexist to refuse to vote for a racist killer, because she’s a woman? Because she’s so ready to launch nukes, even first?

      (and if you’re wondering about the term “killer,” then look up the definition of “War crime,” and which is the most unique war crime. And look at her vote on Iraq. That’s separate from the times she was in on the Tuesday meetings, and all her other actions as Senator and Sec State. Separate from the million+ lives her husband cost, actions she includes on her own resume.)

      As I said elsewhere: yes, sexism and misogyny enabled a Trump (as did racism and xenophobia). But it is one, not the key, downfall, of Hillary.

      Anyway, I had been happy to find Meghan on Twitter, and this publication, but four or more years of this lesser evilism would be too much, and my posts haven’t been approved [even though I wasn’t the one cursing or shouting — just said I disagreed, and provided an actual argument] so I guess it’s mutual. Maybe you could all support Madeline Albright next time, since you don’t think a woman’s actions matter. Though actually I guess you all wouldn’t be opposed to her. “Years of experience!”

  • M2378

    “Americans are too stupid to vote”. Uh, are you aware that this is the first election where we didn’t have all the protections of the Voting Rights Act? Hundred less polling places in mostly Southern states. 5 hour waiting times at the polls. As has been pointed out, Hillary won the popular vote. We need to stop blaming ordinary people so much and focus on changing the broken system.

  • M2378

    Pretty sure most Bernie supporters voted for Hillary. The actually progressive ones who didn’t vote Hillary would’ve voted Green. And no, third parties aren’t to blame for what happened. Why shouldn’t people be angry about how corrupt the DNC is and how the primary absolutely wasn’t fair?

  • Topazthecat

    And I’m sure we can thank the horrible unjust mainstreaming of pornography for this.

  • Leo

    Ok, rather than responding to these points one by one, I’m just going to point out that you’re labouring under a misapprehension here – those are (mostly young) liberal feminists, not us. We’re radical feminists. Liberals shout at us too, frequently virulently. If we could do anything about them, we’d at least stop them yelling at us, but we can’t.

    Yes, I think their tactics suck and betray a fundamental cluelessness about human behaviour (people don’t like being shouted at, makes them defensive), but I can’t actually do anything about it (have you *tried* telling them to cut it out? It’s a great way to get shouted at some more), all I can do is try to argue for the cause in a better way – because the cause is what’s actually important here. I’m not going to be discouraged by a few naive young liberals (I’m only 29 myself, btw), let alone go off in a snit and ignore vulnerable people just because they got on my nerves. I’d have to not really care to be able to consider doing that.

    You get that ‘the right’ actually incorporates a range of views, right? And they don’t always actually agree or like each other that much? (ie. UKIP and the Conservatives, over here in the UK. And most UK Conservatives seem to regard US Republicans as totally bats – there’s been a fair bit of horror and dismay at Trump)
    It’s the same thing for the left (…actually we’d be even more known for ‘splitters’, lol, due to greater refusal to compromise probably).

    This does not however mean that we should be overlooking a decision to vote for someone absolutely glaringly racist and misogynistic for fear of ‘alienating’ potential allies. These people are not on our side, never were, and you’re right, they most likely weren’t going to be – which would be the case no matter how nicely we asked them to give a damn about women. Telling them it’s totally Ok for men to boast about assaulting women will not help us whatsoever – having principles and being part of a liberation movement does actually require you say firmly that some things are not acceptable, too (and the liberals aren’t always wrong there, either), that some will simply be against you and refuse to budge. The KKK endorsed Trump – should we be bargaining with them? I think not somehow, they are our political enemies, not potential allies. This is not about individuals, it’s about men, white people, white men, as a class. I’m white, I’d never in a zillion years have voted for Trump, and I’m British anyway so I couldn’t (and our racial politics are not the exact same situation as the US), but looking at those voting stats above, I ain’t going to whine when minorities talk about the election in the context of white supremacy, because it’s not actually all about me. ‘Not all white people are like that’ would not be helpful input to such a discussion (and would be deserving of being told ‘white people, shut up’) when it’s clear many are, that the system supports this, and that political class analysis isn’t meant to just be about individuals.

    Your assumption that no one would listen to them really just says more about you. You don’t have to agree with everything someone says or like their phrasing to see if they have a point or not, let alone to still care about causes such as anti-racism and feminism. Heck, like I just said, liberals are ostensibly on the same side as me and they still get on my nerves, I’m not sulking and going off to the far right because of it, that would be a truly pathetic response, especially to a bunch of daft kids who’re barely even doing anything (any student protesters worth their salt in the old days would’ve thrown a few more bricks and ripped up some paving, not just thrown a strop on twitter ffs).

    • Bunk Trimble

      Of course the right encompasses different views. I was specifically referring to the left because of their larger contribution and the fact feminism is a leftist ideology.

      Bargaining with KKK? Absolutely not. A lot of people support candidates, moderates and radicals alike on both sides. Governments, if not doing it themselves then allied with governments imposing Sharia (forcibly shrouding women, beheading and throwing LGBT people off buildings) supported Hillary Clinton.

      Blaming white men collectively for all bad in the world is something that helped Trump get elected, particularly among millennials (most active on social media). It is not only morally wrong, but it is unproductive and unrealistic. Why would you universally treat a demographic you believe have the monopoly of power/privilege/influence as racist misogynists who shouldn’t have a voice? No realism, no concession.

      I didn’t vote Trump. I’m not far right, or right at all. I will never be right wing. But in a culture where posts about killing whites, or castrating men, or raping white women, are tolerated easily on social media (not deleted even if massively shared) if it’s by a minority (race or gender) but mildly offensive posts by a majority result in bans, people start to identify with the side that doesn’t hate them for biological traits. There are more hidden/closet bigots on the right, but the left has more active, tolerated bigots.

      Thank you for a patient, constructive response. I have critiqued the fuck out of this website and its regular commenters over the past three years, on one account or another, but in the lat few days I’ve seen more patient opinions than on Facebook.

      • Leo

        Right, but what I’m saying is that the left incorporates different views too. Sometimes wildly. Sometimes they can’t stand each other – like I said we get yelled at by liberals too.

        Yes, but that’s not really the exact same as the KKK (who are in the US) directly endorsing a candidate who is himself personally saying racist things, and who then repeatedly refuses to immediately distance himself from them and their endorsement, is it? I wouldn’t actually in a zillion years have voted for Clinton either, mind, I’d even vote for our British Tory party (who I loathe) first. I thought the idea of voting Clinton was a liberal idea of ‘compromise’ that ultimately gets us nowhere, or worse. But not liking Clinton doesn’t mean I can see any valid reasons to vote for Trump that make his supporters above any criticism. Again, talking critically about white men, and white women’s role in this, isn’t meant to be about blaming individuals, it’s just about them as a class, as shown in the voting statistics. A white guy who voted for the Greens instead needn’t feel personally offended, it’s not about him. Generally this is understood in the context of the class system – even if I ranted ‘I hate the upper class’ no one here in the UK would think I meant it specifically personally. We do need ways to talk about oppressive systems. ‘I hate some of the upper class, but I’m sure others are perfectly nice really’ wouldn’t really make the same point.

