National Geographic’s ‘gender revolution’ cover fails women

This week, National Geographic announced their “historic special issue” on the so-called “gender revolution.”

But, wait! What does this revolution look like?

On one version of the cover we have a nine-year-old named Avery, who identifies as a girl. Dressed in pink from head to toe (including dyed pink hair), the child is described as “sitting pretty” by Brittney McNamara at Teen Vogue, who adds, “Avery is the perfect choice for this historic milestone.”

Some have questioned the ethics of putting such a young child on the cover of a magazine, especially if this child is truly struggling with a disorder. Also troubling is the regressive presentation of Avery, decked out in a colour and posed in a way that is traditionally considered “feminine.” McNamara claims the cover “drives the point home that being transgender isn’t a choice, but just something you are,” implying that this feminized presentation represents something innate. Rather than saying that kids are drawn to various colours regardless of their sex and that boys should feel just as comfortable in pink as girls, the supposedly “revolutionary” cover conveys the opposite message: that this male child must be a girl because he wears pink.

Where does socialization and societal expectations factor into this “revolution?” Will it address the fact that boys are told they cannot wear dresses (lest they be called “girls?”)

Avery’s mother, Debi Jackson, is a self-identified “conservative, Southern-Baptists, Republican from Alabama.” In a speech that went viral back in 2014, Jackson explained that her child “transitioned” at four-years-old, “which means she changed her outward appearance from male to female,” thereby living as “her true gender.” Jackson explains that Avery was a “rough-and-tumble boy” until he was three-years-old, but then “asked her dad and I if we could buy her a princess dress.” They did not initially buy Avery the dress, assuming “she was going through a stage of liking bright and sparkly things.” But eventually Avery’s parents gave in to persistence and bought their child the feminine clothing requested (princess dresses, sparkly shoes, nightgowns…) After the child declared he “wanted his genitals gone,” Jackson did a Google search, which informed her that her child might be transgender.

Shunned by many in their family and community due to Avery’s clothing choices, Jackson says her family “went into hiding for about a year while [Avery] grew out her hair to look like the girl that she is.” That time enabled the family to reemerge with “a daughter.”

While indeed Avery may be suffering from what the DSM calls “gender dysphoria,” having declared himself to be a girl numerous times, both Jackson’s and National Geographic’s choice to focus so heavily on a feminized appearance is telling. Conservative America wouldn’t accept a boy in “girly” clothing, but shouldn’t liberal America see things differently? And if a child truly does suffer from body dysmorphia or gender dysphoria, why are sparkles, pink, and “princess dresses” the primary focus of discourse surrounding these conditions? Surely we can support kids to be whoever they want to be and dress however they like without further reinforcing sexist stereotypes…

A second cover is no less troubling.

While the cover features a male, two “transgender females,” an “intersex non-binary” person, a “transgender male,” an “androgynous” person, and an individual who identifies as “bi-gender,” notably absent is… A woman!

Is this really what a “gender revolution” looks like? A boy whose “femaleness” is proven by stereotypically “girly” clothing and colours and an apparent rainbow of “genders” that excludes women entirely?

Gender, under patriarchy, is not the “spectrum” so many well-meaning liberals claim, but is, as feminist activist Lierre Keith says, “a hierarchy.” Gender functions in our society to devalue those born female and systemically empower those born male. A true “gender revolution” would fight stereotypes that say girls are inherently drawn to wear pink dresses and grow their hair long, while boys have short hair and are “rough-and-tumble.” It would, in fact, challenge society’s idea of gender itself, acknowledging that some humans are born female and others are born male, but that this doesn’t mean one is passive and submissive while the other is aggressive and dominant.

The trouble with gender, in any case, is not really just in the superficial — though women’s status as sex objects defines the clothing and grooming rituals we are expected to adhere to — but in our lesser status in this world and the violence we are subjected to as a means to enforce and remind us of that status. Prostitution, rape, sexual harassment, female genital mutilation (FGM), the mail-order bride industry, pornography, and domestic violence are all examples of this — none of which can be resolved by shunning pink and putting on a tie.

The group of people who most desperately need a “gender revolution” (you may recall there is already a movement afoot addressing the harm of gender — it’s called “feminism”) are women, yet National Geographic failed to acknowledge this on either cover, figuring, perhaps, that boring women and their gender troubles are old news.

But hey, celebrities loved it!

Meghan Murphy
Meghan Murphy

Founder & Editor

Meghan Murphy is a freelance writer and journalist. She has been podcasting and writing about feminism since 2010 and has published work in numerous national and international publications, including New Statesman, Vice, Al Jazeera, The Globe and Mail, I-D, Truthdig, and more. Meghan completed a Masters degree in the department of Gender, Sexuality and Women’s Studies at Simon Fraser University in 2012 and lives in Vancouver, B.C. with her dog.

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  • therealcie

    It’s always women who are cut out and ignored, whose physical issues (i.e. menstruation) are seen as a “threat” or “violent” to others.
    I believe that some people truly feel they were born the wrong gender. These people should not be ostracized, belittled, or treated poorly. However, I liken the behavior of some transgender activists to a person who says that shoe stores that sell shoes in pairs are violent towards people who only have one foot.
    People who have only one foot should not be treated poorly. They should not be ridiculed. It would be good if there were places where a person could buy a single shoe at a reasonable price. However, the majority of people do have two feet, and selling shoes in pairs is not violence against people with one foot. Similarly, the majority of people who experience menstruation are women. Referring to women as “menstruators” is demeaning.
    Leaving women off the cover of the National Geographic entirely sends a strong and bad message.
    My thoughts aren’t exactly coherent, but what it boils down to is this.
    Trans people should be acknowledged and treated with respect, not demeaned and bullied.
    However, erasing women is not the way to accomplish this.

    • Xodima

      Exactly. The cover quite clearly shows us that being born with a penis is progressive, encompassing everything male and female and everything else inbetween. That is the only way you can have eight biological males representing a gender revolution.

      • ✧ʕ̢̣̣̣̣̩̩̩̩·͡˔·ོɁ̡̣̣̣̣̩̩̩̩✧

        if you have a twitter, tweet this , @ me or follow me so i can retweet/quote you, pls! i am @yalittleshit

    • Yisheng Qingwa

      Why should I respect people who mock, belittle and erase female reality, invade female spaces; try to police the very words we use? No, I do not respect trans people. Nope.

    • Hannah

      Exactly. Funny how no female to trans people are making demands on men, telling them to shut up. And they are trying to tell us male to trans *didn’t* receive male socialization? Fuck that, we will never give in to their crap.

  • lk

    Isn’t it funny that the cover of a magazine about gender revolution only features males? I wonder how many of the people featured inside the magazine are female.

    Instead of denying biological reality, let’s just create a world where a male can wear a dress or wear pink or whatever and it is not proof that he is really a girl. There is nothing wrong with a boy liking bright and sparkly things!!

    I find it interesting that transgenderism is being touted as a revolution..what exactly is revolutionary about reinforcing sexist stereotypes?

  • Just Passing Through

    Epic Failure Nat Geo. Women can just fuck off according to you. SO ready for this gender mania to end. Women can wear pants, jeans, suits, ties & short hair and REMAIN women, so wtf gender trendies? Why can’t men wear dresses, skirts, heels, make up, or whatever the hell they want, and still be “men”.Is masculinity really so fragile that men can’t just like sparkly pink shit without “turning in their man card” ? The “rules of masculinity” need to change! Gender Bollocks! as those on the other side of the pond call it.

    • Rachel

      So well said.

  • Rachel

    What thefuck is happening?!

  • Lucia Lola

    What more proof do people need?

  • Unree

    Good insight by @HelenLewis. She is the journalist who gave us Lewis’s Law: Online comments about any article about feminism justify feminism.

  • This is what little girls go through in this world, because they are born female: a 10-year-old who was kidnapped, set on fire and thrown in an abandoned well by two adult men who tried to rape her and she fought back. That’s girlhood.

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/jharkhand-10-year-old-girl-set-on-fire-for-resisting-rape-battles-for-life/story-To3QBDZmDMyDr0O6MMXdPI.html

    Patriarchy doesn’t care if you are kind of a tomboy or super girly: it cares about your girl body… so it can exploit it. Do you think those 2 men in the story of the 10 year old in India asked her how she identified? No, because your oppressor (patriarchy) is never going to care about your feelings: that. is. the. point. of. oppression.

    The idea that dresses and sparkles is what is all about or that the key to our liberation is **dresses and sparkles** is insulting to those of us who experienced patriarchy in our ow bodies as little girls even before we knew what the words “gender” and “oppression” even meant or how to pronounce them.

    • Tired feminist

      Oh my god. Poor girl. And then people have the nerve to blame women for not fighting their rapists back.

    • Hannah

      Also, how about the fact that in China, there ended up being way more boys born than girls because of the one child policy because female fetuses were being aborted *before they had the chance to express a “gender identity”?*

      Or the fact that female genital mutilation exists. Would they leave the girls alone if they said “oh no, this isn’t female genitalia, my vulva is male!” bullshit.

  • DeColonise

    This article is amazing thank you Meghan.
    “Gender science” is pseduo science.

  • Melanie

    They also published this article in their ‘gender revolution’ edition, including a link to the transgender cover story. The irony is stunning.

    http://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/01/gender-toys-departments-piece/

  • Pod0riji7

    I’m surprised they didn’t pose the boy ironing and a prop math test with a beg red D- on it tacked to the wall behind him…or would that be to on the nose?

  • Polly MacDavid

    Well, National Geographic was bought by Rupert Mudoch in 2015, so that ended any kind of real journalism they were ever going to do. No surprises on either of those covers.

  • a virginia

    What is even more troubling is that you, Meghan, consistently refer to Avery as “he” throughout your article regardless of every quote from her family using the “she” pronoun.
    “Where does socialization and societal expectations factor into this “revolution?”
    yup, you said that. Check yourself, maybe?
    “A boy whose “femaleness” is proven by stereotypically “girly” clothing and colours….” Ugh you did it again, but worse that time.

    • Meghan Murphy

      I’m unsure about what it is you are upset about? Can you explain?

  • mail_turtle

    It’s harmful to needlessly reinforce gender roles, but in this context showing the role is relevant and unavoidable: the article is about children taking on the “opposite” gender role, which they can only show by showing what that role looks like. I don’t see how they could have written the article while avoiding the stereotype.

  • oneclickboedicea

    Wow, so half of humanity doesnt exist as of now unless they present themselves as a rainbow sex.

  • will
  • Tired

    I’m a bit conflicted on this one. One the one hand, it’s just same shit, different day (you can go back to the French revolution and see women treated worse – check out Olympe de Gouges, who wrote the ‘Declaration of the Rights of Woman and of the Female Citizen’ after the declaration of the Rights of Men and got beheaded as an enemy of the State for her trouble.) Women have always been erased from revolutions (or mentioned as the fucking and cleaning for the revolution only)

    But on the other hand, at least history will record on this instance that we weren’t part of this shit.

  • Meghan Murphy

    How has intersex been thrown under the bus, here? Also, no one was ‘misgendered’… Avery is male, whether you like it or not. He is free (or should be free) to express himself and dress however he likes, but clothing and feelings do not change sex. You say you are looking for honest discussion? That is honest. Pretending as though outward appearance or feelings alter biological sex is dishonest.

  • Meghan Murphy

    So?

  • Meghan Murphy

    I believe women make up 49.6% of the world’s population. So yes, half is accurate.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Transwomen are male. How is that ‘phobic?’ It’s simply a fact. Acknowledging biology exists doesn’t harm anyone.

    • Chloe Rae Aebersold

      Trans women are WOMEN. You misgendered the trans girl, you misgendered the women on the cover, and it feels like you’re dismissing the issues trans folks face.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Can you define “woman?” Why does it matter if we acknowledge biological sex? What is harmful in that? People should be free to express themselves however they like, regardless of biological sex, don’t you think?

      • anne cameron

        Sorry, Chloe. DNA is DNA is DNA is DNA.
        There is nothing inherently “wrong” or “bad” in transgender, why not be proud of it instead of trying to insist on “Woman” identity. DNA is DNA and if you haven’t grown up female you haven’t grown up female.
        Stand tall as “trans” and don’t try to force your beliefs down my throat.

        • Carolynn Hardwicke

          You don’t actually know their DNA. There are more than two sexes and mis gender is about gender not sex. By focusing on their “biology” you are dismissing their identity. You are claiming that what’s in their pants is more important than what’s in their heads.

          • Meghan Murphy

            But are transwomen another sex? Or are they males who identify as transwomen? I’m really not sure what the big controversy here is…

          • Topazthecat

            Because you,like they believe in the common sexist gender myth that the sexes are born with these separate minds and there is decades worth of tons of psychological research studies by different psychologists that has found that the sexes are much more psychologically alike than different in almost all of their abilities,traits and behaviors,and that they find mostly really small average differences between them,many which have gotten even smaller over several decades,and most large differences found are between *individual people*.Despite the fact that parent child development psychologists have found and demonstrated that female and male infants are actually born biologically more alike than different with only few differences,but they are perceived and treated very differently in every way by parents and other adult care givers from the moment of birth on.

          • Cassandra

            1. There are not more than two sexes.
            2. Biology is real. Nobody has any obligation to accept anyone’s “identity” any more than anyone has any obligation to believe that Mary was a virgin who gave birth to the Messiah.
            3. For female people it’s actually very important to know what’s in someone’s pants and separate ourselves from penis-in-pants in our private spaces and any other place or time we so choose. (Saying otherwise is just another facet of rape culture.)

        • Hannah

          So simple and reasonable but they want our definition so they can shut us up. How are we supposed to believe they aren’t male?

      • Tired feminist

        You won’t manage to gaslight people here as you guys usually do elsewhere. Try again with an actual argument.

      • Yisheng Qingwa

        Circular argument is CIRCULAR.

        Trans women are male. Facts. Deal with it, and give it up with the gaslighting.

      • Cassandra

        Trans women are male.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Trans women are male. That is why the ‘trans’ prefix exists.

    • Ellen Fry

      Look up intersectional feminism. Stop closing yourself off with your white feminism bubble. There’s a whole world waiting out there for you besides being angry at sex workers and men.

      • Meghan Murphy

        You very clearly have no clue what ‘intersectional’ means. Supporting a racist, misogynist, capitalist, classist industry such as the sex trade epitomizes ‘white feminism.’ Suggesting women center men in feminism is just plain misogynist. Excellent white American liberalling tho.

        • Ellen Fry

          1) Not American, here come the assumptions again.
          2) You’ve obviously never been in the sex work business, and yes, sure, hating of sex workers is definitely what I would call being intersectional *eye-roll*. Maybe talk to some sex workers (ones who have chosen to AND ones who do survival sex work) and then make your decision.
          3) Women/non-binaries should not centre men in feminism, I never suggested that?

          • Meghan Murphy

            You’re new here, huh.

          • Ellen Fry

            Yeah, thankfully haven’t had to be dealing with you T/SWERF articles for very long, but you’re about to be super educated so strap in.

          • Meghan Murphy

            lol. Bye girl.

      • Witch

        Follow your own advice and look up intersectional feminism. It was a term coined by a black woman to describe her experience in the fight against both racism and misogyny.

        Males who want to “identify” as women have nothing to do with it.

        • Hannah

          Well they already co-opt the struggles of people of colour on top of women, why not take their language as well?

      • Zuzanna Smith

        Who is angry at sexually exploited women? And why shouldn’t women be angry at men? Why should we love men, name one reason.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I agree that Avery should be able to dress however Avery likes. I would never ‘shame’ anyone for wearing pink. My argument was very clearly that wearing pink does not make one a girl. Please make your arguments with integrity or move along.

    • Mon

      Sorry if I misunderstood that point in your argument. That doesn’t change the fact that you misgendered her and referred to her as having a disorder. Nor does it change the fact that you ignored two women on the other cover. Sorry if I misunderstood, but there is still a large amount of blatant transphobia in this article, and if you can’t write about an article based on gender without being transphobic then I think you need to do a bit more research on the topic.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Gender dysphoria is a disorder, as per the DSM. Also, ‘misgendering’ is not a thing an individual can do. Gender is socially imposed. Rather than simply repeating the word ‘transphobic’ over and over again, may I suggest you make a clear argument?

        • Marla

          Gender dysphoria is a disorder

          That may be so but in order for it to be legit – at least according to DSM – the person has to be a minimum of 18 years of age. “Avery” here is simply being exploited either by a capitalist profit-driven magazine who sales are dwindling or by his parents who see Avery as a cash cow for controversial social sexual norms especially when it comes to children. Either way, people are making money off of this kid.

          • Hannah

            Well if his parents keep this up, giving him attention for thinking he is a girl, it will be so reinforced in him there will be no way out. Same as all the other parents who stick their kids on TV. Have any of those turned out well? And they’re playing with this kid’s very identity.

      • Tired feminist

        If you can’t comment on a feminist critique of identity politics without throwing “transphobic” every five seconds, then I think it’s you who need to do a bit more research on the topic…

  • Meghan Murphy

    Can you define “girl?”

  • Meghan Murphy

    You can’t identify as female. Female is biological category. I am very clearly supportive of people expressing themselves however they like. I am opposed to the idea that gender is innate or that presenting in stereotypically feminine ways makes one female.

    • anne cameron

      I do not consider Bruce Jenner to be a woman. He is not female.
      So throw little balls of shyte at me, “see if I care”…

  • Meghan Murphy

    A woman’s body is female. That is not up for debate. Sorry.

    • Ellen Fry

      Actually it is up for debate. Like there’s whole scientific studies going into this. You’re cutting yourself off again.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Science is well aware that male and female exist as biological facts.

  • Meghan Murphy

    It is not phobic to acknowledge material reality. Also, please don’t use anti-feminist slurs here or you will be banned. Thanks.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Anti-feminist slurs ≠ discussion.

  • Tired feminist

    Biology is a choice? Ok what is NOT a choice for post modernists?

  • Tired feminist

    You just barged into Meghan’s website to tell her how to behave herself on her own website? Have some manners.

  • Meghan Murphy

    TERF is a slur used to silence and smear feminists. Transwomen are not women, they are males who identify as transwomen. Feminism is a political movement aimed at liberating women from male oppression, so yes, it is “exclusive,” in the same way that every other political movement is. Yet no one goes around accusing socialists of being “capitalist-exclusive.” It is only women who are expected to put everyone else’s feelings and desires before their own liberation. That is sexism, in nutshell. Please do not condescend to me. I have been doing this work for years and thought about this issue extensively, for years, before coming to the conclusions I have and speaking out. I recommend you do some thinking and reading yourself, seeing as you clearly have not taken the time to ask questions of or consider the arguments feminists and making with regard to gender identity. Here is a place to start: http://www.feministcurrent.com/2016/09/27/need-braver-feminists-challenge-silencing/ http://www.nationalobserver.com/2016/10/25/opinion/opinion-bill-c-16-flawed-ways-most-canadians-have-not-considered

    The gender identity movement exists based on an ideology that contradicts everything feminists argue about gender and has the potential to do real damage to women’s rights. Please don’t ask us to lay down and shut up about that.

  • Julio

    There is always some coached aspect to these trans kids that are paraded before the media. It really is pretty creepy.

  • Yisheng Qingwa

    “Transphobia”=”refusing to cater to trans cult delusions”

  • Prank Fembleton

    That’s the first thing that hit me- the pose, the hand. Sweet jesus the whole composition is just skeevy*.

    *To any whingers who might cry “You’re the one making it perverted!”… I am female. Most of the readers and commenters are female. And as females, we know the visual language of sex and exploitation because we’ve been drowning in it since we were very, very small.

    • Hannah

      Also, females aren’t the ones who tend to be sexually attracted to children. If anyone can call out this bullshit, it’s us!

  • Cassandra

    No one is “assigned” biological sex, for fuck’s sake. You’re either male or female with the potential to produce sperm or ova. There is a very small percentage of people born with ambiguous genitalia or DNA and Intersex has fuck-all to do with gender identity anyway.

    Why can’t you see that you are supporting sexism and homophobia? I don’t give two fucks about some male’s feelings about “identifying” as a woman. I care about FEMALES, the most oppressed and abused class of human beings on the planet for the past 10,000 years. I am allowed to care about FEMALES as FEMALES and fuck anyone who tells me otherwise. You’re spouting the same old shit men have always spouted at women when we stick up for women, calling us TERFS and using horrible terms like “Cis.”

    And the sad part is that if your picture is any indication, you’re female. Very sad.

  • Avery Lowrey

    “…raped, beaten, ridiculed, threatened, silenced or otherwise snuffed out.” wow, in a nut shell you just described what most trans people and the trans community experience too! everyday.
    actually, being a trans-woman almost guarantees living with many or all of the horrific actions you mentioned.
    sister, we should be in this together. we all want to smash the patriarchy. how can you dismiss your trans sisters/allies who are also fighting for this? different angle, same agenda. can we join together?

    • Richard Rich

      @averylowrey:disqus Most of these men who say that they are trans are attacked by other men because of their choice in attire and gendered stereotypes. Yet look at what these trans dudes have subjected women and girls to with their male pattern physical and psychic violence because their victims refused to accept their deep-rooted psychosexual delusions as reality.

      Being female is a fact half of the human species can’t escape from. Being trans is cosplay. I’ve been around enough of these guys to know that they are cold, arrogant, narcissistic shit-talkers who think that they are better than the rest of us. And talk a good game these people do.

      Avery isn’t even a woman’s name, BTW. So you’re a troll.

    • Hannah

      Most? Your attempts at manipulation won’t work here. We know most trans people who are sexually assaulted are in sex work (something that disproportionately affects females anyway) and are people of colour. “Guarantees” my ass. We can join together when you realize that females are not transgender. We are not the same. We have our own issues and history of oppression. When you take our definition, you take away our ability to talk about OUR specific problems. So no, especially when you tell outright lies, we can’t join together.

      • Avery Lowrey

        manipulation? lies? you mean, like the one you just told? that sexually assaulted trans people are mostly sex workers? please state you references.
        out of approximately 157 million women in the U.S., 1618 thousand were murdered this year. out of around 700 thousand transwomen, 36 were murdered this year. and while, of course, it is horrific that anyone should be murdered based on sex, gender, ideology, religion, etc, this shows that if you are transgender you are around 370 percent more likely to be killed than if you are, and present as, a biological woman. and if you think that is because “most” trans people are sex workers, well, therein lies your, very uninformed, lie. or, let’s just call it manipulation of the truth.
        this whole thread is opinions… and while ya’ll seem to love the voice of @Richard Rich you cant seem to accept the idea that a trans person can share your same ideology, with regard to feminism. in fact you outright reject it just because you don’t believe in gender self determination. so if you want to call me a liar, call me one, clearly the feminist current comments section is the place for that.
        also, i would prefer to formally redact my original comment to not include the word “sister”, but can’t do that now. i would never want to be yours, nor would you want to be mine. that is the only fact on this thread.
        good luck.

      • Avery Lowrey

        “We know most trans people who are sexually assaulted are in sex work”. please show your references.

        don’t give me your “most” BS when you just questioned mine.
        out of approximately 157,000,000 women in the U.S. 1618 were murdered this year.
        out of approximately 700,000 trans women in the U.S. 36 were murdered this year.
        given these statistics, trans women are 370 percent more likely to be murdered than biological, women.

        • Cassandra

          What puzzles us, or at me at least, is what the fuck male violence against men dressed in what is considered “women’s” clothing has to do with female oppression and the feminist movement. The only thing male to trans people in those cases and females have in common is that ASSHOLE MALES are perpetrating the violence against us. That’s it. Why aren’t we allowed to have our own political movement that focuses on our particular FEMALE issues?

