Six thoughts I have about Kim Kardashian

I am resenting the world right now for forcing me to care about Kim Kardashian’s (most-recent) naked selfie post. Because deep down, in my heart of hearts, I don’t care about Kim Kardashian’s naked selfie post. But everyone else does! And as is often the case, it’s when other people start weighing in with their thoughts and cares and Very Important Opinions, that issues and conversations related to naked celebrity selfies become interesting.

First, let’s review!

Kim K posts naked selfie:

Several celebrities say things:

Kim K defends herself:

https://twitter.com/KimKardashian/status/707077609964699648

Miley Cyrus weighs in:

Amber Rose and Pink weigh in:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BCvP5njkq5K/

Damn Pink we were all born naked society sexualizes our breast and bodies. If a grown mother of 2 is comfortable with her body and wants to show it off that's none of ur business or anyone else's. Now, if u wanna talk to kids and be a mentor to young teens, tell them to go to school and to not use their bodies to get ahead?! I'm all for it! But please as a grown woman let another grown woman live as she wishes. That's our problem! We're so quick to down each other instead of uplifting! Pink, We've seen u damn near naked swinging from a rope( Beautifully) but what's the difference between a rope, a pole and a pic on Instagram? Classism. Because u sing while ur half naked does that make it "Classy" or is it because u have a "talent"? I'm not dissing at all Pink just curious after u said "You'll never have to make a silly excuse for yourself".

A photo posted by Amber Rose (@amberrose) on

Kim uses naked selfie brouhaha (and International Women’s Day) to sell product:

Internet conclusion:

Kim is liberated! Women are liberated! LIBERATION FOR EVERYONE!

Whew. So many tweets! So many liberations! I’ll make this quick:

1) Kim K is a marketing genius! By which I mean, of course, she is well aware that posting naked selfies is an excellent way to further her bank account and celebrity. Now is a good time to remind everyone that the only reason Kim is famous is because she decided she wanted to be famous. Her most notable skill is the ability to be a celebrity, to gain public attention, and to profit from said attention.

2) Kim K does not deserve to be shamed for her sex tape. Which, apparently, people still like to do. Move on. I also don’t think it’s useful, interesting, or necessary to tell her to put her clothes back on. Kim K is not ever going to put her clothes back on.

3) Kim K does not post naked selfies of herself in order to liberate women from oppression. She does it for her career. Kim has the right to build a career however she likes, but the fact that she is successful at this does not necessarily make her a role-model for women. In other words, her self-objectification is not helpful to anyone, except maybe her, in a bank account-type way (which she admits to wholeheartedly). Men’s jack off material is not revolutionary. (The non-censored version is being shared out there by dudes on Twitter, too, for the record, among the many other nude photos of Kim that she and Kanye put online, fairly routinely. I’m not gonna link to it though, nope.)

4) Kim K is literally defending the millions of dollars she is making as we speak for, again, doing nothing significant whatsoever. Ok, that’s not entirely true… The video game she references in her tweet is called “Kim Kardashian: Hollywood.” In the game, the player’s goal is to “increase their fame and reputation, starting on the E-list and rising to the A-list.” So I guess the significant thing she is doing is contributing to the notion that the most important thing one can be in life is “famous.” Which is, really, kind of her signature thing and has also shaped our culture in a pretty notable, albeit horrible, way.

Kim Kardashian: Hollywood

5) I’d like to take this opportunity to answer Kim’s very serious question about “why people get so bothered by what other people choose to do with their lives”: It’s because your entire raison d’être is making other people care about every single thing you have ever chosen to do in your life, Kim. Like, literally. You were made famous through a reality show* which was created in order to make you famous. By engaging the entire world in all of the things you choose to do with your life.

Now, this doesn’t mean I think Kim deserves to be shit on or what some like to call “slut-shamed,” it just means that trying to make this conversation about “liberation” or “body-shaming” and then propping Kim up as some brave feminist icon is, IMHO, incredibly stupid.

6) In conclusion, this:

*Full disclosure, I enjoy watching Keeping Up with the Kardashians. I like Kourtenay’s lipstick, I think Khloe is funny, and I also think they are actually a kind of nice family, in that they seem to care a great deal for one another. I also watch Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. I am not proud of this and do not endorse reality TV watching as an Official Feminist Pastime.