        Have you seen the stuff the far right post on social media? It’s pretty blatant, they mean it more literally (the #killallwhitemen hashtag, while bloody stupid, wasn’t meant literally afaik), and they don’t get banned often either, especially not quickly. Social media just isn’t moderated much/at all.

        I think liberal ‘call out’ culture gives a misleading impression – there are specific reasons it’s effective, such as toeing the party line, and often even simply people following trends. I’ve (politely) called ’em out multiple times, they don’t actually listen to me (or us radical feminists in general), even when they are being straight-up bigoted – for instance, I’m fed up of them equating support for Trump, and being bigoted, literally with mental illness (if they use terms like crazy, mental, that doesn’t really mean the same but is simply a way to say they find it bizarre, it’s when they say specifically ‘Trump supporters are mentally ill’ or that ‘bigots are mentally ill’ -the irony- that I object on grounds of reinforcing stigma). Bigotry on the left isn’t necessarily tolerated, it’s just not actually easy to do anything about it, any more than it is when it’s on the right. After all, they’ve called me a bigot for daring to politely ask things like ‘Ok, but how are you defining the word ‘woman’?’, and that hasn’t actually stopped me from saying things they don’t like either (because while I did listen, I considered if they had a point and decided I didn’t really agree – that’s a fair response rather than instantly sulking about it, imo). That’s just people for you.

        The internet, is, well, the internet, y’know? While it’s totally possible to use it to have constructive discussions people don’t necessarily do that, they’re not always aiming to, they just want to vent. In the scheme of things, some twit on twitter isn’t all that politically relevant and shouldn’t be taken too seriously, let alone discredit a legitimate movement in any way. The mainstream media is partly to blame for their clickbaity ‘news’ reporting of social media storms in a teacup (which often didn’t even involve that many people), because they can’t be bothered or don’t know how to do any proper journalism.

  • Wren

    Yeah I’m waiting also for to hear some coverage regarding the roll back of the Voting Rights Act.

  • Meghan Murphy

    No kidding, eh. That is such a good point. To outsiders, ‘feminism’ looks completely ridiculous.

  • Alienigena

    “Whole communities are gutted by NAFTA and other free trade agreements”. So who do you want to blame? Other signatories to the agreement, like Canada or Mexico? Or your own politicians?

    As a Canadian I find it a bit much that Americans think they are the only ones negatively impacted by NAFTA. I was not in favour of NAFTA when it was first ratified. Canadians (as represented by the Council of Canadians, unions and others) had discrete objections to NAFTA (e.g water being treated as a tradeable good, http://www.globalresearch.ca/canada-losing-water-through-nafta/6859). Canadians are also concerned about growing Income inequality, disappearance of manufacturing jobs, greater reliance on resource extraction industries (e.g. oil and gas), changes to investment rules that disadvantage Canada (e.g. mean that companies that extract resources don’t have to process them in Canada before they are exported (meaning we lose another industry, resource processing).

    http://canadians.org/nafta

    • ohdear

      What is your point? Bill Clinton signed NAFTA. Both Clintons have supported all free trade agreements until Hillary got wish-washy about TPP because of Bernie (and Trump for that matter). The list of international deals where the US doesn’t screw other countries worse than its own workers is probably nonexistent.
      The discussion is about whether there are actual substantive reasons on addition to sexism for US voters to vehemently dislike Hillary. Support of Free Trade Agreements is one. She is precisely “one of your own politicians” to blame!! Possibly the most important after Bill on that one. This is one area where Trump’s *fake* policies actually are better, and to the left, of hers. She supported Bill in his policies, has used them as her “experience,” and has said that Bill would be a major part of her economic team. Actually, he said he’d step down from the foundation “if he has a role with her administration,” which frankly sounds like blackmail but that’s another issue. But the workers in the US know that their jobs are less secure than before, if they exist, that their share of the vast wealth of the US (that yes, is earned on the backs of the rest of the world) is going down, and their incomes are stagnant while the people Hillary gave $250,000 speeches to had skyrocketing wealth and incomes. It’s not rocket science why people hate Hillary on economics (aside from her being a woman which of course is a factor).

  • Alienigena

    More a response to’ rips into labels’ blaming the mythical ‘white woman’ for the fuck wittery that is US politics.You would have to be a bit of a whack job to suggest that ‘white women’ en masse are a monolithic category. Which apparently a lot of people commenting on this blog are, whack jobs that is. I can’t even agree with my own sister and mother on politics or the prevalence of male violence or most things. Why would I agree with other unrelated women? If African Americans aren’t a monolithic category and indigenous peoples aren’t why aren’t white women allowed to be a diverse category. I don’t get why women voted for Trump. False consciousness (see Marx’s writing), siding with the powerful (a popular behaviour, men do it too), insanity, stupidity, gullibility, ignorance, callousness (if a man treats me fine, I don’t care how he treats other women), etc. Probably as many reasons (likely wrong-headed) as there are white women.

    • Bleeps3

      I found this article about possible reasons women may have voted for Trump interesting:

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2016/11/11/one-psychologists-theory-about-why-so-many-women-voted-for-trump/

      I do think there’s an element of truth to the idea that the Republicans are the ‘daddy’ party and the Dems the ‘mommy’ party. So it often doesn’t come down to policy (partially because we in the U.S. do not talk about it) but who was the good one in your youth, mom or dad. Dad just making the decisions, without us kids having to do all the thinky-thinky, seems to be some of what people were drawn to, IME.

  • Ronnie Ray

    The people I’ve been talking to tended to be pretty critical of Hillary during
    the election, but I’ve noticed a marked difference in how women and men
    are reacting after the fact. Most lefty women, even those who didn’t
    support her at all, are empathetic towards her and pained by her
    humiliating and sexist defeat. The lefty men rail Trump but at the
    same time are gleeful to see Hillary brought low. I’ve heard men make
    comments like, “I’m no fan of Trump, but at least we get to see that
    bitch humiliated.” What an exciting time to be male.

    • Melanie

      Yes I noticed that. It’s like porn to them.

  • Alienigena

    Well I am a white woman and have never voted for a conservative politician in my province or nation. Now you expect me to know what goes on in the heads of other ‘white’ women? I am not a mind reader or a random speculator. I can make some guesses. Maybe an equally good question is why woc stayed home. Listen, I don’t know why women who display symptoms of physical bravery (climbing mountains, big ones, dangerous ones) or who compete in iron men competitions can’t tell men off (when appropriate). It’s like that physical bravery doesn’t translate into emotional or spiritual bravery, into the guts needed to tell a dick he is a dick and to push back. I don’t know that I am particularly physically brave (I have climbed mountains, via mountain passes, and completed a few ridge walks) but I am willing to talk back to men in the street who randomly insult and threaten me. The women in my home growing up did not act very empowered, so I didn’t have any examples of that kind of bravery. I guess knowing that my father could have killed or permanently injured me as an infant (apparently he hit my quite hard in face/head region because I was crying in my crib too loudly or too long (according to my mother)) has made me cavalier or maybe a bit stupid and belligerent, ’cause I confront men, not as much as I should, but I do.

