The third wave’s tokenization of Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie is anything but intersectional

Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie

“How could she say such a thing?!” Behind every response to Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie’s recent remarks about transwomen was the message that people were not only outraged with the Nigerian novelist and feminist, but disappointed in her as well. In the Los Angeles Times, Michael Schaub wrote that she “angered” the transgender community. Paper Magazine explained that “People aren’t reacting well” to her comments. Raquel Willis said she “gaslighted” transgender people only to “strip them of their womanhood” at The Root. Unapologetic Feminism characterized Adichie’s comments as revealing her “lack of sophistication” as a thinker. (It couldn’t possibly be that she had a valid, albeit different, opinion about womanhood — she had to be confused or stupid.)

Most outlets who decried Adichie’s comments were dishonest in their representation of the conflict, almost exclusively reproducing the opinions of people who disagreed with her. By excluding the notable support and solidarity she received from numerous men and women, Adichie’s opinion was presented as an aberration (therefore more condemnable) and more isolated than it is.

And what could a renowned feminist writer have said to cause such (apparent) indignation? In an interview with Channel 4 News, Adichie was asked:

“Does it matter how you arrived at being a woman? …If you’re a transwoman who grew up identifying as a man, who grew up enjoying the privileges of being a man, does that take away from becoming a woman?”

She replied:

“I think the whole problem of gender in the world is about our experiences. It’s not about how we wear our hair or whether we have a vagina or a penis. It’s about the way the world treats us, and I think if you’ve lived in the world as a man with the privileges that the world accords to men and then sort of change gender, it’s difficult for me to accept that then we can equate your experience with the experience of a woman who has lived from the beginning as a woman and who has not been accorded those privileges that men are. What I am saying is that gender is not biology, gender is sociology.”

The intensity of the backlash led Adichie to issue a longer response which granted her critics far more empathy and thoughtfulness than she herself was awarded by them. She explained that to acknowledge male privilege “is not to say that transwomen did not undergo difficulties as boys. But they did not undergo those particular difficulties specific to being born female, and this matters because those experiences shape how adult women born female interact with the world.” At the Women of the World festival, she elaborated, saying that to conflate the experiences of transwomen with women’s experiences was “dishonest”:

“I don’t believe that we should insist on saying that the person who is born female and has experienced life as a woman has the same experiences of somebody who has transitioned as an adult. I don’t think it’s the same thing. I just don’t think it has to be the same thing in order for us to be supportive.”

Adichie’s clarifications did not abate critics who would only be satisfied with a full retraction and obedient adoption of the kind of modern newspeak that demands we accept transwomen as literal women.

The uproar over Adichie’s comments represents two distinct issues: 1) The belief that only transwomen should be the arbiters of what womanhood is, and 2) The practice of elevating certain women as icons, only to virulently pull them down once they express an opinion those who tokenized her disapprove of.

As for the first argument, some people argue that transwomen cannot have male privilege because they don’t identify as men. At Everyday Feminism, trans writer Kai Cheng Thom argues, “We cannot receive male privilege — because male privilege is by definition something that only men and masculine-identified people can experience.” But this assumes that for a structural force (such as systemic privilege) to affect you, you must identify with it. By that logic, women and girls must identify with our oppression in order for it to affect us. (This argument also begs the question: what are trans people transitioning from or to?)

Transgender actress Laverne Cox made a similar argument, tweeting:

“I was talking to my twin brother today about whether he believes I had male privilege growing up. I was a very feminine child though I was assigned male at birth. Femininity did not make me feel privileged.”

But privilege doesn’t ask anyone if they want it, so it doesn’t t matter whether you agree with it or “believe” in it. Privilege perpetuates itself by remaining in the background, invisible to those who have it. This means that being able to not notice your own privilege is in itself a sign of privilege. To say, “I didn’t feel privileged,” despite being part of a privileged class of people, speaks to its omnipresent power.

And how do we challenge systemic oppression if we deny it exists? As writer and scholar Claire Heuchan points out:

“If trans womanhood is synonymous with womanhood, the hallmarks of women’s oppression cease to recognizable as women’s experiences. If we cannot acknowledge the privileges those recognized and treated as male hold over their female counterparts, we cannot acknowledge the existence of patriarchy.”

We live in a world where millions of girls are aborted before they are even born simply because their ultrasound showed a vulva instead of a penis. Rita Banerji, director of the 50 Million Missing campaign, is right that the “mass extermination of women” is a human rights crisis. This is a world where drugs and treatments for serious health issues, like heart attacks, are designed with male physiology in mind, leading to faulty diagnosis and even death for women. Indeed, there has been a systemic undervaluing of women in the medical field when it comes to the way heart disease affects female biology, resulting in more risk and death for women. Women are also more likely to be injured in car accidents because crash test dummies have long been designed based on men’s bodies, not women’s (this is only just beginning to be addressed now, and “male” dummies are still the norm). We have tried pretending male and female bodies are the same, and it is women and girls who pay the price.