Meghan Murphy
Meghan Murphy

Founder & Editor

Meghan Murphy is a freelance writer and journalist. She has been podcasting and writing about feminism since 2010 and has published work in numerous national and international publications, including New Statesman, Vice, Al Jazeera, The Globe and Mail, I-D, Truthdig, and more. Meghan completed a Masters degree in the department of Gender, Sexuality and Women’s Studies at Simon Fraser University in 2012 and lives in Vancouver, B.C. with her dog.

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  • TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsYoya

    Meghan, I too watch Kardashians and Housewives. I don’t feel one bit bad about it and also think the Kardashians are kind of a nice family. Often when people are shitting on them, it feels like there’s a misogynistic undertone to it. We permit ourselves as a society to say they are sluts, trashy, whores, golddiggers and the like. The worst criticism to me is that they “dominate” their men, because they don’t put up with a lot of BS from men, because the women in the family are successful (whether you agree on my measure of success or not, they are at the very least financially successful). The level of hatred and disgust people express can be shocking.

    I couldn’t care less that Kim posted this photo. We’ve seen far more of her body before. Piers Morgan’s comment was disgusting. He needs to not be telling women to put on more clothes EVER. Mind his own damn business.

    I kinda feel Amber Rose’s rebuttal to Pink, but at the same time I’m not down with AR’s “women are the REAL misogynists” brand of feminism. Women internalise the misogyny of the culture around them and direct their anger to an “acceptable” recipient, like Kim Kardashian. We sacrifice a woman like her so we can distance ourselves from the worst of patriarchy (even if only in our own minds).

    • Melissa Cutler

      So well put. I completely agree with you. The level of hatred and shock people have expressed definitely has a misogynistic undertone. I cringe at bringing up Hilary Clinton because I don’t want to get political at all in this post and derail the conversation, but there is a tone to the criticism of her that reminds me a lot about the tone of criticism for Kim K and so many other famous women. It’s a level of rageful vitriol that is only reserved for women who put themselves out there in the public eye.

      Just look at the difference in tone in comments about Kim K’s nude photo vs, Justin Bieber’s nude that he posted on Instagram last year (the one in which he was on a boat).

  • Snobo

    I can hardly think of anything more perturbing than the compulsion to attribute boner appeasement to female empowerment.

    • lk

      Every action and product is liberating and empowering! Plastic surgery, lipstick, push up bras, pornography= empowering! The other day I saw an advertisement for some product that makes it easier (less messy) to have sex while menstruating…part of the advertisement was about how empowering it is….

  • JingFei

    Honestly, I don’t get it. I love video games, and do not understand WHY anyone would buy her game. If this family were to disappear and evaporate into the Nether tomorrow, it could not come soon enough.
    I’ve only known who they are for about 2 years and I could sincerely do without hearing about their vacuous narcissism on an almost daily basis. She has done nothing of value for anyone, anywhere, ever. She started off with hundreds of millions of dollars. She was obscenely wealthy simply because she was born. It takes almost no effort to make millions when you start with millions ( and then sell sex or whatever it is she’s doing).

    Thankfully, there is a Brit making an app to block out all information coming from them that will be free for us to use.

    • liz t.

      I saw her game was free on facebook. I highly doubt she will make much money out of it for that reason.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Well she claims to have made millions already.

    • TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsYoya

      I find the “she has done nothing of value” criticism interesting. It comes up frequently, but I’d venture to guess that 95-98% of people who say this also have contributed little to this world. I think people find it unfair that she’s financially rewarded for doing…not much at all. But i think that means we need to be angry at and examine a culture that enables that to happen, rather than directing our anger at Kim. She’s not the one that decided how our culture should react to someone like her, and I can’t be mad at her for using it to her advantage. But it’s so much easier to direct the anger at an individual than to try and change our whole culture.

