Male entitlement begets male entitlement: On Elliot Rodger, misogyny, and the sex industry

As most of us are now aware, 22-year-old Elliot Rodger, son of Hollywood producer Peter Rodger, went on a shooting rampage on Friday night, killing six people and sending seven more to the hospital.

Rodger was very clear about the reasoning behind his violence. In a video posted online before the shooting, he says:

“For the last eight years of my life, ever since I hit puberty, I’ve been forced to endure an existence of loneliness, rejection and unfulfilled desires. All because girls have never been attracted to me. Girls gave their affection and sex and love to other men, but never to me. I’m 22-years-old and still a virgin. I’ve never even kissed a girl. I’ve been through college, for two and a half years, more than that actually, and I’m still a virgin. It has been very torturous.

College is the time when everyone experiences those things such as sex and fun and pleasure. But in those years I’ve had to rot in loneliness. It’s not fair. You girls have never been attracted to me. I don’t know why you girls aren’t attracted to me. But I will punish you all for it. It’s an injustice, a crime because I don’t know what you don’t see in me.”

This is male entitlement. You’re looking at it.

Rodger was so enraged that he had not been given that which he deserves, as a man — sexual access to women — that he killed.

In a world wherein men learn they not only deserve, but have the right to women’s bodies, Rodger’s behaviour isn’t really all that surprising. From the time they are young, boys are offered women’s bodies. They are provided with pornography, told that this is what women are for: your eyes, your pleasure, your dick.

Men and boys learn that what they want, they should have. That their every fantasy should be fulfilled. That prostitution even exists is proof of this message. That we live in a rape culture and a porn culture is further proof. What exactly did we think would come of telling men that sex is a right? That women owe it to them?

My dear friend, Elizabeth Pickett, wrote, of Rodger: “Real women failed to live up to the expectations created for him by pornography. So he killed some.” We offer men this fantasy — it’s no wonder they become enraged when women don’t perform as expected.

You’d think that the logical conclusion of all of this would be clear: male entitlement begets male entitlement.

Of course people only see what they want to see.

Numerous people appear to have come the entirely backwards conclusion that more prostitution is the solution. Of course! What could possibly be a better cure for male entitlement than more male entitlement! What could possibly be a better cure for male violence than more male violence! If we tell men their dicks are the number one priority, maybe they’ll stop thinking their dicks are the number one priority! Right? Right.

Behold the insanity:

Screen Shot 2014-05-25 at 2.45.15 PM

Logic, you guys! If we legalize men’s right to access women’s bodies, surely their sense of entitlement to said bodies will dissipate!

Elliot Rodger thought he deserved to be treated like a god.

“I’ll take great pleasure in slaughtering all of you. You will finally see that I am in truth, the superior one. The true alpha male. [Laughs.] Yes. After I’ve annihilated every single girl in the sorority house, I’ll take to the streets of Isla Vista and slay every single person I see there. All those popular kids who live such lives of hedonistic pleasure while I’ve had to rot in loneliness for all these years, they’ve all looked down upon me every time I’ve tried to go out and join them. All treated me like a mouse. Well now I will be a god compared to you. You’ll all be animals. You are animals, and I will slaughter you like animals. I’ll be a god exacting my retribution on all those who deserve it. And you do deserve it. Just for the crime of living a better life than me.”

Of course he did. Porn teaches men they are gods. Pop culture teaches men that the epitome of success is to be surrounded by naked women, fawning over you. Prostitution exists because we, as a culture, very much believe that women exist to pleasure men. We tell women that they have to “work” in marriage, to keep their men happy, to keep them from straying — buy sexy lingerie, try threesomes, try anal, perform every porn fantasy he has — he needs it, he deserves it, it is your job.

We can continue to skirt around these truths — that the sex industry and our patriarchal culture breed men like Rodger — but expect more violence, more deaths, more rape, and more abuse. Our world is rife with Elliot Rodgers. We create them every day. They aren’t going anywhere.

Meghan Murphy
Meghan Murphy

Founder & Editor

Meghan Murphy is a freelance writer and journalist. She has been podcasting and writing about feminism since 2010 and has published work in numerous national and international publications, including New Statesman, Vice, Al Jazeera, The Globe and Mail, I-D, Truthdig, and more. Meghan completed a Masters degree in the department of Gender, Sexuality and Women’s Studies at Simon Fraser University in 2012 and lives in Vancouver, B.C. with her dog.

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  • That’s funny because skimming the shooter’s manifesto, he does mention prostitution, but isn’t interested in it, because he knows prostitutes would be doing it for the money. He thought he was entitled to more than just sex with a woman at any cost, he wanted to be adored, loved, irresistible to women and make men envious of him, etc.
    It’s really disgusting that these people are advocating that a group of vulnerable women will always need to be available for purchase to ”contain men’s violence”. Ironically, they’d probably say feminists ”think all men are violent” even though they are the ones making that argument without noticing it.

    • secretfem

      yeah, but i think that’s part of the fantasy created by porn, too. women are always up for it, they think men are gods, they get pleasure from things that are objectively painful or unpleasant. i mean, i’ve had that problem in my own sex life with men who weren’t homicial maniacs. in porn, the women are always screaming, it takes them 2 seconds to orgasm, etc etc, and some men get angry and/or frustrated when it doesn’t work that way IRL.

  • Good thoughts to open a dialogue, but could use some unpacking as to the question — why DIDN’T he hire a sex worker? From looking at his manifesto, he definitely would’ve reacted negatively to the notion of paying for sex. Forking over money for sex wouldn’t have validated him. He would’ve considered it ‘cheating’ at the ‘game’. As I glean from his manifesto, sex per se isn’t what he was after; it was more abstract.

    PUAs and punters have the same vile male entitlement, but many seem to have reached different conclusions about the ‘place’ of women, so I think it is worth discussing them in different terms. Rodger, a PUA/MRA, wanted what sex represented to him: affection, validation of his ego, a ‘conquest’, a way to one-up the ‘brutes’ by taking ‘their’ women and thereby justifying his own place in the world. His entitlement (and he was extremely entitled) pointed at a vacuum inside him. Paid-for sex would not fill that vacuum — and on some level, he knew that.

    But no other kind of sex would have, either, and he did NOT know that. Partly because he’d abstracted the mere idea of sex to impossible heights — and partly because it’s impossible to fill a bottomless abyss.

    • terrifia

      Something I find interesting is the fact that Elliott Rodger was actually in fact vehemently anti-PUA. Look it up. Its awful – I read somewhere that members of the PUA community have reacted by calling him ‘the ultimate beta.’ Its almost as though he felt women owed so much to him that he needed not do anything for them to be throwing themselves at him.

      • Grackle

        He was virulently PUA because he felt it didn’t work–presumably he tried and failed, or maybe you’re right and felt like he shouldn’t have to make the effort. He was a member at PUAhate (which immediately went offline after his spree, apparently anticipating a backlash), which is a hideous hotbed of misogyny.

        • The truth is this was not about sex or being horny. If that was all it was, a prostitute could have defused the situation. This really wasn’t even about women in general. This was about his narcissism and entitlement as manifested in his misogyny and racism. He wanted specific women. He wanted the “10”. The popular girl with the styled hair and designer outfits. He wanted the Captain of the Cheerleaders. He needed his monumental ego validated. Nothing else would do. What we have here is what happens when MRA gets combined with privileged brat. So, in that sense, it is at least partly his parents fault for raised such an entitled ass.
          The fact that people are somehow suggesting that a sex worker could have helped here just shows the level to which they are willing to go to “blame women” for what is really a very dangerous male violence and entitlement problem.

  • Pingback: Femicide, Misogyny and Elliot Rodger Part 2 | End Online Misogyny()

  • Kate

    If he had gone to sex workers he likely would have been violent and aggressive towards them (since he was a violent and aggressive person no matter how much sex he was having). He might have killed sex workers if he visited them. I get the sense in some of these tweets that that outcome would have been somehow preferable to what ended up happening – “normal” women getting killed.

  • mauritia

    What I have noticed is about many sexually frustrated straight men is that they get caught in a cycle: they watch a ton of porn because they aren’t having sex, and then the porn makes their standards more and more out of touch with reality, making them even less likely to appeal to an actual woman. Now obviously most of these men don’t turn into murderers, but a lot of them do turn into garden variety misogynist dicks.

  • This is right on. These are my thoughts exactly. Eliott wanted not sex with any woman, he wanted a beautiful woman and apparently a blonde woman (or woman willing to dye her hair blonde) specifically from what he wrote. Also I’m pretty sure not only blonde woman would have been enough, it was probably a young slim blonde woman he wanted. He was picky and entitled. I’m sure that there were many women willing to sleep with him but he didn’t want them. I’m sure that this is true of many men who want the ability to go to a prostitute and abuse her, they have women willing to sleep with them and they have sex accessible, but they also feel entitled to the right to be picky.

    • Yes, that was left out of Meghan’s great (as always) posting. This entitled murderer not only wanted a woman, but a gorgeous, blonde, skinny woman.

      • Yes! It’s not sex that these guys want. There are tons of horny women out there, this idea that women don’t want to have just as much sex as men is a lie. These men are picky they want a young, “beautiful” woman who they can dominate. They don’t even “see” women who are not skinny or older, another hair colour or race than they want. Those women don’t exist to them, they aren’t women. “Women rejected me” means, “The 1% of women I was interested in sleeping with rejected me.”
        This is the same scenario with prostitution. An Irish study on prostitution found that most of the men visiting prostitutes have wives and girlfriends, they are not sex deprived. But they want sex in a context in which they can dominate and control 🙁 And they feel not just entitled to sex, but to sex with young beautiful women. Meghan makes an excellent point that giving in to this male entitlement and oppressive attitude will only beget more male entitlement and oppression.These men will never be satisfied in their need for domination and control.

    • I wouldn’t assume that there were many women willing to sleep with him. I would bet that he was just not liked by women,period. Maybe his crowing about his ideal women was just a way for him to feel justified in his hate of women.

      • I’m with you. I am pretty sure he was causing the “creep alert” system to sound off all the time. He admitted stalking the members of the sorority several times. Just listening to him. Male or female. When a person is filled with this much hate, you feel it.

        • “…a prostitute could have defused the situation.”

          “This really wasn’t even about women in general.”

          “…sex worker…”

          “Male or female. When a person is filled with this much hate, you feel it.”

          Right. Because women go on mass-shooting sprees tooooo. You’ve stumbled onto a site that is just a tad more advanced than you’re prepared for. Thanks for the mansplaining though. Us lady brains just can’t get enough of it. Really.

  • morag

    I wonder if these supposive sex work advocates realize that they’re playing into the old patriarchal trick of creating a class of disposable women. As if prostituted women should bare the brunt of his rage so he wouldn’t be violent to society at large-i.e be violent towards men too. I agree with other comments upthread; he didn’t just want a woman, he wanted THE perfect woman who would never say no and exist solely as his personal sex toy. When will men realize that if they don’t have any interests or accomplishments or a kind personality, women won’t want to be with them? It’s almost like women are human beings, and we have the right to choose our own stimulating partner!

    • reality

      Let’s see, interests. great conversation, accomplishments , kind personality. Oh, you mean FRIENDZONE?

      • Nice Try

        No dear, she clearly said “interests or accomplishments or a kind personality”, not “whiny, petulant, manipulative, spineless, cowardly, passive-aggressive and narcissistic”. There’s no such thing as the friend zone honey, just women who don’t want you because you don’t have anywhere near all the things you seem to have deluded yourself into believing you have to offer.