  • Peppercorn

    I’m so tired of the sanctimonious opeds sprouting up everywhere admonishing liberals for “forgetting about the white working class”. First of all, a majority of the poor are poc and the average income of Clinton’s voters was lower that the average income of Trump’s. Second, job insecurity, globalization, and the elitism of the left didn’t make these people racist. They were always racist.
    Historically it was the white rural/working class that pushed for the appropriation of indigenous land, that hunted and lynched immigrant workers to protect their “union rights”, that elevated itself from the very bottom of the hierarchy at the expense of slaves. I don’t think there is any solidarity to draw on or any bridges to build, because it does not, nor has it ever, suited the interests of the white working class to increase the rights of the rest of us.
    They don’t want to raise wages for everyone, they don’t want to tax the wealthy, they don’t want to fight for the right to organize, they don’t want to regulate banking and industry, they don’t want to subsidize insurance for other workers. They just want “their” well-paid masculine manufacturing jobs back – the sort that can support them in the style to which they believe they are entitled. Humiliating, exploitative service jobs are necessary and fine as long as they are held by the people who’ve always held them – women and poc. This is one of the reasons there has never been a strong labor movement in the US.

    • Cassandra

      This is a pretty astute comment.

  • Peppercorn

    Thanks so much for your virtue-signaling protest vote. I guess you’re not personally affected by having a president who wants to end sanctuary cities, start immediate mass round-ups and deportations, and build that god-forsaken wall – nor the inevitable wave of xenophobic hate-crimes that will result from the unleashing of Trump’s army of fools. Because emails! Iraq! Honduras! Syria!
    Yes, we all know. What has the media of the left been doing over the past year other than obsessively picking over Hillary’s dirty laundry? Indeed, Hillary is just another soulless technocrat in the neoliberal imperialist machine. But people love to pretend she’s uniquely culpable when the truth is Obama could have chosen literally anybody else as SoS and the decisions made would still have been the same. American foreign policy objectives and methods have been essentially consistent for 50 years, regardless of party affiliation or the degree of freedom extended to the domestic public. The security apparatus and the global capital it protects are already so entrenched that a single leader or administration cannot make any significant, lasting difference.
    What can and will happen, though, is a upsurge in violence and suppression targeting the vulnerable in the country, carried out by all of trigger-happy racists that have crawled out of the woodwork.

    • polina

      Iraq! Honduras! Syria! Who cares about people dying right? Hillary Clinton was not just a bystander there, or in Libya! She was personally responsible! You really really don’t give a shit, do you?

      • Bleeps3

        You know what’s not going to change it, long-term? More defunding of schools/education, more kids going to shitty schools without enough to eat so they can’t pay attention to their shitty educations, more people working so much they can’t pay attention to the news, let alone foreign policy, the gutting of Social Security, TrumpCare, more protest/voter suppression (which is guaranteed), more entrenchment of ReichWing media, etc. etc.

        You know what’s really not going to help? Unchecked climate change — regional conflicts are likely to skyrocket due to desertification alone, there will be mass migration which will empower right-wing governments all over, war over disappearing resources… And you can sit back, and think, good, the population will decline (just like the 1%ers do) but you can’t claim some kind of moral superiority because FOREIGN POLICY! WAR!

      • Anon

        As far as Libya (Benghazi) goes, it was the Republicans who cut funding to protect our embassies overseas. That wasn’t H Clinton; it was the Republicans! Please inform yourself.

  • Tired feminist

    I know. I’m from Brazil. Your country just supported (and possibly participated in) a coup d’état in mine.

    Still, this won’t be changed on election day.

    I respect your opinion though.

  • melissa

    Yea, the worst thing is, its because of these people, the tumblrinas, that anti-feminists(and people harboring some genuinely regressive, dangerous ideas) come off to the general public as the reasonable ones, the downtrodden under dogs.

    Reminds me of the incident with the college professor Jordan B Peterson in Ontario(i think FC mentioned this a little while back too), that was fighting against being forced to use made up pronouns from trans people.Now obviously on that issue he was perfectly sensible and articulate, going against the bullying by the trans cult. But he also just so happened to be strongly anti-feminist(and no, not just the “third wave”) an apologist for biblical nonsense and proponent of traditional gender roles supported by pseudo scientific, evo psych bs.Everything he ever said about gender and feminism seems to almost come from some MRA/conservative libertarian checklist.Some of these leftists have gotten so unreasonable that this is the kind of people that are now being heralded as the voice of reason, as free speech martyrs. Its because of the antics from these leftist in college campuses and the mainstream, that its gotten harder and harder to challenge someones backwards, misogynistic worldview without being lumped in with some gender fluid ,pink haired otherkin.

    It seems there’s multiple parts to this for radical feminists 1) the oversensitive loons on the left and their incoherent babble 2))conservatives repackaging, peddle their backwards anti-feminist nonsense while complaining about he left 3)seemingly “rational” porn loving,dude bros, that like to pretend there’s no misogyny or sees little need for feminism or is only in favor of faux feminist garbage 4) the general public that recognizes the silliness on the left, only ever gets exposed to a libfem version of feminism and either knows little about or think of “radical” feminism as some extreme or a part of the madness that’s taking place.

    In short, its just quite the shit show for us right now. I’m not sure how to untangle this mess.

  • Cassandra

    Apropos to nothing and yet everything, this is Netflix’s current home page. This is the image they chose to call attention to a new series. I bet you anything a male chose it and a male approved it. FUCKING PATRIARCHY.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/31ae75bf96e2177cb2917df7fa7e8d398c3152056b1bbc8d29a0dce2b9c3f43b.png

  • anne

    Nope, they are men (as in biological males) who choose to socialise as women. Their performative ‘womanhood’ has absolutely nothing in common with actual women (as in biological females), their issues and lived experience. This isn’t inherently bad, until male to trans people start imposing their gender delusions on others, and start forcing us, in an aggressivelly entitled way, to give up our hard won rights and protections in order to accommodate their fetishes. And transing of children is child abuse, promoted by the trans lobby, so this is altogether more sinister than your, or anyone’s preferred pronouns and ‘inner feelings of gender’.

    • Pat Jones

      Hi Anne. I’m really sorry that the trans movement has promoted these ideas. Please know that we aren’t all as you describe. Wishing you well.

      • anne

        Hey Pat, thank you for saying so, and I am sorry too. I am the first person to not assume collective guilt, and I know that most transwomen/ MTT people aren’t represented by the ‘official’ trans movement. But because the activism that is passed under ‘trans rights’ has been so damaging to women and girls, and abuse of women by the lobby so violent, they end up being the ones equated with ‘trans’ in these conversations…Wishing you all the best.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yes, sorry it’s been so slow lately… We’ve had a super high volume of comments lately and I’m doing it all myself…. May be time to get some help in here… Thanks for your patience.