          Feminism is a political movement the goal of which is the liberation of the female sex class from patriarchal oppression.

  • lapis

    Super educated even, LOL!
    I love how Meghan was accused of hating men earlier after pointing out that there is no female on the Nat Geo cover. Amazing arguments.

  • Just Passing Through

    Yep!

  • lapis
    • ptittle

      What I find interesting is the kid’s expression. I have trouble imagining that…that smugness, that blankness, on a girl, but maybe I’m out of touch with today’s kids.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Avery, why can’t you address people’s real arguments? Is your claim that people are simply ‘scared’ a means to avoid engaging with intellectual integrity, per chance?

  • Meghan Murphy

    What??? “Cis women identify as feminine??”

    No. First of all, no one is “cis.” Second, women do not identify as feminine. Femininity is imposed on women.

    Did you not read the article?

  • martindufresne

    I find it significant that one of the so-called “transgender females” on this cover is a male who RAPED someone last summer, by his own admission: https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2016/07/25/transwoman-activist-cherno-biko-confesses-to-raping-a-transman/, something NatGeo editors must have known.

    • Hannah

      Well, what can you say, it’s hard to find male to trans people that don’t harbour deep hatred for women.

  • martindufresne

    I wonder if it’s a coincidence that the “in your face” pose of the models mirrors that infamous pro-prostitution New York Times magazine article by Emily Bazelon of a few months ago. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/703f86546b2ac58aa4c81be436fa6c1696fb270dd5f0f859ccb0b37ac48034fb.png

  • Meghan Murphy

    Can you explain what is “transfobic” [sic] about stating biological facts?

  • Meghan Murphy

    A female child. Now you try.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Of course there are only two biological sexes. Being trans does not change one’s biological sex.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You cannot ‘identify’ as female. Female is simply a biological fact.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Ok. So how is it ‘transphobic’ to speak out against sexist gender stereotypes? Thinking critically about how gender functions in a patriarchy does not equate to hatred or prejudice. Nor does acknowledging biological sex is a real thing. Do you see, now, how ‘transphobia’ is used incoherently? Do you see that it is not used honestly, but as a means to silence questions and conversations around gender and gender identity? Particularly feminist questions and conversations?

    • Hannah

      For f*cks sake, even the UN recognizes gender stereotypes as completely against women’s rights and these people are reinforcing them -_-

      • Topazthecat

        Yes that’s right.

    • tj

      Thinking critically about how gender functions in a patriarchy does not equate to hatred or prejudice.

      The problem is that radical feminists who exclude trans people are incapable of “thinking critically” about gender without holding trans people to a higher standard than cis people; without resorting to hateful slurs like “MtT”, “autogynephile”; without supporting conversion for children, etc. etc. That’s hatred and prejudice, regardless of how many radfem buzzwords and slogans you try to hide it behind.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Can you point to any slurs I’ve used here?

        • tj

          You haven’t used any here; but it’s extremely common for radical feminists who exclude trans people to use slurs. You have demonstrated the typical double standard that is applied to trans people though. A cis girl wearing pink is just a cis girl wearing pink; a trans girl does the same and it gets denounced as “failing women”.

          Also loving the use of “gender dysphoria” in scare quotes. Gender dysphoria is a real thing even if you do find it ideologically inconvenient.

          • Meghan Murphy

            The women I know and work with don’t use any slurs to describe trans people. Maybe you should spend more time with radical feminists in real life? And no, I am actually vehemently opposed to socializing young girls with pink, princess culture, etc. Feminists push back against gendered toys and socialization constantly and always have.

          • Topazthecat

            ”Gender dysphoria” isn’t a natural thing! Just like snow made from a snow machine on ski resorts is real but not natural.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “Cis” is not a real thing. Women do not identify with their own oppression. We are oppressed because we are born female, not because we ‘identify’ as feminine.

  • Meghan Murphy

    AHHHH but you got it perfectly. Just copy and paste and you’re third wavin like a pro!

    • Morag999

      Oh gosh, thanks. My goal is to pass, just in case catching the third wave becomes the law.

      Yikes!

  • Meghan Murphy

    I must say I’m pleased to see the overt way MRA ideology and gender identity ideology connect in your comment…

  • Meghan Murphy

    You are right. Sex is not gender. Therefore, Avery has not been ‘misgendered’ simply because I have acknowledged Avery’s sex.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You know, you don’t have to bow down to this crap, holiv. Stand up, speak out.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Criticizing femininity isn’t internalized misogyny. Femininity is misogyny. It is imposed on females in order to reinforce our subordinate status under patriarchy.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I absolutely do not believe you’ve followed FC for some time considering your use of terms like “sex worker,” “SWERF,” or “TERF.”

    Had you followed any of my work, you wouldn’t use those terms, nor would you claim I simply “decided” on an analysis out of nowhere, without very seriously considering my analysis and reading what others have to say.

    Nice try though.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I’m sorry, are you actually claiming that feminist analysis and critical thinking is “violent?” And then claiming that is “feminist theory 101?” Did you learn feminism on tumblr?

  • Meghan Murphy

    I am not ‘implying’ anything. I am stating that a male is a male, no matter who he feels or dresses. That is not an insult or an attack — it is a neutral fact.

    • Morag999

      “I am not ‘implying’ anything.”

      Yeah, holy Jesus, a lot of people need a dictionary! Or, maybe not, if words can mean whatever one feels they should mean.

      Is “imply” the new “literally”? As in, will imply come around to meaning “explicitly state” the same way literally has come around to meaning “figuratively/emphatically”?

      Apparently it’s a prudish idea, decidedly (literally?) oppressive and — worse! — unsexy, this arrangement where everybody agrees on the meaning of words to facilitate communication and argument, but I’m kinda attached to it. Ha!

      • Leo

        Lol. I think in this context ‘implying’ possibly means ‘I know perfectly well what you’re saying but I’m going to pretend not to in order to be difficult and you better back down pronto while you have the chance’. It’s kind of concern-trolly.

  • Hannah

    Transition doesn’t take away their male privilege. They still feel entitled to female spaces and the very definition of female. You don’t see female to trans people demanding access to men’s bathrooms.

  • Hannah

    So then what was the point of transitioning? Why couldn’t you just say you’re being yourself and be done with it?

  • Hannah

    Very good to know.

  • Hannah

    Same silencing tactics as always, different language. It used to be “witches” now it’s “bigots” lol

  • Hannah

    It’s not a neutral term at all. It implies there are different types of women/female that includes males, i mean, wtf…make the connection here please…

  • Hannah

    Yeah they usually don’t answer.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yes. The most rational conclusion to come to here is that I have not read and don’t understand my own words.

    Let’s try this:
    “Cis” means to identify with the “gender” one was assigned at birth. Gender (i.e. masculinity and femininity) is imposed on humans based on whether or not they are born male or female. Females are socialized into femininity and males into masculinity in order to maintain the hierarchical system we call patriarchy. It is not women’s choice to be born into the subordinate class therefore to say that females somehow ‘identify’ with that subordinate position equates to some strange form of victim blaming.

    Being trans either means a person suffers from gender dysphoria/body dysmorphia and believes their body is somehow ‘wrong,’ or that they simply feel they ‘identify’ more with the gender stereotypes applied to the opposite sex. So yes, apparently it does have to do with pink and dresses. This is why most discourse surrounding transwomen is connected to a supposedly ‘innate’ desire to wear pantyhose or play with dolls. It’s just about sexist stereotypes. If it weren’t, what would being transgender mean?

  • Hannah

    Acknowledging biological sex and realizing that females are systematically different from male to trans and wanting that distinction and our own spaces is *worse* than the oppression females face? Haven’t heard that before lol, remind me again how the trans movement isn’t anti-female? Maybe when trans people leave us alone, we won’t talk about them.

  • FierceMild

    Transwomen are male. That’s not phobia, that’s a fact.

  • Virginia Howard

    That struck me too; “strap in” has a Gamergate echo to me.

    • FierceMild

      Also, how do you go from “strap in” to “hope you’re happy I’m literally crying”?!

  • Hannah

    The fact that they are taking our definition and legal protections should be scary to anyone who actually cares about females.

  • Hannah

    Listen, if trans people want their own words to describe themselves, fine. But they have no right to words that we use and have always used to fight and describe our own oppression. Do you not see how this is a clear way to undermine women’s rights? Also we don’t exclude trans people, we would allow female to trans people in our spaces.

  • Hannah

    “Getting rid of stereotypical gender roles (including toxic masculinity) is good for men *and* women.”

    But how do you not see that trans people are reinforcing these stereotypes? You can’t change your sex. If you are a male that likes nail polish, you are a male that likes nail polish. It’s fine but its extremely offensive to say that makes you a woman. It’s not a feeling, it’s a biological class. Like I said, they can come up with their own words if they really need to feel like special, oppressed snowflakes.

  • Hannah

    I’ve been thinking for a while now that if reality is transphobic to you, you need help, not hormones. I don’t see where any woman has said trans people should die or be attacked etc. We want our own definition and spaces, somehow that’s violent to them.

  • martindufresne

    The only misgendering being done is by people who insist on being called something they’re not.

  • Liza

    If most people reject gender and only use sex as catigories then there is no such thing as misgendering. This is going to be an increasing trend. The more publicity it get the more abusurd it proves to be. MIsgender–Avery. He can wear pink sparkels and he is still a boy.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “I just really can’t wrap my head around where you’re coming from, or why someones genitals matter to you that much.”

    Please don’t reduce feminist analysis to “personally caring about genitals.” The point is that women are oppressed, as a class, because they are born female. I mean, if you really want to talk “genitals,” we can. Women’s oppression is directly connected to their reproductive capacity. That is to say men decided to control women in order to control their bloodline. I mean, that issue is clearly not solely about “genitals,” but of course “genitals” are at play here. Beyond that, surely you are aware that it is generally those who have penises (i.e. males) who rape women and girls, most-often with said penises.

    “If a trans girl identifies as a woman their whole life, or even much older in their life, and presents as a woman, they are literally receiving the same oppression that cis (which is a biological term, not a slur) women face, and might I say twofold, as there are women like you who sit on message boards and call their personhood and identity into question.”

    Well no. Not “literally” the same. Because men cannot get pregnant or give birth, their life experiences under patriarchy are naturally different. I do agree, though, that men who behave or look stereotypically “feminine” are harassed and abused for not performing masculinity properly.

    No one has questioned anyone’s personhood. That is a manipulative to frame what feminists are saying with regard to ‘gender identity.’ Also, critical thinking is not oppressive, though you could certainly argue (and many do!) that the suppression of women’s speech, the silencing of dissent, the smearing of feminists is a form of oppression — or at least is directly connected to women’s oppression.

    It would be great if we were all fighting the same fight, but it seems we are not, as one group is arguing that gender is individual and innate, and the other is saying that gender is socially imposed and not an individual choice or internal ‘feeling.’

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yes, I — the person who is acknowledging biological sex is real — am the one whose “ideology” is not rooted in reality. You do realize that all feminists are doing is naming material reality, while people like you keep putting forth arguments that are solely based on dogma, right?

  • Meghan Murphy

    You should look up the word “violence,” and then maybe focus your ire on the people who are actually perpetrating it.

  • Meghan Murphy

    They don’t? Even when they have lived most of their lives as men? How does that work?

  • Melanie

    The ‘reducing people to their body parts’ thing is ironic given that so many transgender people are fixated on the body parts of the opposite sex to the point of taking hormones, getting surgery or engaging in dangerous practices such as breast binding.

  • Meghan Murphy

    That is not ‘questioning people’s personhood.’ People who identify as trans are people just like everyone else and deserve safety and rights just like everyone else. What we are ‘questioning’ is the notion of innate, internal ‘gender identity.’ I don’t believe you are oppressing me at all. But I do believe that the mass suppression of feminist speech is part of patriarchal oppression.

    Can you explain what it is you don’t ‘buy into’? Like, do you believe gender is internal and innate?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Ideas you don’t understand or like are not violence, no. Violence is violence, and the people responsible for violence against trans people are men. Feminists who believe people should be able to dress and express themselves however they like but that wearing princess dresses is not what defines girls/women are not doing ‘violence.’ That is ridiculous.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Can you explain why irrational belief in something not based in material reality, that you can’t even explain or define is not dogma?

    What does it mean to be “100% the gender they identify with?” How does one quantify that?

  • genny

    Of course you see “multiple women” on the cover (excuse me, but there are NONE there). Liberals like you are more concerned with accepting absolutely everyone out of fear of hurting people’s feelings instead of actually doing some critical thinking and forming a cohesive argument.

  • genny

    “Cis” is a silly liberal buzzword. You people with your dopey “identifiers”. Men have penises, women have periods, vaginas, and uteruses. What about that don’t you GET?

  • Meghan Murphy

    It’s literally not like saying that. “Gay” just means homosexual. That is to say people who are sexually attracted to people of their own sex. Homosexual people obviously exist. It is also not an idea that other people need to accept in order for it to be a real thing. Who you are attracted to is actually something that exists regardless of what others believe or think.

    “Gender identity,” though, is only something that can exist so long as we buy into sexist gender roles, which feminists do not. If you don’t buy into gender stereotypes, gender identity doesn’t exist at all. Gender itself is just an idea, unlike biology, which is a material reality. I mean, again, people should wear whatever clothes they like and express themselves however they like, but identifying with gender stereotypes is not what makes one male or female.

    Again, what does it mean to be “100% the gender they identify with?” How does one quantify that?

    • Madera Rhayne

      Why is it “not an idea that people need to accept in order for it to be a real thing” and why is being trans any different? People used to think that biologically, there was only ONE sexuality. They used the SAME argument you are using. They chose not to see what was right in front of them because it didn’t fit their logic, or they didn’t agree with it.

      And I don’t buy into sexist gender roles, as a feminist, but gender identity does exist for myself and for many other people. And what it means to be 100% the gender they identify with is that they are 100% the gender they identify with… as in, nobody has the power to invalidate or revoke that identity, literally no other explanation needed.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Nothing you’ve said here makes any sense.

        What is ‘gender identity’? Is it an internal feeling? Does that mean we are born feminine or masculine? Or is it just outward expression? Like clothes and makeup? Because femininity and masculinity are simply sexist stereotypes, perhaps you’ll see that it becomes difficult to explain what ‘gender identity’ is without buying into said stereotypes.

        Also, you haven’t answered my question. The answer to “what does it mean to be 100% the gender they identify with” cannot be simply that “it is that they are 100% the gender they identify with.” Like, what does it mean, in a material sense, for a male to be “100% a woman,” for example? Can you describe what that means without simply saying it’s that they identify as a woman?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Why is it violence to understand that transwomen are male? Males should be able to dress however they want, but wearing women’s clothes does not literally make a person female. Also, no, women do not perpetrate violence against trans people. Men do that.

  • Meghan Murphy

    No dear. But funny you should mention “glass houses” considering that your entire ideology is based on everyone around you buying into and repeating dogma, like good minions. Once people start asking critical questions and poking holes, everything falls a part. Better keep ’em quiet!

  • Meghan Murphy

    If they are not male, what does “trans” mean? What is a woman? Can you define that word?

  • Meghan Murphy
  • Meghan Murphy

    What do you mean when you say “queerness?” Do you just mean gay and lesbian? If so, I agree that forcing people to suppress that part of themselves would be oppressive, but I fail to see what that has to do with this conversation/trans. No one here is saying that people should not express themselves in a way that makes them feel comfortable and happy and that they should be protected. We are just saying that gender isn’t internal and that how one dresses or ‘feels’ does not change one’s biological sex.

    Again, can you explain what it is you don’t ‘buy into’? Like, do you believe gender is internal and innate?

  • Meghan Murphy

    But people are generally not assigned a sex at birth. Their sex is a biological fact that is recorded as such.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Well, you can’t actually change your sex… You can only change outward appearances. We say “trans” because we acknowledge that the person has a biological sex that is different than the sex they desire to be and doesn’t match their gender presentation. Wishing to look like or actually looking like a woman still doesn’t alter your biological sex…

    How do you know what a woman is if there is no definition? Is it anything? Is it a frog? A table? A tree?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Where did you answer the question? I must have missed it. Biological sex is not solely about genitals, though genitals do factor in, yes.

    I don’t believe there is such thing as “gender identity”, because I don’t believe gender is either innate or a superficial, personal choice, so I’m not able to answer your question.

  • Tired

    But Avery is not being seen and treated as a girl, Avery is being seen and treated as a transgender kid. How many young girls her age do you know who get to dress up in sparkly shit and get their photo on the cover of Nat GEO.
    I don’t doubt Avery will have a set of specific challenges (many of them potentially awful with all this publicity) but Avery is not being socialised as a girl here at all and her socialisation is probably closer to male entitlement than female socialisation (the idea that putting on pink sparkly things makes you a girl for a start.) There’ll be no menstruation puberty shock, no pregnancy fears etc. Avery will definitely have a different view than a boy raised as a boy but I’m not sure that equates with being closer to a female socialisation

    • Anthocerotopsida

      Yeah, I see your point about kids like Avery being raised as “trans”rather than “girls”. But it’s possible to raise a trans kid more nearly like their chosen gender, hypothetically? Hell if I know anything about parenting a trans kid. I still think there are degrees from “trans identifying” to an identity more like the person’s chosen gender.
      Furthermore, a trans girl might be treated as a “trans kid” by they’re parents and teachers and other kids who know that they’re trans, but people in general will see a kid like Avery as any other girl until at least puberty. The fact that she’s male won’t stop pedophiles from following her around department stores, or stop boys on the playground from refusing to pass the ball to her, or stop her from being generally demeaned and devalued the way girls are, or stop her from identifying with harmful representations of girls and women in the culture. That must count for something.

      Gotta disagree with you on the sparkly pink thing, though. I saw a crowd of kids, maybe around 9yo, outside a school the other day I was struck by how much pink there was. A full 1/4 of all the color in that mass of kids was particularly ugly shades of pink. Try going into a store and buying a gift for a 9yo girl that isn’t pink. You can’t. Oh my god, and it’s all princesses all the time. And Disney. Can’t a kid own a single thing that doesn’t have a character on it?

      • Tired

        I get your point on the predominance of pink (and Disney everywhere) it’s awful. But putting pink on a girl doesn’t confer special status, it just lets her blend in with the crowd. Its almost like a protective camouflage which is a female socialisation thing in itself. Don’t stand out, Don’t be uppity, don’t make yourself a target etc. It’s like grooming for protection against the rape culture, DV etc and then you get punished if something happens and you weren’t complying. (Sorry gone a bit tangential there).

        • Anthocerotopsida

          I hope you don’t think I was arguing that pink confers special status on girls. I was just rambling bitterly about ugly colors and forced prissy-fication of little girls.
          And I have no confidence in the kindness of anyone. I think kids who mistake Avery for a female girl will treat her like other girls with all the bull shit that entails. And kids who know she’s trans will fall into two categories: those who accept her and those who are cruel to her. So she’s kinda screwed either way, especially with the spotlight turned on her like it has been.
          Sorry, I realize this sounds patronizing, but nine year old boys and girls are identical above the waste because they have no secondary sex characteristics yet. The only way to tell them apart is to know what kind of underpants they wear, so we tend to infer their sex based on their clothing and hair styles. That’s why I think people who aren’t specifically told that Avery is trans will assume that she’s female until puberty or so. It’s likely that we see Avery as “a boy in girly drag” only because we know she’s male.
          Mostly I was trying to talk about “kids like Avery” rather than Avery specifically.
          Man, all I’m saying is that trans girls have perspectives that are unique to them but they also know a little about what other girls go through. I suspect that some trans people have experiences that are more uniquely trans and others have more experiences that are shared with females. I’m not prepared to speculate where any individual person falls on that scale. Some trans women turn out to be allies and others don’t, same as any other woman.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t “feel like a woman” at all. I just know I am one because I was born female. I have no idea what it means to “feel like a woman” on the inside.

  • Tired feminist

    How about “male”, an even easier one?

  • Tired feminist

    “Who are you”? An actual woman, maybe?

  • Meghan Murphy

    That is not changing your biological sex, it’s just plastic surgery… In any case, most trans people don’t actually get sex reassignment surgery.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Actually, statistics show that suicide risk increases after transition. In general, risks for self-harm are greater during adolescence.This is not something specific to trans-identified kids. Girls, specifically, are more likely to self-harm than boys, though. Statistics around trans and suicide risk never factor in other mental health issues (and many trans identified kids are actually struggling with other unaddressed mental health issues). Often-cited surveys and studies that say trans kids have high suicide risk never take into account the fact that these kids feel troubled and like they don’t fit in because they do not feel they “fit” into our rigid and sexist gender hierarchy, rather than because they are “trans.” In any case, there is no evidence to support your claims here.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I am not personally “fixated” on genitals anymore than any other human. Again, I’m just stating scientific facts, here. Is science “fixated on gentials” because it differentiates between male and female mammals? Anyway, you appear not to be able or willing to listen to what I am actually saying, but rather repeating these mantras over and over again, kind of like a religious zealot. For the last time, I want people to feel free to live and express themselves however they like. Boys should be able to wear pink and play with dolls, and girls should be able to wear ties and play with trucks. My argument is against attaching sexist stereotypes to boys and girls and saying that femininity and masculinity is something innate and unchangeable, rather than socially imposed. And if someone told me I wasn’t female, I would laugh at them.

  • Meghan Murphy

    What does it mean to ‘feel like a woman’? (Apart from being subjected to sexist oppression.)

  • Meghan Murphy

    My point is that words have meanings, not that tables have identities. Please stop being manipulative. You cannot define a thing by simply restating the name of a thing. That is not a definition. i.e. “A table is a table,” “A frog is a frog,” “A woman is a woman.” This is not legitimate in any sense.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t believe anyone has said my words hurt them. I believe you claimed that opinions you don’t like or understand is “violence,” but everyone knows that is not literally true…

    You are the one who refuses to ‘listen’ (i.e. respond to the actual things we are saying), instead manipulating discourse and repeating the same things that have already been pointed out as nonsensical.

    Gender identity ideology (i.e. your ideology) is harmful. It reinforces sexist stereotypes which in turn naturalizes gender hierarchy under patriarchy. It is also chipping away at women’s hard fought for rights. Actually. In real and tangible ways, not in the made up ways where you pretend that feminist speech = violence.

    People can have whatever feelings they like, but once we start demanding everyone around you validate your personal feelings and ‘identities,’ it becomes our business, especially when we are legislating around those feelings.

    It would be great if we could have these conversations without being called names and slurred, but you and your ilk seem unwilling to do that. Most likely this is because you know how weak your arguments are and understand that it is too easy to poke holes in gender identity discourse, therefore all dissenters must be silenced.

  • Tired feminist

    Race does have basis in material reality though. It’s a physical phenomenon, not a feeling in your head.

  • Tired feminist

    Normally developed embryos are either male or female. Intersex individuals are exceptions.

  • Tired feminist

    Lol. You’re a guy, for sure.

  • Tired feminist

    I identify as The Supreme Owner Of Truth. Don’t you dare question my identity, you fucking bigot.

  • Tired feminist

    Actually there is an universal definition of woman: adult human female.

    You “can’t define woman” because you know that, other than that, all you can come up with are circular definitions and sexist stereotypes.

  • Just Passing Through

    The backlash is fierce indeed. The rise of alt-rightists, transgenderists, mra’s, online and offline misogynists, “pick up artists”, anti freedom of reproductive rights-ists, pro prostitution-ists, pro porn industry-ists, Trump-ists, and general all around female hatred is something to behold and is on a scale we haven’t ever seen before. There is no greater time than right now for women (female) women to stand up against this onslaught and come together as a political force. We need our own political party and we need it soon. I know this has been tried in the past but it really needs to happen now. Men will stop at nothing to keep us locked in their patriarchal prison as the sex class that exists for them. (Womens Party) NOW. .