        • Anonomega

          Umm…no, it is you who are deluded. As I stated earlier, its women like you who delude yourselves into thinking lonely men have some sort of flaw in their moral character which prevent them from getting women. You cant let go of this “sugar and spice and everything nice” mentality and face the fact that women can be every bit as shallow as men, if not more so. And so you demonise any guy who dares compain about this sort of thing by assuming all sorts of negative traits. Worse yet you try to say that harmless non-derogitory words like involuntary celibacy and friendzone, somehow dont exist as a way of using language to dismiss and trivialise what real problems to people.

          • Julia

            You’re male, aren’t you? That’s the only way you could possibly believe this tripe. Posting anonymously as well, I see. Figures, as it’s always the misogynists who are cowardly enough to hide behind their anonymity and computer screens. I’m guessing you’re pissed because a woman dared to turn you down. Have we ever referred to a woman who wasn’t wanted in a romantic way as “friend zoned?” Stop trying to turn sexism around and make it about you. There’s a reason Narcissistic Personality Disorder is seven times more prevalent in men. Shut your pie hole and educate yourself, rather than be a whiny little baby because a woman pointed out the flaws of your sex. There’s nothing wrong with a lonely man. There IS, however, something wrong with a man who believes he’s entitled to a woman’s body and thinks it’s okay to belittle her for rejecting him. That’s what the made-up “friend zone” (words aren’t “harmless” because they all have meaning, especially if they’re created for the purpose of being derogatory, regardless of what your deluded mind believes) seeks to do. Too bad it’s doing nothing but further proving your gender’s sexism, ignorance and entitlement.

  • Elliot should be seen as a terrorist. His manifesto was anti-female and his targets women, yet he is mostly seen as a madman.

    • I was doing my master’s at Université de Montréal back when Marc Lépine went on his rampage and killed 14 women. He also seriously injured other students, in this case also including young men.

      You can be a madman, or zealot, and be a terrorist. Lépine wrote a similar hate manifesto to women (he had a lot of other intended targets). In Lépine’s case, he wasn’t jealous of other men who “scored” but of women with better marks whom he thought “cheated” him out of his self-proclaimed right to enter an engineering faculty.

      • Oh, sure one can be a madman and a terrorist.
        My point was that he is looked upon as the sort of madman that acts without really knowing what he is doing, like a madman in movies or something. That is at least the notion I have got from watching this unfold in the press and in discussions.
        But he knew exactly what he was doing.

        I also seen more and more trying to switch the discussions online that women should just “shut up about the misogyny because he killed more men than women”, they completely misses the point that he killed those men to “get to women”.
        He clearly stated that “I will kill your boyfriends”, so those men became more like “sacrifices in war” to get to your enemy.

    • Great point! Well said!

    • Missfit

      People are are afraid to name misogyny because then they would have to confront it.

      In his book on misogyny, Jack Hollan wrote:

      ‘What history teaches us about misogyny can be summed up in four words: pervasive, persistent, pernicious and protean. (…) Yet, these very features that should have made misogyny stand out have rendered it in a strange way inconspicuous. In the case of misogyny, we have too often relinquished the struggle to see what is in front of our noses.

      In November of 2003, the latest in a long line of American serial killers, Gary Ridgeway, stood in a Seattle court and repeated ‘guilty’ over and over again to charges of strangling forty-eight young women, mostly prostitues, during a period of two decades. Had the victims of his murderous rampage been Jews or African Americans, there would have been a national alarm sounded, and acres of print covered with soul-searching questions about the state of race relations in the United States as we enter a new millenium. But the actions of a Ridgeway, or a Jack the Ripper, are usually left to a psychiatrist to explain. Their urge to kill women is seen as an aberration when in truth it is simply an intensification of a commonplace prejudice.’

      • morag

        I have to disagree with that Hollan quote. No, there wouldn’t be some national outrage if the victims were black or Jewish-look how long it took the Kansas shootings to be declared a hate crime. He seems to forget that one can be both female and black, Jewish, etc. I think he has a very simplistic view of history-and his readers-if he believes that he can write about misogyny like that.

        • Missfit

          There has been a shooting in a Belgium Jewish museum resulting in 3 or 4 deaths. It has been labeled a terrorist act (it has not been claimed as such by any organisation yet) and there was a reporting on national television here, following that news, on whether we should be worried about a rise of antisemitism in Europe. I feel that when it comes to men’s acts of violence and ‘retribution’ against women, there is a failure to make connections to a larger problem, it seems that efforts are even made to make these acts appear as isolated events, the works of mentally disturbed individuals, devoid of possible connections to social attitudes and discourse.

          • morag

            I see your point, but I just don’t feel comfortable with the whole “X minority group gets more media coverage than women” since it ignores the fact that women belong to multiple minority groups. In the shooting you just mentioned Jewish women were among the victims-being Jewish didn’t magically erase their womanhood. Granted they weren’t killed for being women in this case, but like I said I don’t feel comfortable comparing media representations of groups in that way.

          • Missfit

            Thank you for highlighting how this is problematic.This is a problem when we compare misogyny to other oppressions in order to highlight that it is overlooked. It puts women who face multiple oppressions in the uncomfortable position of ‘split identity’. This should be avoided and I will think twice when such comparisons surface. I don’t like that quote finally, it could have simply said (after stating the facts regarding the killer Ridgeway): ‘this could have been an opportunity to look at the wider problem of misogyny in our culture as we enter the new millennium. But the actions of a Ridgeway, or a Jack the Ripper, are usually left to a psychiatrist to explain, etc.’ Point made without sidelining non-white women. Indeed, Indigenous people are disproportionately missing and murdered in Canada without national outrage and soul-searching questions. These people also happen to be women.

    • It’s necessary to pretzel-logic Elliot into just another lone-wolf madman. Otherwise, it would expose the fact that 99.99% of men are nuts.

      • ptittle

        Yes. And not speaking metaphorically. Once one realizes that, well, that changes everything.

  • anaeli

    That last tweet really nailed it. ‘Convenient target’?! Wow.

    Still, these people are not as scary as the men writing on the PUAhate and wizardchan forums. Apparently Rodger frequented these two forums along with another forum about bodybuilding which was apparently a bit less mysogynistic (they called him out on his remarks). However PUAhate and wizardchan seem to be the places where male entitlement goes to thrive and be patted on the back. These men call themselves ‘incels’, as in ‘involuntary celibate’ (I am not making this up). On the PUAhate forum, they talk about how women are some sort of evil because they only want to be with good looking men – yet they see no hypocrisy in the fact that they only want hot women. They are entitled hot women and the women are denying their right!

    On wizardchan, they think women only want confident men or I don’t even know… This forum was beyond disgusting. They talked about giving up on women, they talked about how easy women had it. Some said they were glad Rodger had killed some ‘normies’ (normals?), some pondered what it would be like to kill some ‘normies’ themselves. They had a thread about how rape isn’t so bad. It’s just sex! If feminists are in favor of having casual sex, why are they against rape?! Apparently it makes no sense. The OP came with an ‘enlightnening’ explanation as some called it: women hate rape because they hate that non-chads could fuck them! Chads being men that can get sex, I think. Well no shit Sherlock. Women really enjoy choosing who to have sex with?! That is ground-breaking. All in all, they were saying rape is not so bad. You can just get raped and get over it, unlike if you are an ‘incel’, because these men suffer so much more than rape victims. Rape victims should just take it, especially if they are ‘whores’ (they have had casual sex with several males), then it doesn’t even really count as rape, it’s just casual sex.

    How cand some men hate women so much but at the same time want to have sex with them?! Disgusted doesn’t even begin to describe what I feel.

    • I think it is important to point out that the “chads”, as they have been called, are not any better. A chad who has had sex with a hundred women will become furious if “conquest” number 101 rejects him. For them (and for this murderer too) it is all about status and competition. The murderer wanted sex because the males around him were having sex and he did not want to have less than they were having. So the solution is not giving men more sex because someone will always feel they are not “getting enough” compared to the others. The more sex men as a group have, the more they want. It works the same way as it does with other pleasurable things. No more how many consumer goods we have, we are not happy if we feel that our neighbour has more than we do.

      I think the kind of thinking these self-proclaimed “incels” have, is the same kind of thinking that leads men to want to have sex with a whole lot of random women. They think sex is everything and emotional connections which result from getting to know women as human beings are nothing. They think that if a woman insists that a man get to know her as a human being before he has sex with her, then she is wasting his time and taking up too much “resources”, because any time spent with a women that does not result in sex is time wasted (in their minds.)

      Sexual libertarian thought is just riddled with misogyny and it seems the only way one can be a sexual libertarian without being a misogynist is by insisting that women are just as sex-crazed as men are, that women are constantly craving casual sex even if do not seem like they are. So when sexual libertarian males declare that they are “feminist” and do not find themselves surrounded by thin, busty women throwing themselves at them, they get angry that their expectations have not been met and what you know, they go right back to being misogynists. Either that are they blame the few non-believers left in the world (the “sex-negatives”) for everything. The Twitter comments in the post are a perfect example of this. In the commenters’ view the problem is not a sex-crazed society that tells men in particular that sex is everything. The supposed problem is that men do not have enough access to sex, but in reality the more access they get the more entitled they feel to it.

      In case it sounds like I’m blaming sexual libertarianism for everything, I do feel that masculinity is a big part of the problem as well. Women denied sex do not act this way, because they have not been taught from an early age that aggression and violence are good things and that the more ruthlessly violent they are the “better” they are. However I do not think one can seperate sexual libertarianism from masculinity. Breaking boundaries around sex for the sake of breaking boundaries around sex (not for sake of making people’s lives substantially better) is a major part of sexual libertarianism. They talk of enabling “sex” (which they perceive as some of kind of magical force that acts independently of human will) to conquer the public world. The promotion of casual sex in particular is a major part of modern day masculinity. It is sex with the “girly” things removed (emotional connection, listening to your girlfriend talk about her life, focusing on some aspect of the woman other than her butts or boobs, etc.)

      I think if want to stop this sort of thing from happening again we need to stop making such a big deal about sex. In the same way that we would need to get rid of advertising if we wanted Westerners to stop feeling entitled to excessive wealth, we need to stop shoving sex down everybody’s throat if we want men to stop feeling entitled to it. Yes, sex can be fun, but it is no more necessary than videogames are. It is far more important for men and women to interact as human beings and develop close romantic connections with one another. If that leads to sex great, if is does not,you still got to interact with a human being you really liked and that is great by itself.

      If somebody wants to talk/hear about sex, they should be allowed to and people should receive basic information about how to have sex safely. If somebody wants to see sex and sexual relationships in films they should be allowed to also, but it should not be the case that every single film either features sex, constant discussions about sex, “sexy” female bodies or people who barely know each other making out. If this man did not think that sex was the most important thing ever and if his status within the university culture (and yes, universities are partially to blame for this) did not depend on him having a tonne of casual sex, then this probably would not have happened. I am not trying to let the guy off the hook for what he did, but I think the social dynamics involved need to acknowledged.

      • Well, I strongly disagree with you about sex (not sexual libertarianism, which is an ideology). It is far more important, to men and women alike, than video games or some other random leisure activity, and has been so throughout history, whatever the social structure.

    • “How cand some men hate women so much but at the same time want to have sex with them?!”

      It’s not sex they’re after. It’s the gynergy suck they need, sticking their dicks into females just like a nasty, malarial mosquito parasite.

    • ptittle

      “How can … with them?” Because having sex with a woman isn’t about the woman AT ALL.

  • Me

    Talk about sex as violence and femicide as the ultimate sexual act. This is all about violation, all about entitlement. We need to stop this fucking culture.

  • Grackle

    And predictably too much media is focusing on some potential mental illness, and the fact that he was also a racist, at least when he saw non-white guys with “above average women”. They’re focusing on the fact that he murdered men, too, like he was an equal-opportunity kind of killer, without acknowledging WHY he killed them.