As Sarah Ditum argues, women cannot remain neutral on this issue because the battlefield is our bodies: “There’s no way to avoid picking a side when you yourself are the disputed territory.” Suggesting women should not discuss or acknowledge differences between females and transwomen  in order to avoid being labeled “controversial” (or worse) is just another way patriarchy demands submissiveness and silence from women in exchange for a false sense of security.

In a world where being born with a vagina carries distinct material oppressions, the idea that these dynamics depend on a person’s inner feelings is callous and insulting to women and girls as it assumes that, by identifying as something else, we can avoid oppression.

Cox says that “intersectionality complicates male and cis privilege,” but shouldn’t it also complicate the male privilege of transwomen? If intersectionality is to be applied to all axes of both privilege and oppression (as I believe it should), why should trans identities be exempted?

Willis, a writer and trans activist, is among those who believes Adichie simply shouldn’t speak about transwomen at all, tweeting:

“Chimamanda being asked about trans women is like Lena Dunham being asked about Black women. It doesn’t work. We can speak for ourselves”

But Adichie was asked a question about womanhood, as a woman — why shouldn’t she have say?

In this statement, Willis implies that transwomen should not only get to define womanhood for themselves but also for females. But if transwomen are the only ones allowed to talk about womanhood, what can women talk about? Whose narratives are women allowed to tell?

“Liberation is always in part a storytelling process,” Rebecca Solnit wrote recently in The Guardian. “A free person tells her own story.” In other words, women’s ability to speak about their own lives, bodies, and experiences is deeply political.

“A valued person lives in a society in which her story has a place. Violence against women is often against our voices and our stories. It is a refusal of our voices, and of what a voice means: the right to self-determination, to participation, to consent or dissent; to live and participate, to interpret and narrate.

Who is heard and who is not defines the status quo. Those who embody it, often at the cost of extraordinary silences with themselves, move to the centre; those who embody what is not heard, or what violates those who rise on silence, are cast out.”

Women’s opinions are constantly policed because opinions are part of the public sphere and, under a patriarchal system, women are to remain in the private sphere. (The notion that someone should “come and fix” Ngozi Adichie’s politics speaks to this policing.)

Why was the backlash against Adichie so swift? Why portray her opinions as beyond the pale and “phobic” when they are anything but? Because she had been placed on a pedestal by progressives and, in voicing an unwelcome opinion, deviated from third wave groupthink. Worse yet, she had expressed views shared by second wave, radical feminists.

When Adichie became a household name in the West, she was a young woman of colour from Nigeria who used her voice to galvanize the urgency of diverse voices and perspectives. A worthy cause, for sure, but one that has been manipulated to foment divisions within the women’s movement worldwide.

Third wave feminism in the U.S. contends that, until its inception, feminism wholly ignored the diversity of women’s lives and experiences. This is bullshit. As a Dominican woman who has studied the history of the women’s movement, in my own country as well as in Latin America and the Caribbean, I find this idea predictably short-sighted and U.S.-centric. The women’s rights movement has existed for over a century, and extends across countries and time periods. It is not accurate to assume that until the term “intersectional feminism” came along in the U.S., the women’s movement cared only about the needs and concerns of white, Western, upper-class women.

But even if we were to look only at the history of the women’s movement in the U.S., we’d learn that the first wave began as the result of a fire that consumed the Triangle Shirtwaist Company, killing over 100 working class, immigrant women. The fire led women to understand the peril and powerlessness of their lives without political rights and solidarity, as an oppressed class, which was pivotal to the suffragette movement. Similarly, feminism and the labour movement have collaborated (and dealt with conflict) for over a century and, within this struggle, feminists have often been the ones to push for more inclusion. Some of the most renowned feminist scholars and thinkers nowadays, like bell hooks and Angela Davis, became central to the movement during the second wave, precisely because they centered and criticized race relations within the movement. By erasing the contributions of women of colour from the feminist movement prior to the advent of the third wave, we are doing exactly what third wavers claim to criticize: ignoring the contributions of working class women and women of colour.

The point of drawing a line between what third wavers call “white feminism” and “intersectional feminism” is to both tarnish the accomplishments of the movement throughout history and to increase divisions, hostility, and infighting among feminists today. Young feminists, afraid of being seen as “problematic,” are taught by the third wave to reject and denounce their foremothers without even reading or understanding their work. Within this, the term “white feminism” became a catch-all term for misogynist attacks that have long been leveled against feminists, only this time masked as social justice.

Intersectionality is a theory developed in 1989 by black feminist scholar and lawyer Kimberlé Crenshaw in her essay, “Demarginalizing the intersection of race and sex: A Black feminist critique of anti-discrimination doctrine, feminist theory, and antiracist politics” to address the way being both black and female affect women in the U.S. legal system. Crenshaw defined “white feminism” as “the creation of a consciousness that was distinct from and in opposition to that of white men” and “the failure to embrace the complexities of compoundedness.”

Intersectionality is a powerful tool of analysis but it has been turned into a ubiquitous term commonly used in ways that have little to do with the original intention of the concept. Jess Martin explains, “Millennials often use the term to denounce anyone who explores topics or holds political views they don’t like, particularly any critique of queer theory’s definition of gender as a chosen and individual identity, sexualization, objectification, and/or the sex industry.”