      • JingFei

        I don’t hate her ( I don’t know her). I’m simply incredibly tired of not being able to escape her or her family. They are everywhere. I am totally annoyed at the culture that allows her to perpetuate this, yes of course. But she isn’t absolved of all responsibility for perpetuating the same old regressive crap.
        As for 95%-98% of us having contributed little to this world, probably true, however, we don’t have a hundred million dollars and a powerful platform. Most of us were born in either poverty, or middle class. I lived in an apartment with family the size of a western closet. Personally I’ve done a lot in my own ways where I can in my life. But staggering, obscene wealth can do so very much for this world. It can make enormous, visible changes. With her platform, she could really make a difference. I mean, perhaps she donates to charities? I’m not sure. But having lived outside of it for most of my life, I find the greed, extravagance, and narcissism of American celebrity very off-putting.
        You’re free to like Kim Kardashian all you want, but I have every right to find her irritating.

        • TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsYoya

          I neither hate or like her and I don’t care what others think of her. But there is a certain level of vitriol reserved for women, and especially women like her, that disturbs me.

          • JingFei

            I’m able to be annoyed by both male and female celebrities equally.

  • Jack Sprat

    I think it’s funny that there are so many people who equate “nudity” with “being liberated” and try to constantly say that ALL NUDITY is somehow liberating. I mean, I agree that a person should be able to do anything they want with their own bodies BUT when you expose yourself publicly then you should be aware of the context of what you present.
    I feel nothing at all for Kim but I have the opinion that she has, as this article points out, made herself rich and famous just by working to make herself rich and famous. Actually, I don’t give her all the credit as her own mother has been the family manager for years. What most disappoints me about her, though, is that she wants to be seen as a role model and a feminist but all she’s done is feed the over-sexualized culture that we live in and pander to it shamelessly.
    I hope that when we do get a truly liberated and equal society there actually won’t be a place for someone like her who simply works to get attention with her body because I believe that in a liberated and equal society EVERYONE will be confident enough to show themselves or not at their leisure and seeing a human body will become so commonplace and normal that Kim will be, simply put, out of a job.

    • Rachel

      Yes very true. One thing I’d say though – people associate women being naked with being liberated. Doesn’t seem to work the other way around…

  • pandora50

    “When you’re like I have nothing.Period ~ to wear LOL” As in nothing meaningful to contribute to this world.

  • therealcie

    I don’t think that Kim or anyone else should be called nasty names for posting revealing photos. I don’t have a problem with nudity. I used to pick up extra cash working as an art school model.
    This may seem like an old-fashioned and backasswards attitude to some, but as a mother, I would think twice about posting sexual photos of myself. Her children are too young to be getting backlash from their peers now, but they will as they get older. I know, old and prude.
    I don’t hate Kim Kardashian. She actually seems like a nice enough person. However, Kim does seem to be screaming “LOOK AT MEEEEEEE,” which is her right, but doing so is hardly either empowering or feminist.

    • TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsYoya

      I agree. I suppose it’s attention-seeking, and I want to believe it’s calculated. This is her brand – being “sexy”, and famous, and posting this generates a lot of chatter about her. Empowering? No, I don’t think so. That doesn’t mean I’m against her posting this though. This is what Kim K is about.

  • therealcie

    BTW, Meghan, I’d not feel too ashamed about watching Keeping Up With the Kardashians. About The Real Housewives, maybe a little. 😉
    However, maybe not so much when you discover that I watched all the seasons of The Flavor of Love and Rock of Love, plus Daisy of Love. Talk about your trash TV!

    • Meghan Murphy

      Ha! Yes I suppose it could be worse 🙂

  • lk

    “Kim uses naked selfie brouhaha (and International Women’s Day) to sell product”

    Its so interesting that she used the link after the IWD hashtag to sell her product. It would have been cool to see her link to something that that might help other women (like a woman’s shelter).

    There seems to be this weird push towards Kim Kardashian as feminist. It seems like everyone else is giving her the feminist label, but the only thing I think she’s ever said about feminism was in the Rolling Stones
    article. (Last month, Thinx had this whole article that was titled to “a love letter to feminist Kim Kardashian”
    where they extolled all the things that make her a feminist including being a mother and a wife).

    Why is there this such a need to claim Kim K (and everything she does) as a feminist?

    • TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsYoya

      I think for a long time “feminist” was a dirty word to many. It’s like a backlash against that idea – now everyone wants to claim it. I’m happy that people are no longer afraid of the word, but they are still afraid of the ideas, instead trying to mold feminism into something that won’t make the menfolk too uncomfortable.

  • Rachel

    Although I dont watch their show, mainly because I don’t watch TV at all really, I also agree that they do seem like quite a caring family. I also like the fact they don’t seem to Put up with a logon crap from men like another TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsYoya said. And yes she is extremely business savvy. I wouldn’t have the confidence in myself to do what she does, or the ability to swallow my self respect and do the things she does (I don’t mean showing her body when I say that, I mean more like selling myself out to the system just for a quick million bucks). However I find it kind of ironic that people call her for being stupid and dumb and everything else, yet they are being blind sighted by the game that’s gives her money.

  • Meghan Murphy

    We do question the concept of family…. I’m not sure where you got the idea we didn’t?

  • Meghan Murphy

    What women sneer at women who like sci fi or play video games? I’ve honestly never heard of that before?

    • liz t.

      I am a huge Star Trek fan. Sadly I was ridiculed by some of my female peers for being a nerd. Strangely enough any guy I ever met thought that I was cool for liking it even if they thought it was nerdy too. I have this theory that a lot of women just love to hate on each other which is why I think a lot of women like watching Kim’s show-to make fun of it. I know I will probably get a lot of flak for saying this but sometimes I think women are way too drawn to drama.

      • Meghan Murphy

        I’m shocked! So many of my male and female friends are into Star Trek I feel left out! I can’t imagine anyone being shamed for liking Star Trek, honestly.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Just about every journalist and/or professional writer is on Twitter… I’m not fan of the medium, as I’ve been clear about over the years, but still… Not just celebrities, no. Though they of course have the largest platforms there.

    • Alienigena

      My apologies. Even as I wrote that line I know that people in my field (technology, higher education, web accessibility) need to establish their credibility and expertise by having presence on Twitter. Especially if they are sessionals, or freelancers. I think it is sad that the people who get the most attention are the self-serving (also maintaining their rep, I realize, just wish they wouldn’t) celebrities. I just don’t care about celebrities. I can admire someone’s skill (e.g. fiction writing) without admiring the person. To me their work speaks, I just don’t want to hear them speak outside of that (acting, sports, fiction writing, etc.). I don`t have that need … I appreciate what they have to give professionally … but have no interest in any other aspect of their lives. That is not to say that if they have been abusing children or women that I would not re-assess them and their creative products.

  • TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsYoya

    Observing that someone seems to have a nice family is only that. It’s not a comment on whether any of them are good people. These are complete strangers that we may feel we know due to their media presence but in reality we know very, very little about what kind of people they really are

  • TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsYoya

    Oh no, I watch rom coms and reality TV AND I like Sci fi. And I’m a programmer. Who am I supposed to be sneering at?! It’s almost as if women are like complex…humans that should not be lumped into vague stereotypes to be derided!

    • Alienigena

      There is also snobbery amongst people who like sci-fi. I worked in a lab with a male grad student who thought that an author’s work shouldn’t be called science fiction if there wasn’t actually science (feasible, given current understanding) or technology in it (or technology likely to be developed). So Ursula Kay LeGuin (not sci-fi, speculative fiction I guess) and god knows what he would thought of Tanith Lee whose short stories (I guess most would be considered fantasy, but some verges on the sci-fi) I love. I think women are as good at stereotyping as men … and rarely admit that they stereotype. I have seen comments on this site about how androgynous lesbians are (seemed a rather snippy comment) … I didn’t comment on that comment because why bother … the Internet is enough of a snipe fest already. I don’t think it is possible to characterize a group (lesbians) by one descriptor … I think generally it is a ‘pot calling kettle black’ scenario re: stereotyping.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I watch it every once in a while, yeah. Certainly not religiously. How old are you, out of curiosity? And how old do you think I am? (Asking re: the generation comment).

  • TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsYoya

    Kim is not a “porn star”. Whether the release of the tape was planned or truly an accident it was 13 years ago. At what point does a woman get to leave her past behind? This is always the card that’s trotted out, and it’s said in such a derogatory way. Why is Ray J not derided as a “porn star”? Why are we SO angry at Kim about this?

    If you don’t watch her show I don’t think it’s fair to attribute the reason anyone else does to be “narcissism”. I find their family dynamics the most interesting aspect of the show and that’s the main reason I watch.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Agree. Also, yeah, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t intentional, on Kim’s part… She’s been pretty tormented by the tape for years…

    • Tired feminist

      I think this liz t. is a troll. He or she is always around blaming women for stuff. Which is a typical troll behavior.

      • liz t.

        I think you have a hard time being critical of the actions and behaviors of some women. I think you probably feel that women are naturally perfect and men are inherently evil. Why else would you accuse me of being a trolling male?

        • Meghan Murphy

          No Liz. We are plenty critical of women’s actions and behaviours here.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Watched Vanderpump Rules last night. Anyone else?

    • JingFei

      lol I stopped on that once because I saw a guy with bandages on his nose, but I just can’t into any of that type of show where rich people talk to a camera about stuff ( just doesn’t hold my interest). The closest thing I get to reality TV that I watch recently is My 600lbs Life, and those TLC shows like My Strange Addiction ( where a woman can be addicted to eating beds, or a man being in a sexual relationship with 21 inflatable pool toys).

      • Alienigena

        “… a man being in a sexual relationship with 21 inflatable pool toys”

        That could be the starting point of a story in a short fiction writing course I took at university some time ago.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I agree that the younger generation is very narcissistic, I just tend to see it as having begun with those who are maybe 10+ years younger than me. In part because of changing styles of parenting, but also because of the internet/social media, which wasn’t around, really, until I was an adult. But you’re probably right that it’s impacted all of us in some way. It’s not as though my generation has escaped narcissism.

  • Meghan Murphy

    ^^^^

  • Meghan Murphy

    We “all” do? I don’t think so… I certainly don’t. Men are far more dramatic and irrational than women are.

    • liz t.

      I think all humans are dramatic and irrational but society deems it ok for women to socialize in that nature. That’s why a group of guy friends are far less likely to gossip or talk about negative things than a group of women friends. I always steered more towards hanging out with guys for this reason.

      • Meghan Murphy

        I find the opposite is consistently true and honestly am wondering how many real-life people you spend time with, based on your odd assessment of people’s (especially women’s) behaviour? Men are emotional children because they aren’t taught to be emotional grownups and because the individuals in their life and society at large don’t hold them to higher standards.

  • Misanthropia

    Kim Kardashian is not a feminist and will not be. It’s the same old liberal feminists who are trying to pass this off as an empowering act or something, when in reality it doesn’t even come close. It’s like the FEMEN fiasco, where young attractive women are displayed for men to see and their actual message gets distorted. How many fat, stretch marked, hairy, unattractive women do you think would be willing to pose naked for a photo? Not many. Kim Kardashian is allowed because she’s an ‘attractive’ woman and in a patriarchy flashing yourself is accepted if you are deemed fuckable enough by men, which Kim K has been. We need to promote a better way of being liberated in our bodies than this.

  • Melissa Cutler

    I wholly disagree that younger generations are especially narcissistic. I say this as a 39 year old former high school teacher with a 13 year old daughter, and as the daughter of two textbook definition narcissists. I think every generation has thought the younger ones are self-absorbed, shallow attention grabbers with shoddy morals. And when we talk about young women in such negative, patently untrue ways we’re revealing our internalized misogyny, as well as an inability to look critically at our own generation and the generations that came before us. This attitude has the same origins as dress codes for school girls and victim blaming women for rape. Let’s stop talking about what’s wrong with young women and shine our feminist lights on the real problems. Kim K is not the real problem. Neither is Amber Rose. They’re causing some damage to the cause, for sure, but they’re products of the same patriarchy that has screwed us all over.

    p.s. If you want to see a bunch of teenagers trying way too hard to look cool, check out the 1950s surf culture or Gidget or anybody in the 1960s. Or 70s. Or 80s. As far as hip hop goes, there is so much rich diversity right now and so many complex stories being told, it’s mind blowing. Kendrick Lamar, in particular, is a game changer. And great music videos are still being made. Beyonce’s latest is genius. The videos just air on youtube now.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Right on, Melissa.