    • ohdear

      Sorry for being testy. There’s also something about the way that Disqus interacts with this site. If I click on my notifications for ohdear, and go that route, then not everything shows up, so things I had written the day before weren’t there, but I saw that there were many other new comments in general. But finally I came straight here and they appeared. It’s strange, but Disqus’ issue. I do know you’re on your own and moderating is a pain.

      • Meghan Murphy

        No worries! Sorry for the trouble.

  • Raysa_Lite

    They are males that embrace feminine gender norms. That’s still a male. And gender norms hurt women.

    They can wear whatever they want. But if you are born with a penis, then you are still a male.

  • Just Passing Through

    He’s a dingleberry on the dingleberry’s dingleberry.

  • melissa

    ” Unbelievable that a university has a professor of “Trans studies” that preaches “Biology does not exist”. ”

    Lmao. Oh god that boggled my mind.That was incredibly entertaining.I burst out laughing when the host read out “gender blender” as an identity.

    Glad he took these people on, despite of what the rest of his worldview entails. Feminists rarely get to do this without being shut down, de-platformed, guilt tripped and blackmailed into silence.It can feel pretty alienating and hopeless.And it was frustrating seeing that side trying to seem feminist/progressive while spouting insane horse shit like that.So, yea more people that expose this bs from whichever side of the political spectrum the better.Some things I’m happy to tackle issue by issue.

  • ohdear

    I said, “You are in Canada, and the middle class liberals have healthcare at work, but millions of us received outrageous estimates of our new health insurance premiums and deductibles a few weeks ago…” In other words, you are in Canada so you didn’t receive the notices in October and Nov. 1 about the 25% increase, and maybe you didn’t even realize they came practically on election day. Why do you feel the need to personally criticize me for talking about issues with your imperial candidate? I am not discussing Canadian healthcare. Did you see any mention by me of how it works, or about Canadians? So I’d say you’re the one who is snarky. However, re. the “who you vote for,” some of us are not voting for neoliberalism, but we’re called women-haters. But, if you’re going to say I don’t have a clue about Canada, then maybe you don’t have a clue about our ruling class. You certainly didn’t hear the ads on the radio for Clinton, and see her terrible campaign in action, etc.

    Ok, now you think the President of the US is the same league as being a billionaire? Of course billionaires have all sorts of power, but please. And Hillary got her power from him. So truly feminist of her.

  • ohdear

    Thanks, I’ll read them, but I’ve seen the conservative and liberal perspectives for years. Looking for the “radical” in “radical feminist.” And voting for Hillary is not radical. Sorry.

  • ohdear

    Yes, this is true. Millions fewer voters than 2012. Wouldn’t vote for the bigot or the neoliberal neoconservative

  • MJ

    Solidarity, lk. Great post.

  • ohdear

    I agreed with some of what you said, and appreciated the great comment until last few sentences, since I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for her. If a mass murderer (well, she is one, but I mean the kind that is typically defined as a mass murderer) was abused as a child, I’d feel some sort of sympathy, but I would think about his victims. Most women who face misogyny don’t go on to destroy millions of lives. Plus she was pretty terrible from pretty early on, even in Arkansas.

    The point about when she was first lady and the initial criticisms are spot on, and there was also the sexist criticism of Chelsea’s looks that a boy would never have gotten. But none of that changes who Hillary is, and all the other reasons that rightists and leftists and others had to dislike her.

    I was so heartbroken on election day. If you had told me in 1984 when Ferraro was on the ballot as VP (my first presidential election and I got to vote for and work for, a woman and against Reagan), that no woman would even be VP by 2016, and that it wouldn’t be until 2016 that a woman was on the ballot for president, I would have been so shocked and sad. If you had told me it would be a Democrat and I wouldn’t vote for her, I wouldn’t have believed you. One of the many reasons election day was a mournful day for me personally. I don’t think that not listening to why so many of us — feminist women who have waited so long for that day — didn’t vote for Hillary is too helpful. And since I am not the idealist I was, and don’t believe in supporting the murderous, catastrophic system, I’ll never have that fairy tale. Oh well. I also didn’t have a bomb blasting outside (or onto) my home on Tuesday, so really my fairy tale means less than nothing.

  • MJ

    Thank you, but we won’t. Most women here are complicit in their own oppression due to religion and internal sexism. They would never go on strike for fear of their men being mad at them or their church disapproving.

  • ohdear

    It makes my brain hurt that people think “No Clinton” is equal to “Yes Trump.” Believe it or not, there were other options*. The liberals won’t tell you that, though.

    *Not voting, writing in, voting for another candidate on a ballot, including one of two different women (Stein or La Riva. Yes, Gloria La Riva, the feminist socialist. Yes, all these “socialist radical feminists” here criticizing socialist feminists who voted for a feminist socialist. That makes my head hurt as well. [I’m not a socialist and chose the “not voting]”)

  • ohdear

    Thanks.

  • Meghan Murphy

    <3 <3

  • ohdear

    1) “So women and minorities can perish in the chaos and violence of a disintegrating society???” Hmm, sounds like Libya. Sounds like Syria. Sounds like Haiti. Sounds like Honduras. And those are only the ones that could be described in those terms, and not all the other countries Hillary’s bloody hands have been in.

    2) The planet is not going to survive empire! Whether someone publicly says climate change is real or not, and whether they appoint lunatics or “Science” people, the atmosphere doesn’t care. Carbon is carbon. And global warming is just one environmental disaster that is coming our way. Then there are nukes and wars, etc. Empire must end. It *will* end, whether we like it or not. We can try to make it less painful, and propping it up and pretending that a US election makes any significant difference for the 7 billion on the planet, isn’t the way to do it.

  • Laurie conrad

    I call it auto-oppression. When we are so ensconced, indoctrinated by the system of misogyny that we do not see our own participation, and/or support of it. We accept it. Then we begin to shun our female friends who do not accept it. There is an article on this that shows how blind we are to it and that almost every female, including those that call themselves feminists and would never vote for Trump, participate in some of the worst misogyny and they too shun their female friends who refuse to participate. To overcome misogyny all of us must refuse to participate. The brain washing is deep. But I overcame it and I hope your mind is open enough to overcome it too. https://crueltyfreeeating.com/2016/01/22/farming-animals-feminism/

  • ohdear

    Oh come on. Not supporting the dynasty candidate is misogyny?

    Corruption: steering money from local Dems to her campaign, purposefully trying to avoid FOIA requests by having her own server, paying for Chelsea’s wedding with Foundation Funds, Pay to play schemes that are technically legal, but are still “corrupt.” Those are just three that have come to light recently. There is discussion of issues from Arkansas forward easily accessible for the engaged voter.