  • Tired feminist

    1) Women are not chairs or CDs. Take your gross misogyny out of here.

    2) No one cares what you “interpret” as woman. It’s utterly disrespectful to mansplain the definition of woman to women.

    3) No matter how you define woman or female, the basic biological facts of sexed reproduction will remain. It doesn’t matter how you call men and women, or males or females, they’ll still exist as two distinct categories of individuals.

    4) there is already a perfectly coherent definition of woman. Why the fuck should we drop it?

  • Tired feminist

    There’s no “cisgendered woman”. No woman “chooses to identify” with her own oppression.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “Why is it considered worse or more worthy of comment if a child is being ‘socialised’ in a particular way just because they happen to be trans?”

    It’s not. Have you only just discovered the feminist movement this year via tumblr?

  • Cassandra

    🙂

  • Cassandra

    “Transphobia” also = reproductive biology. There’s really nowhere to go after that.

  • Meghan Murphy

    lol. Yes, why on EARTH would feminists care about the reinforcement of sexist gender stereotypes! This is literally the first time any feminist has pushed back against the notion of innate gender! Also, while it’s clear you don’t give a shit, gender identity legislation is being pushed forward at a rapid rate across North America, which has very real impacts on women’s rights and safe spaces. Seeing as you clearly are not familiar with my work at all, the bulk of it has focused on violence against women, sexualization, and objectification. Positively pathological!

  • Cassandra

    Transgender ideology is the living definition of SUPPORT the patriarchy.

  • Cassandra

    I’m hoping you don’t seriously believe that you can change your sex. You’re kidding, right?

  • Cassandra

    Unless you are female you will never experience your life as a woman.

  • Cassandra

    What did they transition from?
    What is a woman?
    You can’t define it with sexist stereotypes or say it’s a feeling. How you can say it’s a feeling if you can’t define what it is?

  • Cassandra

    Transwomen are transwomen, not women. If they were women, they wouldn’t need “Trans” in front of it, would they?

  • Meghan Murphy

    So you believe there is such a thing as a ‘male brain’ or a ‘female brain’?

  • Meghan Murphy

    I’m confused. Are you saying a person who is born female is actually male simply because they identify as a transman?

    • Resse

      I think one can criticize the trans movement without discriminating against trans people. How is saying somebody who is biologically male can not present the same way a feminine female would not the exact same thing as assigning a oppressive gender hierarchy.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yes, there is a clear binary between male and female. There are also a small minority of intersex people. But the vast majority of people in this world are clearly either male or female and it’s really not that complicated to differentiate between the two. You are spouting nonsense.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t ‘identify’ as a woman, I am a woman. That is to say, an adult human female. Now answer my question. What does it mean to ‘feel like a woman?’

  • pyrite00

    This Madera guy is just going to keep barking MRA/trans dogma at us no matter what. He has a script and us mere real women don’t matter in his worldview. I reject this gender bullshit and the men who push it on us.

  • pyrite00

    Well, that is the real reason for calling us “cis women” because there HAS be a class of slave women to birth and raise the kids, do the cleaning and care work, be exploited by pimps, etc. And trans/MRAs have figured out that claiming that we “identify” as “cis” means we have agreed to the terms of our slavery. See how trans neatly fits in with the patriarchy way?

    • Wren

      holy shit. In reality they think they are a superior breed of “women”? Cause they’re women with dicks? It’s just all soooo far removed from all of the trans people I’ve known, but of course, they were gay men who wanted to be feminine but didn’t pretend to actually be women.

  • Tired feminist

    Men dressing up as women aren’t a new thing. The difference is that now they say they ARE women…

  • Zuzanna Smith

    How is it that there are 7 billion humans on the planet if there isn’t a clear binary?

  • Zuzanna Smith

    So they are 100% cross sex stereotype adherent, oh ok, got it.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    Yeah it’s your ladyface sex fetish.

  • radwonka

    Define “spectrum”.

    “You have literally no way of knowing persons biological sex is (unless… you fixate on their genitals, which, honey, you are)”

    But Honey, are you saying that biological sex has nothing to do with sexual organs now? Sexual differentiation? Chromosomes? Primary sex characteristics? Then what’s biological sex then? Please explain Honey.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    These kids feel unsafe in their bodies because someone told them their bodies were wrong for the personality they were expressing, no kid feels wrong in their body unless they have been brainwashed or abused.

  • Tired feminist

    Morag you’re the best. Please consider developing a queer/pomo generator bot.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    Of course, otherwise he would’ve said ciswomen.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    Girl and woman are not identities, reducing womanhood to a feeling or an identity is violent misogynistic holocausting you phobe.

  • radwonka

    “Self-identification doesn’t necessarily mean anything.”

    It’s kinda sad that people use self identification to “become” things they are not. Realism is not incompatible with self identification and yet these people spend their time saying that “women arent real, but a self identified woman is a woman, they are real”. Go figure *sigh*

  • Zuzanna Smith

    You do not experience your life as a woman because you are male, end of.

  • Tired feminist

    Now this could be an example of comment generated on @Morag999 ‘s bot…

  • Northern

    Biologist here. What are you even talking about when you say “expression may change (transitioning isn’t unknown in nature for some species.”? Do male polar bears decide they want to wear tights and skirts because they “identify” as female polar bears?

    • Topazthecat

      Obviously nature didn’t make any clothing,and we were all born nude and in the beginning of time adults were nude not dressed in any gender stereotyped clothes that nature didn’t create,people did. And before World war 1 girls were dressed in blue and boys were dressed in pink and before this,they were both dressed in white dresses and it just goes to show how artificially socially and culturally constructed all of this really is!

  • Meghan Murphy

    Women have and are still discriminated against in the workplace on account of their ability to get pregnant. You know, because they are female.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Well jeez, I’ve only written a bunch of articles outlining my arguments clearly.

  • Meghan Murphy

    The reason there is focus, now, on discourse around gender identity is because gender identity ideology is moving us backwards, very quickly, while simultaneously being touted as ‘progressive’ and even ‘feminist.’ Progressives are accepting the notion of gender as internal without question, which is dangerous. It’s not that it is considered ‘worse’ when a supposedly trans child is socialized in a particular way — gendered socialization is bad for all children — what we’re talking about is the discourse surrounding this child, i.e. the notion that wearing pink and liking ‘princess dresses’ makes a boy a girl.

    • tj

      Who says that liking ‘princess dresses’ makes a child a girl? Is that in the NG issue somewhere?

      And gender identity does seem to be pretty much hard-wired. If it wasn’t then attempts at conversion “therapy” for trans people wouldn’t be such a miserable failure. You may find this politically inconvenient, but that’s too bad.

      • Meghan Murphy

        So you didn’t read the article huh….

        Anyway, good to know this regressive garbage is working. I guess feminists are right to be concerned.

      • Melanie

        And there we have it. What a surprise that so many men and conservatives are supportive of this ideology.

      • Cassandra

        “And gender identity does seem to be pretty much hard-wired.”
        SAYS WHO?

        “If it wasn’t then attempts at conversion “therapy” for trans people wouldn’t be such a miserable failure. You may find this politically inconvenient, but that’s too bad.”

        TRANS IS THE NEW HOMOSEXUAL CONVERSION THERAPY, YOU FUCKING DOLT.

      • ptittle

        Attempts to convert classical music fans to rap are miserable failures too. Does that mean that liking classical music is pretty much hard-wired.

  • Meghan Murphy

    How is it that naming a male as such is ‘violent’, but forcing the label ‘cis’, which claims women somehow ‘identify’ with femininity, is not a slur?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Dude. If you keep claiming reasoned feminist arguments are ‘feelings,’ you’re gonna get banned.

    • tj

      I didn’t see an argument. Just hurt feelings.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Byeeeee

  • Topazthecat

    Yes but magazines want to sell copies so they did what fashion magazines do on their covers and inside their magazines.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    Yeah I bet you’d be hard pressed to see a cavewoman being treated like a male warrior because she reeely reely believed she was male.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    Peachyoghurt is so fantastic! Highly recommend.

  • Topazthecat

    As feminist psychology professor and stand up comedian Christopher Kilmartin, who has written several books on how men are socially conditioned into ”masculinity” and men’s violence against women, told college students who he was educating against sexual assault,never say the ”opposite” sex,say the other sex.

    • Tired feminist

      Why exactly?

  • Tired feminist

    The day a transwoman dies from complications of an unsafe, illegal abortion, or is forced to sell her uterus as a surrogate, or is sold off/kidnapped as a sex slave, or loses a job offer due to pregnancy or potential pregnancy, or has to skip school during her period for being ‘dirty’… then maybe, just maybe, I’ll take that ‘same oppression’ talk.

  • Topazthecat

    So true and well said. NEW PSYCHOLOGY STUDY ON HARMS OF ”MASCULINITY” NORMS & SEXISM IS HARMFUL TO MEN’S MENTAL HEALTH PUBLISHED IN AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGIST

    http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2016/11/sexism-harmful.aspx

    AS BOYS WE ARE TOLD TO BE BRAVE MEN ON MASCULINITY AND MENTAL HEALTH THE GUARDIAN

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/24/as-boys-we-are-told-to-be-brave-men-on-masculinity-and-mental-health

  • Topazthecat

    They probably are an MRA.

  • Topazthecat

    So true again!

  • Topazthecat

    Wrong!

    I recently found this brand new great,really important long article debunking myths that gender identity is innate and fixed! It’s by two male psychiatrists,Lawrence S.Mayor and Paul R.McHugh. One of their many references is The American Psychological Associations pamphlet on Transgenderism and gender and it says while sex is biological,gender is socially constructed and they say they are really concerned that little children are being transgendered.

    http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/part-three-gender-identity-sexuality-and-gender

  • Tired feminist

    Then explain what it is. Without circular definitions. Without sexist stereotypes.

    We’ll wait.

  • Topazthecat

    Yes and neuroscientists know that the human brain is plastic and easily molded and shaped by different life experiences,different social conditioning and different environments throughout life and that the structure and function of even adults brains can be changed.And yet amazingly despite all of this,women and men’s brains are more alike than different.

  • Melanie

    Lol, you can like jazz music but that doesn’t make you a jazz CD. Women and girls are not concepts or ideas. We’re female human beings. That’s all there is to it.

  • Tired feminist

    Your style of ‘disagreement’ is too typically masculine to ignore. Sorry, bro, but you don’t pass.

  • Marla

    There is no “revolution” here. That is a buzz term implied to sell a magazine that is on the brink of terminating its circulation.

  • Tired feminist

    But you’re the one saying people are whatever they identify as…

  • Tired feminist

    Actually all of us experience womanhood by being adult, human and female. If you’re not all these three things, you can’t experience womanhood.

  • Topazthecat

    Yes thank you,everything you so accurately described is the epitome of the problems with this.And what about girls,born girls who don’t like these ”feminine” things? Many heterosexual women including many married women have said they were ”tomboys'( I hate this term because it both reflects and reinforces sexist gender stereotypes) as children.

  • Marla

    “Just because they were born female does not mean that they are denying their femaleness or anything; they are male.”

    Huh? First off, they weren’t born “female.” Human biology and and the DNA it stems from does not change overnight simply because one feels “biologically cheated” or they like to wear dresses and talk the latest trends from Christian Dior. Your argument is confusing, poorly written, and riddled with identity political cliches instead of solid facts.

    • Resse

      I’ve always saw trans and intersex people as proof of the fluidity of gender, meaning bio + culture, like the same human biology and DNA that makes some female or male and proportions someone to have blue eyes can also proportion some body towards gender identity “trans” and sexual orientation. This does not mean gender identity is not a social construct. I’m talking about how in societies we have this thing called “culture” roles and categories and languages denoting thus. Not that they don’t change, not that they are intractable and biologically based but that they exist.

      Gender is a social construct and there is fluidity between the constructs, no body corresponds perfectly because people are people and not categories, there are only human beings when you deconstruct it to the bottom.

      • Marla

        This fluidity that you talk about sounds like homozygous genetics to me rather than cultural circumstances. While gender may be a social construct, the(ir) physiologic nature from birth remains the same regardless of the phenocopy (so to say) that the person psychologically believes they are female or male.

        • Resse

          That could be it, I think the argument is a matter of semantics and those of use engaged in the conversation in the first place really want the same things.

  • Topazthecat

    Also so true.

  • Topazthecat

    I’m sure that if there were any white people who claim to be born with a ”black person’s mind” in a white body and therefore they can’t help but like racist stereotypes like loving to eat watermelon,fried chicken and to shine white people’s shoes,it wouldn’t go over too well.

  • Cassandra

    “Feminine privilege?”
    You are a d00d.

    Feminity is a prison sentence.

  • Topazthecat

    You are *so right*!

    There is *no* such natural thing as ”feeling like a woman or man or a girl or boy”! I don’t feel like a woman inside even though I certainly look like a very pretty woman. Maybe I once felt that way before I became educated and enlightened about the extreme social constructions of gender.

    Maybe if someone hypnotized me and brought me back to when I was a little girl and asked me when I was constantly told even by many strangers in public places, I was a strikingly beautiful baby and child,if I ”felt like a girl” inside,I might have said I don’t know what is that supposed to mean? Which is a great question with a great point. Or I might have said no,or I might have said yes because I got the same extreme gender training into ”femininity” all girls and women do.

  • Cassandra

    “As a PhD level biologist…”
    ROTFLMAO

    We care because transgender ideology is virulently hateful to gay and female people.

  • Wren

    So wait, sex is a stereotype?? My vagina is a stereotype??

    • Resse

      I would bet the trans man has a vagina so you can not complain about that.

      • Wren

        I didn’t complain. I asked a question which you didn’t answer.

  • Wren

    Yeah, AND that there are several transgendered “sex workers” in the pic. Historically, many trans and intersex people were forced into prostitution due to discrimination, so some of the connection is legitimate. However, none I knew were happy about it. None at all.

  • lk

    I feel like this happens on any article that is published on fc about the damage that sex work and transgenderism does to women.

    Feminist current: posts rational argument critiquing sex work and transgenderism.

    Response by those who don’t agree: Name calling us swerfs, terfs, white feminists (this one always makes me laugh considering the number of people of color who comment/create articles on this site and the amount of articles that focuses on the struggles of women of all different ethnic backgrounds), accuse us of violence, bigotry and hatred. If an argument is actually made, it is usually circular, contradictory or just flat out makes no sense.

    I wonder if these people are as enraged and vocal about violence against women and girls, economic and social struggles of women as they are about calling a human male a he.

    • Meghan Murphy

      They also always seem to think they are either saying something original or that their name calling will fly/shame women into silence and are shocked when it doesn’t, unable to come up with any further (actual) arguments. It works everywhere else, I guess?

  • Cassandra

    It is totally female business to know if someone has a penis. You are supporting rape culture. Shame shame shame on you.

  • Fouraces

    Typical MRA’s shallow analysis of the wage gap. It’s illegal to pay differently but it happens. Most people don’t know what their peers are being paid. As for “gendered choices”, why do you suppose women “choose” not to enter well-paying male-dominated specializations? Why is domestic labor foisted on women? You’re delusional if you think many women want to do this unpaid, thankless labor.

    Unless you think there are such things as lady brains that cause women to favor arts over sciences (for example) these so-called choices are due to external and artificial influences. You know, the patriarchy.

    You don’t have real conversations with real people often huh. Of course lesbians are not literally invisible, they are underrepresented in media compared to their male counterparts because there is a general lack of interest in lesbians.

  • Wren

    Oh, dear lord, and that post is several years old.

  • Cassandra

    Yes, just last night I saw a horse in high heels and a corset with a big ol horse dick just a swingin in the wind. He was looking for the mare bathroom because he just wanted to pee!!!!!!

  • Wren

    It’s illegal to rape women too, but you people with dicks between your legs keep doing it anyway. Legality is irrelevant.

  • Wren

    Oh, do tell us what feminine privilege is! We are all anxious to hear the good news!!!

  • Wren

    “All it takes now is to simply “identify” as a “non-male” and BAM. Get
    out of white-male privilege free card, and onto correcting those uppity
    minority groups!”

    YES!!! every fucking white man I’ve ever dated was looking for his “victim” card.

    And YAYYYY fellow sex-industry escapees unite!! I know it’s stupid, but it makes me so happy to find y’all here.

  • FierceMild

    If transwomen are no different from other women then please answer one or both of the following:

    1) why are they called trans?

    2) why can’t they get pregnant?

    • ptittle

      Given women who can’t get pregnant, perhaps we should use chromosomes as the definitive element. There are XX (female), XY (male), and other (intersexed). End of (sex) story. (And until we can reconfigure one’s chromosomes, there can be no transexuals.)

      (And as for transgenders, anyone who violates the gender norms of our society is transgender, a little to a lot.)

  • JingFei

    I agree with this. It’s just gay and lesbians are the ones being “transed” in droves 🙁 .

  • FierceMild

    This is dead on. I grew up within an extremely religious community and I think they Take well to transfolk because it gives them a way around homosexuality. They’d rather have a son than a lesbian daughter.

    Also, it allows for the unfettered naturalization of gender roles. This is one of the reasons countries like Iran and Pakistan who kill folks for homosexuality embrace trans:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/11903290/Eight-of-Irans-womens-football-team-are-men.html

    • Cassandra

      Not to mention that Iran and Pakistan are extremely misogynist countries. Funny how this all works, huh?

  • FierceMild

    I dunno, I’ve been reading these board for a while now and you certainly have room to identify as *a* Supreme Owner of Truth.

  • FierceMild

    Define violence, please.

  • FierceMild

    Really? Cite some.

  • I really do see what you mean with your first part, but I just think that if someone wholeheartedly believes they are the opposite gender and goes so far as to transition physically, I’ll call them by that opposite gender. I don’t follow with all of these other “genders,” but that much I can give someone.
    Pre-op, I’d expect the hospital to treat the injured person according to their physical body parts. I knew a woman that was transitioning into a man during college and used the women’s restroom because he was still physically a female at the time. At my graduate school, there’s just straight up a man using the woman’s restroom because that’s how he identifies; he’s not in transition. I don’t agree with this, but my school is so extremely left that me saying something would probably get me in a lot of trouble.
    I think there’s a big difference between someone that just says they feel like the opposite gender and someone that says they feel like the opposite gender and then transitions.
    I’m not about protecting feelings, I’m about letting people identify as they feel is right for them mentally and physically. And kicking science out of the picture? I’d suggest you all read up about the science behind the very cause of why some minds develop as the opposite gender as a person’s physical sex in the first place.

  • FierceMild

    In what way, precisely, is that reality material? Please don’t answer with an accessory list or a set of gender stereotypes.

  • FierceMild

    I neither feel like, nor identify as, a woman. I just am one. That’s how it works. Woman=adult human female not adult human male fantasy.

  • FierceMild

    Prove your claims. Any of them. Pick one claim you’ve made and support it with evidence.

  • k.

  • Richard Rich

    @fedeli_d_amore:disqus No such thing as “feminine privilege”. The only purpose femininity serves is to condition females into subordination, exploitation, and marginalization in relation to males. It’s at the bottom of the sex hierarchy. And it’s good to know that you are the type of person who posts crap like this:

    “Good. Glad to hear it was soul crushing. Leftists like her have been crushing the souls of white men and christians for years now.”

    While calling yourself a “feminist” with garbage like this:

    “Haven’t we feminists been trying to shut down boys clubs for decades? Ooops, maybe that wasn’t the nicest idea for mens wellbeing. Glad we’re entitled to change our minds so often.”

    The Internet’s a small place, dude.

  • FierceMild

    Dude, you are trying to become a living stereotype. And your experience of your womanhood is completely different than any of us because…wait for it… YOU ARE A MAN AND WE ARE WOMEN!

  • Meghan Murphy

    You can just keep repeating the word ‘transphobic’ over and over again without actually addressing any of the arguments we are making or responding to any of our questions, but no one here is going to be convinced.

    Yes, white women have white privilege, but that doesn’t negate the fact that it is men who perpetrate violence in this world — against other men as well as against women. To deny this is delusional. Women fear men, not other women. Stop using “intersectional feminism” as an excuse to center men. Intersectional feminism is still about women, and the various ways women experience oppression in a captalist, white supremacist, patriarchal world. These efforts to pretend intersectional feminism means centering dudes in our movement make you sound like an MRA.

  • Wren

    Ack! I gotta get something off my chest, or at least I need to clarify where I’m coming from. Maybe this has already been hashed out elsewhere, but I need to make the distinction between gay men wanting to pass as women and straight men wanting to pass as women. And I’m using vague language cause I don’t even know what to call my gay friends anymore because they used to be just fine with transexual or drag queen or just whatever their chosen name was.

    In particular, I’m talking about the friends I had when I was being prostituted who were also in it. I had no problem referring to my friend Priscilla as “she” but she wouldn’t have had a shit fit about anyone saying she was man either. She was just trying to survive. Also, I lived in San Francisco, and if I wanted to go out at night I would always go to the Castro. It was the only place I felt safe. Not only did I know that the transexuals and drag queens would never bother me, but they were very protective and would fuck up anyone that even tried to mess with me or any other girl. I never, ever, felt any danger around them, in fact just the opposite. Of course this isn’t about them being gay because there are definitely many gay macho men that wouldn’t have given a shit about my well being.

    When I first read and heard about this “transgender” movement I was initially excited. I was grateful that maybe there would be better opportunities for trans and intersex people than prostitution and marginalization. I am heart broken that the challenges that homosexual trans people face are being conflated with the agenda of fucking perverts. And that is what they are. They are absolutely two completely different things. I don’t care how far off I’ve gone from the PC bandwagon anymore, I will not let a bunch of violent pervy men destroy women and ruin progress for homosexual trans people. Therefore, I will furthermore refer to straight men who wanna be women as fetishists, for that’s about as nice as I can get. I’m grateful I lucked out and didn’t come across it too much in prostitution except for some men who wanted to wear certain feminine items, etc. I always felt there was something more they wanted from me than a fuck, but I couldn’t understand it. It scared me.

    Anyway, I just can’t stand that these two groups are being lumped together in the “trans” movement. To me they are as far apart as possible and it is vital to distinguish them. Homosexual trans people are of no danger to women and, I believe, were/are our allies. But autogynephilic men are absolutely dangerous, physically and politically. They are far, far worse than regular misogynists and I guess the crime statistics prove this. While regular men are drawn to porn and necrophilia, autogynephilic pervs seek to cannibalize us. In honor of Priscilla and other friends I had, I’m not gonna put up with this shit.

  • FierceMild

    But women do not experience the world *as women* in an incredibly diverse amount of ways. Humans experience the world in a multiplicity of ways, women are human so that part is correct.

  • Resse

    One can use something as an example for criticism without disproving and rejecting everything about it completely and while this article fails to make that distinction I like the discussion. I just wouldn’t call the transgender rights movement superficial, it brings attention to gender as a social construct, fluid and not hardwired, well at the same time I understand radfems see the trans discussion presented as harmfully reductive with the attention payed to transwomen presenting as traditionally feminine, I don’t think that’s the whole story, I think it get’s a disproportional amount of attention precisely because of sexism, femininity seen as demeaning and destructive and not respect so I don’t see transwomen co-opting the discussion of sexism to suit their agenda, they can’t co-opt it when it is directed at them.

  • Anthocerotopsida

    “If hours and raising kids are taken into account, as well as what boys and girls choose to study as they grow up, we’ve all the explanation needed.”
    This idea has been debunked. Also, “gendered choices” are the result of a sexist society that doesn’t let males and females freely make whatever choice they might like, and which, SURPRISE, screws women over the most.
    Provide us with your exciting new data or shut up with this tired old garbage.