Contemporary feminism in the U.S. seems to believe it needs witches and idols in order to differentiate itself from former waves and become mainstream. The witches — who are smeared, lied about and no-platformed in an effort to silence them — are movement women who identify with the second wave and radical feminist ideas. The idols are women like Adichie, who possess the identities (she is a young, woman of colour from outside the U.S.) that third wave discourse demands at the moment, in order to present itself as more progressive and legitimate than the ongoing grassroots feminist movement. In a moment when identity politics matters more than material reality, this set of identities was seen by progressives as an opportunity to tokenize Adichie.

Alas, in a manner familiar to anyone who has been tokenized based on their identity, the second this bright, powerful, thoughtful woman conveyed an idea that was unpopular, she was draggedpositioned as just another privileged woman who doesn’t know what she is talking about and needs to be “educated.” She was labelled a “TERF” and a “white feminist” herself; her views were presented as not just wrong, but also dangerous.

This, at the very least, proves that “white feminism” was never meant to be an analysis of race or class. It was always intended to smear and divide women into the categories of Woke Feminist/Un-Woke Feminist. Like the term “cis,” as Rebecca Reilly-Cooper argues, it is a linguistic tool meant “to ensure female people have no way to describe ourselves that doesn’t cast us as oppressors.”

Luckily, there is someone who already taught us how to navigate backlash as a result of controversial opinions: Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie herself. I don’t know if the intense bullying she has been subjected to recently will force Adichie to recant her heresy — I hope not… But if she needs some comfort, she can revisit her own speech at the 2015 Girls Write Now awards ceremony:

“I think that what our society teaches young girls, and I think it’s also something that’s quite difficult for even older women — self-professed feminists — to shrug off, is that idea that likability is an essential part of you, of the space you occupy in the world, that you’re supposed to twist yourself into shapes to make yourself likable, that you’re supposed to hold back sometimes, pull back, don’t quite say, don’t be too pushy, because you have to be likable.

And I say that’s bullshit.

So what I want to say to young girls is forget about likability. If you start off thinking about being likable you are not going to tell your story honestly, because you are going to be so concerned with not offending… And that’s going to ruin your story, so forget about likability. And also the world is such a wonderful, diverse, and multifaceted place that there’s somebody who’s going to like you; you don’t need to twist yourself into shapes.”

Adichie is not here to be anyone’s token Woke Idol. She doesn’t exist to ensure other people’s comfort. She is not a blank space for others to project their ideas on to. She is here to speak her truth, even if some don’t want to hear it.

In a moment when U.S.-centered third wave feminism resembles groupthink more than a political movement, Adichie’s position (and her decision to stand by it amidst furor) is a rare display of bravery.

Through watching Adichie withstand this firestorm, more women will learn how to resist.

Raquel Rosario Sanchez
Raquel Rosario Sanchez

Raquel Rosario Sanchez is a writer from the Dominican Republic. Her utmost priority in her work and as a feminist is to end violence against girls and women. Her work has appeared in several print and digital publications both in English and Spanish, including: Feminist Current, El Grillo, La Replica, Tribuna Feminista, El Caribe and La Marea. You can follow her @8rosariosanchez where she rambles about feminism, politics, and poetry.

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  • Cassandra

    This is so important and so well-written, Ms. Sanchez. You and Meghan and Susan and other guest writers here are killin’ it.

    The first comment under the VenturesAfrica story (written by a black woman in defense of a black woman) is from what looks like a white woman from Oklahoma State University. Take a deep breath and read it, folks. This is the kind of blind stupidity and lack of historical knowledge that third wave/queer theory “feminism” represents. The sad part is that she thinks she’s on the “right side of history.”

    How did we get to the point where white women like her are calling other people “white feminists” and pontificating on articles written by black women, telling them that they are horrible people for knowing that penis is male and that males are socialized male and all the privilege than entails no matter how they feel on the inside? Oppression is structural and comes from the outside folks, that was the entire point of CNA’s comment. Gender Identity is just one giant victim-blaming reversal cluster fuck. FOR FUCK’S SAKE, LIBFEMS! GET YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES!!!!!! Stop letting MALES define female out of existence while they tell us to shut-up about our own bodies. How can you be so goddamned dumb?

    We have a moment here, and we should all use it. I’m carrying my “Sisters not Cis-ters” bag tomorrow. It’s lavender so people will think I’m a lesbian and look at all the fucks I give!

  • Lucia Lola

    Brilliant essay.

  • Max Dashu

    Excellent points! and well-written. Thank you.

  • Novo

    Great essay!! What was really strange to me is that people think this public intellectual is supposed to affirm their feelings instead of challenging them to think deeper. I don’t know why they don’t understand that she’s not supposed to be their mommy. It’s also odd how these woke Twitter hipsters can’t wrap their head around the idea that maybe with all her life experience she might be wiser than them. I’m in my 20s but I hate how they treat older women.