    For too many people, it’s never about women, even when it’s all about women.

    On the plus (?) side, a lot of the internet is paying attention to the fact that it was extremist misogyny. We need to keep this conversation going.

    • morag

      I noticed on Tumblr too a lot of the “I want equality not feminism” types are accussing feminists of “making it all about themselves.” I saw someone write “How can you take a tragedy and force it to fit your extreme politics?”

      • Rightwing and misogynist commentators said exactly the same thing about the Polytechnique massacre.

  • anaeli

    Also, do these people really think that by age 22 a person ca be so oblivious as to not know that prostitutes exist or where to find them? I remember being a fresher in high school and everybody knew. Oh, if only his father had taken him to some prostitutes and showed him how to let his anger out on them. Seriously?!

  • I agree with every single word you wrote, Meghan. This is what male entitlement looks like.

  • peace

    Note also his use of the word “animals ” to refer to his victims, saying that, like animals, they are only good for slaughter. Just another example of sexism and speciesism being connected … what Carol J. Adams famously wrote about. The culture of violence to all innocent and disempowered victims.

  • This is ridiculous, like the tendency in Nazi Germany to twist everything to “blame the jews”, what about looking at the facts instead of seeing how many excuses you can find to covertly persecute sex workers?
    http://mymythbuster.wordpress.com/elliot-rodgers-turn-a-different-corner/

    • Meghan Murphy

      What on earth are you talking about?

    • morag

      I’m a Jewish radical femininist and abolitionist. Don’t you dare co-opt my people’s struggle while also promoting antifeminist rhetoric.

      • Sidh

        morag, why am I not surprised?

      • Morag, It remains a fact that that exactly the same propaganda techniques are being used to demonise men as were used by Goebbels propaganda Ministry in Germany in the 1930.

        That is a disgusting outright mockery of the holocaust as well as proof that we have not learned the lessons of it at al.

        • Meghan Murphy

          You’re going to have start backing up supposed “facts” with evidence. Also, just to be clear, are you comparing feminists to Nazis?

          • morag

            Jews who write online have a saying for comments like these: “goyim are gonna goy.” People like this hate Jews, and then co-pt our history and suffering to bring another group they don’t like down. My words as a Jew and a feminist of course have no meaning to aformersexworker since they’ve already declared themselves the expert on these things-despite having no knowledge of either thing. I think what hurts the most is the lack of originality-why do they always use the term nazi and not mix it up once in a while, like call feminism a Klingon invasion? The nerds would love that.

          • I spend half my life backing up facts with evidence, as well you know, while ye affect “entitlement” to evidence through (often clueless) assertion and ignoring all the hard evidence, so why waste my time?

            I am not showing any more evidence until I see at least some objective, neutral, peer reviewed and verified evidence to counter.

            Healthy feminism, was something my generation were ready to do to level the playing field for good.

            I am convinced by experience that the Radical feminist movement has distorted that into a form of dangerous and unscrupulous Neo Nazism.

            Put crudely, a sick, twisted attempt to tilt the playing field to far in the opposite direction without even a casual nod at reality, sanity or who and how many innocent people get hurt along the way.

            I eagerly await your objective, neutral, peer reviewed and verified evidence to the contrary.

          • Meghan Murphy

            “I am convinced by experience that the Radical feminist movement has distorted that into a form of dangerous and unscrupulous Neo Nazism.”

            Bye.

          • lizor

            “I spend half my life backing up facts with evidence”

            I’m guessing that was the first half.

        • Prostitution is not about sex and it is not work. Get hip to the deal.

  • Glory Smith

    An article by Forbes [http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2014/05/24/the-disturbing-internet-footprint-of-santa-barbara-shooter-elliot-rodger/] mentioned that Elliot’s hatred of women (while extremely real and dangerous) was very general. He never specifically mentioned one woman in his Manifesto who caused his hatred, but he did however have a lot of anger at specific men because he felt they were belittling him or one-upping him. During his shooting spree, he also killed more men than women….It could be argued that this is because he was stopped before he made it to the sorority house, his ultimate target. Someone mentioned here that Elliot wanted “conquest–” that he wanted to take the women who he saw as the property of other men.

    I don’t think he actually wanted to have sex pe se. If he did, he would have paid a prostitute since he did have the money. He wanted power and as someone said, “validation,” the gratification that it bring. This article is right that men are taught that women’s bodies belong to them, but men (consciously or unconsciously) also see attractive women as indicators as status. He wanted a hot girlfriend because of the status it would bring. It’s the same reason why clubs in Vegas bring pretty women to tables of rich men. The men will buy these women alcohol simply to have their presence at the table. The men will continue to pay in order to show their status and wealth. Rodger had a huge unfulfilled ego and desired the same ability to flaunt wealth and compete against other men, and he turned crazy because of it. Rape culture fed his ego and his unfounded hatred for women, whom he saw as the reason why he could not compete against other men. Legalization of prostitution has nothing to do with it and would not likely fix a culture that engenders competition among men and teaches hatred of women.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Yes for sure. Women are treated as decorative things and status symbols for powerful men, like fancy cars. Of course prostitution reinforces these ideas, making women literally into products that can be bought and sold to those with more power.

      • Jasmina

        Misstating the facts again, prostitutes (male or female) are no more being sold as products, as the psychologist, the dentist or the nurse who is providing a service. A service is not a product!

        • Meghan Murphy

          Men are buying access to women’s body parts. That’s what prostitution is. The vast majority of prostituted women are trafficked or coerced. This is not something that is comparable to being a dentist or a nurse and that is an absolutely disingenuous comparison.

          • Jasmina

            Women are also buying!!! And men are also selling! And your statement that the “vast majority of prostituted women are trafficked or coerced” is misleading and needs to be developed. In fact it is false!

          • Meghan Murphy

            Yep. Men buy sex from men and boys too. Now go troll someone else. We all have better things to do than respond to your boring, cliched comments.

          • Quite right, and the majority of sex work, at least in the U.S., is performed by people who made the choice to do the work. In addition, they don’t have to go with a particular client just because the client can afford to pay. It is possible to refuse a client. Of course, because of the stigma attached to the sex work industry, a worker faces having their children taken away, even when the children in question aren’t abused and are well taken care of. In the event of a rape, a sex worker has a more difficult time reporting it and having it taken seriously. Also, police are simply more likely to treat them unfairly. In cases where serial killers primarily target prostitutes, the crimes are not as thoroughly investigated. I would see a world where a person could choose whether or not to do sex work (and there are people who like the job, contrary to popular media depictions of desperate streetwalkers–who only represent a small minority of the industry, btw) without harassment from police or other individuals. In short, can’t we treat prostitutes as real, thinking, members of society, instead of as “those” people? That’s the thing that struck me about this discussion– so many treat prostitutes as “other”, and deny them their choices as individuals. This is what feminism means to me–the radical idea that women should be able to make their own choice. Have the baby, or have an abortion? Carry a handgun for safety, or not? Choose to work in a traditional “safe” female job (homemaker, teacher, secretary, etc.), choose to work in a traditional male job (police, firefighter, military general, etc.), or even choose a career as a prostitute, stripper, porn actress, etc? It should be up to the individual woman to decide what she does with her life. Not the men in her life, not society at large. *end rant*

          • “Quite right, and the majority of sex work, at least in the U.S., is performed by people who made the choice to do the work. ”
            Poverty, child abuse, drug addiction, have nothing to do with women deciding to become prostitutes. You live in never-neverland.

            “It should be up to the individual woman to decide what she does with her life. Not the men in her life, not society at large. *end rant* ”
            People exist in a vacuum, do they? You are absolutely mental.

          • morag

            Funny how you’re imploring for sex workers to be treated as human beings but then dismiss those women on the lowest rung of the sex industry ladder as “just a minority.” Are some women more human than others? Even if only one woman is prostituted against her will-and in reality it’s millions-that should make you angry as hell. I really hope all the choose my choice/I love the sex industry types who smugly comment here have trouble sleeping at night.

          • I think you replied to the wrong person there.

          • morag

            Just to clarify my comment was to Cassandra-I thought that was self evident.

          • Sal

            Feminism is about womens liberation from men and male-owned culture, Patriarchy. The ability to make decisions about our own lives will come naturally from that.It is about the freedom of Females as a class, a group. I am sick of the political movement that is feminism, being turned into, via Liberal ‘feminism’, choosing choicey choices.

            Imagine the entire black civil rights movement being framed as giving ‘blacks the right to choose to be 2nd class’, rather than focusing on and fixing the social systems that had them viewed and treated that way in the first place.

            The liberation of a political group is not about taking individual experiences and opinions and using them to invisiblize the problems that face the wider group.

            Liberal ‘feminism’ is a farce. Its part of the problem when it comes to prostitution, porn, the romanticization of unequal, abusive or unfair dynamics in relationships etc.

    • Alli

      Could we throw around ideas what could end or diminish that competition among men and how to properly block yourself out of that setting as a woman? It makes me feel self-aware and like a grey mouse when I see in some social settings men playing and some women taking part to that game… And often it’s not just about looks but education, job…

      • Me

        So, basically reverse several thousand years of patriarchy, cure the collective insanity and turn the world around? Good question! 🙂

  • Jasmina

    All of the facts in this tragedy have not been established, yet this author is already exploiting it to further a political agenda. I am getting tired of her anti-intellectual rants that draw dubious correlations between the sex industry and all of society’s ills. The author always always omits the existence of male prostitution and of gay and lesbian porn. Women are increasingly becoming clients as well. But because facts don’t fit in with her agenda that wants to criminialize sex-industry consumers, because she has already ad-nauseum brushed all women in this industry claiming they are all rape-victims, she now resorts to plugging the latest topic with her political aspirations. It’s shamefull senstionalism!

    • Jasmina

      Not surprisingly, my comment has not been approved. This author is not interested in any serious discussions that would challenge her opinions, she is just interested in pronouncements.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Uh, yes — your incredibly serious and challenging comment has been approved. I’m sure everyone is blown away.

        • Jasmina

          Please, you only approved my comment once I challenged you on it.

          • Jasmina

            further your omission of the existence of widespread male prostitution, gay/lesbian porn and that women are becoming clients proves that you’re not interested in a truthful conversation. You’re just into sarcasm and sensationalism.

          • Meghan Murphy

            Please stop trying to derail the conversation or I actually will stop posting your comments. 80-90% of prostitutes are women. Almost all buyers are men.

          • Meghan Murphy

            No. I approved your comment when I woke up. But I promise you that if you keep this up, I’ll stop approving them. You’re wasting everyone’s time and you’re not contributing anything to this discussion. I am also, for the record, not obligated to post anyone’s comments. Think of this as a favour.

          • jo

            “Jasmina” stop whining, it takes a while for ALL comments to be approved on this blog. You’re not special. Meghan has to go through a lot of shit comments apparantly so moderation is on.

    • Meghan Murphy

      I suppose you could frame fighting violence against women and virulent misogyny as an effort to ‘further a political agenda’…

      • Jasmina

        Your political agenda seeks to have the Nordic model enacted into law which does nothing to fight violence against women or virulent misogyny. If you really want to fight those things, target mainstream culture, don’t involve an industry who know nothing about!

        • Meghan Murphy

          My ‘political agenda’ is feminism and socialism — i.e. the creation of an equitable society free from oppression. Prostitution exists because of capitalism, colonialism and patriarchy. Therefore I advocate for a model that is socialist and feminist and that acknowledges that prostitution happens because of systemic oppression/power structures and marginalization.

    • Lizor

      ” The author always always omits the existence of male prostitution and of gay and lesbian porn.” Nope. Incorrect. Meghan has explained ad nauseum why these exceptions to the vast majority are not her focus.