  • Wren

    “I wish that, instead of demanding to suck at the tit of feminism until
    its drained of all resources, people would put on their grown-up pants
    and join the struggle.”

    Best. Line. Ever.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Feminists will let go of gender just as soon as men stop beating and raping us — deal?

    • Resse

      I thought gender was not the same thing as sex? so we will still fight for women’s rights.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Perhaps I misunderstood your comment. Gender is still necessarily a focus for feminism because women and men are still socialized into femininity and masculinity. So we need to keep fighting it, meaning we can’t ‘let it go’…

  • Morag999

    “Gender is just that, stereotypes. You can’t have gender and not be following stereotypes.”

    Absolutely! Not sure why this is a such tricky concept for those who have bought into transgenderism wholesale.

    But it’s really quite simple. As soon as one declares that he or she is not the sex they objectively are, they have engaged in stereotyping the sexes.

    If you deny your sex, that denial is a function of an idea of what your sex ought to be. Doesn’t matter exactly what that idea is — it’s ALWAYS an inflexible, stereotyped idea, if it leads you to deny your obvious, objective sex.

    And of course, you can’t claim to be a sex you are NOT without holding an idea in your mind of what that other sex IS. Again, the idea has to be fixed, a stereotype, in order for you to “know” that that’s what you are. It doesn’t matter how you present/express yourself or what you say about your gendered nature. There’s no way NOT to stereotype, because the very basis of an identity that’s in conflict with a person’s obvious sex, must, by necessity, be constructed by what you believe the other sex is in some universal sense — that is, a stereotype.

  • Tired feminist

    Feminists are the people who most “let go of gender” in this world.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    Yes there are also the cock and balls and they are always male organs cause that’s the way momma nature likes it, go yell terf at her, brotato chip.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    What woman? You’re a dude.

  • Tired feminist

    Did you know computer programming used to be women’s work, and as such pretty badly paid? It was when men started to join the profession that it gradually gained prestige and raised salaries. Same with nursing.

    The opposite is true, too. When a once male-dominated field becomes balanced or female-dominated, the pay drops. So it’s not that women “choose” lower-paying jobs, it’s that employers are generally undervaluing women’s work and overvaluing men’s.

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html

    • Fedeli d’amore

      Thats not really true as a whole. Nursing is still a female profession, as are teaching, as are all the caring professions. Mean income has dropped for everyone, male nurses as well as female. Mining, working on roads or an oil rig, in the army and prison system, are male dominated and some of the lowest tier and most dangerous jobs in western civilisation, and are male dominated.
      We seem to be playing on the apex fallacy here by conveniently ignoring all the crap that our fathers, brothers and sons have had to work for hundreds of years.

      • Tired feminist

        Did you even read the article I posted? OF COURSE nursing is still a female-dominated profession, what I’m saying is that average salaries raise when men enter a once “woman-only” field. In other words you guys are illogically overvalued.

        • Wren

          Haha! Yes, men are illogically overvalued 🙂

      • Cassandra

        Did someone say MINING?

  • Tired feminist

    Hahahaha, they don’t pass. Women have just been socialized to be polite and don’t mention it.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “So what if Avery is presented in a ‘regressive way’? Just because an individual is trans doesn’t mean they’re all progressive and ready to tear down gender role.”

    The article is not a critique of the individual in question. Avery is a child, for goodness sake. The critique is of the claim that the two covers designed by National Geographic equate to a “gender revolution.” The article also discusses discourse that surrounds trans people, in this case, discourse perpetuated by adults that equate femininity with being female, as though gender stereotypes are innate. This is all made very clear in the article…

    And to answer your question, transwomen are male. And no, I do not “see why it is terrible” to acknowledge that. Is there something wrong with being male and not identifying with masculinity?

    If we are talking about gender stereotypes, it is always the ‘right time and place’ to talk about women as women are the ones who are oppressed by the system of patriarchy, which has invented and reinforces the gender stereotypes that support male domination.

    I’m really, again, just repeating everything already explained in the piece, and seeing as we are all very busy — not just you — might I suggest you read and consider the article at hand before commenting on it, forcing people to simply reexplain things that have already been explained in detail.

    Best.

  • Meghan Murphy

    No feminists exclude prostituted women from the movement. Prostituted women are our sisters and are leaders in this movement. Please don’t make assumptions about feminism simply because you read it on the internet.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “I’ll stand with the people being fucking murdered, before I stand with yet another privileged white women who pretends they care about other women whilst trying to hide the fact that all they care is about how much money they get paid.”

    What on earth are you talking about??? Have you read nothing on this site before? Do you have any idea what the feminist movement is fighting for???

  • Meghan Murphy

    You aren’t a feminist, Hiri.

    • Hiri Nurmi

      ad hominem

      • Meghan Murphy

        I disagree. What is it you think feminism is, I wonder?

    • ptittle

      Open question to everyone interested in this particular thread – what are the most convincing (evidence-wise) accounts for and against the view that male and female brains differ? I’d like to read one of each, thanks.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Do you think you’re fooling anyone at all here, Fedeli? Your MRA shit is completely transparent.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Oh my god. No, this is not an argument about semantics. We are arguing against the notion of gender identity. Trans would not exist if not for gender.

    • Just Passing Through

      What she said ^

  • Melanie

    Yes, because those reasons are sexist and regressive and this is a feminist website.

  • Kendall Turtle

    Gender isn’t fluid, it’s a social construct to oppress females…. it need some to be smashed.

  • Kendall Turtle

    I just want to say, that the most influential ages in children’s lives is between 0-3, if they are treated as a certain sex for those first three years it will effect how they act and think for the rest of their lives.

  • Meghan Murphy

    One could argue it’s them who are doing the excluding, eh? Consider the concerted erasure of prostituted women and women of colour from the feminist movement…

    • Ellen Fry

      Simply not true, as I explained in my above post, women who have been trafficked/coerced into the sex industry NEED to be listened to, their voices matter so much, BUT to lump them in with all sex workers as ‘people who need to be saved’ is such a toxic narrative.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Literally no one has said that.

        • Wren

          God I wished somebody had saved me 🙁

      • Tired feminist

        Women in the sex industry do need help. And they also need to be listened to. The two aren’t mutually exclusive, ffs.

        • Wren

          Right! And they want help, but most of the time it’s help like “here’s free condoms” or “turn to Jesus” and not real material help like money for a stable and safe place to live, health care, expunging of records, help to treat PTSD,etc. (don’t get me started about finding adequate mental health care if you’ve been prostituted. The whole field is so fucking behind and inexperienced). Also, a lot of help that’s extended has a dark side to it. Prostituted and abused women would rather go it alone than be exploited in another way, or be brainwashed and controlled by “helpers.” That’s all I’ll say about it now.

      • Alienigena

        The voices of women in the sex industry matter? But you dismiss the voices of women commenting on this blog posting who were involved in the sex industry and who don’t share your perspective on things.

  • Meghan Murphy

    It is amazing that you, as a 20 something, privileged white woman, feel entitled to erase women of colour, working class women, and prostituted women from the feminist movement and still identify as a feminist. It is laughable that you would call radical feminists and socialists “conservative.” Either you are incredibly ignorant or a shameless liar.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You are full of shit. Stop embarrassing yourself. Prostituted women write for this website. You should listen to them. You claim to be a feminist but seem to hate feminists and apparently have no clue what is actually going on in the movement.

    Your comments are ignorant and nonsensical and not worth responding to. If you paid any attention at all, surely you would know that no one here is worried about women “being allowed to express their femininity.”

  • Cassandra

    “Perhaps older women just grow bored with men.”
    I think most women are bored with men. You’re just not afraid to say it when you’re a little older. 🙂

  • Tired feminist

    In my home country, an average of 15 women are killed per day.

    Fifteen. Per DAY.

    Feminists have priorities.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “Native Americans,” huh? You know Indigenous cultures are very diverse and that you sound like a racist when you speak on behalf of so called “Native Americans” in defense of this privileged, Western, neoliberal fad, right?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Arguing against the notion of innate gender and gender as a personal identity does not ‘beat down’ any group of marginalized people.

  • Ellen Fry

    Nope, born with a vagina, have lived my life with the pronouns ‘she’, but recently have been exploring my masculine side, and find my gender is more fluid than I once thought it was. But well done on the assumptions again.

    • Meghan Murphy

      You don’t have a masculine side. Masculinity is a social construction and is socially imposed. It is not something that exists inside of you.

    • Zuzanna Smith

      So you bought a flannel shirt? Congratulations, you are now a man.

      • Ellen Fry

        Ahh thank you for telling me my gender! I wasn’t certain until an anonymous person on the internet told me what I was. Thank you so much for clearing that up for me 😀

      • Morag999

        Ha!

    • Tired feminist

      What is your “masculine side” other than sexist stereotypes about how men and women behave?

  • Cassandra

    Everything you wrote has been argued here over and over again. Why prostitution is a human rights abuse; #notall”sexworkers!”; getting fucked 8 times a day is totes the same thing as MINING! (and it’s the men who are buying sex who are disgusting, btw).

    You have still not given us a sufficient definition of “gender.” What is “gender”? What is a woman? What is a man? “People were trans before the millennium” What does this even mean? Are there history books and writings about this that I’m not aware of? Did the “trans” people tell the females that talking about their periods was LITERALLY KILLING them?

    TERF is used as a slur. It’s the new “Shut up, bitch” and you know it. I don’t think there is such a thing as “transphobia” or “transphobic.” I believe in biology as what defines male or female. That by definition is “transphobic” to you. There’s nowhere to go from there. I don’t think understanding human sexual reproduction and biology is a bad thing and I refuse to live in a world of utter delusion. I don’t KNOW it’s a bad thing to be transphobic because “transphobic” has no material meaning. I am not AFRAID of people who say they’re trans. I don’t HATE them. Disagreeing with the idea of gendered brains and essences does not make me afraid or hateful.

    You’ve got to try harder, dude.

    • Ellen Fry

      ‘I’m not scared of homosexuals, I don’t hate them. Disagreeing with the idea of sexuality and how it’s a choice does not make me afraid or hateful’ – Who you would have been 50 years ago.

      • Cassandra

        You are intellectually dishonest.

        • Alienigena

          And she is a pompous blowhard.

      • Leo

        I reckon around 50 years ago I might have been one of those objecting to medical abuses like lobotomies, if they hadn’t managed to drag me off for one first, since I have mental illnesses. Maybe you’d have been one of those saying it was for us crazies’ own good. Psychology has a long shameful history of abuses, what makes you so sure they have it right this time? Especially when even the professionals are admitting they don’t really know? Go read up on it at Fourth Wave Now. You might want to start with information that many gender non-conforming children grow up to be gay and lesbian adults (see Iran, where transition is practised as gay conversion therapy: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29832690). While you’re at it, you should also go find out about the ‘cotton ceiling’ and the abuse directed at lesbians (same sex attracted females) who do not want to sleep with males.

        What were you saying about gay rights, again?

  • Meghan Murphy

    You should try actually talking to an Indigenous feminist about your comments and your efforts to shove neoliberal, Western ‘gender identity’ into “Native American culture.” I have.

    You do not have the knowledge or authority to speak specifically to the ways indigenous communities organized themselves in terms of gender pre-invasion. Neither do I. It’s doubtful any one person has this knowledge, as there were/are so many different nations. That said, one of my Indigenous sisters told me that the term “two spirit” was coined in the 1990s and is now widely used. Gender is used in a particular way today, under patriarchy, in the West and cannot be applied to these culture, pre-colonialism.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Do you have any stats you can share with us? Do you believe this has anything to do with prostitution and homophobia? Do you know who it is who is killing transwomen? Why aren’t you yelling at the men/johns who are killing transwomen?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Those are two very different sentences. “Sex workers are all people who need to be saved” is not a thing that any feminist says. Stop oversimplifying feminist analysis and activism in order to more easily dismiss it.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Well now, this is getting ridiculous. You are very clearly being intentionally obtuse. Again, pretending as though feminism is a movement of white privileged women erases the reality of the movement and the women in it, including working class women, prostituted women, and women of colour.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Well now you’re not even reading your own words…

  • Cassandra

    One more time for those who haven’t paid attention in class:
    There is no such thing as a male brain. There is no such thing as a female brain. Gender is not hardwired.

    Also, please stop talking in riddles.

  • Ellen Fry

    That’s really fucking hurtful. But well done, you made a 19 year old girl on the internet trying to have a debate (because she wants to have a career in it), cry. Hope you’re proud.

    • Kendall Turtle

      Well you are the one acting as though we have NO idea what transactivism is and we are all a bunch of dummy’s, calling us swerfs (ignoring all the prostituted women who write for feminist current and comment here) and terfs… do you think that isn’t really fucking hurtful? To misrepresent everything our movement is and what it is doing? Fuck off with your strawmans and superiority. Damn.

    • Cassandra

      You haven’t tried to have a debate. You arrived here and pelted us with a bunch of gender studies mumbo jumbo and anti-feminist hooey. If you really are a 19-year-old-girl on the Internet who wants to have a career in debate (politics?), you need to toughen up; especially if you’re interested in this area, because *we’re* the nice ones.

      Consider making yourself a soothing cup of tea and pondering why this happened. Is it because we’re a bunch of meanies or perhaps because you’re not quite as informed on some issues as you believe you are?

    • hellkell

      Oof, you might want to shelve that “career in debate” plan until you actually learn the fundamentals of rhetoric.

      And there’s no crying in baseball or feminism. Nice try though.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Re: your edit and claim to desire debate — this is hard to believe, considering you entered into this ‘debate’ using anti-feminist slurs and by misrepresenting people’s opinions… Perhaps if you truly do wish for a debate, you might consider arguing in good faith and avoiding misrepresentation, smears, and slurs. If you want to learn, read, ask questions, respond with integrity. Surely you are aware there is a long history of attacks on feminists? Surely you are aware that the slurs you used are used as threats — to harass, discredit, silence, and smear? Do you think that this was the best way to enter into a sincere discussion if you truly did just want to learn? How did you expect people to respond? People who have been attacked and threatened and silenced and smeared for years? I have had my job threatened through the use of the slurs you brought here. I have been attacked in much worse ways — ways you don’t even want to know — and those attacks have been justified on the basis that I was a “SWERF” and “TERF.” Consider that the words you use may be harmful. You’ll find people will be much more interested in and willing to engage with you if you treat them with respect and integrity. Best of luck.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Totally fine. None of us are perfect. But I do ask you to reconsider your approach and use or anti-feminist slurs.

  • Kendall Turtle

    Well she couldn’t possibly be a woman interested in those sorts of things, that’s what the men do! /sarcasm

    • Cassandra

      I know. It’s so sad how far we’ve fallen that people think having a warrior shield in your grave means you were trans gender or defied gender or were the opposite sex or something. I guess Athena and Artemis were trans, too. They weren’t goddesses; they were gods. God, it’s all so confusing when you live in the fun house.

  • Meghan Murphy

    They are slurs because they are inaccurate, because they misrepresent feminist politics and analysis, because they exist in order to shut down debate rather than open it up, and because they exist to smear, silence, dismiss, and discredit women. They are used in order to defend verbal abuse and threats of violence. A slur is defined as “an insinuation or allegation about someone that is likely to insult them or damage their reputation.” This is the entire purpose of “SWERF” and “TERF.”

    • Ellen Fry

      But that in itself implies that you know being transphobic is a bad thing? It’s like saying ‘racist’ is a slur. When you’re a racist but you don’t want to be called a racist because nobody likes a racist.

      • Meghan Murphy

        No, it’s not like saying ‘racist’ is a slur. As I’ve already explained, “TERF” and “SWERF” is an intentional misrepresentation of our politics, which have nothing to do with bigotry (unlike racism, which does), but rather have to do with a systemic analysis and opposition to male supremacy.

      • Hannah

        The way it is used makes it a slur https://terfisaslur.com/

        We are not comparable to racists because we want our own spaces. Are you insane?
        Here are a couple videos that say it better than I can: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uInq30AiRvY
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpzMW9WDq7w&t=1s

  • radwonka

    “I’ve been told that T/SWERF is a slur, and that I shouldn’t be putting other women down like that, when firstly, it just describes what you are. You are trans/sex worker exclusionary, and you are a radical feminist.”

    Radical feminism is against patriarchal institutions. The thing is: we dont exclude women, we exclude ideologies that are anti-radical feminist. So it would be more correct to call us “Patriarchy exclusionary radical feminists”, but that would be a PLEONASM. So radical feminism is just radical feminism basically.
    On the other hand “Sex work inclusionnary radical feminism”, or “Trans ideology radical feminism”, is an oxymoron.
    Just like it doesnt make sense to call them (the people who cant stand our ideology) “Radical feminist exclusionary feminists” or “Patriarchy inclusive feminists”, because all ideologies, technically, have limits.

    Of ALL ideologies, radical feminism is the only one blamed for being itself. Where are the “Conservatives exclusionary socialism” or “Religions exclusionary marxism” etc? How come our movement should be inclusive of opposites ideologies but other movements are left intact? Why dont people create their own movement if they dont like 99% of radical writings? Why do they want something that they dont like anyway?

    All political movements have goals and a very precise ideology. Vice versa: even if you change the name of a movement or an ideology, what *constitutes* it will always benefit a system and oppose another one. There is no “inclusive of everything” ideology or religion. For example: liberal “feminists” spend their whole time talking about “exclusions” and yet exclude 100% of radical feminism from their analysis and refuse to communicate with radical feminists, which is why it is no surprise that they promote stereotypes and outdated social roles (which includes institutions like prostitution).

    TERF/SWERF are slurs because the same people who use it, think that those labels are enough to justify death threats, defamation (one of the main accusation is that we *literally* kill people when we dont agree with them) and censorship. It is the new “feminazi”/”radscum”/”misandry”/”ugly lesbian”/etc basically, it denaturizes our ideology and deforms our words.
    Also these concepts prove that actual “feminists” cant see women without stereotypes ( gender or prostitution are both are patriarchal institutions). And that’s where we disagree: we think that women can live without patriarchal roles when liberal “feminists” (they arent really feminists, but that is another topic) think that women are either born to become men if they dont conform to stereotypes or born to serve men.

    Why debate with us when you could just demonize as twerswerfterf and abracadabra! we become suddenly the worst human beings on earth! Why? They never explain. Why is our ideology incorrect? They dont say. Why is it horrible that an ideology cant change? They dont say.

    Anyway, I think it is quite interesting that people are surprised that radical feminism is, well, radical feminism. It’s not our fault though: these people never tried to understand our arguments.

    “This is the type of shit that turns me away from feminism. It makes me physically sick that you could be so cruel to people who just want to be acknowledged as people.”

    Ha accusations again. “shit”/”cruel”/”you dont acknowledged people as people”, ok ok, proof? Citations? Arguments?

    • Wren

      “Of ALL ideologies, radical feminism is the only one blamed for being itself.”
      There is a simple explanation for this: we are the only ones who are a true threat.

      • FierceMild

        Word

  • Wren

    That’s because many of them are being prostituted. Therefore, are you anti-prostitution? You say we’re “sex-worker exclusionary.” You do know that many of us have been prostituted, or have you only just got here?

    And btw, the murders of women are never reported as hate crimes either, usually just “crimes of passion” or something. And all are killed by men, not “cis people”.

  • Wren

    It is absolutely ignorant and despicable to compare being prostituted to working in a mine. Please read up on labor laws and just use some common sense. You are young, please stop believing this nonsense and change your trajectory.

  • Shalice

    Cis is an insult. Cis is about taking control over real women. Today we agree to cis, tomorrow they will say we are no longer allowed the term woman. Screw that. We reject your BS.

  • Kendall Turtle

    Why in the world do you think she should consider your viewpoint when you are completely strawmanning her?

  • Kendall Turtle

    why are you assuming they are trans and not just people pursuing their own interests?

  • Tired

    All that shows is that some items in a grave have been interpreted as female when they were dug up, nothing else. Could have been a lovers token, men could have worn necklaces as per your point below(and still do), and holy shit are you trying to trans shield maidens now (pretty funny actually as you’re on a website arguing with a bunch of warrior women :).
    I buried a T bone steak with my dog when he died as it was his favourite food and he hadn’t been allowed it for ages as he was poorly and I was grief stricken, this doesn’t make him a bovine otherkin. Whatever is buried with a person says more about the grieving people than it does the person buried who is the only person who has no actual control over what goes in the grave with them.

    And men have always and still do wear clothes in some societies (eg lava lavas in the Pacific Islands and longish robes in various middle eastern and eg India, Pakistan, Afghanistan etc) that could be marked as ‘female’ in some distant future

  • Cassandra

    “Secondly, by doing this, you are saying that a lot of women don’t have the common sense to choose their own career path, so if you’re saying you’re against women choosing their own job, but only when it comes to sex work.”

    That is not what I’m saying at all.

    I ask you this: In what context is the “choice” made? What forces are at work? Why is this even a choice? IT SHOULD NOT BE A CHOICE. MEN SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PURCHASE WOMEN.

    Why is this so difficult to wrap your head around?

  • Cassandra

    I’m glad that was clear to you. That you can’t understand why it’s a human rights issue and that you are so caught up in the non-feminist feminism that says “choice” and “agency” non-stop like a Chatty Cathy doll is sad.

    I’ll say it one more time so that maybe you can think about it:
    PAYING TO STICK YOUR DICK IN SOMEBODY SHOULD NOT EXIST.

  • Cassandra

    This is just patently deceiving. Read up on brain plasticity and WHY differences in grown male and female brains exist. It is NOT because they were born that way.

    Duh.

  • Cassandra

    “Queerness spectrum” indeed.

  • Fouraces

    A lot of what you’re saying in this comment is very similar to what MRAs say, fyi. The others are not having much patience in replying to you because many of these points have been addressed over and over. If you are sincere in wanting to learn and debate, why not go through a few earlier articles posted here on prostitution and gender first? If you still have disagreements after, well at least you wouldn’t be rehashing. That is much more efficient, no?

  • Cassandra

    “This is why a HUGE amount of young trans kids and teens commit suicide. How do you not understand that your ideology contributes to that problem?”

    First of all it’s “number” of trans kids, not “amount.”

    If trans kids are committing suicide, it is not because radical feminists understand human sexual dimorphism. Being “different” in this fucked-up gender-worshiping male supremacist shithole of a world is painful. These kids are most likely just gay. Or just not your average dudbro dickhead or girl brainwashed into thinking the Kardashians are neat-o.

    These kids are committing suicide because things are more rigid than ever in regard to GENDER ROLES. The rigidity is a product of the backlash we’re currently in — a backlash against the gains women have made and a backlash against the gains gays and lesbians have made. Then along comes the idea of “trans” to further enforce “gender” under the guise of being liberal. It turns the idea of human SEXuality on its head and demands that everybody go along with it. It tells lesbians they’re “bigots” for not wanting suck “female dick.” This is HOMOPHOBIC. This is RAPE CULTURE. (Funny how nobody’s telling gay men they’re “bigots” for not wanting to go down on female people. Hmmmm…. that’s just so strange! Why is that? Why could that be? So puzzling!)

    Our “ideology” is reality. Saying that feminists who understand that the female reproductive system is the source of female oppression and that people who have male reproductive systems are not female is what’s contributing to “queer” teens committing suicide is breathtakingly ignorant and dishonest.

  • Cassandra

    “OK, so you don’t believe in gender identity or in gender as a construct…”

    GENDER *is* a construct.
    SEX is not.

    GENDER IS THE PROBLEM.