    Some of the least acerbic responses literally just said that she was ‘hurtful’ (!!!) . Some of the responses to the Natasha Vargas-Cooper essay said that too especially the response essay in New Republic. Their only counter-argument was just that she was ‘cruel’ and ‘mean’ and ‘hurtful’. The greatest crime a woman can commit…hurting male feelings.

    It had never occurred to me before how.. gendered the call-out culture is.

  • Rachael

    Fabulous article! I think Adichie was really brave to post her clarification because it can’t just be written off as a “one-off” comment she made without thinking. The backlash must be terrible. I hope she knows many, many women support her views on this.

    I also really like her speech re.likeability. Bang on! You can’t be authentic and also be likeable (in the female stereotypical sense of the word). I’m fed up of being likeable because it means being silent, and in fact I have a hell of a lot I want to say.

  • ✧ʕ̢̣̣̣̣̩̩̩̩·͡˔·ོɁ̡̣̣̣̣̩̩̩̩✧

    Let’s post this everywhere

  • Jax Gullible

    Excellent work! Thank you for one that I will send to all the liberals women busily building a fence to sit on

  • anne cameron

    Spot on! I agree with this young woman, and I am awed by her bravery.
    Too many “third wave” women need to get off the bandwagon and stop ass-kissing. Caitlyn Jenner is NOT my choice for “woman of the year” ! She’s the one who said the hardest part of being a woman is deciding which dress to wear. Tell that to the survivors of genital mutilation.

    • Zuzanna Smith

      Bruce Jenner is not now, nor will he ever be a “she”.

      • Marla

        Oh, but hold on now. Caitlyn here “empowered” the Third-wave by pissing in a toilet in Trump Tower. I mean, what a sacrifice when you consider he’s so used to pissing all over the gold plated one he has at home.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yeah it’s all about virtue-signalling. You ‘call out’ someone *else* as ‘racist,’ or ‘transphobic’ in order to assure those around you that you are not those things. It’s a way to do ‘politics’ without actually having to do anything.

  • Meghan Murphy

    The liberals who are trashing her now also only really paid attention to her because of Beyonce. Their ‘politics’ are centered around celebrity culture and wannabe twitter celebrities (i.e. people who’ve managed to gain a lot of followers, but haven’t necessary contributed anything of substance to the feminist movement), so it’s no wonder the things they say are never rooted in material reality and are so ahistorical.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Ridiculous, too, because so often that direction is hurled at women who are far more ‘educated’ w/r/t feminist theory, who have been in the movement for some time, who hold graduate degrees, who work on the front line, etc. It doesn’t *actually* mean ‘educate yourself’ (as the people who demand this are generally totally ignorant to second wave activism, women’s history, feminist theory, what’s actually happening in the grassroots movement, etc), it just means, ‘accept my dogma uncontested.’

    • Zuzanna Smith

      Yup, it means drink the kool-aid.

      • Melaniexxxx

        so similar to anti-vaxxers screaming at medical professionals to ‘educate yourselves!!!!”

  • Meghan Murphy

    Telling women to ‘sit down’ w/r/t discussions of womanhood and creating divisions among women is not a progressive response, no matter what third wave feminism tells you. The conversation and issue Adichie was addressing is one that affects all women. You, as a male, must relish being able to barge into conversations about women and tell women to sit down and shut up.

    • FierceMild

      Right? What a complete canoe this dood is.

    • genny

      Hey, why wouldn’t he? He already loves barging into our safe spaces.Barging into our conversations is the next logical step.

  • Purple Barnacle

    A woman is an adult human female. Any other definition will either be circular (“a woman is anyone who says they’re a woman”) or rely heavily on stereotypes (female brain, female essence). I think male privilege is only too apparent in transwomen: in the way they dismiss the concerns of women, in the way they demand access to our spaces and bodies, in the way they threaten us for pointing out the material reality of our sexed bodies and the socialisation that is imposed on us as a result. There is nothing transphobic in what Chimamanda said. There are clear differences between women and transwomen, and demanding that women ignore their reality, with a constant flow of threats and abuse, is nothing but gaslighting.

    As for kids transitioning early, we’ll have to wait and see. What we know is that most of them will end up being sterilised for not conforming to arbitrary stereotypes, and we know that Lupron has long-term health effects on the women who took it.

  • Rachael

    Who the hell do you think you are? You come here and tell women to shut up and make out your opinion holds some sort of extreme weight. Look at your language! We “MUST” do this and that (in caps no less!) – as if somehow your dictating to us doesn’t reflect your male socialisation? Wake the hell up.

  • springazure

    Thanks, Ms. Sanchez, for standing up for Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. I just finished reading her book “Africanah” and look forward to other work by her. I find it disheartening that women (no matter how we got there) are so willing to cruelly trash someone for expressing her opinion. The movement is not going to get anywhere if we must adhere to an inflexible ideology and cannot disagree. Especially now, we need all the support we can give each other in resisting the reactionary forces unleashed by the Trump administration and the fallout from that.

    Third wave feminists would do well, as you so clearly point out, to better understand the history of the first and second waves and the sacrifices and achievements made by those activists. And, to better understand the history of women in the Civil Rights movement–women were crucial leaders but were overshadowed by men who got the credit for the women’s achievements, and furthermore faced difficulties within the movement based on their gender, including sexual harassment.