      “I am getting tired of her anti-intellectual rants that draw dubious correlations between the sex industry and all of society’s ills.” Then why continue to read the blog if you are so fatigued? Your inability to either comprehend the arguments (or you refusal to engage with the positions in good faith – I cant’t tell which) makes me wonder why you read or comment here at all, besides the possible/likely motives of a garden-variety troll.

      Oh, and your charge of “anti-intellectualism” is hilarious.

      • Meghan Murphy

        I know, these are like, the most boring, classic-trolling comments. Apologies to everyone who’s had to waste their time reading them. Also, fyi, “Jasmina” is a dude.

        • Jasmina

          So what if I am a “dude”? Does that discredit me? For someone who tries to combat sexism, you’re not doing a very good job.

          • “So what if I am a “dude”? Does that discredit me?”

            If you’re really a dude then the name “Jasmina” is a lie and I don’t give liars much credit.

            Don’t use a name that suggests that you’re a woman when you’re not. It’s deceptive. It leads people to believe that there are more pro-prostitution women than there actually are.

      • Jasmina

        Because her depiction of the sex-industry is inaccurate and misleading. Her views on consent completely outrageous. Not trolling, I am challenging, and it’s working!

        • Meghan Murphy

          Your comments are dumb and I’m not publishing anymore of them. Again, sorry everyone.

        • It’s “working”? How is it “working”? It’s only “working” in the sense that we can see how stupid you are.

          • MLM

            I think it’s a lame attempt at a Jedi mind trick.

    • There are very few female consumers of prostitution. Most male prostitutes serve gay male clients.

      • tm

        Oh dear. OK. Sex for money isn’t a problem. Prostitution Culture/Norms are the problem. Placing Women in a de-sexualized space is a problem; after that’s done any act of prostitution is then always already an automatically oppressive/rape act. To be clear: rape is horrifying, disgusting and not OK. But so is taking away a woman’s right to choose what to do with her own body, including the choice to exchange sex for money. Key word there is “choice.” Sexual slavery, be it through human trafficking or pimps here in the States, is not OK. Choice has been taken away.

        We have to grow up. Sex isn’t bad. ***Nor is it the end-all, be-all of existence.*** I feel like we sorta need to get that message out there more. However, we don’t do so well in this country if we can’t have an “either/or” choice to tick off the ballot.

        Now, this kid. Honestly, I feel like the root of this tragedy has more to do with socioeconomic structures on top of misogyny. And his self-directed racism. It was all braided together in a rope of awful that led to the deaths of a lot of innocent people, regardless of biological gender.

        He was clearly, clearly, CLEARLY mentally imbalanced. And there’s always the demonization that goes along with that. What outraged me was his parents actually did try to wave for help days before this, and no one cared.

        • “But so is taking away a woman’s right to choose what to do with her own body, including the choice to exchange sex for money. Key word there is “choice.” ”

          What a load of crap. You are an idiot.

          “He was clearly, clearly, CLEARLY mentally imbalanced. ”

          No he wasn’t. Stop propagating the Big Lie that the media is trying to feed us. Misogyny is not mental imbalance, it’s our way of life.

          • ptittle

            Or rather, mental imbalance is men’s way of life.

        • Missfit

          ‘To be clear: rape is horrifying, disgusting and not OK. But so is taking away a woman’s right to choose what to do with her own body, including the choice to exchange sex for money.’

          Are you seriously making that equation? Sexual torture is as bad as a woman with options not doing prostitution (because if she has the choice, that means she has options and is not doing so for survival)? No woman has been harmed by NOT prostituting herself. This comparison is outrageous.

          ‘Sex is not bad.’ You don’t say! I guess we anti-sex prudes should just grow up. Sex is always good, never bad, got it. And prostitution equals sex thus prostitution is good. Got it. Oh, and misogyny is only secondary, a minor detail, in regards to Elliot Rodger’s killing spree. Got it. Seriously, you are boring, you have nothing meaningful to bring to the readers here.

          • tm

            Well, to each their own, but I really have a hard time believing this guy wasn’t saddled with immense mental problems.

            Interestingly, I seem to have activated the “either/or” reaction in MissFit’s response above. I didn’t say that sex is “always good”, I said something quite different. But it seems to have elicited a good/bad reaction.

            And to Missfit: Could you define Sexual Torture to me? I’m asking this question in a non-snarky way, just wondering what falls into that category other than the sensationalized sex-crimes we see on television.

            and to FT: I didn’t say Misogyny had no place in this rather lethal equation. I think it’s part of a larger tapestry of f*cked up that led to this.

          • Missfit

            You’re the one who said ‘grow up, sex is not bad’. Nobody said that sex was either good or bad. You’re the one who came with this either/or, ascribing value to sex as ‘not bad’. Then if it’s ‘not bad’, I conclude it is good? If you specifically mentioned that sex was not bad (as in ‘not necessarily always bad’) because you thought we said so, where was that? Otherwise, what was your point? Why do we need to grow up?

            In prostitution, women are sexually used by one john after another, in the same day, day after day. Do you have any idea what men want to do to women? I’m sure you do. You can go read the testimonies of ex-prostitutes. And this happen to millions of prostituted women and girls worldwide. And this amounts to sexual torture if you want my opinion.

        • “But so is taking away a woman’s right to choose what to do with her own body, including the choice to exchange sex for money.”

          The sex economy exists ( men buying, women selling) because men see women as something to fuck. Sex workers park their humanity so that they can get paid. Even in the best case scenarios ( the high end prostitutes working as free agents), the sex worker is dehumanized and treated like a fuck toy in exchange for money. She plays the part of a willing participant in exchange for payment. Demand facilitates the process, not supply. Women that have the luxury of choosing this existence do so because they are trying to survive, men make the dehumanizing practice profitable because they want to orgasm . What a tradeoff! The problem is social, and the best way to fix it is for society to crush the demand.

          Choice should always has to be measured against outcomes. People can choose to do a lot of things with their bodies that are destructive to individuals and society.

          • tm

            @MF – You left out the first person plural in my “grow up” statement. I think we still have a really, really infantile attitude towards sex and sexuality. And to be even clearer: this is why I keep talking about the “either/or” problem. Because the same attitudes I am seeing here about sexuality are the same binary traps that keep Patriarchy running the show.

            @Stacy – is it only about the orgasm?

            Anyway, back to this kid: why does no one want to talk about the Racist Angle of Everything? And are there no intersections between misogyny and classism?

          • “is it only about the orgasm?”

            Visit a nofap or sex addict forum, they aren’t talking about log walks on the beach. Escorts are a different subject, but even then you have to think about that dynamic. Females as human fashion accessories to inflate male egos? If it was just about companionship, there are plenty of women out there willing to be friends for free – and many of them don’t look like a super model.

          • “…why does no one want to talk about the Racist Angle of Everything? And are there no intersections between misogyny and classism?”

            By far, the largest and oldest of all classes is the sex class, AKA women. Since the sex class is too big and scary to talk about (it would threaten man’s entitlement to women’s bodies – gasp), most discussion about misogyny quickly derails into a discussion about racism or mental illness or gun control or anything but the all pervasive hatred of women.

            Racism could not even exist without men controlling women so that they don’t procreate with those not of their own race. Therefore, “we” have a patriarchal, not an infantile, attitude towards sex and sexuality.

            So, you tell us why no one wants to talk about the Sexist Angle of EVERYthing.

          • tm

            @MI – I’m risking a shock here – I agree that women/girls have been treated as a subclass since Ugh-Forever. That said, I’m intrigued by your position that racism would not exist without misogyny. Never heard that point before. Tell me more. Since I personally believe misogyny is the root cause of homophobia, and that’s also part of a class structure that creates another population that is “less than”, and this incident may have been fueled by this kid actually turning into a sex-obsessed maniac when he may have had little interested in it at all, but rather was constantly terrified there was something *wrong* with him because of a lack of interest. I guess that’s what I’ve been trying to get at – some people don’t like sex, or like it fine, or love it, with all shades in between. Just like the binary category constructs of gender, race, and sexuality which are, at best, hallucinatory on a good day. But that’s my experience/opinion when it comes to young men and sex. It becomes a joyless goal as opposed to something to enjoy. And we have no way to question this kid, only his rant to examine. In addition to it being just odious and poorly written, we have NO guarantee that he was actually telling any kind of “truth” as it pertains to himself. Obviously, it’s a document that attempts to shift the blame of his actions onto his targets, which is classic behavior for someone truly unbalanced. But I tend never to trust everything I read.

            @Stacy – since I am at work I don’t want to raise any flags by looking at “nofap” – what is it? Do I want to know?

          • tm

            Forgive the run-ons, I had too much coffee.

          • nofap is a “movement” of men attempting to give up porn. It spans across many different message boards and decends from yourbrainonporn ( look this up on youtube). I’m not sold on that guy’s “science” behind porn addication but the forums are more about moral support. Its a dumping ground of a porn users psyche, and will give any feminist enough evidence to never question the harm porn does to the human mind.

          • tm

            Hmm. Well, if it is at least making some people stop and look and behaviors that are harmful to themselves and others, I’m all for it.

          • Me

            Looks like more male navel gazing to me. (No wonder you’re all for it @tm.)

          • morag

            “By far, the largest and oldest of all classes is the sex class, AKA women. Since the sex class is too big and scary to talk about (it would threaten man’s entitlement to women’s bodies – gasp), most discussion about misogyny quickly derails into a discussion about racism or mental illness or gun control or anything but the all pervasive hatred of women.”

            THIS. Most of the time when I see people trying to turn the discussion from sexism to racism, it’s because racism includes men too, and becomes more “palpable.” But these are the same people who couldn’t care less about how misogyny intersects with racism wrt to WOC, especially in the sex industry. Or how misogyny intersects with classism, and how that contributes to the sex industry.

          • tm

            I don’t think patriarchal and infantile are categories that are mutally exclusive…

          • “is it only about the orgasm? ” If we are talking about men buying women & girls for sex than it is undoubtedly yes.

          • tm

            Is a male orgasm with a woman ever not an act of oppression? Or only/always an act of oppression within the context of prostitution? Somewhere on one of the posts a commenter noted that male/female sex was always something along the lines of a mosquito bite so I’m just wondering. But then I wonder if the B-Movie “Mansquito” traumatized someone. Maybe I misread the comment. Somewhere on one of the BDSM posts I think (?).

            @Sundazed – Men who buy time with prostitutes to sit and talk. Ever happen in reality or TV Cop Show fantasy?

            @Me – any and all internet posting as opposed to actual physical world action pretty much amounts to navel gazing.

          • Meghan Murphy

            Wait, what? How did we get to male orgasm being an act of oppression? I don’t think that’s the argument here… If men are looking for sexual pleasure selfishly and at the expense of women and think about sex in terms only of their pleasure/orgasm (which is the dynamic inherent to prostitution), it couldn’t be said to be a situation of free or liberated sexuality or one that promotes gender equality or women’s humanity. But that isn’t at all the same as saying male orgasms are “bad” or “oppressive.”

          • tm

            Totally agree.

            Since I am clearly still in the “learn me up” mode of this kind of feminism, I’m asking honest, real questions as to get a sense of what the differences are between these different schools of feminist thought/practices. I do find it fascinating that many of the readers have assumed my (biological) gender due to my responses. As a side note, it’s a dismissive tactic when someone is saying something someone else doesn’t like, boiled down to a sticky, smelly paste of essentialism. And that’s not directed at you, Meghan, in the slightest.

            I’ve identified as “tomboy” since 199-let’s-not-talk-about-it, so I walked out of that building a long-a** time ago.