    Facts about her warmongering are so easily noticeable to the casual observer, and should be basic knowledge to any voter, that I’m not even sure who has the responsibility here to research, you or rosearan, but since I don’t see a response from her (I wonder why?) , here are some details. Long, but that’s what you asked for. “Details” But far from complete. However, if anyone can be in 2016 and not acknowledge that Hillary is a warmonger (even if you have decided to nevertheless vote for her), I’m not sure what more details, and more evidence, will do for you, or if you will see what’s on the screen.

    1) You’re calling a feminist a misogynist based on a word you don’t even understand. Classy. And Feminist, I’m sure. The definition of warmonger: “a sovereign or political leader or activist who encourages or advocates aggression or warfare toward other nations or groups.” It is anyone who pushes for war actively
    2) Declaring war is a civilian power in the US (Obama is President *and* Commander in Chief of the military). But nevertheless, it isn’t even The President who declares war according to the constitution (though every recent president has broken this by using technicalities). Congress does. And in the Senate, Hillary Rodham Clinton voted for the Iraq war. This was based on lies that were easily evident, and she didn’t do *any* diligence. In any case, even if she had done diligence, it’s her country she’s representing. Therefore, she was responsible, along with her colleagues, for the war. An unjustly waged war, which is a war crime. And, according to Nuremberg conventions, unprovoked aggression is a special kind of war crime, because each and every war crime committed by any US force as part of that aggression is considered part of the original war crime. Therefore, according to long-held international law, each death, each instance of torture, each RAPE by “our” servicemen is on her head.
    3) She voted for the war in Afghanistan.
    4) She used her resume as first lady to run for Senate then at hearings for SecState then to run as president. She was a powerful “Activist” or “ally” in the wars that her husband waged, and often pushed for military action even when his military advisers didn’t want to.

    One example (from https://newrepublic.com/article/64828/hillarys-war): “In March 1999, for instance, as Slobodan Milosevic’s Serbian forces conducted a rising campaign of ethnic cleansing against Kosovar Albanians, her husband considered a series of airstrikes to stop the killing. His generals were nearly unanimous in opposition: Bombing wouldn’t work, they said, and, in any case, military engagement wasn’t worth the risk of American casualties. Russian opposition also guaranteed a lack of U.N. sanction for the mission; any military action would have to be a NATO operation of debatable international legitimacy. Hillary didn’t care. As she later explained to Talk magazine, while on a trip in North Africa she phoned her husband in Washington and pleaded with him to unleash the military. “I urged him to bomb,” she said. “You cannot let this go on at the end of a century that has seen the major holocaust of our time. What do we have NATO for if not to defend our way of life?”

    5,6,… ) Libya, Syria, Iraq (still) it is universally reported that she has pushed Obama for more intervention. She openly says she would go for a NFZ in Syria. She says that she would use bombs to fight cyberterrorism, and she wouldn’t rule out a nuclear first strike.

    Some of that is here (from http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/01/14/face-it-a-vote-for-hillary-clinton-is-a-vote-for-war.html) :

    “As secretary of state, she rarely missed an opportunity to back more and bigger interventions. “Clinton backed a bold escalation of the Afghanistan war,” wrote Michael Crowley in Time in 2014. “She pressed Obama to arm the Syrian rebels, and later endorsed air strikes against the Assad regime. She backed intervention in Libya, and her State Department helped enable Obama’s expansion of lethal drone strikes. In fact, Clinton may have been the administration’s most reliable advocate for military action.” That’s exactly the reason why Republican John “Bomb, Bomb, Bomb, Bomb, Bomb Iran” McCain joked to The New Republic that it would be a “tough choice” for him if the presidency came down to Clinton or the libertarian-leaning dove Rand Paul. “We came, we saw, he died,” Clinton herself joked to CBS News after the death of Muammar Gaddafi in the wake of bombing runs joined by the United States. Even after Libya was plunged into utter chaos and has become a “safe haven” for ISIS, Clinton still calls our intervention there “smart power at its best.” Which raises the question: What could dumb power possibly look like?

    As a candidate for the 2016 Democratic nomination, Clinton has softened her bellicose rhetoric ever so slightly as she tacks left to co-opt Bernie Sanders’s left-leaning, non-interventionist support (the former “senator from Wall Street” is doing the same on economic issues, repudiating trade deals and other pro-market policies she long supported). As Salon noted, she supported the Iran deal only after it became clear that congressional critics wouldn’t be able to stop it, but “she talked like somebody ready to start dropping bombs.” Indeed, she remains a hawk who “goes beyond President Obama in plans to defeat ISIS,” as The New York Times puts it. “Our goal is not to deter or contain ISIS,” she said in November when calling for a no-fly zone in Syria, more and bigger bombing runs, and most worryingly of all, more “special operations troops” in the Middle East to train local forces. Like Marco Rubio, who erroneously claims that Islamic jihad represents a “civilizational struggle” akin to the Cold War battle between communism and free enterprise, Clinton says that the United States “must lead the world to meet this threat.”

    Among other things, that means leaving troops in Afghanistan after an already-delayed withdrawal because being the indispensable nation means never having to say you’re sorry. “We have invested a lot of blood and a lot of treasure in trying to help that country and we can’t afford for it to become an outpost of the Taliban and [ISIS] one more time, threatening us, threatening the larger world,” Clinton has said. Perhaps the second 14-year engagement will turn the tide.

    Unsurprisingly, Secretary Clinton also pushed for keeping troops in Iraq as the elected government there insisted we leave. Clinton—and hawks in either party—never ask why a decade or more wasn’t enough to create “secure, stable, and self-reliant” situations. And what such failures say about the wisdom of the missions in the first place.”

    7? 8? ..)Russia. She uses warmongering language with Russia, another nuclear power.

    9? ..) Yemen I discussed in another comment, as I also discussed her support for the drone program, which to any decent person isn’t “war,” but to the neocons is a “war” on terror.

    Infinity)
    Another link. http://swampland.time.com/2014/01/14/hillary-clintons-unapologetically-hawkish-record-faces-2016-test/

    More: http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/hillary_clintons_foreign_policy_resume_what_the_record_shows_20160505

    From the Wa Post: “The speech, while repeating Clinton’s frequent criticisms that Trump’s populist foreign policy ideas are dangerous and unworkable, went further in establishing her own position as an internationalist who is to his political right on the issue of overseas engagement.
    Clinton sought to play down her reputation as a hawk during the Democratic primary, when rival Sen. Bernie Sanders (Vt.) …
    The former secretary of state’s foreign policy experience and support for traditional national security tenets are now seen as a general election asset she is using to reassure moderate voters and attract Republican support.

    And of course these wars have consequences. Deaths. Millions of deaths. Only a misogynist would hesitate to vote for millions of deaths.

    Oh, and it’s not just in the face of Trump that Hillary has neocon support. Back in 2008, conservative Republican Bruce Bartlett believed that the Democrats would ultimately win, so they should decide who to go for when they abandoned their candidate:
    (sounds pretty omniscient actually)
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/republicans-for-hillary/
    “To right-wingers willing to look beneath what probably sounds to them like the same identical views of the Democratic candidates, it is pretty clear that Hillary Clinton is the most conservative.”