    These issues are complicated. I wish we could take a deep breath and listen to each other with empathy instead of distrust.

    • Marla

      “Third wave feminists would do well, as you so clearly point out, to better understand the history of the first and second waves and the sacrifices and achievements made by those activists.”

      Third-wave feminist history is about themselves and only themselves. It’s a bullshit plastic culture bubble of self-absorption. History to the most of them is nothing more than what transmale going under what sexual dial-a-select alphabet soup identity politic they choose that day. The Suffrage movement means zero to them other than it’s a line in a Bowie song and how that’s “kwel” because “Bowie was trans way before his time.” Achievement to them is an unethical animal testing cosmetic company targeting transmales with multi-million dollar contracts. Third-wave feminism is anti-human and above all else, anti-women. Adichie didn’t suffer any backlash. Oh no, what she went through does not surprise me in the least and that was to be excommunicated by telling a community that life is not about always getting your way simply because you identify with something.

  • cday881@gmail.com

    Yeah, ask women to abandon their means of recognizing patriarchy, that should help.

  • Melanie

    Transwomen can’t speak to the experience of women. That’s all Adichie said. She doesn’t need to be ‘collected’ by anybody. She was born female in a world that oppresses the female sex and she’s entitled to speak about her experience of that. That’s intersectionality for you.

  • Melanie

    Isn’t it odd that when it comes time for males to ‘check their privilege’ in intersectional feminism suddenly intersectionality doesn’t count. If sex is not an intersection then why is it called ‘feminism’ at all?

  • Zuzanna Smith

    I could go to Africa right now and look into another woman’s eyes and understand her issues around being female. Bruce Jenner could not. Jazz has always been treated extra special, not at all like a regular girl would be treated, and I’m pretty sure you get that.

  • FierceMild

    Umm, it’s the fact that transwomen are male that makes them not women. That’s all.

  • Melody Williams-Daniels

    I think a large part of the problem is that we’ve agreed to refer to surgically altered, gender non-conforming males as “women”. That’s why these males feel comfortable dictating the direction of feminism or browbeating ACTUAL women into submission for daring to dissent.

    Your comment smacks of male entitlement.

  • Melody Williams-Daniels

    It’s very curious, isn’t it? White males can now identify as women and accuse black females of oppressing them.

    I’d laugh if it weren’t so infuriating.

    • snapcracklepop

      The fact that so many people can’t see this is astonishing, it makes feel like I’m going mad!

    • renny

      This is why no Black woman should in any way, shape or form be affiliated with white feminism…this is what it gets you.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    “Unabashed terfs” That’s a t-shirt waiting to happen!!

  • Wren

    most of us here aren’t afraid of being direct.
    transwomen aren’t real women.

    • Morag999

      It’s so funny, you know, how we couldn’t possibly be any more direct about the fact that they’re men. Yet, many new commenters will still come along accusing us of “implying” or of blowing a “dog whistle.” Ha. Despite the clarity and bluntness of our speech, their perception is that we’re being all sneaky about it. That they’re onto us. That they’ve caught us.

      It’s like, the only speech they’ve bothered to rehearse is the “gotcha!” so they can’t really afford to hear our unequivocal and unapologetic rejection of gender identities. I suppose they’re more used to liberal feminists immediately apologizing for thought crimes and turning themselves inside-out to deny any signs of latent terfiness.

  • Wren

    i’m confused. what does male privilege have to do with demonic possession. like, what is your point.

    • Tired feminist

      His “point” is that male privilege is all in our pretty little heads.

  • Wren

    i’m not here for transwomen. i’m not here for inclusivity. i’m only here for biological women.
    why does being wrong feel so right?

  • midwifemama

    Jazz Jennings is dripping with male privilege, as evidenced by his assertion that he plans to use his sister’s body as an incubator. Patriarchy is the global system where male people exploit female people for reproductive and other labor. By saying he plans to use his sister’s womb for his reproductive desires (a process that could wreck his sister’s emotional and physical health and maybe even take her life), Jazz is demonstrating male privilege under patriarchy. http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/31/gender-patriarchy-and-all-that-jazz/

  • Cassandra

    It really really really makes no fucking sense. But come on y’all, don’t you deep down love knowing that we are in fact *not* the ignoramuses*? It’s like knowing a big juicy secret.

    *Surely a protective device against going completely mad in the Mad Hatter world we’re currently witness to.

  • Step

    Wonderful to read, and to find Femist Current in the last month. I hope CNA stands her ground, and chooses “not to be liked” by third wavers who abhor her. MtT are not women, and do not experience their world as women, nor their physiology as women. Women, for the sake of ourselves and for our children must not be complacent. (As a teacher of adolescents, I won’t be silenced any longer. Growth stunting chemicals and hormonal treatments for dysphoric children and teens are sterilizing them, and guaranteeing them a life on chemicals. And a great majority of them will outgrow their dysphoria. Why are doctors doing this? Another topic, indeed.)

  • shy virago

    Raquel, as always you go ‘mas al fondo de la noticia’ and get to the bottom of things! I don’t like how intersectionality is being used right now, and you gave me a way to explain it.