  • DeutschundMusik

    One point that I haven’t seen made yet: I have watched the videos, read the available online comments he made, and read his manifesto. And there are hundreds of complaints that women rejected him. But I have not read of one time he ever actually approached a girl, asked a girl out, tried to initiate a conversation with a girl, or contacted a girl in any way that he was interested in. Girls did not initiate contact with him, that was his complaint. Part of the horror of all this is that he was never rejected, except in his mind. Nobody ever did a thing to this man other than react to his verbal physical attacks on them. As a commenter says above, he believed from his porn and MRM exposure that he was entitled to naked women fawning over him, without any effort whatever on his part. That’s how serious his sense of entitlement was.

    • You are quite right Musik…that is exactly what I tried to explain first to myself, then to others. Why this situation was so painful and enraging, out of my own experience of it.

      We need to treat that manifesto with respect because they are the words he hid from the world and only said inside himself. The words he could not speak until he was dead. They leave us rare insight to read and understand, and maybe prevent something like this in future.

      My experience was a little different, as a child of abuse who never expected anything good and a woman for whom, when you are young, getting sex really is just a matter of being half attractive and available, which takes off all the hormonal pressure and can mask a lot of the emotional pressure too (and there is your reason why spree killers are usually male too. The impossibility of a release valve for all the hormonal drives. Good luck with finding an answer to that one.).

      But I live my life by the acceptance of the fact that terrifying agony of constant passive rejection I live my life in is a situation where nobody at all is to blame.

      I am a sex worker rights activist online, you do not like me because I am on the opposing team, that is *normal* dislike. If you met me in a café you would think I was a charming funny lady…if we talked for a while you would start to find everything about me uncomfortable and disconcerting. You would still *think* I was a charming, funny lady, you *ought* to like, but you would prefer to avoid me. The fact that you cannot see why you feel that way would make you look for reasons to be hostile…all quite unconsciously.

      That is not your fault and it is no my fault either, but I had to get to be more than 30 years older than Rodgers to accept that much self awareness. At his age my head spun off in some seriously crazy directions no one needs to hear about, they just did not fixate on killing as a release. (Long story)

      His head was trying to translate what was happening to him (which trust me, is an unbearable fate to swallow) into terms he could grasp. He didn’t even *LIKE* porn if you look (I don’t either). He just believed he was entitled to what he saw around him, couples sharing experience, making out, and *sex*. If you even listen to the way he uses the word *sex* it should be pretty obvious he hadn’t got a clue how that would be for him, or what it entailed.

      He needed someone to sweep him off his feet (the way guys approach women, as they did me. I have always understood how any guy could be jealous of women for not having to be the one to make the moves) to even get to know how to kiss…because he didn’t know the steps of the dance, and couldn’t learn them however hard he tried.

      I cannot finds words to tell you how painful, enraging and frustrating that is. Most people never experience it, so they never made words for it. There is no doubt in my mind he is better off dead.

      The trouble with knowing that you are better off dead (which does not destroy your survival instinct, your fear of death, or your sense of as much right to life as anyone, which, by he way, is a HEALTHY thing you are supposed to have)is that is DOES shift your boundaries concerning the rights of others.

      If the world would not leave him a tolerable place to live through no fault of his own, why should he let anyone else live? That is how it feels inside…I have been there…and there are not many effective arguments against it.

      We need to FIND an effective argument against that and build it in to our societies…and demonising masculinity (which is born onboard and does serve some valid purposes too) will only serve to do the exact opposite. Telling someone he is worthless because he cannot feel and be the way your women’s group says he should will not make anyone respect your existence.

      Often the killings are the adrenaline trigger that gives a desperate soul the courage to end a life unliveable.

      But people, all people, are worth a lot more than being someone else’s adrenaline trigger so that they can get past their survival instinct and rest in peace.

      • “The impossibility of a release valve for all the hormonal drives. Good luck with finding an answer to that one.”

        How about a big dab of plumber’s putty”

      • Clemdane

        You’re a man, clearly.

        • And, you came to this crap conclusion how? You’re confused, clearly.

  • Gynocide and homicide could have been prevented if the police did their job. They had ample reason to get a search warrant and confiscate weapons. They had ample evidence to order an involuntary psychiatric assessment. Mental Health professionals, the mother, and Elliott Rodger all tipped them off. They decided they knew more than experts or the parents. Ask a terrorist if he/she is going to go on a killing spree and believe them when they are savvy enough to politely tell you: “no”. The police in so many cities and countries do not take their jobs seriously and do not LISTEN to responsible citizens who seek to do what is right. Parents must teach sons not to rape, not to objectify women, not to act like kings and Gods. Affection and intimacy are not rights and privileges. They are earned by being respectful, trustworthy, decent human beings. End of story.

  • Missfit

    This is so ridiculous. As in the problem is not that this person thought that ‘hot’ women should unilaterally satisfy him, the problem they see is that no such woman did!

    I guess we should legalize prostitution and make massive proganda for recruitment in ‘hot’ sororities. How many young women would we have to enroll for the task of servicing entitled misogynists like him? How many should we traffic and coerce to satisfy the demand (because we can’t take any chance that a man who does not have his desires met will go on a killing spree)? Let’s not care about the physical, psychological and emotional well-being of prostitutes who have to deal with entitled porn sick misogynists. This man (who is not bad looking) was rejected by women probably because of his bad vibe. But let’s prostitutes deal with him (like men do not turn their rage on prostitutes). We wouldn’t want men to change their entitled outlook on women and sex, instead let’s have a class of woman who can’t say no. Because prostitutes don’t go shooting people. No, they don’t think they’re God.

    • “This man (who is not bad looking) was rejected by women probably because of his bad vibe.”

      I was just discussing this with someone yesterday. While it’s true that abusers, rapists, murderers and other sociopaths don’t wear signs, that doesn’t mean that women don’t sometimes just KNOW, on sight, that a man is bad news.

      Rodger was not bad looking at all, but he was still icky, still ugly. There are certain smug expressions that settle into muscles of a raging narcissist’s face. These features are visible, and seem to be permanent. Too many girls and women are called judgemental bitches when they reject men based on their looks. They are afraid of being viewed as uppity and mean, and they are afraid of being punished for this crime of female “arrogance.” But this cultural demand that women give icky men “a chance” has nothing to do with the feel-good cliche about not “judging a book by its cover”; it is yet another way to get women to ignore their intuitions, anxieties and fears. These platitudes about plain or homely men being the nice guys, potentially the best heterosexual partners, are nothing but another tool from the tool box used to control women and benefit men.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Yes. Women learn not to trust themselves — that they are crazy, etc. It’s part of how we end up with abusers. Our ability to trust ourselves has been whittled away for so long — when we do reject a man we’re accused of having a ‘victim mentality’ or of being irrationally fearful or of not being able to ‘trust’ (i.e. we are told we have baggage we can’t get over — we are damaged women). When we don’t trust those feeling, though, we end up with abusive men, questioning whether or not we are just paranoid or projecting our own ‘damage’ on to these supposedly perfectly decent men.

      • Clemdane

        Men are never asked to “just give her a chance” when it’s a plain or overweight woman. No one says, “But she’s so nice! She deserves a hot guy because she’s kind to animals and old people.”

        • That’s so true. I think that gets back to Meghan’s Seth Rogan article, men get programmed to standards of beauty and these directors are willing accomplices in reinforcing male entitlement.

    • Clemdane

      No guys asked me out through all of High School. I didn’t have a date till college. Maybe I should have gunned down all the good-looking football players who dated cheerleaders instead of me.

    • tm

      Of course female prostitutes shoot people.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Ok. This comment is trolly, tm. Not only do female prostitutes not go on shooting sprees, but FEMALES — as a whole — don’t go on shooting sprees.

        • tm

          Not meant to be trolly, I swear! I’m just a stickler when it comes to sweeping categorizations, for bad or for “good”. And agree that there are no female spree-killers that I know of. My objection to statements like “group of x people never does x thing” because it’s just the same myth-building process that got us into this patriarchal mess.

          • Meghan Murphy

            It’s not a generalization. The exception doesn’t make the rules. You can’t counter every argument with, “BUT ONCE!”

          • tm

            Well, more than one biologically female prostitute has shot someone. But no spree-killers. Folie a Deux incidents don’t count in my book.

            “Because prostitutes don’t go shooting people.” – that’s the statement I’m contending.

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  • Samantha

    I hate to make this point, but prostitution has existed since there was non-tribal culture (which bought and sold women as property, instead of letting women make the profits themselves). Many famous feminists have been pro-prostitution, and actually in places where there are very disproportionate male to female ratios, as in many more males, the rate of rape has been shown to rise/be quite a bit higher. Further emphasizing the natural existence of prostitution, was a study conducted with primates in which “money” (clamshells) were introduced into their society– and guess what happened? Monkey prostitution. Almost immediately.
    Not all prostitutes are the equivalent of sex slaves, and in many times in history they have been venerated with perks, such as education– not to mention, money! I don’t know why anyone would be so against women being able to voluntarily participate in a system that allows them to benefit (excusing situations wherein they don’t — like pimps); in fact what you’re suggesting seems to sound a lot like restricting women’s freedom, not supporting it. I agree with nearly all of the rest of your message, and I’m happy to get you links to any of the information that I’ve quoted, but as irrelevant as I think the legality of prostitution is to this shooting, and as disturbing as it is, I think it would be wise to consider that you aren’t a man (neither am I) and don’t know what their biology feels like to experience, other than that it’s powerful enough to have propagated our entire species for millions of years. Male entitlement does exists, as does rape culture, of course. But saying that consensually allowed sexual acts should be banned because man’s need for sex is a symptom of entitlement, in my view doesn’t accurately represent the species, and is furthermore a sort of a moral pandering that does not seem logically connected to the rights of women. Also, everyone knows legalization of an industry makes it safer– and sex slavery is a horrible thing. Just saying.

    • Meghan Murphy

      There are many cultures throughout history wherein prostitution did not exist. Indigenous women were prostituted by European men, when they came to colonize what is now known as Canada. They were not prostituted before then.

    • Of course legalization just makes it all better! Go talk to women working in flat rate brothels in Germany. Read about the increase in trafficking following legalization in The Netherlands. I really don’t give a damn about depriving some privileged women of the “choice” to engage in prostitution. Your choice is worth less that a single rape of even one trafficked or coerced woman.

    • nightcap

      “prostitution has existed since there was non-tribal culture”

      So has slavery.

      “Further emphasizing the natural existence of prostitution, was a study conducted with primates in which ‘money’ (clamshells) were introduced into their society– and guess what happened? Monkey prostitution.”

      Sure, there are a number of species where females exchange sex for food or other resources. Why? Because the males have control over those resources.

      Instead of drawing simple parallels between species, one might try to understand the context in which certain behaviors occur. In this case what the researcher saw was one male capuchin monkey in the act of giving a token to a female, the monkeys then copulated, and the female then exchanged the token for a grape. Those are the details of this incident as I have read them.

      Now when a capuchin comes into estrus, she will solicit males for sex (males seldom solicit females), and sometimes the alpha male will guard the food source so the female will solicit him many times in order to maximize her feeding (aside: one thing I have learned in reading about primate sexuality is that although primates tend to copulate a lot, many of these copulations apparently do not result in ejaculation, which I find an interesting challenge to the way that humans conceptualize sex). In this case the researcher did not see who solicited whom and did not note if the female was in estrus at the time (the point of the study was to see if capuchins can understand the concept of money and make rational monetary decisions), so it’s difficult to evaluate this incident in the context of normal capuchin sociosexuality.

      “in many times in history they have been venerated with perks, such as education– not to mention, money!”

      Yes, a few women benefit individually from prostitution. That doesn’t mean women as a class benefit from prostitution as a social structure. For example prostitution reduces female mate choice. If men control the resources that women need to thrive, then women will mate more with the men who have those resources–men who may or may not be the men that women would choose if they had control over those resources themselves.