  • Meghan Murphy

    No they do not. They can’t and won’t even try to relate to the grief in Hillary’s loss. I’m honestly surprised at how much it’s affected me over here. I still feel sick and devastated. I feel for her personally so much and feel devastated over the loss of what could have been America’s first female president. I feel choked up even writing this. I had no idea I would feel so emotional about all this.

  • Wren

    FYI he’s already back pedaling on his promises. I don’t think it’s going away completely, but I’m not really sure what’s going on. Neither does Trump or our government, apparently.

  • ohdear

    “you’re here to convince us of your feminist expertise??” No.

    I have paid attention to Hillary Clinton and her actions and policies and words for 32 years. From when she was in Arkansas. Policies and actions that, as I have repeated ad nauseum have been responsible for death, destruction, and rape. Why would I want to spend 2 years listening to her campaign spin? How would her record change retroactively? Or, does “pay attention to the campaign” for you mean reading analysis of what some oh-so-smart feminist or other liberal says? Yes, I’ve read the liberal BS of the campaign for two years, and I read about her campaign more in-depth in 2008. Like I said, your message is clear (and I heard you the first time): if you’re against Hillary, and against murder, killing ,and rape etc. that the empire represents, if it’s done by a woman, don’t speak. As usual, oh-so-feminist. Well I’ve now decided I don’t want the label of whatever a majority of “feminists” here think it means.

    Let me tell you that a lot of what I’ve read in the comments here is totally false. Provably false. I’m not talking feminism, I’m talking politics and campaigning and US history and Hillary Clinton’s record and government. Things I happen to have a fair amount of expertise in, but you don’t need much to counter the level seen here. You have women calling other women misogynist for calling Hillary a warmonger without links. Without links? Ha ha ha.

    You have the author saying this is the first time we could vote for a woman. What she meant was, the first time in the general election we could vote for a woman from one of the two most patriarchal organizations to ever exist, since there have been close to a dozen third party candidates in the generals and even more in the primaries.

    And on and on from the article through the comments. And false claims or misinformation wouldn’t be so bad if it weren’t couched in “you’re a misogynist,” or “the only reason to dislike Hillary is if you hate women,” or “WTF!” or “you have a male body so you don’t know” (umm, no I’m a woman with a uterus and vagina that I was born with) or “you’re discredited,” etc. If “not paying attention” to rhetoric discredits me, then I’d say that totally false understandings of how US government works and things Hillary actually said and did seems to be “discrediting” as well. Ironically, I started following this site when I saw the link to the critique of the Glamour article with the transwoman who had a test for whether women were “real feminists.” And little did I know that this idea of a test based on ridiculous criteria was actually so rampant here. Absolutely incredible.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Right on, sister. Much love to you.

  • ohdear

    I don’t really understand your question. I am against empire out of compassion for people and the planet.*

    But I am saying it will end anyway, whether I like it or not, so that is another reason to try to take it down purposefully, thinking about trying to lessen the destruction that will come from its downfall.

    *Are you asking me why I think it is terrible for people in the planet? If so, that’s not clear. And if so, at this point if you’re truly interested in knowing why someone might think that, I will give you some links.

  • ohdear

    I have no idea what you’re talking about. Each time I or any other woman here disagrees and/or even points to actual facts, there are a few women here, and you are one, who attack us, calling us people with penises, calling us misogynists, etc. I make a comment and you say WTF are you talking about and whatever insult and mischaracterize what I say without an argument /discussion except to malign me. I say I didn’t pay attention to *the campaign* — i.e., the exact speeches and rhetoric — and you say I’m here to convince you of feminist expertise, and blah blah. That was a comment just about the campaign. Look at what the campaign staff says — similar things! Why do you have to get offensive about anything that isn’t a 100% positive spin about Hillary and also her campaign? I’m not trying to convince anyone of feminist expertise. I am against the idea of people calling other feminists women-haters and misogynists based on the support or lack of support of someone who has held the positions she has.

    And I wasn’t here to kick anyone. Like I said to your last caustic comment, I came to this site originally for solidarity myself. I came to this site because I originally saw Meghan’s voice as so important, but this issue is apparently a deal breaker all around. I came in response specifically to this article to say, wait, I disagree, and as some people seemed young and/or not American, thought I’d share some history. So they’d know that yes, an unacceptable chunk of people here and everywhere DO hate women, but maybe it’s actually not so depressing as you think, and has a lot to do with many factors over the past 30 years for which both Clintons are blamed, as well as the lesser-evilism and political system here, etc., and Hillary isn’t someone to mourn, and here’s why. And, it’s important to know the causes for the next fight. And you immediately kicked *me.* Even when I was just trying to give factual information. And like I say, others started kicking *anyone* (with “misogynist” etc) who didn’t think that any non-woman-hater should have supported Hillary. Or for saying that Hillary promotes war and military response, when every single article you can find anywhere from 1996 to now on that topic talks about the fact that *she herself* has promoted herself as a hawk except during the 2016 primaries.

    And yes, I do think it’s important to think about people in the rest of the world — women in Saudia Arabia let’s say, who suffer under US influence much more than we do — instead of just feeling bad for ourselves; though you have no idea the extent to which I am absolutely not enjoying myself.

    However, I do apologize to Wire Bead for the tone of my response above which didn’t match her reply to me. I still don’t think it compares to what I’ve seen to anyone who says anything against Hillary, and she wasn’t really responding to what I said, but that’s not an excuse.

    I told you elsewhere, I got your message loud and clear about opposing voices and to shut it down and I will, unless I notice a response directed at me. It seems like this article has pretty much fizzled out, so you will be spared.

  • melissa

    “I’m happy the gender squad is starting to piss off the men. They’ve been
    actively avoiding men for years and going solely after females who
    refuse to bend to the cult.”

    Yup, glad this happened too.Although this is the case for trans people like these , but they don’t really challenge the trans ideology as a whole, or trans MRAs(Thyreme Meyers, for instance the trans women that was on the program with Peterson, that wasn’t nearly as loonie and demanding, but rabidly anti-feminist, self proclaimed men’s rights activist and buys into the whole “lady brain”/”man brain” deterministic bs. This kind of trans people on the other hand they are perfectly happy allies with.I believe Peterson had Meyers on his YT channel as well.).But, oh well, its still something. Reining in and dismantling the kind of loons that’s gone this far to deny material reality is still a big fucking deal i’d say.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I can’t watch that clip in Canada 🙁 DISCRIMINATION!

    (I will see if I can find it elsewhere)

    • Morag999

      Canadophobes!

      • Meghan Murphy

        I’m dead.

        • Morag999

          Indeed. Copyright laws are violence.

  • Morag999

    I know, I know, but I just keep forgetting, because it’s such a tricky concept … That females are oppressed because their thoughts and feelings are made of sugar and spice and a deep longing to be crippled by fabulous shoes. Thank you for calling me out, Cassandra. I need to do more learnin’.

    (Snort).