  • Cassandra

    What does a woman feel like?

  • Cassandra

    What is a woman?

  • Cassandra

    I feel embarrassed for you kiddo. Someday, if you open your eyes and ears and start to think for yourself, and live in this world as a female (if that is indeed what you are) for another 15 years or so, you’ll look back on what you’re saying now and cringe.

  • Cassandra

    And it’s so OBVIOUS.

  • Cassandra

    “I almost feel like there’s a bit of internalized misogyny in your article as well and that you’re disparaging stereotypical femininity as artifice.”

    Femininity IS artifice. It is imposed on female people and brutally policed.

  • Cassandra

    Yeah, funny about that. It’s almost like trans women were socialized male and trans men were socialized female. What a coincidence!

  • Cassandra

    How do you “identify” as a female?

    People can “identify” however they want. We’re not stopping them. We simply have no obligation to validate it.

  • Cassandra

    If they have now or ever had a penis, they are not women, “Madera.” Are you practicing for your gay eugenics clinic, I mean, “gender” clinic grand opening speech? Are you going to hire a band and a clown and have balloons and everything?

    Join us at the corner of Cis and Bullshit on Saturday for the unveiling of Madera’s Eugenics Clinic. Free estrogen! Free testosterone! Two-for-one Lupron starter kits! Sterilize your gay child faster than ever! Free feminization classes for the first 100 people to arrive and say “TERF TRANSPHOBIA TERF TRANSPHOBIA 50 times fast! Come on down!

  • Tired feminist

    This is not what I asked. Please answer my question.

  • Cassandra

    “Women experience the world in an incredibly diverse amount [sic] of ways.”

    This is pure postmodern horse shit, used to tear down unity among females. And you’re spitting it out like a good little girl.

  • Tired feminist

    But this is in the entire world, isn’t it? I’m talking only about my country.

  • Melanie

    When I was 19 I was homeless and in prostitution. Due to my experience and what I witnessed other girls, women and young men experience and the circumstances that we came from, I’m against the institution of prostitution – not the people in it. I and other women here don’t deserve thoughtless, dismissive slurs like ‘SWERF’. These terms are simply used to exclude and shut up women who have a different, inconvenient perspective so that our voices are not heard. Women are not responsible for male violence. We shouldn’t be badgered into accepting harmful, sexist practices and ideologies that impact our lives and legal rights because men commit violence. Please stick to reasoned arguments, not offensive slurs, guilt trips and emotional manipulation. By the way, I find it interesting that there are no slurs for the men who actually commit this violence. What’s that all about?

    • Cassandra

      Very clearly and concisely said.

  • Cassandra

    Dear fidel castrato d’amore:
    What is it about these articles that gets you Men’s Rights Activists so excited?

  • Tired feminist

    Ellen, why don’t you go post your comments on prostitution on one of the several Feminist Current articles dealing specifically with this topic? Just please read them first…

  • Tired feminist

    You’re conflating sex and gender again. Reptiles have no gender (unless in the taxonomical meaning in which every species belongs to a gender, and this is obviously not what feminists are talking about).

  • Tired feminist
  • Melanie

    No, the point is that Avery was deliberately posed and dressed that way in order to send the message that this is what a girl is – passive, pretty, ‘girly’, which is sexism and a very harmful message to send to girls. We understand that girls and women feel immense pressure to conform to those stereotypes.

  • Melanie

    She’s so smart and funny. Love!

  • FierceMild

    Go read Everyday Sexism and get some notion of what the ‘average woman’ starts putting up with before puberty even hits. You may find you recognize more of those experiences than you expected to.

  • Fedeli d’amore

    I agree. But intersections of privilege mean that sex alone is not the only determinant, and this should be obvious. A male to female transexual is not enjoying the ‘privilege’ of their gender, and if they lack class privilege they may end up far below the privilege status of most women. This is why this article is so spaghetti-wired. These are some of the least privileged people in our culture and yet I’m being called an MRA for pointing out there is probably more important things here than pretending we are worse off.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    I wonder if young women like Ellen see the erasure of females in the media and transactivism and equate it as many young people are seeming to do with the fault being in actually being female not the hierarchy of gender. Like, if you can identify out of being female (as Ellen says, she is an almost “cis” woman and is “exploring her masculine side”) then she no longer is a victim of being the lowest form of human, so low that they took our pronouns away because we are so basic that men can do a better job of woman-ing, and we are no longer fit to exist even on a magazine cover next to the super cool progressive “gender identities”.

  • Hannah

    Nobody here looks down on them, radical feminists are the only people actually trying to change things and help them. This makes it very clear that you are arguing with us without actually knowing our position at all. Time and time again on this site, Meghan and others at FC and commenters want the focus to be on the men involved and their abuse. All this time spent “arguing” (if you can even call it that) with us would be better spent reading the articles.

    • Cassandra

      She has swallowed the bullshit hook, line and sinker. Pimps and johns and MRA’s looooooove women like Ellen.

  • Interesting points; I’ll be saving the articles to read later.

  • Tired feminist

    Didn’t you say you were leaving this discussion or something?

    In any case, here are a few things you need to learn before accusing radical feminists of not being intersectional:

    – the meaning of intersectionality;
    – that ‘white feminism’ is not a real thing;
    – that radical feminists of color, in the other hand, are a very real thing;
    – the meaning of ‘woman’;
    – the meaning of ‘feminism’.

    Bonus if you learn the origin and fundaments of patriarchy, as this could help you understand why prostitution is not work.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yeah, Indigenous people, women, the working class all just ‘need’ to be discriminated against. That’s how oppression works. You got it.

    And just because people have it worse than you doesn’t mean systemic class oppression doesn’t exist.

  • Meghan Murphy

    What is a ‘transmasculine individual’? Whatever that is, yes, if they are female, we would call them ‘female.’ Feminists have clarified over and over again that biological sex (why the scare quotes?) and gender are not the same thing — this is precisely why we say that while sex is unchangeable and a biological fact, gender is a social construct and socially imposed on people.

    There is no such thing as ‘gender identity.’ We’ve explained why many times over. It is not ‘transphobic’ to articulate what gender is and how it exists. Stop trying to shut down discourse you don’t understand or like simply because you aren’t willing to step out of your box and do some critical thinking.

    • Sunni Johnson

      Exactly how are you not imposing gender as a social construct on people who experience gender dysphoria? What exactly are your credentials to make you an expert on biological sex and trans-issues? I don’t see that you understand anything more than anyone else, you just SAY you do. Talk about shutting down discourse…

      • Meghan Murphy

        Gender is socialized. It is not ‘imposed’ by feminists who argue against gender. Everyone knows what biological sex is despite the mass gaslighting efforts of the gender identity movement. I fail to see how I’ve shut down discourse by questioning mainstream discourse around gender, as a feminist.

        • Sunni Johnson

          Is Feminist Current so radical as to be femme for femme, no sex with heterosexual men, and complete rejection of *beauty standards* like make-up, etc, or do you just hate transpeople?

          • Meghan Murphy

            Why don’t you try reading some articles here, engaging with the actual words people are saying, answering the questions people are asking, instead of just saying a bunch of nonsensical, unrelated things in order to avoid engaging in conversations that might possibly go somewhere.

          • Sunni Johnson

            Why don’t you try to get over your ideologies that limit people from expressing themselves because you’re afraid to share space with other people? You’ve not answered a single question I’ve asked with any certainty than some debate team bullshit you learned via your privileged academia. Adhering to one form of oppression while fighting another form of oppression isn’t a good look.

          • Meghan Murphy

            The ‘ideology’ that limits people from expressing themselves is called ‘patriarchy,’ dear.

          • Sunni Johnson

            Another brilliant definition you made up for yourself to post with certainty alongside your hetero Vagisil Feminist Current ad space. You are taking every liberty to oppress other people, specifically transpeople, and therefore, like the patriarchy, are an oppressor. If you aren’t willing to admit it, there is nothing else to say.

          • Meghan Murphy

            K byeeeee?

          • Alienigena

            I think the only person seeing the Vagisil ad is you. I have never seen it on this site. What sites are you visiting that prompts the system to display those ads? Are you implying that born women are diseased? Because that is the impression you are giving me. Sort of like the men (johns) who imply that all prostitutes are diseased (and lesser humans) and that no john ever gave a prostitute an STI or other disease (hepatitis).

          • FierceMild

            Wow, you like to use scattershot when you’re loosing, don’t you? But it won’t work here, you’ll need an actual argument.

      • Wren

        There is no such thing as a gender disorder. Gender roles are stupid behavioral laws that keep people stuck in status quo sanctioned hamster wheels to nowhere. Women must be ladies and boys will be boys, yada yada. Saying it’s a disorder to want to be yourself with an intact body is fucking medieval.

    • Sunni Johnson

      Also did you just ask me what transmasculine is and yet write this article? Okay, girl.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Can you answer?

  • Meghan Murphy

    You are an MRA. It’s pretty clear from the way you keep pretending women’s oppression doesn’t exist and that women only believe they are oppressed because they have some kind of ‘victim mentality.’ You think your Christina Hoff Sommers crap isn’t transparent af? You are using transactivism as a means to support your MRA talking points and try to pretend away patriarchal oppression, which is actually quite revealing, in terms of the purpose of transactivism, more broadly.

    My point, re: having written articles, is obviously that I do have a point, and I’ve outlined it very clearly over and over again. You either don’t wish to read, or you have read and have just chosen to ignore what I’ve said.

    This is what we call “trolling.”

  • radwonka

    A summary of the 877 comments:

    Person A: this is transphobic/mean/cruel/shit/etc
    Person B: how so?
    Person A: *crickets*

    Person A: biological sex is not the same thing as gender
    Person B: yeah we know
    Person A: humans are more than their physical bodies!
    Person B: how so?
    Person A: *crickets*

    Person A: the idea of female bodies is the real source of oppression, patriarchy created females
    Person B: how so?
    Person A: *crickets*

    Person A: let me educate you!
    Person B: ok
    Person A: *crickets*

    Person A: you dont want to believe that gender identity is real
    Person B: why should I?
    Person A: *crickets*

    Person A: intersex/transmasculine/white feminism/femme is femme/freedom of “gender expression”/etc
    Person B: what does it have to do with humans as a dimorphic specie? what does it have to do with our arguments?
    Person A: *crickets*

    Person A: it is the spectrum
    Person B: what spectrum?
    Person A: *crickets*

    Person A: biological sex has nothing do with sex
    Person B: then what is biological sex then?
    Person A: *crickets*

    Person A: biological sex is about genitals ew!
    Person B: so?
    Person A:*crickets*

    You are welcome.

  • Lucia Lola

    Just so people know, the National Geographic as its been historically known as a photojournalistic book has changed recently and not in a good way. Just a couple of months back it featured an issue about the “selfie” age and had on its front cover, a group of young women, all tearing off their shirts with their backs to the camera. It was supposed to represent us millenials enjoying the outdoors but it was clearly an attempt to cash in on well…body positivity? Nothing to do with the article within outside of grabbing attention with gratuitous semi nudity (or alluding to it).

    Ridiculous shit. Just like this sensationalist photo(s) and article. It’s the flavour of the year, ala Caitlin Jenner only under the guise of supposed investigative journalism. They know exactly what they’re doing.

  • Si Llage

    I’ve got a running tally going for how many times defenders of men’s right to purchase sex refer to “miners”, usually of the “coal” type.

    The public relations men who were paid millions by pimps to put that one specific example into people’s heads did their job well.

    Y’all never reach for loggers, fishers, construction workers, truck drivers, liquor store owners…and you never question the strange uniformity of the “miner” example.

    • Wren

      ugh gross.

    • fennec

      “I’ve got a running tally going for how many times defenders of men’s right to purchase sex refer to “miners”, usually of the “coal” type. … …Y’all never reach for loggers, fishers, construction workers, truck drivers, liquor store owners…and you never question the strange uniformity of the “miner” example.”

      Indeed! They’re more transparent (and terrified of female influence) than they know. Let’s examine this:

      “Coal miner” can be a metaphor for both the position of uncomfortable supplication and that of powerful conquest men imagine they must assume in getting what they want from women (use of & entry into female bodies).

      Looking first at the Conquest imagery, I see a coalition (see what I did there?) of men in collusion enabling each other to forcibly enter the cavities of that resistant & dirty Mother Earth (who is at once Nemesis as well as provider & maintainer of life, so therefore infuriatingly confusing to the male psyche). Approaching her is a descent, a literal lowering of self, and a terrible risk. After all, she may entrap and smother a man; she may even–because of her natural instability, you know–actually have a response to being assaulted, invaded, exploited, to having her physical integrity & her existential purpose undermined. Her awful rumblings, her collapse of autonomous sustainability (that he caused) will ultimately crush the vitality from him should he stick around. No, he is well-served to get in & get out with as little effect to himself as possible, to be relieved, rewarded, and proud at escaping with the prize, the commodity, the OBJECTive.

      There is no partnering with her for creation of a mutually viable reality; there is only man’s ordering of “his” realm, divorcing us all from the reality of Nature, and from the totality of human be-ing.

      But it is their perception of the Supplication imagery which leads them there: That idea of having to *put in effort* before penetrating the objective–to learn what she’s made of, to discover her qualities & requirements, and THEN to have to approach her, (hard)hat in hand, dressed for the occasion, seeking a ground where they can engage with her without threat of a humiliating shut-down of operations–THIS is what they resent and reject, because it’s work (not to mention the kind of work that men higher on the ladder, who don’t have to sweat as hard, consider demeaning). It means admitting there is NO entitlement, they have no mandate, they are not assured a certain outcome.

      Whether we are talking about males & females or men & Nature, this lack of assurance, this denial of certainty, rather than inspiring men to improve their knowledge of her, to change their interactions with her, impels them instead to overcome her by force and control, by degradation and intrusion, by destruction.

      I feel it is no accident, though it may not be at all deliberate, that the pro-exploitation lobby presents coal miners as their most apt allusion.

      • Mar Iguana

        Fennec, your comment may be the most beautifully eloquent explanation I’ve ever read describing why men hate and fear Mother Nature and Woman. Thank you.

  • FierceMild

    If you’re not a feminist, you’re not a free thinker.

  • FierceMild

    Actually a ludicrously complicated term used to obfuscate and envy a simple reality.

  • FierceMild

    Wait, these things are only found in women’s graves except when they’re in men’s graves?

  • FierceMild

    Now you’re saying that transfolk are men dressing in women’s clothing or women behaving in ways a society reserves for men? That is EXACTLY what we’ve been saying. Transwomen are men dressed as women. Trans men are women behaving in ways society reserves for men. So we agree.

  • FierceMild

    I really hope so. I’ve had friends tell me I’m just like people who tried to convert homosexuals to heterosexuality because I don’t think it’s okay to deny physical reality or perform surgery on perfectly healthy bodies.

    I think I’m a few years this trans movement will be seen in much the same way we now see trans-orbital lobotomies. A horror perpetrated on unhappy or unwell people for the convenience of others.

  • FierceMild

    I felt so taken in when I finally realized the actual reason people object to gay marriage. It’s because homosexual relationships actually challenge gender. That’s why it was so hard to get legal status for homosexuals and so easy for transfolk. Trans doesn’t challenge the status quo at all, it legitimizes it.

  • FierceMild

    Don’t forget the father son and holy (male) ghost.

  • FierceMild

    So do all of us who can see the Emporer has no clothes!

  • FierceMild

    Then why isn’t is okay for Rachel Dolezal to identify as black?

  • Resse

    What about intersex people who have ovaries and a uterus and a penis? are they men or women?
    Does it not make sense that their could be people with physiologically homogeneous bodies and intersex circuity?

    • Meghan Murphy

      They are intersex.

  • Resse

    I think the language used in trans activism can be regressive only because that’s the language their forced to utilize when they live in a conservative and oppressive gender system. There is a place for trans and intersex people a long with men and women in our gender abolitionist revolution.

  • Tired feminist

    Fedeli, the reason why no one here cares about your arguments is because we’ve already heard them gazillions of times and they have all been debunked. You can’t expect us to patiently reply to every single one of them. Play the victim as much as you want, you’re free to do so and all that, but people are also free to mock you and/or assume you’re an MRA (especially when your arguments coincide with theirs in about 100%). Get over it.

  • FierceMild

    “Trans women have spoken…” gigglesnort. I had visions of the sky opening and cross dressing Yahweh shaking a sassy no-no finger at TERF-y radfems.

  • Cassandra

    You know it just dawned on me that you think that I am saying that the women who are prostituted are somehow committing human rights abuses. That’s what you think, right?

    You’re probably not reading these comments anymore but for anyone reading these comments whose head may be filled with the same liberal feminist horse shit in regard to “listen to sex workers” “it’s work like any other” and “choosey-choice-choice-choosing,” it is the MEN who see women as subhuman fucktoilets who are guilty of human rights abuse. Prostitution is a human rights abuse of the prostituted and a slap in the face to the humanity of ALL women. It is pure misogyny. The end.

    • Wren

      Only an absolute idiot would think you were talking about the women. Unfortunately absolute idiots abound.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Thanks so much for sharing your experience and these points, corvid.

  • hellkell

    Fucking straight people co-opting “queer” (which by the way, is a fucking slur), really need to stop. Yes, you’re a snowflake, have I validated your identity enough now?

  • Fouraces

    Regarding your last sentence, in theory yes, but in mainstream media a “Gender comes from within. Since I was a child I wanted to wear heels and makeup and that’s how I knew I am actually a woman. In fact these things make me the same as any other woman.” type of ideology is being campaigned instead.

    And it does make practical sense because “born this way” is easier to digest for the general population. But you cannot expect women to just fall in line with (false) ideologies that conflict with our interests, just because it is a shortcut for another group.

    • Resse

      Yes, the born this way strategy is used because it parallels the gay rights movement. The language can sometimes be regressive but remember they are using the vernacular of popular culture not creating it. Trans men and women live in a oppressive gender hierarchy too. “There is no such thing as gender” is a lot less accessible then “I was born this way .” Getting rid of the gender binary is a important step towards egalitarian gender revolution.

  • hellkell

    Yet for all your talk of hurtful words, you yourself use slurs. Oh-kay.

  • Cassandra

    What the fuck does any of this have to do with anything? A female had “warrior goods” in her grave. So what? Do you know how ridiculous you sound? I just read comments like yours with my mouth hanging open. Have you ever seen the movie Idiocracy? It’s like that.

  • Cassandra

    There were no points made.

    What is a sexist tool, by the way? Do you floss in between your braces with it? Do you pop your pimples with it? I take it sexist tools can talk, but why are they so important that it doesn’t matter what they say?

    (Don’t worry too much about the acne, by the way, you’ll probably outgrow it by the time you’re 25 or so. But please don’t pick at it with sexist tools; that can cause scarring.)

  • Cassandra

    “‘Gendered choices are the result of a sexist society’ completely ignores the reality of a masculine and feminine nature, where these ‘sexist’ cultural tendencies arose from in the first place.”

    No, MRA’s and transgender ideology are TOTES different, folks. Once a man puts on a dress and says he feels like a laydee it’s completely different!

  • Cassandra

    I add some egg and beer when I dip my head in victimology. And there are plenty more victimology beauty tips where that came from! Just check out my youtube vlog:
    victimologybeautyforever.com

  • radwonka

    “They literally throw everything out there to see if they can get one to stick. Whether it’s true or not doesn’t actually matter.”

    exactly, they throw random words expecting us to believe whatever they say but arent even able to define their own concepts. Really, no logical reasoning whatsoever, only guilt tripping and circular reasoning.

    • Wren

      which is why is so hard to fight! Then we give up (cause they’re fucking insane and who likes arguing with crazy people?? You can’t win.) and they think they won and they get that smug smirk. I fucking hate it.

  • radwonka

    Take away all the “you are mean!!!” guilt tripping and ad hominem, and there is literally nothing left.

  • Morag999

    “Melanie gets no response from Ellen Fry I see.”

    Yeah, this is the pattern. It’s exactly how you described it: the constant refrain is “listen to sex workers!” until yet another woman speaks unequivocally, in the first person, about how prostitution has harmed her, as well other women, children and men.

    Then what? Dead silence. That silence speaks volumes. They don’t practice what they preach. Pro-prostitution liberals just hit the mute button when women speak, when women share with them how men, via the institution of prostitution, have injured their bodies, their minds, their lives. They only hear female voices which are defending men’s pseduo-right to buy sexual access to other human beings — most of whom are girls. This has nothing to do with respect or concern: that they can hear pro sex-industry women speaking, is ONLY because they have, either directly or indirectly, created/constructed those women.

    By now, we have to conclude that the voices of so-called “sex workers” actually mean nothing to liberals who defend prostitution. Women who resist, who fight, who have survived against the odds, who want all girls and women to be liberated from all forms of prostitution have, apparently, zero credibility with the choose-my-choice crowd. They don’t, in fact, listen. It would seem that they just don’t care.

    • Wren

      “This has nothing to do with respect or concern: that they can hear pro
      sex-industry women speaking, is ONLY because they have, either directly
      or indirectly, created/constructed those women.”
      Absofuckinglutely.

  • Alienigena

    Like the list. A response to some of the accusations in that list.

    Re: “Genital obsessed fetishist!”

    Isn’t sex selective abortion based on ultrasound imaging of developing fetuses (e.g. images of their genitals) being used to distinguish male from female?

    Yes it is.

    http://www.ob-ultrasound.net/genderfaq.html

    Saying that feminists are obsessed with genitals is ridiculous. This entire society is obsessed with one sex’s genitals, i.e. male. They are featured everywhere (as graffiti on buildings, if not visually depicted in popular culture (film, tv, music) then talked about using slang terms). One can’t even represent female genitals without precipitating a cupcake apocalypse (see #vulvacupcakegate, not a real hashtag as far as I know, but should have been given the furor around vulvas depicted in icing on cupcakes). How retrograde is this culture? Would Judy Chicago’s exhibit “The Dinner Party” be considered transphobic in the present? If women’s genitals are on equal footing with men’s why are so many young women having surgery to reduce the size of their ‘parts’ (e.g. labia) to the point of eliminating sensation, due to nerve damage, in that area of their body).

    Re: “Biological essentialist!”

    There is a test now that determines the complement of sex chromosomes held by the developing fetus (i.e. tells parents whether their children are XX or XY) and it is being used by those wanting to selectively abort female fetuses. Again, who are the biological essentialists here? Mainstream society (which still has a preference for male children in many parts of the world) and frequently the lunatic fringe of violence threatening trans activists who want to erase the biological category of female from the planet.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4112725/

    http://diversityhealthcare.imedpub.com/noninvasive-fetal-sexing-medical-test-or-a-new-tool-for-sex-selection.php?aid=1911

  • Alienigena

    A career in feminism? That sounds ominous. Feminism is a political movement not a career option. And unless you are a straight male (claiming to be a feminist) college professor or online blogger it is not likely to be a very lucrative career. Most feminists (not household names but known amongst feminists who are functionally literate and reasonably well read) of the second wave that is so reviled by contemporary liberal feminists did not make any money from their activism. It is likely that none of the women writing for this blog can make a living from writing or speaking about feminism, as far as I know. Many, I would assume have (or had) ‘day jobs’.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yes, I agree. Jargon (pseudo complex vocabulary) seems to have the effect of forcing people to play along, lest they admit they have no idea what the words mean. It plays into the emperor’s new clothes scenario. It is also elitist, because we should be able to explain ideas without using jargon imo.

  • Meghan Murphy

    ugh

  • Alienigena

    I think you are just a troll Ellen. Taking up the time and effort of sincere people and expelling a lot of hot air.

  • Topazthecat

    An overwhelmingly artificially socially,psychologically,culturally constructed ”identity”!