    One thing I want to point out about transgenderism is not only the loss of safe space, like bathrooms and locker rooms, but
    scholarships. If a man (i.e. transwoman) can say, by law, that he indentifies as female, he may be eligible for
    scholarships meant for women! Women’s Liberation Front in California has been trying to sue the US government in their definition of ‘female’ to stop this from happening.

  • FierceMild

    What they lack is exactly what the author of this piece (and Ms. Murphy, Ms. Cox, etc) have; clear-headed courage.

    Sometimes when I read these pieces I think that these are the women whose voices will bring us freedom, whose words will reverberate through the ages. These are the women my daughter will quote to her daughter. The contrast just seems so clear.

    • Cassandra

      I agree completely.

  • FierceMild

    Oh fuck right off. White women can and should stand beside, behind and with black women. That does not require them to shut up. Transwomen are men and THEY need to “sit the hell down for this one” because they’re speaking for a group they have nothing in common with.

  • TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsYoya

    I’m not sure you get the concept of male privilege or how it works.

  • TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsYoya

    The fact this has to be explained is astounding.

    • Cassandra

      And how.

  • You know, while Adichie may be right that (pre-transition) transwomen grow up with different experiences from their cis counterparts, she still is a fallible human being who can make mistakes like the rest of us. The vast majority of human beings on this planet, even if they are born into certain marginalized demographics, still belong to at least one or more groups that are relatively privileged. So if we’re to be honest, we ALL have privilege to check. I undoubtedly benefit from straight, white, and male privilege for example, yet I am autistic and therefore don’t benefit from neurotypical privilege. It might be unfair to tear Adichie to pieces for having privilege to check, but that shouldn’t mean she doesn’t have that privilege to check at all.

    • Morag999

      What’s the point of these clichéd statements about Adichie being a “fallible human being who can make mistakes like the rest of us.” Yeah, you’re correct, we’re all fallible and we all make mistakes sometimes. So what? What you’re saying here is generalized to the point of meaninglessness.

      Is this your squishy, cowardly way of saying that Adichie, a black Nigerian female, enjoys privilege at the expense of white males? White males who claim they have the right to force other people to perceive them as women? If that’s what you really want to say, then say it, and face the music.

      On the other hand, if you think it’s a ridiculous lie to cast her as an oppressor of white males, then don’t write mealy-mouthed sentences such as: “It might be unfair to tear Adichie to pieces for having privilege to check, but that shouldn’t mean she doesn’t have that privilege to check at all.” Far as I can tell, this sentence means that you still agree she ought to be torn to pieces, but torn to pieces in a nicer way, and for non-specified reasons.

    • m_chica

      She was asked a question in an interview and she responded with an honest answer…she wasn’t going on a public tyrade about the issue. She answered a question honestly.

  • Ms Gribbly

    Thank you, Ms. Sanchez! Thank you for standing up for what is right. We need your rational, feminist viewpoint! Yes, yes, yes!

  • Tired feminist

    What is a woman, Sappho?
    Can you answer this simple question without circular definitions and without stereotypes?

  • Tired feminist

    That would only be true if there were no evidence of male privilege in the real world.

  • Onaolu

    This was quite an enlightening read. Kudos.

  • Tired feminist

    Hi Forth! A couple of questions for you:

    What is a woman?
    What is a man?
    How are babies made?
    What is feminism?
    What is intersectionality?

    Thanks!

  • China Fortson-Washington

    I just want to add to the discussion that Ms. Adichie is entitled to her opinion about womanhood. Whether it agress with what you precieve it should be, she still has a right to have her own personal opinion, just as you have the right to disagree with her. For those of you that put your expectations on her whose showing “priviliage” and because she does not live up to your expectations does not make her uneducated, dangerous or any of the other negative descriptors meant to define her.
    Must of Black women know, “Intersectionality is a powerful tool of analysis that has been turned into a ubiquitous term commonly used in ways that have little to do with the original intention of the concept coined by Kimberle Crenshaw in 1989. Intersectionality is the study of what Ms. Crenshaw contends are overlappingor intersecting social identities and relatedsystems of opperssion, domination, or discrimination.
    The term is often used to denounce anyone who explores topics or holds political views they don’t like, particularly any critique of queer theory’s definition of gender as a chosen and individual identity, sexualization, objectification, and/or the sex industry.

  • Melaniexxxx

    Perfection! Thank you for writing this, you are no doubt about to receive a slew of death threats and vitriol. It is SO, SO important that we do not lose our ability to critique male socialisation and the unique threat to women-born-women on a biological basis x

  • Fiona1933

    Beautiful Pity ‘Sappho’ will never read it. After all, that might mean she has to learn something.

  • Fiona1933

    How can you claim you have no male socialisation? Just look at how you express yourself. Look at you dictating to women, telling us when and how to speak. Look at the entitlement in your tone. Compare how you write with the actual women here.
    Stop telling women when they can speak. And stop using the word ‘cis’ Its a slur, its an insult, its men defining us again. We have a word. Its ‘women’. And you can stop saying ‘terfs’ as well. That word operates exactly like ‘witch’. Women called witches were first cast out of society and then subjected to violence…and thats what ‘terf’ does. Tell me, why do you have no such word for men? why are men permitted by the trans movement to keep defining their lives? Where are the men apologising for speaking of their own bodies…where are the men threatened with violence?