    • liz t.

      Lamar and Beyonce are great but that’s 2 out of 100 commercial artists. Rock, pop, and hip hop are all dead on the commercial level. When there’s a generation of people that call Kanye genius what does that say? All he does is auto tune and he has no flow. Shit Snoop Dogg or anyone from that time would rap circles around him, Drake, Future, any of that crap that is put out today.

  • JingFei

    LOL. Wow. I mean… just wow.

  • JingFei

    I am so looking that up!

  • liz t.

    My son just walked in the room and asked what I was writing about and I said Kim Kardashian. He gave the side eye and I said, “well as it pertains to her degrading of feminism”. He said “you know if everyone just stopped talking about them they’d go away.” lol

  • lk

    Lifetime movies are so bad, they’re good…and they just suck you in!! Like, you randomly flip onto lifetime and start watching a few minutes and then you just have to see how the movie ends.
    I’ve been guilty of watching a few, but I don’t tell anyone…..

  • Meghan Murphy

    So did Sharon Stone… I’m not saying she and Kim K are the same, but just posing in Playboy doesn’t make one a ‘porn star’… Honestly I have no real interest in drawing some arbitrary line between actresses who pose in porn rags and women who aren’t famous who do, I’m just saying that to call Kim a ‘porn star’ just because she posed in Playboy is kind of inaccurate, unless you want to call every woman who ever posed for Playboy a ‘porn star’…

  • Alienigena

    I don’t agree that it is just ‘the young’uns’ that have an annoying habit of having their noses glued to their phones/devices. My older sister constantly has her nose in her phone but I think much of this is her work (property management) and the fact she has children in their twenties. She stays in touch through her phone as neither of her children live/work in the same city as her. I work with people who constantly have their eyes and fingers glued to their devices during meetings. They even walk out of meetings to engage with their devices. But I work in a semi-tech field (online education). These are annoying behaviours and believe me I won’t be alarm calling (see ground squirrels or non-human primates) if one of them walks into traffic while overly involved with their devices (sadly, that rarely seems to happen).

  • esuth

    I want to get stickers made that say “Stop saying empowered when you mean rich.”

    • Meghan Murphy

      yes!

    • Hierophant2

      Still, most of the time, “empowered” doesn’t even mean “rich.” They apply it to a lot of poor women too.

  • Alienigena

    I have letters after my name (BSc, MA, PhD) but you are right … it is all crap. Hard to be an unconventional (but not necessarily in an interesting way to society in general) person in corporate settings or academic ones.

    • Rachel

      Oh yes, no sorry I didn’t mean that as an insult against people with letters after their name. I myself have a couple of degrees and aim to get more letters after my name too. I value education, I just also realise many women don’t get the opportunities I’ve had to study, whether they excel in different areas of life or life kept them down. Either way I don’t think my intellectual intelligence means I should be admire anymore than those who don’t have the same abilities.

  • radwonka

    “can we all put the cuntiness aside for one fucking day and love / celebrate one another!”

    More like “let’s sexualise and pornify each other, oh yeah! if you don’t you’re a cunt!”.

    “if a woman is comfortable that’s none of your business”

    More like “if a woman has been socialized into porn norms, no one, especially prude women, should criticize it”. (Meaning: “let’s celebrate porn norms! let’s stigmatize women who don’t! monsters!”)

    “feminists” my ass, their focus and protection always goes to porn norms and the porn industry. Making women, young teenagers, feel guilty if they criticize porn norms, and dont see porn norms as “a way to feel comfortable with your body”, is the most disgusting, yet predictable, thing a libfeminist can do.

    In the end that “feeling comfortable” argument just means “not wanting to criticize socialized norms”. How f*cking useless can libfem be, it’s beyond libertarian males and their pseudo indifference/apolitism level.