  • Topazthecat

    Hardly anybody even heard of transgender children just 10 years ago and now it’s exploded all over the damn place!

  • Topazthecat

    Animals don’t know and understand what being a female and male is,just like human babies don’t.

  • will

    Oh quit with ‘I’m just a 19 year old girl and you big meanies made me cry’.

    If your stated intentions – to learn about feminism and to engage in debate – are honest, then you need to grow up and learn about both feminism and about debate. You stated you are committed to both of those things and then have proceeded to shut your ears to feminist theory and to break every foundational rule of discourse. THEN, as if the former is not ridiculous enough, you complain about being made to cry, your tears being a result of people are taking you at face value and engaging you just as we engage one another.

    If you want to be treated like a baby, go to a daycare. If you want to participate in feminist discourse, put on your big girl pants and do so. And show some respect for actual feminists.

  • Topazthecat

    I recently found this brand new great,really important long article debunking myths that gender identity is innate and fixed! It’s by two male psychiatrists,Lawrence S.Mayor and Paul R.McHugh. One of their many references is The American Psychological Associations pamphlet on Transgenderism and gender and it says while sex is biological,gender is socially constructed and they say they are really concerned that little children are being transgendered.

    http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/part-three-gender-identity-sexuality-and-gender

  • Topazthecat

    “Feminine” and “masculine” are really *HUMAN* traits,thoughts,feelings and behaviors.

    And there is plenty of decades worth of great psychological research studies by many different psychologists as you know, that shows that the sexes are much more alike than different in most traits,abilities and behaviors with a very large overlap between them,and that most of the differences between them are really small average differences,many of which have shrunk even smaller,and they find much greater individual *people* differences! Biologically the sexes are more alike than different too! As comedian Elaine Boosler said in the 1980’s,I’m only a person trapped in a woman’s body.

    Feminists(such as Robin Morgan,Gloria Steinem( she used to,and she was right about what she originally said!), Sheila Jeffreys etc) who have rightfully pointed this fact out,are not afraid of transsexuals or prejudiced against them,the issue is what I said it is. The only transsexual woman who actually debunks these common sexist gender myths,and gender stereotypes is Kate Bornstein author of Gender Outlaw:On Men,Women And The Rest Of Us,Gender Outlaws,My Gender Workbook etc. She was a heterosexual man who was married and had a daughter,then had a sex change and became a lesbian woman and then decided not to identify as a man or a woman.

    I heard Kate interviewed in 1998 on a local NPR show and she totally debunks gender myths,and rejects the “feminine” and “masculine” categories as the mostly socially constructed categories that they really are.She even said,what does it mean to feel or think like a woman(or man) she said what does that really mean.

    And as cultural anthropologist Roger Lancaster wrote in his introduction, in his very good 2003 book,The Trouble With Nature sex In Science when he’s talking about how scientists constantly search for a ”gay brain”,a ”gay gene” or ”gay intergovernmental” patterns. Roger came out as a gay man in college.

    He then says (One can hardly understate the naive literalism of present-day science on these matters: Scientists still look for the supposed anatomical attributes of the opposite sex embedded somewhere in the inverts brain or nervous system.) He then says and this notion now enjoys a second,third,and even fourth life in political discourses.He then says it is by appeal to such conceits that Aaron Hans,a Washington,D.C.- based transgender activist,reflects on his uncomfortable life as a girl:”I didn’t *think* I was a boy,I *knew* I was a boy.” He says,Hans elaborates: ”You look at pictures of me- I actually have great pictures of me in drag-and I literally look like a little boy in a dress.

    Roger then says,Far,far be it from me to cast doubt on anyone’s sense of discomfort with the ascribed gender roles.Nor would I question anyone’s sense that sexual identity is a deeply seated aspect of who they are .But testimonies of this sort and appeals to the self-evidence of perception beg the obvious question:Just what is a little boy or girl * supposed* to look like? The photograph that accompanies Han’s interview shows a somewhat robust girl.Is this to say that (real) girls are necessarily delicate and (real) boys athletic? He then says (If so,virtually all of my nieces are ”really” boys,since not a one of them is delicate or un presupposing)

    Roger then says,There is indeed something compelling about such intensely felt and oft- involved experiences-”I knew I was gay all along”; ”I felt like a girl” – but that compulsion belongs to the realm of outer culture,not nature.That is, if ”inappropriate” acts,feelings,body types,or desires seem to throw us into the bodies or minds other genders,it is because acts,feelings,and so on are associated with gender by dint of the same all-enveloping cultural logic that gives us pink blankets ( or caps,or crib cards,I.D. bracelets) for girls and blue for boys in maternity ward cribs.He then says,when we diverge one way or another from those totalizing associations,we feel-we really feel;in the depths of our being-”different”.Therein lies the basis for an existential opposition to the established order of gendered associations.

    Roger then says But therein also lies the perpetual trap: Every essentialist claim about the ”nature” of same sex desire in turn refers to and reinforces suppositions about the ”nature” of ”real” men and women (from whom the invert differs), about the ”naturalness” of their mutual attraction(demonstrated nowhere so much as in the inverts inversion),about the scope of their acts,feelings,body types,and so on( again, marked off by the deviation of the deviant). Aping the worst elements of gender/sexual conservatism,every such proposition takes culturally constituted meanings -the correlative associations of masculinity and femininity,active and passive,blue and pink- as ”natural facts”.

    Roger then says,In a twist as ironic as the winding of a double helix that goes first this way,then that,the search for gay identify gradually finds it’s closure in the normalcy of the norm as a natural law.In the end,I am not convinced of the basic suppositions here. I doubt that most men are unfamiliar with the sentiment given poetic form by Pablo Neruda:”It happens that I became tired of being a man. ”Even psychiatrists who treat ”gender dysphoria”- a slick term for rebellion against conventional gender roles -admit that at least 50% of children at some point exhibit signs of mixed or crossed gender identify or express a desire to be the ”opposite” sex. Roger has a note number to the reference in his notes section to a March 22,1994 New York Times article by Daniel Goleman called,The ‘Wrong’ Sex:A New Definition of Childhood Pain.

    Roger also says that the way the media reported the David Reimer case was very gender stereotyped and and biological deterministc.He also said that they raised him as a girl too late.

  • Topazthecat

    There also have been heterosexual boys,men, girls and women who aren’t transgendered who have or almost committed suicide because of the extreme conditioning into ”feminine” and ”masculine” that makes both sexes only half instead of whole full people.

  • Morag999

    “If it is alright for you to take hormones to correct what you were born with, why is it wrong for other people to do the same thing.”

    Now, there’s fine example of stupidly insensitive assholery.

  • Topazthecat

    There is no real ”science” supporting transgender.

  • Alienigena

    No heterosexuality is not needed to ‘propagate’ the species. Since so many misogynist trans activists or MRAs claim that biology is all in our heads and not a physical reality (i.e. sexual dimorphism really not a thing in the real world). Lesbian couples can use conventional IVF (I have acquaintances who did just that). Scientists have used two eggs (no sperm) and two sperm (no egg) to create embryos. I think a proportion of women who want children would prefer not to have to deal with men as the other parent (i.e. potential bio parents claiming rights to children). I know that I wouldn’t want a male parent watching porn alongside his five year daughter, which is something my brother-in-law did with my niece. I wouldn’t want someone like that to have influence over any children that I had (if I wanted them).

  • Tired feminist

    corvid already explained why. Read her comment again.

  • radwonka

    lmao yes, I forgot that they cant explain how babies are made! Ive seen articles such as “a trans man and a nonbinary have a baby! its a miracle!” lmao

    “I think the only reason US conservatives have not supported trans-ideology is just because liberals love it so much.”

    Very good point! Some conservatives, still agree with trans ideology because it supports the female/male brain ideology, but you are right, they dont support it much, because they know that it is more a leftist product (postmodernism) than a right wing product. And also because even though some of them agree with this ideology, strangely youll never see a conservative dude marrying a transwoman in a church, which shows that they know that there is no female brain (and that the idea of female brain is just an excuse to dominate women).

    • Wren

      But white conservative men are the headlining “transwomen”? How are we supposed to figure all this nonsense out and WHY DO WE HAVE TO?? I just want it to be over. God this all just makes me want to scream.

      • FierceMild

        Me too, so I do.

  • radwonka

    IKR? Leftists have become more libertarians than socialists, which is why they sound like your average right wing dude who supports the free market, plays misogynistic games, watches hentai and hates the state. I guess that leftists are like that because deep down they truly dont want to change their habits,…Modern Leftists have much more in common with the alt right than radical leftists, that alone says it all about them. Its not their first time that they behave like spoiled brats who dont want to change: leftists (and the libertarian right wing) in the 60s were pro “sexual revolution” because it banalized porn and prostitution, not because they were pro radical feminism.

    There are many interesting leftist ideologies, but leftists dudes are very superficial. I dont know if its because dudes are naturally superficial or if many leftist ideologies are just unstable and thus conveniently support the statu quo

  • Tired feminist

    Isn’t it lovely how they call the victim “trans woman” but the perpetrator “cis PERSON”?

    Ha.

  • radwonka

    “you then get to inform them that *they’d* be called a transphobe for
    thinking that transwomen are only women because they’re conforming to
    the social construct of femininity.”

    lol so true!
    One hand they say that biological sex has nothing to do with gender (implying that biological sex and gender coexist), on the other hand they say that only gender defines the body (implying that biological sex is irrelevant). lmao.

    Even their argument, “gender is in the heart/brain not between the legs you pervert” is incoherent, because they are the same people who will proudly say that a penis can be “female” or “nonbinary”. Also its misleading: they are implying that gender=biological sex, but if biological sex is in the brain/heart, then what is between the legs??? and what is that biological non binary spectrumal sex in the brain or the heart? what does it have to do with basic science??

    Also I love it when they call us pervert when we talk about biological sex, because they are all pro porn/prostitution; lmao

    They are implying that gender creates biological sex. Sadly, there are only two kind of human beings, which means that gender, the great entity gender that cant be defined, is transphobic because that spectrum is so binary :”(

  • corvid

    There’s a reason I put “correct” in quotes, but that just went riiiiight over your head apparently

  • Alienigena

    I have read some anthropology (MA in Social/Cultural Anthropology with a lot of undergrad coursework in physical anthropology) and frankly you are full of BS. Comparing modern transgenderism and trans activism to phenomena that are specific to particular cultures is just misleading and dishonest. From what I have seen random Internet commenters cite one article on transgenderism in a hunter / gatherer group over and over again when claiming trangenderism as a widespread phenomenon. Science including social science is about more than one study it is about developing a body of evidence and proving that something happens again and again, from one culture to another (and not mainly in one biological sex, e.g. male).

    Those citing a one-off study (or transgenderism in a particular social group) don’t seem to ever notice which biological sex is allowed to be gender non-conforming, males generally. Gender non-conformity amongst females is not really accepted in traditional (agricultural) cultures as far as I can see. Biological females menstruate, which meant they could be restricted (through menstrual taboos) to their role as women and literally confined to huts in the forest during their periods. Funny how that works. Even in cases where the value of women is acknowledged (as in payment of a bride-price to compensate family for loss of a daughter’s productive (agricultural and other labour) and reproductive labour) biological females still don’t have the elevated status males do.

    https://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/anthropology/tutor/marriage/bride_wealth.html

    Biological males and females have never been on equal footing in societies with horticulture or agriculture re: transgressive (not of the norm) behaviours. Look at the Yanomami who engaged in kidnap of females (for purposes of
    marriage) from other groups (not a very egalitarian practice). While the Yanomami hunted they also practiced
    slash and burn agriculture.

    Anthropological literature includes the study of pastoral and modern societies as well as hunter-gatherers so relying on information on hunter-gatherers alone (claiming they represent a more ‘authentic’ form of social organization) is not appropriate. Modern culture is a product of the recent past more than the distant past.

    The focus in the anthro literature seems to be on male transgenderism. So if transgenderism is so universal, why isn’t it found equally amongst males and females in human history. The lack of evidence could be attributed in part to the fact that male anthropologists dominated the profession early on and were not interested in women or women’s rituals, practices or lives. Or men may simply not have had access to women (given they were males). But until that evidence is gathered I don’t buy that transgenderism is about both biological males and females, it is about males and their right to co-opt the identities and realities of others without being challenged.

    Example demonstrating specificity of phenomena (e.g. correlation (or lack of) between violence and aggression and number of offspring male has) studied in anthropology and how one answer or explanation does not fit all societies.

    http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090511/full/news.2009.463.html

  • Wren

    But even then, we usually just get “but that’s YOUR experience.” CAN’T EVER WIN CAN WE???

  • Wren

    Ok, so you’re an arrogant little girl who’s been put in her place and now you’re crying about it and going back to your “friends” to reinforce the ignorant crap you’ve been making us read and respond to. It’s tough to be wrong, and Meghan and the other women here are people with a lot more experience than you. People you should admire, and if our scathing retorts hurt it’s cause they should. But people here wouldn’t even bother responding if we didn’t have a little faith that you could see the light, so fucking do it.

    Lick your wounds, keep reading, make new friends. Get a clue and then get back to us.

  • Melanie

    You just defended prostitution by saying that not all women in it have sex with their clients. That is an implicit admission that you know there’s something very different from working in a mine to having sex with strangers. Otherwise you wouldn’t have said that. As for prostitution as a ‘career path’, you have got to be kidding me.

  • Meghan Murphy

    No one here is or would criticize women who “have sex with strangers” for money…

  • Resse

    Sorry I meant to write that some think gay and trans could be considered on the spectrum of intersex

  • Resse

    Biological males are stronger then biological females but it’s not “natural” they should dominate us (though they do) politically or socially the same way we wouldn’t make a “natural” argument for the acceptance of murder because it is a social ill that makes drains societies. We’re half the population so the difficulty comes in fighting for ourselves when the other half is content in the society constructed that benefits them socially, politically and sexually in oppressing the female.

    You see, to me of is self evident that there are differences between biological women and transwomen, life experience not to be overlooked and yet we other here on the feminist side do not believe inherent differences between the sexes besides biological anatomy and perhaps a few other superficial genetic structures any thing more is getting into biological basis for gender and we don’t believe in gender remember. Changing your physical appearance so your thus viewed socially as the other sex and even or specially your genitalia has got to count for something right.

    Listen I’m not saying transwomen are exactly the same in terms of biological reality or social reality and I don’t think the majority of transwomen argue otherwise. what they want is to live their life’s as they see fit without discrimination. There is nothing inherently wrong or evil about long hair and make up, it is the expectations & gendered systems around it that are the problem. Transwomen are the last people on earth to believe “only women do x,y,z” this is different from the politically expedient “born this way” campaign which can use reductive language but there is a difference between transpeople and trans political movement. I think riding ourselves of the gender binary can be the first step towards riding ourselves of geneder,

    • Cassandra

      I agree with most everything you said but these two things:
      1.
      “what they want is to live their life’s as they see fit without discrimination.”
      We agree except when it comes to female private spaces. What trans activism does is say that female people can’t separate themselves from people with penises in bathrooms, lockers rooms, sports teams, scholarships. This is all hugely problematic for female people. Their definition of “discrimination” amounts to allowing us no boundaries. How is this any different from what male people have been doing to female people for thousands of years? People with penises do not belong in female spaces or on female sports teams. After they’ve actually gone through with surgery, well, *maybe* that’s another matter, but their physical strength (which you just talked about) gives them an advantage in sports and it is patently fucked-up and unfair.
      2.
      I think riding ourselves of the gender binary can be the first step towards riding ourselves of geneder,
      I think you meant “ridding.” Gender is not a binary. It is a hierarchy.

      • Resse

        And I disagree that transpeople are the ones propping up the hierarchy, they are simply seeking social acceptance and I feel what ever the flaws of their method “born this way/female brain in male body” etc at the very least they are dismantling the heteronormative gender binary and that has got to count towards something positive right? I think it’s a goal score on the road to feminist reshaping of society.

        And I want to make clear my motive in engaging in this debate was precisely so we could focus the attention on the disagreement of trans activism and not vilify those different then us. I don’t agree with everything some transactivists do, threats, bullying, shutting down debate, invading spaces without invitation, submerging women’s studies into gender studies, crazy silly stuff like saying focus on reproductive rights is “transphobic” saying that women have vaginas is “transphobic” saying “people have vaginas” instead etc etc etc

    • corvid

      “…we other here on the feminist side do not believe inherent differences between the sexes besides biological anatomy and perhaps a few other superficial genetic structures”

      Um, those are pretty huge areas, not “superficial” at all. A penis isn’t just an inconvenient blemish or something.

      “There is nothing inherently wrong or evil about long hair and make up, it is the expectations & gendered systems around it that are the problem.”
      Long hair, sure, but make up is waaaay more fraught and can’t easily be divested from its role as a form of male social control over women. Applying makeup, affording makeup, these things drain real resources and time from oppressed people.

  • Tired feminist

    True friends tell the truth…

  • Resse

    1. I misspelled my first comment, denying somebody their chosen pronoun is fundamentally disrespectful and in the case of transpeople discriminatory. I am not trans so it is easier for me to argue your starting premise that transwomen are no different then men, I respect your beliefs but am interested changing them which is necessary for debate, a lot easier for me to manage then I imagine for many transwomen who would not feel like offended at the starting premise. People out there would try to argue black people like myself have lower IQs then all other races (there is no race but thats a detour) and I wouldn’t be able too because I’d get to angry, so I can sympathize.

    2. It’s funny your comeback is a rebuttal to universal human rights. Interesting question though I don’t the the word space or time to try to convert you.

    3. I believe my point was, whatever you feel about the regressive, reductive gender dichotomy of trans activism (I personally trans and genderqueers are arguing to end the gender binary which is a good starting point in culture for gender egalitarianism and abolishment ) How many people are going to read radical feminist theory much less agree with it? “Gender is fluid” is much easier for the layperson to get behind. Having said that, I don’t think radfeminists need to go away or stop doing the work their doing I think we can work in tandem. Forget our enemies, how ridiculous is it to alienate our most natural allies?? a inclusive as possible strategy is the way to go. Separate spheres of influence working together.

    “Misogyny exists because females exist, not because males want to oppress us.” reread again, I said no such thing, ironically though I have seen that very sentiment expressed numerous times on the comments board.

    4. I said gender identity is real because present culture exists and I believe your eyes are the material evidence that culture exists.

    5. According to us feminists, biology and then socialization is the prime distinguisher between the sexes but if according to you, we must follow biological determinism and allow for no transgressions between the sexes then a equivalence could be made between homosexuality and biology. Reproduction is a essential biological imperative but we account for the fact some people “born this way or free will” will fall outside the norm. Why can’t we allow the same for others?

    6. I don’t know how valid it is but there is a theory that trans and homosexual could be on the spectrum of intersexuality.

    7. So why can’t transpeople fit into the intersex category? I realize they follow the gender binary but only because that is the oppressive gender system they have to contend with for acceptance, not that everybody wants it that way. “Prove biological sex has nothing to do with genitals” I never said that, I said you can change your genitalia.

    8. “Wouldnt confuse the genitals of males or females with socialized roles” Who says that they do? this is a false the assumption coming from the hyper focus on feminine transwomen, which they receive without asking for it because it blows people somebody would trade in their male privilege for the lesser status of female. It is super not ideal I agree but transwomen are no more asking for this perception then they are asking for attacks or discrimination.

    • corvid

      So recognizing an individual’s biological sex is “discriminatory”, but denying the existence of female humans *as distinct from males* is somehow not discriminatory?

      “Gender is fluid” bypasses the fact that gender is a socially constructed hierarchy. It doesn’t exist in real terms. Most aspects of femininity are physically torturous *for a reason* and it’s because some were developed to keep us “in our place”, and others are maladaptive responses to being female in patriarchy. Nurturing and emotional vulnerability should be universal human traits.

      The trans movement have proven they are not our allies. They try to smear and shut down radical feminists working on behalf of sexually enslaved women and girls. That is the complete opposite of allyship.

      If gender is a false construct and oppressive hierarchy, and it is, then having “gender identity” means that we are *willing* to situate ourselves as either oppressor or oppressed. It means that we reinforce the dynamic whether or not we try to “transgress” to the other side. The whole thing needs to be abolished.

      Of course there are “transgressions between the sexes” – intersex people. Sex is not gender.

      You can cosmetically “change your genitalia” to make it a simulation of what the opposite sex looks like. That does not literally change your sex. Only the processes of nature from conception to maturation can determine sex.

      Nobody here is attacking trans women. Men are doing that. Stop deflecting blame from violent men.

    • Leo

      3. No, I’ve found laypeople understand ‘gender is outdated sexist bullshit’ just fine, and that ‘gender is fluid’ takes us backwards. It’s very easy to explain the former, it’s something most already understand, and quickly will as soon as they think about it – for example, to ask them to think about the ways in which they do and don’t conform to gender quickly allows most to understand that humans each have their own personality and interests, and that gender is restrictive. Thankfully I’m British and we’re much saner about this than the US.
      5. No, reproduction isn’t a biological imperative. That’s the polite version of my response.
      7. Because that’s appropriating it from intersex people, which they’ve been repeatedly asked by intersex activists not to do. It’s very offensive for people campaigning for genital surgery and for healthy bodies not to be seen as fine to take this terminology away from intersex activists, who have campaigned against surgery and argued their bodies are fine as they are.

  • corvid

    Agree. To add another dimension, in another thread I brought up a study showing that 58% of a sample group of MTF trans “men” were subsequently found to have PCOS. I would be willing to bet that hormone disorders are going undiagnosed and people are being drawn under the “trans” umbrella because it is more visible. It can be really alienating and confusing to feel that there’s something different about you, that something is off. Gender expectations are so rigid, and self-esteem is extremely tenuous in youth. One of the problems is really that transgender is a faith-based system that, like all faith-based systems, steps into the gap between our experience and scientific explanation for it.

  • corvid

    Hmm yeah. How in the heck is an adult man with fully-functioning male physiology, who is attracted to men, “on the spectrum of intersex?”

  • corvid

    Yes. There risks and side effects to FTM testosterone treatment. And there are risks and side effects with hormonal birth control. Both are really problematic, and both are interventions into otherwise healthy bodies due to patriarchal forces.

    • Kris

      some of us, myself included, can’t live without hormonal birth control. I use it to stop my periods altogether, with my female doctors recommendation, because the horrible pain I was getting every 3 weeks (for a full 7 days) and the huge flow that required changing out both pads and tampons every few hours was seriously ruining my life. No diet and exercise program was going to help it.

      • FierceMild

        I hear that.

      • corvid

        Sorry to hear that. Obviously this is something you need, all the best in managing your health.
        I personally suffered side effects from taking birth control pills which precludes taking them again.
        My point is that they are problematic, as a larger cultural phenomenon, because men consider it a-ok to mess with women’s bodies and hormones for their sexual convenience. Also, in my case, they aren’t actually necessary but were automatically prescribed.

  • Kris

    If there is no universal “all women”, then there is no need for the category of “woman” at all. Personal differences aside, to use one word to describe a large group of people implies they all share at least ONE thing in common,

    I want to know what you believe all women share if it’s not physiological. It can’t just be that they all use the word “woman” (whatever that means!?) to describe themselves. And it can’t just be that they all face oppression from males. There would still need to be a thing they share in common that was the source of why males oppress them all in the first place.