  • Anon

    The problem is that most people who would ordinarily vote for a D President chose to sit this one out. Participation from registered Ds was extremely low! When Democrats stay home, Republicans win!

  • Anon

    …and it is a great point. I agree.

  • Anon

    Plenty of people still come to the USA to escape prosecution and oppression. I am crestfallen about this election as well, but this too shall pass. The USA clearly has its problems, but so does every other country, and frankly, most countries are far worse. I should know. I travel widely, and have been to literally every world region except Antarctica. Life in America is very easy compared to life in many poorer countries, even with this bad, sexist joke as President. Let’s make sure people likely to vote D actually go out and vote next time. It would also be nice to get rid of the Electoral College.

  • Anon

    Don’t lump all of “middle America” together. My Midwestern state, IL is even brighter blue than some states on the coast. My state also had the 1st company that always paid black people wages equal to whites (the Pullman company in the late 1800s / early 1900s.)

    • Cassandra

      Okay.

  • Anon

    Absolutely true that blacks are more aware of racism than women are of sexism. All of the commentary about whether or not the USA “could” elect a black man as President, and radio silence on whether or not they “could” elect a woman. Perhaps it was obvious that the answer is still no. Also, many young people don’t realize that every black man in the USA could vote 50 yrs before ANY woman could vote — even white women! There are Constitutional protections for race, but there is no ERA. Discrimination against women is so ubiquitous, all over the world, that it is invisible.

  • Anon

    Misogyny and rape are not exclusive to the USA. Patriarchy is a GLOBAL institution. There is no escape.

  • Anon

    “Transwomen” have XY chromosomes, penises and testicles. They are male. Go study biology and A&P.

  • Anon

    What happened, is that people (including women) who leaned Clinton, stayed home, and this election had one of the lowest participation rates in modern history. When Ds stay home, Rs win. Simple!

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yeah, a lot of middle and upper class older white women voted for Trump.

    • AFR-auth

      It was the poor whites in general that voted for trump.

      • Meghan Murphy

        A lot of poor whites did vote for Trump, but it appears as though the majority of his supporters were still middle and upper class white people (mostly men). http://edition.cnn.com/election/results/exit-polls

        What is your argument, exactly?

    • Cassandra

      “…but in general, under capitalism, class mobility is myth. People who own property, wealth, the means of production keep it.”

      Don’t know what it’s going to take for many more Americans to realize this.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Ah ok. Yes, I do agree that there is far too much pontificating on the left that is not always (or even often) in touch with people’s realities. We learned that the hard way, this election.

    All that said, I don’t entirely blame the left. This is how neoliberalism works. This is what American culture/politics teaches people — that they can succeed if they work hard enough, that they are responsible for themselves and no one else, etc. It also teaches them — especially white men — that they are entitled to have whatever they can get.

    The left isn’t only so weak in the US because the left failed (though it had failed), but because it was destroyed by neoliberal and right wing politicians and through corporatism.

  • Bleeps3

    If Hillary had lost the primaries, and Bernie had won, but lost the election to Trump, how would you feel if Hillary supporters felt the need, RIGHT AFTER he lost, to come at you and tell you why Bernie sucked so bad, even against Trump?

    Would you have liked it if Hillary supporters had gotten on board with Bernie, after he became the nominee? For the good of the planet/people? How would you feel if they spent immense amounts of energy denigrating Bernie rather than accepting his win as the nominee and working to make that work?

    Again, I really did support both, when they were both options. I donated to both, the same amount. I actually phone-banked for Bernie, and not Hillary. And there were real, valid reasons why people chose Hillary over him, his temperament being one of them. We really, in objective, measurable reality, can only guess how Bernie would have fared in this election, and the people who have come to a different conclusion about him aren’t necessarily people who disagree with you politically, or people who were inherently wrong or blinded.

  • Bleeps3

    I hear that you don’t like Hillary Clinton. It has been heard.

  • Wren

    OMG I hate him but that sketch is fantastic!! Ugh I wonder if it coulda worked 🙁

    • melissa

      lol yeah.

  • Wren

    If this is so, then it also correlates with the legal extension of civil rights. I don’t think this is a coincidence, but I don’t have the brain power to examine it tonight.

  • Wren

    Pretty sure the tens of millions who voted for Trump didn’t know or care about any of this. They voted for him because he gave them permission to abandon their efforts to be decent human beings. That’s all.

    You, however, clearly voted for someone other than Clinton, or didn’t vote at all. I am so done with hearing any of this. It did nothing to help people I care about or anyone other than worst humans walking the earth.

  • Cynthia Cooper

    I voted for Jill Stein. I didn’t vote for Trump but I completely understand why Hillary lost. It doesn’t mean America hates women. Lots of Americans hated a specific woman named Hillary Clinton. And with good reason.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Do you also hate Obama?

    • Atheist

      Oh look a brogressive posting under a female name.

      Spare me your excuses. You just helped embolden the entirety of white nationalism and the misogyny that accompanies it. You know that, and you’ve come here to gloat.

      You are despicable beyond words.

      • Cynthia Cooper

        My sweet husband and I both find this bizarre. He also did not vote for the tangerine vulgarian. we suggest you adopt a shelter dog. Fur babies are great therapy. Worked for us. Cheers 😉

        • Meghan Murphy

          You are a dude. Fuck off.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Sent “Cynthia” packing, fyi. Bro troll for sure.

    • Cassandra

      Then you’re one of the reasons a misogynist Oompa Loompa is now the President. Congrats.

      • Cynthia Cooper

        No dear, the DNC made that happen.

        BTW we live in a deep blue state. Our votes didn’t matter.

  • Wren

    Well no real feminist would ever run for any office, don’t ya know?? Bunch of fucking sell-outs.

    REAL feminists stay home and blog endlessly about revolution and the end of empire.

    • will

      Haha!!

  • Wren

    Indeed.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Oh please. Cut it out, polina.

  • OldPolarBear

    Now I’m curious about that clip but I don’t want to watch because I find a Bill Mahler utterly revolting.

  • Atheist

    Oh look, another brogressive denying sexism.

    Check your male privilege before mansplaining. Nobody wants to hear it.

  • Atheist

    It looks like brogressives are taking over Feminist Current in the comments.

    At this point I consider unchecked male privilege a form of trolling and putting women in their place. This is the last thing we need post election, but hey, I guess they think they’re entitled to occupy feminism, minimize sexism, and flex their male privilege so male interests stay relevant even in female spaces.

    Seriously, fuck these guys. We need more female outreach and collaboration, not more fake male allies that only want a platform to mansplain everything for us.

    • polina

      And oh, I feel the same way about Obama. The coolest, nicest, most charming neoliberal imperialist ever.

  • Cassandra

    He hates women. I’ve always thought that, long before I caught the Radicals. 😉

    • melissa

      Yup, you could always tell he has issue with them. But these days, compared to how libs and conservative men are acting, they make him come off as the woman friendly one.