      “it would be wise to consider that you aren’t a man (neither am I) and don’t know what their biology feels like to experience, other than that it’s powerful enough to have propagated our entire species for millions of years”

      You’re assuming that the man of the postindustrial West is the same man that’s existed throughout (pre)history. Not likely. For one thing, men in postindustrial societies show significantly higher testosterone levels than men in pre-agrarian societies. Testosterone has been shown to have effects on aggression and sexuality–though I stress that the correlation is not simple, e.g. social factors have been shown to mediate the effects of testosterone on behavior. Partly this could be due to environment. Higher testosterone levels suppress immunity, which is a bigger factor when one is regularly exposed to diseases and parasites and doesn’t have the benefit of Western medicine. The other possible cause is behavior, i.e. aggressive behavior raises testosterone.

      As with the comparison to other species, we are neither exactly the same nor entirely different from our forebears. Trying to understand how we are alike and how we are different sheds more light on the range of human psychology, sociality and sexuality than claiming evolutionary essentialism.

      • Clemdane

        It would be interesting to see how the female capuchins behave when they are given all the clamshells in the first place.

    • lizor

      “I hate to make this point, but prostitution has existed since there was non-tribal culture (which bought and sold women as property, instead of letting women make the profits themselves).”

      Um, no worries on hating to make that point because you are not making any point at all. Do you even know what you mean by “non-tribal culture”? Do you realize that there is no such category?

      “Further emphasizing the natural existence of prostitution, was a study conducted with primates in which “money” (clamshells) were introduced into their society– and guess what happened? Monkey prostitution. Almost immediately.”

      Every time someone trots out a citation of some sort of animal behaviour (inevitably some species that they themselves have had zero interaction with) to “naturalize” violent and exploitive human behaviour, I know I am reading the words of someone whose knowledge does not expand beyond what’s posted on Gawker.

      “you aren’t a man (neither am I) and don’t know what their biology feels like to experience”. Yeah… and how can we ever know what happens inside the minds of males of our own species?? If only they could talk, or interact or write or something…

      Honestly, this comment is so idiotic it’s sad.

      • anaeli

        You know, on of the forums that forum Rodger frequented (wizardchan), someone made the argument that rape was a perfectly viable mating technique and completely natural, because it could be observed in other species. So there’s that.

    • “I think it would be wise to consider that you aren’t a man (neither am I) and don’t know what their biology feels like to experience”

      Men do not have a biological need for sex.

      Repeat after me.

      Men do not have a biological need for sex.
      Men do not have a biological need for sex.
      Men do not have a biological need for sex.
      Men do not have a biological need for sex.
      Men do not have a biological need for sex.
      MEN DO NOT HAVE A BIOLOGICAL NEED FOR SEX!

      • This is why sex education can’t be just a one day talk in biology class. Sex isn’t just about the functioning of organs or the use of birth control. Sex overlaps the fields of psychology, philosophy, economics and sociology. Wants Vs Needs. We need things to survive; we want things that aren’t necessary for survival.

        • I do think you are quite right on that! That’s a great statement.

      • tm

        Hmm. I don’t think anyone “needs” sex, but it certainly makes life more fun, if you enjoy it.

        Although, there is some science these days that points to regular ejaculation heading off prostate cancer in men. Interesting. But if any guy tells you he needs porn to ejaculate, or a sex partner of any kind to ejaculate, that’s a big ole fib.

      • tm

        Maybe not a biological need, but it sure seems to have a ton of health benefits (physical/psychological), which might indicate that our bodies do better with it. Like, both kinds of bodies, and even the ones in-between. Soooooo… yeah.

        For what it’s worth, grain of salt, etc. : http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/guide/sex-and-health

        I do think it’s interesting that the majority of contributors to the article have lady-parts. And have somehow managed to become doctors! But, clearly a choice on the part of that website to cite these doctors and these particular studies.

        • Men do not have a biological need for sex.

          • tm

            Do people?

          • I don’t speak for anyone but men, because I am one. A woman can answer your question for women I’m sure.

    • Prostitution is not the oldest profession. That would be husbandry.

      • kingdomofevil

        Hmm… I suppose land management would appear to be a more basic need than prostitution, so you could be right.

        • Prostitution is not a need. And, husbandry covers a whole lot more than just land management.

          It is the co-option of the innovations of agriculture and domestication of animals developed by women. It is the one-on-one (or more in the case of polygamy) supervision of women, husbands being the foot soldiers in patriarchy’s war on women.

          The history of civilization in a nut(sack)shell: Husbandry led to the enslavement of women in order to control the reproduction of humans, which led to more farm workers, which led to surplus, which led to war in order to rob the surplus of others, which led to even more enslavement of the women of other communities. MisMANagement all the way around.

          If husbandry did not exist, prostitution would not exist.

        • marv

          It could also be that animal husbandry is one of the oldest oppressions.

  • This is an example of how patriarchy destroys everyone, including Elliot. Think about this mindset for a second. This guy felt so pressured to get laid and found the loving arms of a misogynist hate group to “assist”. Elliot was taught that sex was the highest ideal for self worth, couldn’t understand why he wasn’t getting laid, and then sought assistance from a terrorist organization on how to fuck hotties. When we couldn’t resolve the cognitive distance, it became better to kill the objects he couldn’t fuck. This is patriarchy in the raw. It answers everything women need to know about PUA, MRA and misogynists everywhere. Turning boys into uncaring fuck-first opportunists. And God help you if you don’t put out.

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  • Gaia

    Elliot’s thought process represents most men but perhaps not to the extreme of mass murder. This just goes to show how men think that they are entitled to woman’s body if they treat them a certain way. Now, this is where the “friend zone” issue comes into place. Most men feel that if they are kind and polite to woman then they must get sex in return. Should a woman reject a man’s advances, her life is in potential danger now. Women can no longer say no without fear of being harassed because some men just can’t take no for an answer. It’s funny how if a man says “no”, then that’s that. No discussions. Why can’t it be like that for women?

    Also, saying this mass murder as an excuse for the legalization of prostitution is sickening in my eyes. Prostitution is just another way that men can get easy access to a woman’s body whenever he pleases. What is even more sickening is that some of those statements are being made by women. I don’t mean to be harsh or anything but I don’t care if prostitution is a woman’s choice or not. It shouldn’t happen. That is exactly what misogynists want. Access to woman’s body whenever they please. You cannot on one hand argue that men should stop having this sense of entitlement to a woman’s body and on the other support prostitution. It just doesn’t work that way.

    • The irony is that the PUA community likely chastises Elliot because the “friend zone” is a place where sex is a low probability event. Achieving friendship status demonstrates poor tactical maneuvering against their “targets”. Because who the hell would ever want to be friends when you can’t fuck them right away!? Sex is always the desired outcome, an entitlement rewarded for those men playing the game to win sex. That’s what women are to these assholes, a sexual prize – nothing more.

      • reality

        Stacy – If “FRIENDZONE” is used correctly, try to imagine that good guys have to maneuver themselves from showing “failure” with women and being victimized for being too nice. Punishment awaits around every corner if you are not the right kind of “alpha”. Only “assholes” get to play.

    • anonomega

      “I don’t mean to be harsh or anything but I don’t care if prostitution is a woman’s choice or not. It shouldn’t happen. ”

      This is exaclty my problem with radical feminists. Or at least those who hold this view. You basically admit that your concern is not only with women who have been exploited. Even if its the womans choice, you dont want it to happen. It’s infuriating to thing that people find some inherent evil in men being able to pay for sex.

      I dont care if sex is not a need like food or oxygen is. Sex is always going to be extremely important part of life. Ideally, everyone should be able to enjoy it and it should not be hard to obtain. Thus, a persons sexual enjoyment should NOT solely depend on whether someone else finds them fuckable; if easier ways of obtaining this can be attained without directly harming or violating another, then it should be made available. If people are to be denied this important source of happiness, it should not be because of someones ideology of what sex “should” be.

      • NitroGirl

        “It’s infuriating to thing that people find some inherent evil in men being able to pay for sex. ”

        Well we live in a patriarchy. It’s not evil,it’s exploitative of women who are either impoverished,addicted,or both. These men know they can’t have any kind of sex with a woman outside of “paid-for-sex”,because the things they request would have them labeled for the sick fucks they truly are and thrown out of the bedroom. It is inherently misogynist for men to purchase sex from women,and men k now this,hey just like to lie their asses of and say they like to cheat on their wives and exploit women in the name of Feminist “empowerment”. He is actively participating,perpetuating patriarchy.

        Men are not entitled to a fuck,and if they are unattractive,weird,creepy,unhygienic,they should suck it the fuck up and start taking in some self-reflection and make changes for themselves. You know,like how they tell us women in media and everyday life. We do more than our fair share of upkeep on ourselves and our bodies,to the point of self-destruction,yet men like Rodger can’t even be bothered to stop being a dick long enough for a woman to tolerate him enough to have sex with him.

        It’s infuriating to think that men are entitled to a wheel of pussy and people are actually supporting this dated,misogynist notion—this is the kind of shit that breeds men like Rodger and Sodini in the first damn place.

        • Anonomega

          “These men know they can’t have any kind of sex with a woman outside of “paid-for-sex”,because the things they request would have them labeled for the sick fucks they truly are and thrown out of the bedroom.”

          Ever occur to you that maybe the things arent “sick” theyre just different? And how do you know its all about doing sick stuff. Dont you think that maybe some johns just want to experience sexual touching…or know what its like to even KISS a girl?

          Oh right….the men who cant experience those things without paying are in their situation because they DESERVE it right? I guess u̶n̶n̶a̶t̶r̶a̶c̶t̶i̶v̶e̶ ̶w̶e̶i̶r̶d̶ ̶c̶r̶e̶e̶p̶y̶ guys who are socially awkward and not successful, fit, or “charming” are morally undeserviing. You assume all johns get off on dominating women. You assume Elliot was a “dick” to women and thats what drove them off. Just like many people here assume the reason Elliot couldnt get into a relationship was because he was narcassistic and psycopathic. As if no man with those traits ever attracted women. I guess its comforting to think this.

          The irony is that many feminists love to trash the “Nice Guy” syndrome and say that you dont get sex just for being nice. And yet they unkowingly perpetuate this very stereotype by saying: “Oh this guy snapped cause he couldnt get laid? Well OBVIOUSLY the reason no one wanted him was because he was entitled, psychopathic, didnt see women as human, or some other moral character flaw!”

          If you truly believed that sex is not that important, and that being nice doesnt mean you get sex, then why do you feel the need to reassure yourselves that every involuntary celibate man must have some character flaw that makes him morally undeserving?

          • stephen m

            @Anonomega:

            Your Quote:
            “Ever occur to you that maybe the things arent “sick” theyre just different? And how do you know its all about doing sick stuff.”

            Please read Rebecca Mott:
            http://rebeccamott.net/2014/05/12/four-thought/

            Excerpt: “It was not rare for me to have my head held down in a bath or a toilet as a punter would rape me from behind.” etc. etc.

            Seriously, do some reading before you continue to embarrass yourself with your ignorance!

          • Anonomega

            Yes because I’m sure thats how ALL johns are (rolleyes).

          • amongster

            that is your response to what a survivor has to tell you about her experience as a prostitute? wow. you probably just like to hear the “success stories”, make you feel better about men who buy sex, huh. your attitude is really disgusting.

          • Anonomega

            Yes that is my response and if you paid attention and understood the context….

            My general point was that say what you will about punters, they have varying reasons for seeing a prostitute and not all of them have a desire to humiliate and brutalize a woman. stephen m responded with that link and I pointed out that it fails to completely debunk my position.