  • Alienigena

    I was really just talking about the science. Sort of a thought experiment (well, more than that, the science is there for other mammalian species (e.g. mice), note I said embryo, not fetus or human fetus). But thanks for the psychotic break. Better than a Kit Kat?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/09/13/motherless-babies-possible-as-scientists-create-live-offspring-w/ (other cells + sperm)

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/04/0421_040421_whoneedsmales.html (two eggs, no sperm)

    Are you saying that at least one member of a lesbian couple should have to have penetrative sex with a male to have children? Because all I meant by the statement was that the act of heterosexual sex was not required (by a lesbian couple or individual). Heard of the turkey baster? An informal form of IVF for women not wanting to be partnered with a male but wanting to procreate in the 1970s.

    I think having the option of not having a male directly involved in procreation is great. For some of us their company is like a form of low level radiation … eventually it is going to be deadly (spiritually or physically).

    Other life forms that can reproduce sexually can also reproduce asexually (vegetative reproduction for plants). Amongst animals … starfish, Platyhelminthes (flat worms), etc. Sex is needed for mammalian reproduction, but now stand-ins are available (e.g. technology).

    Going back to the thought experiment. Think Ursula Kay LeGuin’s “The Left Hand of Darkness”. A species engineered to have both male and female reproductive abilities. That novel may be an angry trans activists wet dream for all I know (the ambisexuals are referred to as he not she). I am not saying that such manipulations are morally right, and I am not saying they will or should happen. For some of us, it would be nice to have options (if only in a thought experiment), rather than the current technology (which as you point out is devastating for women (physically and emotionally)).

    “A large majority of the children born are born to women who had sex with men,” No argument there. And no, I don’t believe that males can become female. But frankly I don’t care about what heterosexual women want. Not my life’s mission to do so. I care about issues impacting women (abortion, access to safe and effective birth control, freedom from male violence). But do I care about what women want (e.g. children)? No. Do I care about what men want? No.

    I have never understood why people think you need to act on things like feelings or desires. Do you act on your anger or rage every time you feel it? If you do I am surprised you don’t end up in jail or sans job or friends. If you find certain people emotionally repulsive and terroristic would you have sex with them just to gratify a desire or feeling? Maybe that approach works for others, it doesn’t work for me.

    “most people still want their children to have both a mother and a father”

    I agree two parents are better for practical reasons, like one parent dying (in the recent past men were known for fairly routinely abandoning children and wives / girlfriends), an additional income, or differential parenting skills (I am talking actual skills not imposition of stereotypes, like women are more nurturing).

    I have met lesbian couples who were far better parents (less neurotic and narcissistic) than my heterosexual parents ever were. As a child and adolescent dependent on my parents I often wished my abusive (emotional and physical) father would go away and not come back. The most relaxed (and free from familial abuse, because to be frank, my family as a whole is toxic as a result of my father’s behaviour) that I ever was growing up was when I spent half a school year with an adult second cousin and his wife rather than my family and my father in particular.

    My judgements of men are not just based on family, they are based on the behaviour of men I have encountered as a regular person (boyfriends, husbands, fathers of friends), as a student, as a volunteer, as an employee and as strangers in public places.

  • Kris

    Please, can you just coherently define what you mean by “gender”. Please, oh please, I”M BEGGING YOU.

    Please understand that we equate gender with oppression, stereotypes, and the hierarchy of biological males above biological females (regardless of how one “identifies” inside.)
    We define gender as a set of socialized expectations, behaviors, roles, personality traits, etc that coincide with the sex you were born as. And all these examples are defined and designated in order to keep males above and in control of females. (i.e.: “the patriarchy”). Gender is what is used by the patriarchy to keep that system intact. Getting rid of gender means allowing people to behave, desire, and control their own lives according to however they please regardless of what type of body they have.

    You seem to talk about gender as if it’s a natural good thing, which is confusing as hell for us. At this point, I really think you just mean personality and fashion sense without being direct about it. Which is fine, but why divvy up those things according to the categories of “masculine” and “feminine” which were defined by the patriarchy?? It still limits humans and perpetuates an “either/or” mentality when it comes to complex human behavior.

    Why can’t a pink dress just be a pink dress? Why must it still be “feminine”, whether a man is wearing it or not? Why must assertiveness be a “masculine” trait? Why can’t it just be a behavioral trait and end it at that? And why even have the concept of “identity”? Isn’t that still limiting humans to stay within their own set of boundaries? People are ever-changing, they aren’t fixed “identities”. And if you claim your “identity’ to be ever changing, than what the hell is the point to it exactly?

    If there’s more to “gender” to you than how I’m viewing it, then again, PLEASE explain it!!! Don’t just say it’s “complex and personal” and call it day. No point in entering the conversation if you aren’t willing to further explain yourself.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Ew, they have vaginas and speak their minds! GROSS.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “I posed the question if it is true that gender is a social contrast and a oppressive one at that, then what is so wrong with transgressing those boundaries. If there was no differentiation between the sexes, trans people could not change their appearance and genitalia. Which is in my mind is the sole of what they are doing not propping up the patriarchy.”

    There is nothing wrong with transgressing those boundaries. The problem is to say that in putting on traditionally ‘feminine’ clothing makes one a woman. It no longer becomes transgressive, in a radical sense, if we say that if a male steps out of masculinity he becomes female — that’s just reinforcing the same old garbage feminists have been fighting forever.

    “femininity and masculinity are in the eye of the beholder, they are cultural artifacts as gender is a social construct.”

    But the thing is that they aren’t. If ‘femininity’ and ‘masculinity’ were neutral or not connected to a sex-class hierarchy, then no, perhaps things like heels and makeup wouldn’t be signifiers of oppression, but that is not the case. Women in our society do not wear makeup and heels because of some neutral ‘choice,’ they wear them because they have been socialized to see themselves as decorative and existing to be looked at.

  • FierceMild

    Hmmmmmm, I think there are a lot of women here who admire Germain Greer and Lena Dunham. I suppose you’d rather emulate Christina Hoff Sommers?

  • Cassandra

    Why is this VERY SIMPLE point so hard for people to understand?

  • Cassandra

    Both Ms. Greer and Ms. Dunham are pretty interesting and accomplished women. I wonder what it is about them that makes you say “ew.” Why “ew” ?

  • Cassandra

    ‘Listen to sex workers’, as long as they’re the ones who fit their simplistic, liberal narrative. ‘Stand with transgender people and women of color’, yet they support a practice that exploits and harms them precisely because of their marginalization. ‘Privileged, white feminist’ yet they’re usually white and privileged themselves.

    ^^^This pretty much sums up the complete fraud/hypocrisy that is third wave feminism.

  • Cassandra

    “Also, you are confused. Trans ideology explains that bodies do NOT matter, so why instrumentalizing intersex if bodies dont matter anyway? Why using them when their bodies is like that because of nature and not because of culture? Why using them when they arent trans themselves?”

    ^^^Exactly right. It’s like listening to The Riddler.

    I also laughed at “intersex circuity.” They just make shit up.

  • corvid

    That’s really interesting Lisa, thanks.

  • corvid

    “Yes one should remember femininity as a social apparatus but also remember not to immediately take “traditionally associated with femaleness” to mean bad and unworthy as that is it’s own sort of sexism.”

    Well, we wouldn’t want to be prejudiced toward shackles, would we? Poor shackles, always being used to imprison and restrain…. it’s not their fault. Won’t somebody think of the shackles and their feelings!

  • Okay, thanks; will check it out!

  • Oh, come on: I was just kidding. I apologize if it didn’t come across that way. I’ve been reading everyone’s links, I just don’t agree. But I’m done with this extreme feminism: I’ve read other articles on the site and…..wow.

    • Tired feminist

      “Wow” what? Can you elaborate?

  • FierceMild

    1) Cutting and reshaping your genitals via surgery doesn’t change them into functional opposite sex genitals. That’s like saying a stage set of a ship is actually seaworthy.

    2) Saying that there is an idea of inalienable human rights doesn’t prove a super-corporeal element of human existance. Especially since most rights relate to the body and who may use it.

    3) Gender isn’t a binary, it’s a hierarchy. For more on this, I suggest you explore Feminist Current.

    4) The existence of the concept of gender identity is neither well-defined, nor proof of its material existence. For a make-like, the concept of god doesn’t prove the divinity of Jesus.

    5) Transfolk and homosexuals are only related in that trans ideology is a new form of gay conversion therapy in a heavy base of misogyny.

    6) Homosexuals are people – of either sex – attracted to members of the same sex. Trans people are members of one sex who insist they are members of the other sex. Homosexuals aren’t remotely trans.

    7) What are you trying to separate biologicla sex determinism from? Because it really isn’t self-evident.

    8) Again, cutting and reshaping your genitals via surgery doesn’t change them into functional opposite sex genitals. That’s like saying a stage set of a ship is actually seaworthy.

    9) You are intellectually dishonest and reactionary. You are also a misogynist.

    • Kristy Bliss

      A person can be transgender and homosexual or transgender and heterosexual. A trans person does not always give a damn about being a “member” of anything, often just being themselves.

  • Melanie

    Having sex with multiple strangers a day is not the same as mining (or casual sex). You said so yourself even if you don’t want to acknowledge that. Money doesn’t take away the feeling of violation, the injury, disease, mental health problems and trauma. The reasons women have sex for money are not simply because they choose to do it. Poor women, homeless women, women who suffer social and economic disadvantage or who have experienced prior physical and sexual abuse, women of colour, transgender people don’t just choose it more than the average privileged, middle class white woman or man because they just happen to like it.

  • Syndafloden

    Women aren’t missing from the cover, though?

    I totally get the point, and it’s an issue that it doesn’t feature cisgendered women, but I find it very un-feminist to declare transgender women to not be “real” women.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Understanding how biology works is ‘un-feminist’? How so?

    • Heather Martin

      I think if the cover hadn’t featured someone with the “male” designation, you would be right. But it featured a spectrum of those who don’t conform to the “male/female” separation, and it featured a cis gendered male. But no cisgendered females.

      This article brings up a point that I’ve tried to ask others and have yet to get an answer for. I believe that people should be accepted however they want to be (as long as they aren’t hurting others), full stop. So I don’t care how one wants to describe themselves, I’ll use whichever pronoun they ask me to.

      That said, I have to wonder how much of this goes back to the idea that boys can’t like frilly things and girls can’t like “rough and tumble” things….I grew up with very hippy parents, they would never say, “Good girl” to me, they always said “Good heather”, because they didn’t want me to grow up thinking good girls behaved differently than good boys. They were very big on the “like what you want to like!”, so I grew up liking snakes and liking high heels, and both of those were because I was Heather and had nothing to do with the fact that I’m female. Being a woman has nothing to do with why I like pink, and I don’t like working on my car DESPITE being a woman….it all just has to do with me.

      And I wonder if the world was more like that, would we still have people who didn’t feel right in their genders? I try to empathize, but try as I might, I can’t understand the concept of not feeling right in your gender because I’ve never felt like my gender had anything to do with who I am…..any more than my hair color or eye color. It’s biological. It doesn’t determine my likes and dislikes.

      So I have to wonder…..are we reinforcing the gender stereotypes when we encourage people by saying, “Yeah, those are girl things! You must be a girl! It’s ok to ‘feel like a girl'”? Instead shouldn’t we just say, “Yeah! You’d look awesome in that dress! I bet it’s so much fun to spin around in!”?

    • Cassandra

      A woman is an adult human female, therefore transgender women are not “real” women. It’s very “un-feminist” to erase females. So gross.

  • Syndafloden

    Hormones alone does not a gender make, though.

    • corvid

      I don’t have a gender. I am biologically female and have had to adapt to that, like all females everywhere. None of us signed some cosmic waiver asking whether we’d like to be female.

    • Heather Martin

      I think that was her point? She’s drawing a line between sex and gender, sex is a biological fact (in the majority of the population, I’m aware that there are XY ‘females’, and xxxy, and xxx and so on, I’m a biologist with a focus in genetics, so I am aware of these things, but they are rare and deserve their own discussion). Anyways, sex is a biological fact much like height, eye color, skin color, and so on. It does not, and should never, be seen, as something that determines personality, likes, dislikes, etc. Could you imagine doing that with other physical triats?

      “I have green eyes, that means I’m fun. But I don’t want to be fun, I want to be pensive. So I’m going to wear contacts so I have blue eyes, then people will treat me like I’m pensive instead of fun”. The fact that we essentially do this with the sexes is ridiculous.

      What we need to be fighting is the deep-seated gender stereotypes.

    • Cassandra

      Of course hormones don’t make gender. Gender is the social construct of masculinity and femininity. Hormones have nothing whatsoever to do with “gender.”

      Hormones have everything to do with biology, which is why some trans people take them/use them — so they can look like the opposite SEX — see how that works? I mean if that’s not “biological essentialism” I don’t know what is.

      • Kristy Bliss

        Hormones influence everything in our lives including feelings. Don’t oversimplify.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Older women who dare to exist in the public sphere are the worst of all, aren’t they?!

  • Tired feminist

    It’s not only here. I’m not very talkative irl, but even I have seen libfems stop speaking with me altogether after I made very basic objections to trans ideology. I get the impression they know I’m right, but GOD FORBID ME LISTENS TO THIS WOMAN AND BECOME A TERF LIKE HER. It’s so pathetic and depressing.

  • Tired feminist

    They might have learned this from the New Age Dudes… only that these are more into “quantum physics”.

  • Virginia Howard

    !laughter! Thanks, Morag999 XD

  • Meghan Murphy

    What an incredibly convincing and informed argument, you’ve made here, Pusprince!

  • JingFei

    Why not use your brain and your words to articulate the issues you have?

  • Tired feminist

    You’re a parody account, right?

  • corvid

    How so? What did you transition from, and to what?

  • radwonka

    “exactly like you”

    What exactly?

  • Meghan Murphy
  • Meghan Murphy

    All comments are moderated, smarty-pants. None go up instantly. Anyhoo, we were just playin with ya. You’re banned now. Happy holidays!

  • Liza

    You mean you are here to comand as our overlord that we act like women who you also call disgusting. Does our vagina disgust you sir? Or does our uterus disgust you?

    You are here as a man to tell women that we should kow tow your male feelings because that is what men demand.

    You sir are the apex of male demands and entitlement. We can know you are a man and say it and we can teach our daughters (that we pushed out of our vagina) to do the same. That’s your intersection dude.

  • corvid

    Pusprince, misogynistic lashing-out will not help you with your self-esteem issues, and it sure as hell won’t help us end patriarchy.

  • JingFei

    That’s ridiculous. I know 2 Trans men I care about very much. I worry about their medical care and treatment.

    Just because I’m Chinese doesn’t mean I think “everyone hates Chinese people” because they criticize some of the actions done by China, or don’t agree with some cultural practices . And as a lesbian I welcome discussion and criticism when it comes to LGBT politics. I don’t think “no one cares about gay people!” because they analyze certain motives, or don’t like absolutely everything LGBT platforms do.
    No group of people live in a vacuum where they are somehow exempt from others having opinions. Trans activism has huge issues with declaring all criticism as “hatred” and blasphemy so they can silence all dissenting points of view, to the detriment of others.
    And everyone has to wait for their comment to get through moderation because one person goes through them on her own time. She does need to eat, sleep, and live her life.

    • Cassandra

      “Trans activism has huge issues with declaring all criticism as “hatred” and blasphemy so they can silence all dissenting points of view, to the detriment of others.”

      THIS^^^^^^^

  • FierceMild

    Wait, it’s okay to call each other disgusting now? And judge who is a good witch and who is a bad witch?

    Excellent.

  • FierceMild

    Right. Because they’re surgical wounds, not sex organs.

  • NJ Dee

    As a man, I am also sick of the “wears pink = female” approach to gender categorisation. Long hair, the universal sign of femininity? Or, turn yourself in to a poorly conceived, poorly executed sexual caricature of a woman with silicone “breasts”, boom! That’s your female starter kit right there. Yep. The artificial is the best representation of all things womanly, it can’t possibly be innate right? I mean, it has to be something created by men for men in order to qualify.
    Many are confused, a lot of Brazilian women are taking male hormones (anabolic agents) in order to achieve an unattainable vision of femininity. There has to be an acceptance of the presence of a significant amount of confusion for a meaningful debate to take place.

    • Tired feminist

      I’m a Brazilian woman and I’ve never heard of Brazilian women taking male hormones to look more FEMININE…

    • radwonka

      So did you have anything to say besides using sarcasm?

  • NJ Dee

    Where do the Wodaabe men of Niger fit in to this? They wear make-up and dance in beauty pageants judged by women. If this kid Avery grew up in that environment, would he still want his bits cut off?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Can you define “woman?”

    • Em

      A female person ? An adult human being ?

      • Meghan Murphy

        Great. So you understand, then, that transwomen are male?

      • Cassandra

        What is a female?

        What is a male?

  • Anthocerotopsida

    Damn it. I would have loved to read Ellen’s response to this comment, too. No luck.

  • Meghan Murphy

    A male cannot simply become female by declaring himself as such. That is a crazy thing to say.

  • Meghan Murphy

    That’s funny because it seems the term “TERF” is only used to silence, harass, and attack women in explicitly misogynist, anti-feminist ways. Jewish people were systemically oppressed and abused during the holocaust (and continue to be discriminated against). Women are systemically oppressed and abused under patriarchy. Your bigoted slurs aimed at women are no different than any other. Nice try with that reversal tho.

  • Meghan Murphy

    How does a male-bodied person become a woman, exactly?

  • Meghan Murphy

    What does it mean to live your life as a woman? Also, is self-identification really enough to transform a person into a woman as so many claim? By those standards, I could declare myself to be anything I wanted and expect it to be respected. What if I said I was a child trapped in an adult’s body — would that make me a child? What if I said I “felt” black on the inside and lived as a black woman, as Rachel Dolezal did — would that make me black?

  • Melanie

    Why don’t you go and read some of the prostitution review websites, listen to what so many men actually say about women in prostitution, or look at the statistics regarding the violence that they commit against women in it – if you want to talk about disrespect, dehumanization, contempt and hate. While you’re attacking feminist women who are trying to end male violence and sexual exploitation, your simplistic, harmful liberal ideology is excusing and enabling these men. That is not feminism.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t know about you, but I’m convinced!

    • Morag999

      It was the all-caps ARE that did it for me. I had a vision of a transwoman surrounded by a clear, pure light. Or, was it that the light was emanating from HER? Not sure … it’s so hard to explain … but in any case, now I’m a believer.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Hey whitey *waves*

    • Meghan Murphy

      I mean, the irony of complaining that *I* ‘nothing new to the table’ when your sole ‘contributions’ to this discussion are to scream anti-feminist slurs, without coming up with a single argument… What *are* all these “brilliant” arguments? Surely if they exist, you can share them? https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e300dfa3119abeb3a0e9b880970aba1068e229e877465afb866cbbc0063d2f3c.png

      • Cassandra

        Holy shit. That is some grade A misogyny. You wonder how a female person can be so invested in something so harmful to her own sex?

        • Meghan Murphy

          Simultaneously sad and terrifying. Her utter hate towards other women is astounding.

          • Cassandra

            I’m sorry you have to deal so directly with this kind of vitriol for standing by female people. It’s all so obvious.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    “TERF” Translation: “Burn the witch!!!”

    Translation: “Let’s all try to exercise more love and solidarity by complying with male demands and participating in their sex fetishes”

  • Zuzanna Smith

    Reducing females to an identity or a feeling a male says he has is offensive, female phobic and contemputous of female human beings.

  • Melanie

    Isn’t identifying yourself as a woman the same as declaring yourself a woman? That’s all you have to do. Declare it. And yes, what does living your life as a woman mean? Nobody can seem to answer this simple question. Or they just don’t want to because it would reveal the blatant sexism underlying gender ideology.

  • Cassandra

    LOL!

  • Cassandra

    You must be a dude, right? Even if you aren’t, you sound like a real asshole.

  • Cassandra

    What does this mean, Ethan?

    Transgender females are females who “identify” as men? That’s what you’re saying, you know.

    You can’t be a male to trans woman and female at the same time. It’s biologically impossible.

  • Cassandra

    I’m so embarrassed for you.

  • Cassandra

    What is a woman?

    We’re all still waiting for an answer to this question. It really shouldn’t be so difficult.

  • Cassandra

    LOL “intersectional.” As if you have any idea what it means.

  • Tired feminist

    It’s cool because none of the 1100+ comments in this thread does a better job of discrediting you guys than this one. So, thanks!

  • Leo

    Ok. Living your life as any woman in particular, or just as a generic idea of a woman? If the latter, is that not sexist? Today I read the news, picked on some liberals on the internet for lols, played a videogame, swore because I lost a boss fight repeatedly and ended up ragequitting. How do I know if I’m living my life correctly as a woman or not? What would I need to do differently to live my life as a man? And -if you come up with a difference- why does it matter and should it matter?

    I *did* also have one of my migraines, which is why I did basically nothing today, but those are connected to my female hormones and monthly cycle…can this be this part of living life as a woman? If not, why not?

  • Zuzanna Smith

    What is “living your life as a woman”? Just asking so I know I’m doing it right.

  • Leo

    It is a slur:
    https://terfisaslur.com/
    And does not accurately describe our politics:
    https://rebeccarc.com/2016/11/01/the-word-terf/

    Which rights are we meant to be denying, exactly?

  • Cassandra

    You do understand that payment is a form of coercion, right? It’s almost as if you believe the definition of rape changes when women are prostituted, like it doesn’t count for them. The payment is given because the sex is not wanted. Sex that is not wanted is not sex, it’s rape.

    Truly, are you really this naive?

    And also, if it’s so fucking fabulous and such a great choice, why aren’t YOU considering it as a career? Why are you here on a feminist website wasting your time talking to us? It’s so great, right? It’s a great choice!! Choice! Choose! Choosey Choice Choice Choose! You’re likely to be traumatized and/or killed and/or beaten within an inch of your life and asked to do humiliating things and at 19 you’re already TOO OLD for “sex work” because men prefer to rape underage girls, but hey, you go girl — you go ahead, you choose it!!

    • FierceMild

      May I offer – ahem – an AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! WHY THE FUCK CAN’TBTHEY SEE IT! Of agreement?

  • Cassandra

    Maybe we’ll see you in a few years, Ellen, after you realize what a crock of shit you’ve been fed. Some of the women who regularly comment on this site came over from the dark side. We welcomed them and we’ll welcome you.

    In the meantime stay off Tumblr and Jezebel; they’re poisoning your brain cells.

  • Cassandra

    You know, I just re-read this comment and try as I might cannot make head nor tail of it. It’s truly a word salad of epic proportions. The flabbergasting part is that *you* thought it made sense.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “I’m sure Steinem’s thesis will be lost on nearly everyone who reads this.”
    Yes, I’m sure. Gloria could never say anything more explicit, though, she’d be offed, figuratively, no doubt.

    • Anthocerotopsida

      Yeah, it’s like she’s always on the edge of saying something really earth-shattering, but at the last second she decides that she wants her words to be published after all. It’s a shame.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Word.

  • FierceMild

    Waitwaitwait. So if I deny the Holocaust, I’m Refusing reality, but if I deny that biological males are female I’m refusing reality? I think you’ve got your logic inverted.

  • FierceMild

    Preach!

  • Rebecca Anne Foster

    I have to agree with you here on everything.

    Trans people are real people who have feelings, too, and trans women aren’t some ‘jerks trying to take over feminism’ as many people here believe. They’re just looking for acceptance and are trying to support other women as feminists themselves, yet many cis women are pushing them away. A dear friend of mine is a trans woman who now hates most other ignorant women because of how they’ve treated her and that’s just not right. I also know multiple men who cannot stand feminism because they’ve tried to support women, only to be shoved away for simply ‘being men’. Why would you turn anyone away who genuinely just want to support women getting equal rights across the globe? It sickens me…

    • Meghan Murphy

      If transactivists really cared about women and feminism, don’t you think they would respect our spaces and understand why they matter?