  • Cassandra

    Just so you have a better idea of why Bill Clinton bombed Yugoslavia, you could read a liitle about Milosovic and what was happening with the Serbs and Albanians at the time. Now, I could kind of see the Serb side of things because Albanians tend to have more children per family, thus they were encroaching on Serb lands (in addition to some other unpleasant things, which may or may not have had to do with the particular strain of misogyny evident in cultures built on Islamic religion), etc. I mean that’s one of the oldest and most effective war tactics there is; just out reproduce everybody else. But alas the solution
    of genocide is by and large considered one to be avoided.

    Not sure why Hillary Clinton would be any more likely to push war than would an ignorant goon like Donald Trump though.

    Also, the 1% *are* the rightists. The “alt right” are fascists, and the liberal lunacy here in the states is approaching being what the flip view of that coin looks like. All these people who theoretically voted for Trump with some notion that they were flipping the bird at the “establishment” voted for exactly what they were flipping off. They say a fool is born every minute and last Tuesday millions of them proved it.

    • polina

      Everyone in Yugoslavia was at fault but only Serbia was bombed. Cold war is not about human rights. Aoitora thanks for your comment.

  • Cassandra

    “I’m angry and sad that Trump won but I’m happy that Hillary lost.”

    What is *wrong* with you?

  • Meghan Murphy

    You don’t think it is at all telling that so many people HATE (like, use the word ‘hate’) Hillary, but not Obama??

  • radwonka

    “Feminism is not a lovey lovey peace stuffed-animalish hippie movement that’s all about forgiving and loving and handling your bad energies while holding hands with your oppressors and singing Kumbaya”

    exactly, many people seem to think that feminism is about being Peace and Love and loving people, when it is a liberationnist movement…

  • will

    The U.S. was deeply entangled in Iraq and Syria before HC’s tenure. To imply that she led those actions single-handedly is ridiculous. As you know, I asked how you would have dismantled those messes.

  • will

    Cunt cunt cuntilicious cuntington cunty cuntbugers!

    (Sorry. Could not help myself.)

    • Wren

      lol!! Thanks!

  • Anthocerotopsida

    Nope, the berniebros like you liked Elizabeth Warren for a minute, but the majority of them (the misogynists among them) swiftly turned on her the second she failed to aim a flame thrower at HRC. Why do these bros who now hate Elizabeth Warren still love Bernie after all the support he showed for HCR? What’s the most obvious difference between Bernie and Elizabeth?

  • Wren

    Hillary is not awful. Meghan is not ignorant. Go play with your therapy dog.

  • Wren

    Right! I’m having a hard time grasping why so many people are analyzing this election to find out what the Democrats did wrong by not winning the Trump electorate. The excuses just keep getting more and more confounding. Truth is usually pretty simple. People voted for Trump because he “said what we think”, namely, blacks, Muslims, and women are nasty in one way or another. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SURGERY. Nor is it even worthy of astute political analysis. It’s just racism, xenophobia, and sexism given a green light. The vocal Trump constituency was remarkably stupid and simple minded. The ones who were intelligent but quiet supported him for financial and misogynist reasons.

  • Wren

    I guess we shoulda just let Hitler keep running the show as well.

  • Wren

    But discuss what, really? I am not dividing American into two camps of us against them – that is exactly the point I think many of us are trying to make. There is no dichotomy if the “enemy” is everywhere and everyone. We can analyze this fucking election till our brains bleed, but the truth is apparent. Poor whites are racist and misogynistic, rich whites are racist and misogynistic, women of all walks of life are racist and afraid of losing their status, ALL MEN of all political leanings and ethnicities are misogynistic. People are angry about jobs, etc, but that’s not what got people crawling out of the woodsy woodwork to vote in tens of millions for an accused rapist and admitted sexual predator. Only one thing did that.

    I understand that many people want to justify their anger and disappointment in Hillary, but if we don’t acknowledge the hard truth, how do we ever expect to see women granted real power in this world? This is a feminist discussion, and any other way to evaluate it just seems to be mental masturbation. We don’t have time for that. The stature of women in this society just plummeted and the ramifications may be devastating if we aren’t honest and proactive.

  • Wren

    No I’m the same! In reality (but usually not in practice) Christianity has a lot of radical feminist elements, at least the text attribute to Christ. The church I used to sing at supports Hillary, gay marriage, and the abolition of the sex industry.

    Also, I like to point this out whenever I can: Jesus was NOT a pacifist. Of child abusers, he said “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it
    would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck
    and he were thrown into the sea.” Mark 424 ESV

    Drown those motherfuckers. Somehow everyone overlooks these explicit directions.

  • Meghan Murphy

    None of your comments have been deleted, polina.

  • Wren

    I’m not gonna say that the majority of the Christian religion gives any fucks for women, but the actual texts attributed to Jesus are very radical in every way. I mean, he was pretty much an anarchist. Jesus spoke against divorce a lot because men could divorce women for burning their dinner. He spoke many times about child abuse, he never said anything about homosexuality. In fact, most of that crap is in the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible and in St. Paul’s writing.

    I think there is merit to Liberation Theology. Other than that, certain women I’ve looked up to used Christianity to help them escape prostitution. Trisha Baptie and Rachel Loyd consider themselves Christian. I do not consider myself Christian, but I do know other individual survivors of prostitution who do and who place a lot of the reason for their success on their faith. I personally don’t know what exactly I believe, but I don’t think I would have survived years of child abuse, abandonment, and prostitution if I didn’t convince myself that there was some entity, some higher life form that cared deeply about whether I survived or not. Otherwise, I certainly would have killed myself a long time ago.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I do not recall deleting any of your comments and just looked through the deleted comments and can’t find any from you … Are you certain it was one of your comments that was deleted?

  • Meghan Murphy

    I can’t understand it either, but it appears that Republican women just continued to vote Republican this time around. While people blamed ‘white women,’ white women voted almost exactly the same as they always do, except in fact more white women than usual voted Dem…

  • Meghan Murphy

    In a way, I suppose. America is a fucked up place…

    • tinwatchman

      Everywhere’s fucked up. It’s just a question of degree.

  • tinwatchman

    You know, I think I’ll pass, thanks.

  • whatisthis

    Her being a woman could be a reason. Though a person (Trump) coming out and saying things that probably many people wanted to to say could have been the factor too. And some things that liberals are doing might have also contributed to it. Like extreme political correctness, forcing extreme left opinion etc. For example I have see few things like that on this site. One was a article under a heading saying marriage is bad yet trying to question relationships in all forms and support being a spinster. Another article was saying all porn is revenge porn. If these things are what to come from extreme liberalism then its no surprise people will vote for conservatives to keep radical liberals in check. My guess

  • Meghan Murphy

    I’m Canadian, smarty-pants.

  • Bill Tremewan

    Canadian. Good. Stay there. Too bad; I’ve worked with a lot of very squared-away, patriotic Canucks, women too, in the military. I know there are top-quality ones.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Will do, bud!

      • Bill Tremewan

        Good. It’s still a nice country. Have visited a few times, will probably visit more. Good to have such a great ally right to our north.