            Now can anyone give any sort of argument to anything I commented without taking what I said completely out of context and resorting to insults?

          • Missfit

            So what if not ALL johns are like that? Does hoping that the next john might not be like that erases the trauma of the experience? What’s your point?

          • stephen m

            @Anonomega:

            As predicted you embarrassed yourself again.

          • Anonomega

            Funny I dont feel embarrassed. Maybe because you havent given me a reason to respect your dissaproval.

          • Meghan Murphy

            Ok this isn’t productive. Stick to the points/arguments pls.

          • You are a creep. Sex is not an issue of “deserving” or of “morality.” You are not owed sex by virtue of existing. Stop thinking that a morally good person “deserves” sex. Women do not exist to reward you. You fucking creep asshole.

          • Anonomega

            Wow way to completely miss the point. And if you actually read what I wrote, you’d realise what your accusing me of doing is the very thing I was criticising (not all) feminists of doing.

            If you say that a creep would state that someone was morally deserving of sex.
            So isnt someone a bigger creep to say if your not having sex you are morally undeserving? Because thats what I’m getting from these commenters.

            You say that sex is not an issue of deserving or morality.
            Than can you accept the possibility that there are GENUINELY nice good men who respect women but who nonetheless are involuntary celibate? Because its seems that many radical feminists refuse to acknowledge this.

            Now can you actually read my comments?

          • Lo

            “Than can you accept the possibility that there are GENUINELY nice good men who respect women but who nonetheless are involuntary celibate? Because its seems that many radical feminists refuse to acknowledge this.
            There is no sin in simply saying that good people deserve good things. Sex is not exempt from this.”

            So you’re saying that single men who are nice deserve sex. Because they’re “””nice””” (the famous “”nice guy”” huh) they can dehumanize and objectify women as much as they want.
            Because yes, saying that people owe you sex, for x reasons, is dehumanization/objectification.
            If you really think of someone as your equal, you don’t think of them as some “tool” or “reward” or whatever, you don’t own/deserve anything/anyone. End of.

            BTW, Francois Tremblay did not miss your point, what he said was the right answer: “Sex is not an issue of “deserving” or of “morality.” You are not owed sex by virtue of existing. Stop thinking that a morally good person “deserves” sex. Women do not exist to reward you.”

          • Anonomega

            “Because yes, saying that people owe you sex, for x reasons, is dehumanization/objectification.”
            Your seeing entitlement where it’s not there.

            There is a CLEAR difference between saying

            “She deserves sexual satisfaction, and in a perfect world she would get it”.

            …and saying anyone OWES you sex!

            I’m going to assume that you understand this, but you feel that there shouldn’t be a difference. That the first statement is still “entitlement”.

            You want sex to be seen as this frivolous luxury. One that people (namely men) should be willing to completely starve themselves of. They can only allow themselves to enjoy it when others…through desire…grant it to them. The decision to grant and deny is to be completely accepted without a word of complaint.

            Now I’m not saying I disagree with this 100%

            But you want this attitude to be so strong and prevalent, you want it beaten so hard over the heads of people (namely men),…..you want sex to be so unimportant, such a non-issue, that even the idea of “deserving” (which isn’t the same thing as entitlement) would dare not be mentioned?!

            No one, particularly men, is going to be that nonchalant about sexual/romantic fulfillment. To demand that people trivialize their sexual needs to that extent is to invoke a sexually repressive/shame based ideology. We assign values of deserving and undeserving to everything that is important, good and worthwhile, whether we have an entitlement to them or not, whether we rely on others to provide them or not. Sex should not be exempt from the idea “Good people deserve good things” because guess what, sex is extremely important to many people and no diatribes about entitlement are going to change that.

            “If you really think of someone as your equal, you don’t think of them as some “tool” or “reward” or whatever, you don’t own/deserve anything/anyone. -E-n-d- -o-f-.”
            You have to accept the fact that in many ways human beings rely on other human beings to provide for their needs and wants. Acknowledging this is not objectification, and you cannot expect people to erase it from their mentality. Deal with it.

          • Lo

            When someone thinks that others should do something for them because they “””deserve it””” then it is objectification.
            No one has to do something for others just because some people think they “deserve” it or whatever their excuses may be.

            “You have to accept the fact that in many ways human beings rely on other human beings to provide for their needs and wants. Acknowledging this is not objectification, and you cannot expect people to erase it from their mentality. Deal with it.”

            Nah, I am going to be critical about everything, I’m not an essentialist (I’m not sure you know what essentialism is, but whatevs) and feminism is about fighting oppressing institutions/ideology like yours. YOU deal with it.

            Objectification is objectification. I already said it:
            “If you really think of someone as your equal, you don’t think of them as some “tool” or “reward” or whatever, you don’t own/deserve anything/anyone. ” I think it is quite clear.

            BTW, have you ever heard about social construct/culture/indoctrination/etc?
            (rethorical question)

          • “you’d realise what your accusing me of doing is the very thing I was criticising (not all) feminists of doing.”

            So you’re not only projecting, but now you’re basically admitting that you’re projecting. And blaming ME for it! Wow!

            You are one slick piece of shit.

            “If you say that a creep would state that someone was morally deserving of sex.
            So isnt someone a bigger creep to say if your not having sex you are morally undeserving?”

            No, it’s not as creepy because it doesn’t involve telling women to have sex with someone for the sake of being “deserving.” It is a still very shitty thing to do, and it shouldn’t be done. But it doesn’t excuse you being creepy as hell.

            “Than can you accept the possibility that there are GENUINELY nice good men who respect women but who nonetheless are involuntary celibate?”

            Don’t give me that incel bullshit. That’s just more woman-hating. I don’t want to hear about it! They can’t be “nice” people if they willingly participate in that community.

          • Anonomega

            Involuntary celibacy is not a “community” it is a state of being. And it seems (not all) feminists are trying to eliminate it as a something worthy of a name.

            I responded to Lo on the issue of “deserving”. Much of what I said can be applied to the notion of Involuntary celibacy somehow not being worthy of mention.

          • I agree: the incel community should be eliminated because it is inherently pro-entitlement and anti-feminist. The fact that you support it just goes to show how far down the hole you are.

          • tm

            “Eliminated”? In what manner?

          • Anonomega

            Trying to eliminate this term is insideous as it is one of the few terms to describe the situation that is not derogatory, has negative connotations, or trivialises the problem (“loser”, “foreveralone”, “dried up spinster”)

            It is a clear case of using language to vilify and marginalise a group.

          • Of course I want to vilify and marginalise the group. Duh.
            They’re not even “good guys.” They’re just scum.

          • Anonomega

            You realise that there are a number of WOMEN who want to have a sexual relationship but cant. So they cant even have the dignity of having a polite term to describe them? Lol so in the name of “feminism” theyre all gonna be called “uggos”, “losers” and “spinsters”. I thought you cared about women. I thought you didnt want them to be stigmatised based on what does or does not happen to their vagina. Well I guess alongside willing sexworkers and porn stars, involuntary celibate women can be added as another group of women radfems will throw under the bus.

          • “Well I guess alongside willing sexworkers and porn stars, involuntary celibate women can be added as another group of women radfems will throw under the bus. ”
            Wrong on all three counts. I support the right of the 10% of privileged willing prostitutes to continue doing what they do, and I support porn stars right to a safe workplace. And stop peddling this incel bullshit by trying to tar women with it.

          • reality

            Right! There CANNOT be genuinely good men who respect women but are nonetheless involuntarily celibate? Maybe they are voluntarily celibate and do not bother ANYBODY — except for Francois Tremblay. They must be punished, right away!

          • “Right! There CANNOT be genuinely good men who respect women but are nonetheless involuntarily celibate?”
            Nope.

            “Maybe they are voluntarily celibate and do not bother ANYBODY — except for Francois Tremblay. They must be punished, right away! ”
            When did I say anything about “voluntary” celibacy? IN-CEL stands for INVOLUNTARY, you moron.

          • Lo

            “Right! There CANNOT be genuinely good men who respect women but are nonetheless involuntarily celibate?”

            No.

            Saying “involuntarily celibate” is the proof you don’t even respect women’s choice not to date you (or anyone).

            Enough said.

          • Anonomega

            Get this through your head

            “Involuntary celibacy” is nothing more or less than a polite term to describe people who want to have sex but are unable to obtain a partner.
            It has nothing to do with entitlement
            It did not originate with the MRA
            People deserve to have the dignity of having a polite term to describe their situation.
            Ok… but since you derailed the topic I was presenting…once again…how about I use a different term, and lets see if you can stay on track and give a real answer.

            Now read slowly now..

            Do you….or do you not believe…..in the possibility….that there are men….who are genuinely nice….who genuinely respect women (and men)…….and DESPITE being good men….are still….sexually unsuccessful….anyway?

          • Ellesar

            Anonomega – your comment makes no sense. Women are not denied ‘dignity’ because we do not feel the need to create a bunch of ‘movements’ related to our ‘success’ or ‘lack of success’ with men. I am not involuntary celibate, but I am celibate, and this is partly related to things that some men feel the need to go on to sites and moan about. I have seen no equivalent for women.

            Actually I would suggest that it is LESS dignified to use your dating/ sexual activity status as some kind of absurd community identification, and I am glad that women do not seem to feel the need to do it. Obviously a lot of men do not either.

            I really do not know how you have come to the conclusion that ‘radfems’ do not care about women because they do not accept that these ways that men are organising are legitimate support networks. All that I have seen of incel, PUA, MGTOW tells me is that there are a lot of very blamey men using feminism as a way to trash women generally. Any feminist, not just a radfem can see that these ‘movements’ are generally informed by misogyny, men who just CANNOT ACCEPT that the world has changed and most women are just not satisfied with the crumbs from the menz table anymore.

          • Anonomega

            With that out of the way…

            While it is wrong to state if you are not having sex you must be morally undeserving or vice versa, to simply state that a person may be morally deserving or undeserving of sex does NOT make you a creep. It is NOT about entitlement.

            For instance, a person may work hard and sacrifice in hopes of attaining wealth. Well in the real world hard work does not always equal success. Nobody is obligated to say “you worked hard so heres a bunch of money”. But be that as it may, it doesnt mean you can’t simply say “a hard working person ought to be wealthy”.

            Likewise, if a woman is kind and respects men and wants a relationship, I can sympathise and say “She deserves a relationship, and in a perfect world she would get one”. But me saying that doesnt mean any man is obligated to give her a relationship. It doesnt mean that men “exist to reward ” her.

            There is no sin in simply saying that good people deserve good things. Sex is not exempt from this.

          • tm

            Must we use so many personal attacks? It immediately dissipates real debate/discussion as opposed to endless shouting/shaming. Unfortunately for belief systems of all stripe, there is no monolithic standard experience set for all humans. Nor reading list.

            @FT – There is no morality component to sex? Ever? And I don’t mean in terms of a reward system either. I agree that being nice doesn’t come with a coupon book to exchange for sex. I disagree that there is not a moral issue (or issues) involved with certain kinds of sexual events. Rape, for example. Morally wrong, no? I may be going out on a limb here from your earlier comments that you would agree with that.

          • To be more specific, the amount of sex any person gets is not in itself a moral issue. That was my original point. Of course sex as a whole should be examined from an ethical standpoint and criticized.

          • tm

            Side question: Did he only target “pretty” girls? If so, then it’s the most chillingly clear example of the lose-lose situation women are in right now.

          • maarten

            I totally agree about too many personal attacks. I will leave this site, but I just wanted to mention that the way discussions are held here for me is disturbing (please don’t jump to any conclusions about what this says about me, because you don’t know me).