    • Cassandra

      Re-reading this thread, particularly comments like yours, sickens me. I mean, it really SICKENS me. I hope you’ve crawled back to your hole over on A Voice For Men, because you sound no different than an MRA.

  • Meghan Murphy

    How dare you accuse feminists of ‘slandering’ transwomen. Do you have any idea what that word means?!?! Do you realize that I have *actually* been slandered, countless times, as have many, many other feminists? Do you understand that we get violent threats, are blacklisted, harassed, and fired simply for questioning gender identity discourse??

    “Gender isn’t something defined by clothing, but by what we internally decide ourselves to be.”

    Gender is a set of stereotypes applied to people based on whether or not they are born male or female. It is not internal.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Oh my god. MALES are accused of being predators. Because they are. Fuck your gaslighting.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “The idea that trans women are perpetrators of violence is a dangerous myth perpetuated in order to invalidate their identities.”

    Do you believe male violence is a myth?

    How does one ‘invalidate’ one’s ‘identity’? What is the result?

    “Furthermore, to shift the blame of patriarchal violence onto trans women and ignore the fact that they themselves are victims of similar violence is the real gaslighting here. ”

    Nope. Feminists are well aware that homophobic violence is perpetrated by men and that, generally, men perpetrate violence against one another. That doesn’t mean male violence against women isn’t systemic on a global level.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yes, people should be free to dress and act however they like (that is really what you mean…). But the point of gender identity legislation isn’t really that… Rather, it’s to allow men to enter into women’s spaces based solely on self-identification as “women.” We don’t need these laws. If this were *just* about discriminating against people who are gender non-conforming, the law would simply say it is illegal to discriminate against people based on their appearance.

  • Meghan Murphy

    No. People are not ‘assigned’ sex at birth — they are either born male or female. Some people are born intersex and used to be assigned a sex at birth, but this is no longer common practice. Please learn the difference between sex and gender.

  • Mar Iguana

    Fuck ’em indeed. Those who hate women so deeply they are literally trying to erase us deserve no respect whatsoever.

  • Cassandra

    Nobody has any obligation, EVER, to validate anyone’s internal gender feelings or IDENTITY. It is not material. OMG you call need to get over yourselves. How fucking self-absorbed can you be?

  • Cassandra

    “Additionally, reducing womanhood to biological sex with a focus on sex organs seems rather objectifying to me, frankly.”

    OH MY GOD. Nobody is REDUCING anybody to anything. If I say the sun is a star, am I REDUCING the sun to a star? If I say a rabbit has four legs, am I REDUCING the rabbit to its legs? Facts are just facts.

    REDUCING women to their biology is what patriarchy does by saying that BECAUSE we have a FEMALE reproductive system we should be dick suckers and baby incubators. THAT is reduction. Simply stating facts about biology is not “objectifying.” God you are all such brainwashed nincompoops.

    • Just Passing Through

      They really are brainwashed nincompoops….big time.

  • Brigh Geal

    This is honestly the most disgusting thing I have ever read. The complete diversion from seeing trans women as women is just revolting. Everything in this article is just so blatantly sexist it’s actually hard to read. It’s also extremely homophobic. Just because those WOMEN were born with dicks doesn’t make them anymore accostum to the “patriachy”. They are women just like any other women on this world. Saying that this magazine is bad for only showing those who were born male or have a “masculine identity” is just plain wrong. Androgynous means showing aspects of man and woman, Bi gender means having two genders (both of those you have NO idea what they are, It could be girl and agender or mostly girl or who knows what) and Intersex means having characteristics of one’s sex that don’t align with male or female. So yeah, almost all of these people weren’t men AT ALL. And to lump them together and they that they all identify as man or masculine or have associations with men because of how they dress or their genitals is just absurd. This is a PRIME example of how modern feminism is destroying freedom in every sense of the word. First and foremost the freedom to choose one’s own path and believe what you want without being a mindless sheep that is fed information through a blog made by a sexist. Seriously, I feel ashamed that this is even considered anything other than crazy spewings from a extremist.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Actually, many lesbians consider everything you are saying to be homophobic. A lesbian is a female is who is attracted to other females, not a female who is attracted to a male who performs femininity. But who cares what they think, amirite?

      • Just Passing Through

        Have we just seriously lost the younger generation (30 and under) to the gender cultists? I’m really starting to think so.

    • Cassandra

      We simply don’t buy into this. It’s harmful to female people and it is transgender identies that are homophobic and sexist. We will not deny reality.

  • Just Passing Through

    I love how Drey S. answered this question. Not.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I’m glad you are making your MRAness clear, Toni.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Fuck off, asshole. You are banned. Enough of this.

  • Tired feminist

    The purpose of this article was to discuss the cover, not the issue. I don’t know why you’re making a fuss of this.

    If you’re “not familiar” with radical feminism, please familiarize yourself with it before complaining about our “reluctance to accept the rise of new identities”, whatever the hell you mean by that.

    Please refrain from complaining about how “opinionated” we are. How many times a day do you think we hear that one? If you don’t have any better critique to offer, shut up and read.

    No, we’re not going to calm down.

  • Tired feminist

    JFC you’re truly disgusting.

  • polarcontrol

    Sorry if I was unclear, but I don’t follow you either. What’s the contradiction?

    If we consider woman as a social (status) category, you effectively live that status if OTHERS identify you as woman (and treat you accordingly). Likewise with men & trans men.

    (Feminists fight the way these social categories today function to subordinate women.)

    These social categories derive from the biological fact that humans are sexually dimorphic, reproduce sexually, i.e. there are females and males..

    So I’m talking about sex & gender as biological and social categories. Let’s say your gender identity is “non-binary” (what ever that means), if you’re female, by default you’ll be put into the social category of woman..

  • Cassandra

    Hey hey hey MRA! Are you having fun?

  • Kristy Bliss

    Not sure “trans” does not exist in nature. I have seen roosters so feminine you would mistake them as one of the hens. On rare occasions a rooster will set on eggs if the hen is killed. etc.

  • Kristy Bliss

    Refreshing to see thoughtfulness. Thanks.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Well, you are clearly a sexist MRA, so I’m just gonna go ahead and ban you. Bye bye.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Just because you are depressed and miserable doesn’t mean the rest of us need to give up.

  • Gunther M.

    Thanks for your answer! my post was awkward and misleading:
    1-I had just picked up the Geo issue, and an internet search led me to this article
    2-the heated discussions in the comments surprised me, and gave me the illusion they were triggered by the article- its contents were also surprising to me, but since I was disagreeing with its angle (the 2 covers) I was at a loss . Hence my remarks and questions.
    I now read http://www.feministcurrent.com/2016/04/23/prince-was-not-trans-he-is-proof-that-men-need-not-be-masculine/ (including 2 very interesting posts by commentators ‘forbidden fuit’ and ‘fakefeminist’) and also followed links in M Murphy’s article ( http://www.feministcurrent.com/2016/09/27/need-braver-feminists-challenge-silencing/ ) that expose radfem concepts clearly.
    Contrary to what I said, current radfem is precisely a result of taking into account the emergence of ”gender identities” – it is, I now see, feminist critique on the move, and evolving. I would then reverse one of my sentences into ” [current] radical feminism evolved in opposition to new political identities [gender identities like transgender people existing politicaly, asking for rights/consideration]”
    I find the concept of ”gender ideology” well worth exploring, I think it is right in pointing a logical problem: one’s gender performance… is not a gender. So the Geo issue’s title should have been ”the gender performance revolution”.
    But I detect another logical problem: LGBT fought for society’s acceptance and rights (that’s what I meant by ”political identities”) and that generated LGBT identities (quickly essentialized: the majority of them indeed forgot there are no LGBT people per se throughout history before Stonewall)… whereas feminists fight for the betterment of women’s lives, for the redefinition of their place in society. What I mean is there are no LGBT people prior to their movement (they started existing there), whereas women exist prior to, and with or without feminism. A critique of the current sprouting of ”gender identities” is totally relevant, but these are also people, individuals suddenly coming to existence (however artificial, opportunistic, individualistic, relying on recent medical techniques the grounds for that existence are) so accusations of transphobia are almost inevitable at some point. I don’t think ”embracing” accusations of transphobia is an acceptable strategy (but I guess once the ”i’m not transphobic” has been met with a ”yes you are” it’s hard for the debate to go any further).

    Now I probably should identify myself: French, male, with a gay/queer perspective, trying to understand why so many people complain about feminists, or why I disagree with woman friends ‘angles/priorities in the progress towards equality ( advocating for cheaper pink razors sounded, to me, like Supermarket Equality , not Sex equality; just like denying muslim women the right to decide what to wear sounded islamophobic to me) or why some feminist stances made me uneasy : is it because they’re false or illogical, is it because I’m a man, is it because neoliberalism brainwashed me, etc ? So I’m exploring the feminist spectrum, my bias is ”affirmation through women’s voices first and foremost, but not at any intellectual and ethical cost” + ”male dominance/privilege is probably enacted and reproduced by everyone, though historically men are the most accountable for it, so no men’s right activists please” +”are there other intellectual tactics than the male privilege paradigm?”
    Along the way I discover feminist critique/philosophy I agree with, I realise I have to also question myself, I’m up for debate and ready to change my mind, I only can adhere to an ideology I find rational/convincing (and potentially promote its political counterpart to the women around me).

    Now that I’ve read some articles on this site I think I will keep reading -some of the discourse sounds deeply interesting to me, some of it I disagree with.
    Please rest assured I do not want to denature your movement…

    -Meghan Murphy should read the Geo issue: it’s more nuanced than the 2 covers, but she will find the contents illustrate her discourse (it is for instance erasing the historical importance of political feminism, as if twentieth century progress for women happened by magic; also it implies oppression on girls/women only happens in underdeveloped/developing countries)
    -I asked about MRKH syndrome because watching a documentary about it
    https://youtu.be/QCcwxS3CNhw made me want to be removed from any organ
    donor list and made me think how medical science is instrumentalizing
    women (and preying on transgender males too, who are under french law obliged to undergo hysterectomy to be granted transition).
    I think there are now two options for feminism and sex egalitarianism:
    1-go with the (over)flow of consumerism, capitalism, liberalism, neoliberalism; in that respect , in my opinion the enemy is not transgender people, ”gender ideology” encouraging ever-increasing multiple ”gender identities”… but post-humanists, trans-humanists and mostly ourselves (in our relying on medical science and industry to materialize our various gender dreams/needs)
    2-adjust instead to the limits of our bodies (and to socialism, environmentalism) and escape blackmail by medical science/industry, and target fields outside economy where to also achieve equality
    In the meantime, I find it hard to refuse surgery, hormone treatment and reproductive assistance (not to mention medical and recreational drugs) to anyone requesting them – so yeah, I asked what is radical feminism’s view on what women with MRKH syndrome should have access to in terms of medical options because in the current French clinical trials, they can benefit from dead female organ donors’, or transitioning transgender males’ uterus on the grounds that as women, they’re entitled to bear children (contrary to the limits their body sadly imposes on them) – I have a lot more respect and sympathy for women suffering from infertilty than for men undergoing penis enlargement – but this sounds like ”needs to conform to one’s gender”; I don’t think gender studies and theory starting in the eighties are the origin of that… so I will concede the risk of a ”gender ideology” (it is food for thought and I am thankful to feminist critique for revealing it), but I see no reason to get rid of the concept of gender (it is a useful tool to understand humans) and, although I have to agree there is no need to add ‘cis’ to woman/man, I lean towards the creation of an official third gender (”transgender” seems like an ideal word for it), where anyone having trouble with their body/brain/mind/social constructs/personal creativity/biology could belong (and, potentially, from which to negotiate with both female bodies-women/male bodies-men). I will of course now check the contents of ”transgender politics” and remind its supporters they cannot find justification in young kids/teens claims, nor in feminism (you are right, it’s also up to them to demonstrate how they are feminists or not anti-feminists and maybe realize it’s not the point). But I will also encourage them to circumvent DSM terminology, because it’s a historical construct of medical science, and given transgender adults can be perfectly functioning citizens, I am inclined to understand their ”disorder” as a mere difference. They are not a threat, nor the enemy ; maybe radfem and transgender political agendas should be pursued separately ?

    I hope you will have understood my post was really someone staggering from the novelty of the concept of ” gender ideology” . It has already influenced my opinion, it is useful to understand current and maybe future French feminist landscape, I may not adhere to all of it but it’s an encouragement to share ideas to the women around me, and to include a feminist agenda in my own political stances. And the next time I hear ”gender is a spectrum”, I will retort ” you mean there can be a vast spectrum of gender performance/expression/feelings , of course? ”

    PS regards to Cassandra and TiredFeminist who also reacted to my comment
    PPS i will now move on to read French feminist philosopher Geneviève Fraisse, who similarly critiques the invasion of ”gender” and advocates we should not get rid of the category of ”biological sex” (in French the word ”sex” also means biological sex; on French IDs it is the word in use, when you’re asked to declare whether you’re male or female) – but Genevieve Fraisse also recommends seeking emancipation rather than denouncing patriarchy, I kinda find that promising (maybe cause I’m a man…) but I must of course get familiar with her intellectual demonstration.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    I’ve yet to see an answer to this question, it’s almost like they don’t have one.

  • Leo

    Of course I know there are differences between people. It’s called ‘personality’. It should not be shoved into ridiculous and sexist gender boxes. I don’t ‘believe’ in genitals, biological sex, any more than I ‘believe’ in the laptop I’m typing on. It’s an actual real physical thing, belief not required.

    They can take their patronising offering of ‘non binary gender’ and shove it, I am FEMALE, that is my physical reality, thus I am a woman, because that’s what the word woman means, an adult human female, and they know that really. I don’t have to like it, I don’t have to ‘feel’ like it (I don’t. No one does, any more than they feel like they are their eye colour – you can’t feel like a physical characteristic), it’ll still be true. It’ll still be how I’m seen in this society regardless of how I ‘identified’, because there’s no way in hell I, an extremely petite female, could pass as anything else, and my femaleness is immediately observable while a claimed abstract mental feeling (if separated from sexist stereotypes, what would it mean to ‘feel’ like a woman, like a man, non binary? How could they know if that’s what it is? They have no direct access to how others feel to compare feelings), for which they do not have actual proof, is not. Because I am female, I was placed in the subordinate sex class in my society, and subjected to gendered socialisation to ensure this. That’s what femininity is, not just some quirky fun fashion choice that’s ‘mentally selected’. How I act, how I dress, my not conforming to femininity, is undermined by calling it ‘non binary’, as though any woman is, as though it’s Ok for some women and girls to be subjected to femininity. There is no one way to be a woman (by which I mean to be female). Gender is oppressive and needs to be abolished altogether, their non binary gender doesn’t do that. I don’t accept what they’re saying because they’re not making any consistent sense and are erasing female reality.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You are missing the point (not sure if accidentally or intentionally). The point is that in this case, NatGeo is clearly using feminine stereotypes (girls like pink!) as ‘proof’ that the child is really a girl. And really? Gender has no relevance to feminism?? Ok. Like, lol, ok.

  • Melanie

    I’m currently reading the issue. So far it’s been contradictory, illogical and fails to make connections and grasp the point of how harmful the concept of ‘gender’ is to girls and women in particular. There are articles and interviews that clearly illustrate the devastating impact that ‘gender’ has on girls and women, but it then goes on to promote the idea of gender uncritically anyway. It contains illogical, contradictory statements, for example that ‘gender identity’ is something biological and innate that we’re all born with and that can’t be changed, but somehow it can also change over time or we can slip between ‘genders’ at will. And then again in other articles it rightly demonstrates how we’re socialized into gender, ie. it’s not biological. I’m finding it a very frustrating read. It’s like they want to sit on the fence, have it both ways and not make the connections between ‘gender’ and the oppression of females that are staring them in the face. I would hardly call it revolutionary.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Than why the “trans?” What’s the difference between a woman and a transwoman?

  • Meghan Murphy

    The notion that females are privileged because they are born female and socialized as women is ridiculous.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yes they are.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t think you understand what the word ‘intersectionality’ means…

  • Tired feminist

    Yawn.

    Learn what intersectionality means.

    No one is oppressed on the grounds of a gender identity. Gender identity is not real.

    Transwomen are oppressed for being feminine males. The name of this is homophobia. No need for a new word.

    No, they aren’t women.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Oh I know. I’m asking YOU.

  • Meghan Murphy

    There is no such thing as ‘cis,’ actually. So, no. Women do not ‘identify’ with femininity. That is an incredibly regressive thing to say.

    • ray jack

      What the hell are you talking about? “There is no such thing as ‘cis.'” Yes there is, it’s called not being trans. And just in case you don’t understand what the purpose of the prefix ‘trans’ is, it identifies a human being who has transitioned or is transitioning into another gender physically, mentally, and most importantly: socially. Trans people do not need you invalidating their feelings and vilifying their dysphoria, thanks.

      • Meghan Murphy

        No, ‘cis’ mean that one identifies with the gender assigned to them at birth, based on their biological sex. Since gender is socialized, not an innate or chosen identity, it makes no sense that one would ‘identify’ with a socially imposed gender. I don’t identify with the feminine gender stereotypes imposed on me, therefore I am not ‘cis.’

  • Meghan Murphy

    Are you 12? Are you not able to hold conversations that move beyond “I know you are but what am I?”

  • Meghan Murphy

    Ohhhh I don’t buy that for a second. Everyone know transwomen are male. It is literally insane to dispute that.

    • ray jack

      Meghan, do you consider transsexual women to be male too or is that just crossing the line of stupid?

      • Meghan Murphy

        Transwomen ARE male. It’s not a matter of opinion.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Says the person who *just* stated transwomen aren’t male…

  • Meghan Murphy

    I’m a feminist. Also I live in the real world and don’t subscribe to nonsensical dogma. I’m not joining your religion. Sorry.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Because I’m mean and bad and a failure as a woman? Maybe I’m really a man on the inside!

  • Meghan Murphy

    kween.

  • Tired feminist

    Yeah that’s right. I remember Wren also commenting that there was a huge difference between transwomen who are gay (i.e. attracted to males) and those who are straight. Obviously only the gay ones experience homophobia.

  • Meghan Murphy

    lol yeah because we NEVER talk about masculinity, femininity, or, you know, PATRIARCHY, in any other context than w/r/t trans.

  • <3

  • Angry MFFer

    You get rid of the female, you get rid of the species. Sad, sad National Geographic. They are a bunch of horrible ppl.

  • ptittle

    And if I identify as a handicapped person, I should be able to use the designated parking space closest to the entrance. Great.

    And if I feel like I have learning disabilities, I should be able to get extra time to write my exams. Cool.

  • ptittle

    Can you point me toward a source that disproves that myth? Thanks.

  • Cassandra

    “What is progressive about statements like: There is no female biology? How can women come together in solidarity when we are now being asked to agree that men are also women?”

    Bingo. What the fuck does feminism even mean anymore? What a spectacular job queer theory has done of completely derailing our progress.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I cannot for the life of me figure out what you are talking about.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Naw. “TERF” is an anti-feminist slur used by anti-feminists to silence feminist speech and to smear and attack women.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I’ve made my argument around gender identity quite clear, many times over. As have many other women. Feel free to read up: http://www.nationalobserver.com/2016/10/25/opinion/opinion-bill-c-16-flawed-ways-most-canadians-have-not-considered http://www.feministcurrent.com/2016/09/27/need-braver-feminists-challenge-silencing/

    In fact, gender is ideology. It is an idea that is imposed on people in order to enforce a hierarchy called male supremacy.

    Feminists fight for women’s liberation from patriarchy and male violence. That is our focus.

    How people want to dress or identify in their own personal lives doesn’t scare me. And I have not said trans people are ‘problematic’ anywhere. The *idea* of gender identity is what is a problem. Also, male trying to force themselves into women’s spaces are a problem. Claiming that ‘woman’ is a feeling or set of stereotypes is a problem. How individuals feel is not my problem, until they start to try to impose those feelings on everyone else and those feelings undermine women’s rights and safety.

    If you are going to disagree with me, disagree with the arguments I’m making and the actual words I’m saying.

  • Cassandra

    Yes.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Except that “TERF” is simply used against anyone who puts forth a feminist analysis of gender or understands that female biology is real and matters. TERF is used explicitly to misrepresent feminist arguments, to smear women, and to silence. It is also most-often paired with other misogynist terms and with threats. It is equally disingenuous to compare feminist analysis to being a Nazi.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yes you have. Feminists are not ‘discriminating against trans people,’ they are arguing that gender identity is not a real thing and is, in fact, a regressive, sexist idea and they are also arguing that they have the right to spaces without males in them. Here are just a few examples. There are many, many more. https://twitter.com/MeghanEMurphy/status/816114249181237248

  • Meghan Murphy

    Feminists don’t discriminate against trans people. You (ironically!) are simplifying our arguments and analysis for the sake of your argument.

    Transwomen are male. Everyone knows that. Even, I suspect, you.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Feminist analysis of gender does not = ‘discrimination.’ Women wanting woman-only spaces does not = discrimination (unless you also believe that other marginalized groups, like Indigenous people, must always accommodate white people in their spaces/organizing lest they be accused of ‘discrimination.’)

    I have never claimed to understand your experience, nor have I claimed you haven’t suffered pain and confusion.

    I’m sorry that you suffer from dysphoria, but that suffering does not mean feminists must accept the notion that gender is internal or a personal identity, when they know otherwise.

    Flinging the word “TERF” at women simply because they center women in their politics and because they understand gender as something that exists to maintain male domination and female subordination is dishonest, misogynist bullying.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Um, you are talking to and about feminists, who are putting forth a feminist analysis of gender and patriarchy. Who do you think you are talking to, exactly? And about what?

    And no, refusing to recognize males who identify as transwomen as literal women is not discrimination. Understanding that gender non conforming males are not literal women is not discrimination.

    Feminist theory rests on the understanding that gender is socialized. There are countless studies that show how early gender socialization works. We know that women are not naturally passive, nurturing, or subordinate, and to argue otherwise puts you in the same category as men who believed women shouldn’t vote or work outside the home.

    “TERF” is used to describe any person who understands that female biology exists and matters, to describe any feminist who supports safe spaces for women, and to smear feminists who challenge the notion of gender identity. It is never used in a fair, truthful, or respectful way and is simply a bullying tactic which functions to scare women into silence and make them afraid to express solidarity with other women.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I do sometimes let some through to show examples, but honestly it would be too overwhelming to let the bulk of the awful comments through. My priority here is to make space for feminists to have productive conversations without constantly being derailed by misogynist garbage, since that seems to be the norm everywhere else. It just gets tiring after years the same old thing…

  • Meghan Murphy

    “You have said TERF “is never used in a fair, truthful, or respectful way…” Be careful when you use definitive words like “never”. How can you possibly know? You would have to review every (literally every) use of the word “TERF” to say it is “never” used in a fair, truthful, or respectful way.”

    I know because me and my sisters are called “TERF” (and worse) every single day.

    Your claims that I am exaggerating are condescending and deeply misogynistic.

    Women are not obligated to accept their oppressors as women, and no one is obligated to accept any individual’s internal identity as objective fact.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Nnnnope. Not talking about me, in particular. Talking about the way the term is used, always. You understand that I am connected to thousands of feminists worldwide and work with other women in real life, right? Beyond that, anyone with eyes and an internet connection can see how ‘TERF’ is used to attack, smear, bully, and silence women/challenges to gender identity dogma.

    And I’m fairly certain Trump would happily call transwomen women. He doesn’t give a shit about women’s spaces, autonomy, or rights. He certainly believes, as you do, that gender is innate, not socialized.