  • Fiona1933

    But in reality, its not like that. Read any article thats pro-trans, like in the New York Tines, then read the comments. They are nearly totally common sense. Nobody believes in a female penis.

  • Fiona1933

    Look at all the fucks I give!!

  • Meghan Murphy

    Q: What do you, the third wavers attacking Adichie, and the Trump Administration have in common?
    A: They all hate feminists

  • esuth

    Lol, people like you keep coming here to say this. You offer no evidence and expect us to change our minds. Look, you have a religious belief in gendered souls (or whatever you want to call it) that we don’t share. You can believe whatever you want! But please don’t expect everyone in the world to share your entirely faith-based unscientific opinion that women are people who wear high heels.

  • Step

    Trans identified males are not women.

  • Step

    Thank you CNA, FC, and Trump. MtTs clearly will shove women under the bus when it suits them, i.e., competing in women’s sports.

  • Tired feminist

    Your childhood shapes your personality for the rest of your life. Genital plastic surgery doesn’t give you a brand new brain. I can’t believe this has to be explained.

  • Meghan Murphy

    How does one identify as a male or female “internally?”

  • Meghan Murphy

    Oh Lucas. I got to this comment *after* responding to and approving another one of yours here. Grateful to find you being completely upfront about your misogyny, while lecturing feminists about how they’re doing it wrong.

  • Meghan Murphy

    They aren’t women. Males are not entitled to a voice in the feminist movement. And, no, women don’t need *more* humility, so they can move over, yet again, to let men speak. You are deeply confused about the aims of feminism.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I’m sorry to inform you, but the God is real. God is real God is real God is real God is real. If you don’t agree with me, you are a bigot.

    Do you realize this is what your argument amounts to? You aren’t making an actual argument, you are just stating dogma as though it is truth, and accusing those who don’t parrot the dogma back to you of being ‘bigots.’

    • Lucas

      What are you talking about? This is not dogma, it’s lived experience. And if you choose to use bigoted language unapologetically to make your argument rather than listen when trans women ask others to stop invalidating their identity then hey, guess what, i’m gonna assume you’re a fucking bigot! What a weird concept.

      • Meghan Murphy

        believes it. What if I told you I was Indigenous and that I’d chosen to live my life as an Indigenous person, therefore this was my lived experience, and you had to accept it. Would you be obligated to accept that I am Indigenous?

        Also, I’m curious to know what language I’ve used that is ‘bigoted’?

      • Cassandra

        Nobody ever has any obligation to validate anybody’s “identity.” Zero. None. Zilch. Asking women to deny reality is abusive.

      • Alienigena

        “listen when trans women ask others to stop invalidating their identity”

        Well, maybe I’ll listen and defer ‘when hell freezes over’ or individuals like you ‘stop committing femicide against biological females by supporting sex selective abortion’. Because that comment reflects the kind of histrionic nonsense that MtTs and their supporters are fond of spewing on a regular basis. Not acknowledging someone’s preferred pronouns is not the same as being targeted, as female fetuses and girls and women are for annihilation because of your genitalia either through sex selective abortion, or by being deprived of adequate nutrition, or being put in danger because of menstrual taboos, dying in childbirth (because neocons don’t support contraception or abortion), etc.

        Seriously. How many people on this blog have read a comment (on some media site) from some jag-off to the effect that if women want access to safe abortions they shouldn’t have anything negative to say about sex-selective abortions. Because abortion is abortion is abortion. Doesn’t matter that the practice is seriously skewing sex ratios in certain regions of the world. Sometimes the anti-female commenters suggest that the remaining women (those who are not aborted) are lucky because they will be sought after by men. No, they are not lucky. Reduced numbers of women in a society does not translate to increased status for women (as if women exist only to become wives for men, also assumes all women are heterosexual) but a greater likelihood that women (from neighboring countries) will be sexually trafficked for use by biological males.

        https://www.unfpa.org/sites/default/files/resource-pdf/regional_analysis.pdf

        http://www.economist.com/node/15636231

  • Step

    Go to 4th Wave Now site. Mind blowing tragedy.

  • Cassandra

    That may have been part of the context out of which intersectionality emerged, but the actual term (not the idea) came out of a court case, didn’t it?

    Not sure why you’re choosing to jump on Ms. Sanchez. She wasn’t claiming to speak for black American women. If all of us had to mention everybody else every time we ever talked about anything nothing would ever have a single-minded purpose and we’d be reading essays so mind-numbingly incoherent we’d rather be in Times Square on New Year’s eve than read one more word of it.

    Oh wait, that’s what postmodern queer gender studies *is*! What a coincidence!

  • Step

    Interesting that the insult is “ignorant twat”. Degrading female genitals. Many trans activists often reference some part of female anatomy when insulting women. It’s misogyny.