    That said, I notice two things: the first is that women should not be critical, and should all be best friends who love porn norms (since when do women have to support this? who are they to decide what women should blindly support? that’s manipulative af), and secondly, if those women think that criticizing Kim’s pic on the WID is the WORST thing it is because they see porn norms and feminity as a part of womanhood, in other words they don’t defend women, they defend essentialist and misogynist roles. They can’t even imagine a world where women would “feel comfortable” without porn norms, and that’s tragic.

    • Alienigena

      I just try to ignore KKW and others like her. I don’t engage with celebrity culture if I can possibly help it. I haven’t watched the Oscars since I was 16 years old and living at home (my family watched the Oscars, I don’t know why). I choose to be willfully ignorant (by not having a TV, using my mobile phone only sparingly, don’t like phones anyway). I don’t see much to redeem popular culture (didn’t see much in it when I was a child or adolescent). But that stance can really offend people. If you don’t like who they like, they can become very hostile. Are the women who are saying we should all be best friends the same people who bullied other girls?

      I remember as a five year old girl listening to older girls (ages 7-8) try to convince their younger sibling not to invite me to her birthday party (she didn’t cave, very admirable) because they had something against my older sister (what she had done was never made clear). These girls seemed to have adult levels of skill in terms of their ability to influence others (for the worse). The rivalries of little girls are just the training ground for adult women. Women don’t abandon these behaviours when they hit adulthood (shunning, excluding, or ridiculing, mobbing, gossiping). I realize men exhibit all these behaviours but I think it would be disingenous to claim that women do none of these things. I think certain parents like their children to adopt their bad habits (e.g. my father), like underage smoking, drinking (although sex is a bit stickier area, possibly literally) because they need to have their life choices validated by their offspring. So too do certain people need to have their life choices and preferences validated (constantly) by the imitation of others.

      • radwonka

        “But that stance can really offend people. If you don’t like who they
        like, they can become very hostile. Are the women who are saying we
        should all be best friends the same people who bullied other girls?”

        Yep, they claim that women should all be best friends yet are the first ones who will stigmatize those who don’t celebrate what they like.
        You can notice the same hypocrisy with the “choice” rhetoric: they say that we should all blindly celebrate choices, yet stigmatize and despise women who openly don’t support porn norms, and silence women who “choose” to fight the sex industry.
        Not that there is anything wrong if women don’t celebrate every “choices” other women make, (it’s not even logically possible, it’s kinda a circular logic), but this behavior is just the opposite of their main slogan which is “let women do whatever they want without judging”.

        And they don’t celebrate “every choices”, they celebrate only 2 “choices”: the “choice” to perform feminity, and the “choice” to perform porn norms. You’ll never see them apply the choice logic to any other topic, and vice versa, you’ll never see them promote anything else than porn norms.

        tldr: They’re very porn centric, not women centric.

        “Women don’t abandon these behaviours when they hit adulthood (shunning, excluding, or ridiculing, mobbing, gossiping).”

        That’s true, it reminds me of how “empowered sex workers” exclude and harass survivors on tumblr and twitter. It’s very immature (you’ll see them saying things like: “You’re just prude” or “you’re liar”, or “It’s not my fault if your boyfriend prefers me haha” etc etc), and also, very agressive and hypocritical.

        “certain people need to have their life choices and preferences validated (constantly) by the imitation of others.”

        Indeed, that might explain why they always feel so insecure when a minority thinks differently than them.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Talking about problems does not = ‘drama,’ ‘cattiness,’ or ‘gossip’. Internalized misogyny is real.

    • liz t.

      No but drama, gossip, and cattiness can all be related to each other. As Alienigena pointed out that these are social behaviors that often begin in childhood and continue through adulthood. I think it’s interesting that you seem to not have any idea that they exist because these were some of the earliest topics discussed in women’s studies classes. It’s all about how women can begin to treat each other better. I understand that radical fems often times don’t find it very popular to be critical of women but it is extremely necessary in order to build better societies.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Can you please stop with the sweeping assumptions and generalizations? It’s not helpful and does, as others have pointed out, make it seem like you are trolling. Thanks.

        • liz t.