          • NitroGirl

            “Ever occur to you that maybe the things arent “sick” theyre just different? And how do you know its all about doing sick stuff. Dont you think that maybe some johns just want to experience sexual touching…or know what its like to even KISS a girl?”

            Has it ever occurred to you, that I do not give a flying pretzel shit, that men who are Johns want to experience touching or kissing a “girl” (woman,by the way) for the first time? Why should that be ANY woman’s responsibility? Why can’t he ,like many women,even when nagged to date, talk to people he’s interested in? Develop personal, meaningful romantic relationships? That is still a product of male entitlement. “I haven’t felt this,therefore I am owed sex”,and that is bullshit,you mean to tell me men can’t go out there and find a girl to kiss them on the cheek for free? Some just pay to get cuddled? Even if so,again, that doesn’t make up for their entitlement and the male violence women face in prostitution.
            .
            “You assume all johns get off on dominating women. You assume Elliot was a “dick” to women and thats what drove them off. Just like many people here assume the reason Elliot couldn’t get into a relationship was because he was narcissistic and psychopathic. As if no man with those traits ever attracted women. I guess its comforting to think this.”

            It’s not a matter of opinion that Elliot didn’t like women, it’s a FACT. I advise,before hopping on the Sympathizer Train,that you READ his little “Manifesto”, he says women deserve to be put in concentration camps,raped,and how women shouldn’t be able to choose their sexual partners because they are “stupid” and don’t know what’s good for them. Many women can smell that a mile away and know who to avoid. He was his own woman repellant. What drove him off was his own misogyny and entitlement to women’s time and bodies guided by Anti-Woman media and websites encouraging his hatred. He HATED women, he BLAMED women for his miserableness because of HIS OWN shortcomings. Yes there are women who have been unfortunately attracted to men with abusive traits—that doesn’t make it right.

            You keep going on about “morally deserving”, but you keep failing tremendously on realizing that, women are fucking PEOPLE. With THOUGHTS,and FEELINGS. Women aren’t just going to drop their underwear down from their hips and start fucking you simply because you showed up with a dick and a smile ,even in a casual sex deal,you have to at the very least,not be a woman-hating monster and have enough character and charisma to make her want to sleep with you. It’s common-place to make the female comfortable enough to want to sleep with you,and that includes being respectful (or at least it should) and attractive in some way.

            The REAL irony is that you are behaving exactly like an entitled male (hell,you probably are one.). And honestly that is the type of man you want around your “beloved” sex workers,in favor of your “Incel” (it’s called a dry spell,ffs,special broflakes) brothers—someone who thinks women are “too stupid to consent” and should be “forced to breed and put in concentration camps”. You’re a real star,champ. I don’t care about your MRA hogwash and no, I don’t believe in “misandry” either (to that other poster who seems to be forgetting this is not the type of Feminist blog where that comment would actually not be laughed into dust. Women who purchase sex from men are in the minority, and that is not the topic.) Long story short,it’s not women’s job to solve your blue balls issues,or your “I need a Laydee To Hold Me”. Stop pulling an Elliot Rodger–making your problems and failures women’s problem.

            This conversation is over,because you used the word “involuntary celibacy”, that Blue Balls Misogynist Cultist bullshit is not worth the time or patience in seriously engaging. Peace out.

        • maarten

          >> It is inherently misogynist for men to purchase sex from women

          I know it’s rare for women to buy sex from men, but the few that do this, do you think they are inherently misandrist?

          • Ellesar

            How could it even be considered to be an equal act as a woman paying a man for sex? With that in mind a fair comparison just cannot be drawn – the 2 acts, whilst ostensibly the same are worlds apart in just about every single way.

            BTW – just looked up ‘incel’ – found a crazy misogynist blog straight away. What is it with these ‘mens movements’? Raving and raving about feminists and misandry, when really their problem is women in general, and the fact that in the modern world women tend NOT to feel inferior to men any longer!

          • Anonomega

            An excellent point (I’m talking about maarten) derailed once again.

            We have to stop this bullshit of “its different when x does to y then when y does to x”. Its really only an excuse for the “oppressed minority” groups to exercise their hatred and bigotry.

          • Ellesar

            No, it really isn’t an excuse. There are so many reasons that it is not the same thing – far too many to bother going into, suffice to say that men have never in human history been subject to ownership by marriage to women. Starting from that POV a ‘rental’ is just an extension of that way of thinking of women as (temporary) property.

      • “It’s infuriating to thing that people find some inherent evil in men being able to pay for sex. ”

        Then I hope you will remain furious forever, for all our sakes. Because the minute there’s no more quarrel about prostitution and everyone is in favor of it, any hope for female dignity is over and done with.

      • an30o

        “Ideally, everyone should be able to enjoy it and it should not be hard to obtain.”

        In an article taking about entitlement that’s quite a broad statement. So what, we should accept that part of the population has to be prostituted so that the other part can enjoy good sex ? We should sacrifice some people to get the happy fun sex ? Problem is this is what breed domination, the idea that something is needed, that some people are entitled to it, and naturally that some other must open theirselves to this need. And guess what, it’s always the already weaker ones who will be sacrificed.

        Ideally, we won’t have to sacrifice part of the population so that high society and privileged people gets their kick-off ! There is this thing called masturbation too…

  • Chrissy

    Hey Meghan

    I usually lurk on your cite instead of comment, but I ran across a video that I thought you would be interested in. This is a woman who is interested in leaving prostitution and is not necessarily for the legalization of it.

    She also talks about prostitution from a racial perspective.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85ifnc2uehI#t=465

    I am not sure if you allow links, but I am going to post it anyway.

  • rmott62

    “Real women failed to live up to the expectations created for him by pornography. So he killed some.”

    I find that comment very disturbing – for yet again it appears porn is only viewed as harmful and worth fighting if “real women” are attacked.
    I know most men see women in that way, but it disturbs me that the women inside are seen as sub-human even by some women.
    Too many people make the women in porn into goods, that cannot leave the screen or the page. Women inside porn are not unreal, their lives matter – we will never succeed in ending male violence until we see that.
    I get tired of going to anti-porn events or reading anti-porn articles, that speak of everything expect the conditions that is happening to the women inside porn. We must confront and know that women in porn are tortured, raped and murdered – and those who are lucky to exit have to live with extreme trauma, some the worse forms of trauma that any human can experience.
    I fight porn for those women first and foremost. Partly because I filmed for porn when I was prostituted, partly for the women that I personally knew who were destroyed by the porn industry – but mainly to end the terrible silence about the conditions for all women inside porn.

    • Meghan Murphy

      The meaning of that sentence was not to say that women in porn aren’t ‘real woman’ but that the women men see in porn are fantasies — those men don’t see real women, they are offered fantasies. The real world is not not like porn. Women don’t actually enjoy being degraded and face-fucked. Women aren’t actually two-dimensional sex objects — not women in porn, not women outside porn.

      • tm

        Come to LA. Outside of every nightclub there are 14 bazillion women who have dressed themselves/made themselves look like the porn stars. It’s sorta appalling. And what I always thought was hilarious/deeply troubling about that whole “Jersey Shore” TV Show was that you had an entire population (male and female) that were molding themselves to look like porn stars. Depressing. The spray tans… the spray tans…

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  • Reefanga

    “If you are a young, dark-featured male and can’t get laid in SoCal, then you must be gay or a super-creepy nutcase who does things to send girls running. These girls did not reject this kid, they ran scared from him.”

    ^^^THIS

    • maarten

      I think it’s likely that he came to the same conclusion.

  • Komal

    There appears to be a perceived tension between the motivations of empathizing with and understanding Elliot Rodger, and calling out his misogyny and male entitlement. I hope this doesn’t sound obvious, but one can do both. Sexual frustration, loneliness and a general sense of rejection may have contributed to his inner problems, but his sense of entitlement as a male made him respond to and express his inner problems in a certain way. Those females, aspie and otherwise, who are empathizing with him by claiming that they know what it’s like to face that kind of rejection, are actually confirming our (Meghan, etc.’s) point, since they are examples of people who had many of the same emotional and social difficulties but who nevertheless did not respond in the same violent way, because they did not have the same sense of entitlement and were not misogynists.

  • Ellesar

    It never occurred to me for a second that using the services of a prostitute was the answer for Rodgers – as it was so clear, even from the little I have read and viewed (too creepy to do more), that his sexual frustration was not a simple case of physical needs. If so he would have found masturbation to be a relief.

    He described having a female friend at the age of 6 – his first and last. From then on he appeared to have seen girls and women as adversarial. Let’s not forget the influence of his father – just have a look at the ‘cheeky’ photo’s that Rodgers Senior has for sale – faces NOT included.

    Trophies are what he was after – but adoring supplicant trophies. I am guessing that girls and women willing and able to fulfil such a role are not common, ergo his frustration.

    Many many men dehumanise women and expect us to cater to their desires with no regard to ours. Most do not go on to kill, but many do inflict harm that they are probably barely even aware of as we are not even people to them. I wish I could say that it gets better as they get older, and certainly SOME men are much less obnoxious at 40, compared to what they were like at 20, but many more seem to get MORE focused on finding women to control, going ever younger – because that is ‘natural’, of course!

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  • tm

    Incorrect. Animal husbandry came along with transitioning from hunter-gathering cultures to sessile, agrarian cultures. And that took a while from currently available evidence.

  • Anthony McRae

    Although I consider myself a feminist in some senses of the word, reading this article has given me a pause to reconsider and reflect on what that means. Now, I won’t lie; I’ve been guilty of misogynistic thinking from time to time. In a culture that overflows with male entitlement, it’s hard to liberate one’s mind from those influences. But with that honest remark, I would like you to consider the culture of male identity that is exhibited in male entitlement. The male identity is heavily dependent on sexual prowess and social/economic success. So one’s inability to meet the expectations of the male identity can lead a person to feel depressed and unfulfilled. For example, if a guy lacks that “perfect job” or that “ideal social life”, he may think that he isn’t a “real man”. He’ll say to himself that he is a failure. Because as silly as it may sound, his male identity is an essential part of him. Therefore, this mindset of male entitlement is just an outward symptom of a deeper problem of identity and existence. Furthermore, the only viable solution to this issue is a comprehensive redefinition of both the male and female identities, which BOTH play a part in reproducing the culture of male entitlement and its harmful effects. To put it simply, men AND women must stop trying to play to their gender roles and must learn to listen to the beat of their own drummers. We need to recognize each other as people, and not as mere objects to project our sexual, social, and emotional fantasies on. As I’ve said before, real feminism is about liberation; and that real liberation begins when we look beyond our genders and see each other for who we really are… Just people.

    • Mar Iguana

      “…real feminism is about liberation; and that real liberation begins when we look beyond our genders and see each other for who we really are… Just people.”

      Yeah. Feminists figured this out a few decades ago. Go throw this pearl before your bros. Let us know how that went.

    • C.K. Egbert

      The thing is when women don’t feel like they are living up to their gender roles, they hate themselves.

      When men don’t feel like they are living up to their gender roles, they murder, rape, or abuse women to prove that they are.

      Who do you think really needs to let go of gender roles?

    • Ellesar

      Anthony – what is your issue with the article exactly? Did Meghan not give entitled men sufficient personhood?! If men have issues with their identity/ existence it is not really anything to do with women – men should be able to support each other. Problem is – often they do not, and very very often women are blamed for these issues of identity (usually worded as feminist, but it is obviously almost always referring generally to women).
      I cannot tell you how many times I have engaged with someone *as a person*, and how many times when it was a hetero male I was disappointed because it quickly became clear that he could not/ would not engage with me as a person, but as a woman, assessed on how fuckable I was to him. This has changed with age, now I can expect to be engaged with as ‘useless old crone’! It is preferable to sex object!

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