          You just made some very sweeping assumptions and generalizations about men so does that make you a troll or is that welcomed on your site? It is related to the topic considering all the support and backlash towards KK. If I choose to consider KK on the same level as a porn star, video aside, purely because she chooses to release pornographic photo after pornographic photo in a attempt to “break the internet” then does that make me a troll or any less of a feminist?

          • Meghan Murphy

            I didn’t make assumptions — I commented on my experiences with the many men in my life, past and present, (and based on the many women I talk to about their relationships with men) and discussed the way men are socialized. Like, #notallmen, ok, but the way men are socialized in this culture are real and I am pretty confident in saying I know and speak to more men and women, on a regular basis, than you.

          • liz t.

            Probably so considering I work very hard and long hours. I still think you probably don’t have much of a range of friends because most rad fems are only able to make friends with other rad fems. So of course the men you know are probably like most rad fem hipsters that whine and cry about everything and seem childish. It’s funny how you can’t stand Beyonce supporting a very important black cause but you give Kim Kardashian a pass for supporting feminism.

          • Meghan Murphy

            lol. Tell that to my friends. Move on, Liz.

          • Meghan Murphy

            Hey Liz, noticed you just made up a new name in order to comment as a “black woman” named “Lemelia.” I guess we were right about you. Banning you now.

          • will

            “you give Kim Kardashian a pass for supporting feminism.”

            Yeah, that didn’t happen.

            #trollstink

          • Meghan Murphy

            Seriously. It’s like ‘she’ didn’t read at all! Or, ya know, that whole trolling thing… Pathetic.

  • Hierophant2

    “I thought Twitter was mainly for angry, opinionated and narcissistic celebrities”

    And also people like me who like to insult said celebrities whenever they say something misogynistic or just plain stupid

  • Jeyssika

    This is what happens when you have choice feminism, everything a woman does instantly becomes seen as potentially feminist in some way. Never seems to occur to libfems that women are people too, that some of them want to get rich too and all that. Instead it’s ’cause each woman is acting for all women all the time & any criticism/critique is The Worst Thing Ever. There’s a reason that there aren’t loads of men who are purely famous for being pretty, getting naked, and being an It Boy (spoilers its sexism).

    • Snobo

      At long last! Thanks to the courageous advocacy of pioneers like Kim Kardashian, women are finally empowered to take off all their clothes and look sexy in a way that appeals to heterosexual men! Susan B Anthony would be so proud!

  • liz t.

    You are right about the spelling. Me being critical about the social norms of how women end up treating each other is not “attacking women”. I guess you don’t care to much for Gloria Steinem because these are issues she’s been talking about for a long time. It’s a shame that some radical feminists consider any criticism of women an attack.

    • Meghan Murphy

      We “don’t care much for Gloria Steinem”!?!? First, that is an incredibly silly thing to say/presume. Second, what on EARTH does that have to do with anything??

    • Tinfoil the Hat

      Sorry … I truly wasn’t directing my comment AT you. I should have been more clear. I apologize.

      I am a big fan of Gloria Steinem. And, all criticism of women is not sexism. Who said that? Not I. I said that often, women DO criticize other women as a way to ingratiate themselves with patriarchy, which ALWAYS sells out women in the end.

  • will

    I’m your age and I have no corresponding experience. I have memories of my very early years of being indoctrinated to believe that men and women behaved in the stereotyped ways you describe. But in the subsequent decades my lived experience countered those stereotypes entirely. Perhaps you are surrounded by a particularly conservative group of people?

  • Misanthropia

    Yeah but the difference between you and Kim Kardashian is that she’s conforming to beauty standards and you’re not. Women are either fuckable or invisible.

    • Tinfoil the Hat

      So true.

  • Sara Marie

    Your comment makes me think of how much shit Andrea Dworkin got and still gets for having an “unfeminine” appearance. Her appearance combined with her sense of her own worth threatened men and male power, which is why she was and is so vilified.

    There are naked photos of women all over the ‘net. I hardly see what Kim is doing as unique at all. Also, I am really not super familiar with her, but what I have seen from her, well, it just doesn’t appeal to me. She’s not particularly smart or intellectual or even unique from what I’ve seen.

  • will

    “Drama”? Try neuroscience, sociology, media studies, life experience.