  • FierceMild

    So…they’re still male.

  • Cassandra

    This has been going on for a while now but it’s not easy to find information. This “movement” is in large part being driven by the pharma companies. Like for instance: Johnson & Johnson owns Clean ‘n Clear. Any coincidence they had Jazz Jennings as a spokesperson?

    The blog 4th Wave Now is an excellent place to start. It was started by a mother who had to deal with her daughter claiming transhood. (The reasons girls do it are different than the reasons males do it but that’s another subject.)

  • FierceMild

    Wanting transwomen to use their own facilities for changing/bathing/using the toilet Is not “enforced discrimination.” Using sex-based spaces when genitalia are involved is common sense, not a one way ticket to Si-bleedin’-beria! Get a clue and a sense of proportion.

  • Cassandra

    Oh stop the bullshit.

  • FierceMild

    Why do they need to be using their penises in women’s bathrooms for that?

    Also, thanks for using sexist slurs for female genitalia (which no transwomen posses) it makes your allegiance to male supremacy apparent for those who might otherwise have been distracted.

  • Sandra7075

    You are blowing up 7 trans killed but sweeping under the rug how many more women are killed just for a sympathy grab. Many of the ones killed are black and trans. There is also a hidden prostitution going on that gets silenced to support this “Sex worker positive” myth to make prostitution out to be cool and trendy. Working the streets gets many killed. Biological women have every right to be concerned and how the trans activists treat women with death threats, harassment, trying to then turn around and get people to feel sorry for them just doesn’t make me give a damn. Women are the ones being abused over this gender identity cult. Many of these people pushing for gender identity were outed as sex offenders and child rapists. Including that man that raped his stepdaughter, went to prison, came out with a new name and gender identity to start TERF tracker to harass any woman that didn’t sip the kool-aid. Once he was exposed, he then took a step down off of his platform as an advocate.

    This is a male rights campaign. So that men can push women down as if women haven’t been pushed down and erased out of history enough. You are just using women knowing that women can be emotionally manipulated easier than men also knowing that men tend to get violent more so than women. Go stick you male rights activism elsewhere. Gender identity is a cult and a farce.

    The vast majority of “trans” will NEVER FULLY TRANSITION meaning that movement is more in line with men that just want to exploit women and get a free pass as a minority group. Most of the ones doing this are white males. Oppression isn’t a badge stupid!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWTEbqynUVk

  • FierceMild

    Transwomen are male regardless of their willingness to recognize that biological reality at any point in their lives. If I believed myself to be Napolean for my whole life it wouldn’t make me Napolean.

  • FierceMild

    Interestingly the exact same percentage as for homosexual youth suicide…it’s almost like gender itself is an oppressive idea that ought to be gotten rid of so people can just live and love in their bodies with their own personalities regardless of their sex.

  • Cassandra

    Oh dear. I hear they’re developing a vaccine against gender studies pomo zombie MRA brain, so cheer up! Maybe you can be part of the trials! But only if you have a male brain! I heard it can kill female brains but I won’t say that because there’s no such thing as a female so how can there be a female brain? and I don’t want to sound like a truly excellent real female.

  • Thank you so much for this.

  • FierceMild

    It’s masculinity, and the attendant violence imperative, that lay the groundwork for murder. Not feminists. Trans ideology whole-heartedly embraces gender stereotypes and perpetuates the suffering and oppression of themselves and of all women.

  • FierceMild

    Transwomen are men that’s why they don’t get a voice in feminism. Acknowledging the realities of biological sex doesn’t invalidate your existence as a person, just as a member of a biological class to which you do not belong anyway. Even the people willing to validate your gender identity don’t actually believe that biological sex is a matter of inner feelings. They’re just trying to be nice and polite.

  • Tired feminist

    What are you doing here, Lucas? Honest question.

  • FierceMild

    So you think women who don’t agree with you should perform obviously repellent and degrading sex-acts? Gotcha.

  • FierceMild

    How about trans people stop trying to hijack feminism and repurpose the work of women to their own ends? Do your own damn figuring out, you lazy misogynist.

  • midwifemama

    Actually the main distinction between MTTs and women is that women are oppressed globally on the basis of reproductive capacity. Women in every country of the world are state regulated breeding stock, with degrees of variation. No country allows women full autonomy in reproductive decision making.

    When male politicians debate whether or not women should be forced to bear rapists’ babies, they are certainly not talking about transwomen. When Boko Haram and Daesh kidnap women as rape and breeding slaves, they are kidnapping those people specifically because they assume they have vaginas and uteri. When the former Romanian regime banned all abortion and established menstrual policing squads, they were not concerned about gender identity, they were policing people of the female sex.

    It infuriates me that the men’s rights movement and queer theory have been so successful in convincing so many people that female biology does not exist as an axis of oppression. Female biology is the world’s biggest axis of oppression. All over the world, male people exploit female people for reproductive labor; this is the very basis of patriarchy. The males who call themselves transwomen will NEVER experience this exploitation while all female people all over the world experience it to some degree.

  • FierceMild

    Hmmmmmmm, I wonder how you know which is which though? I mean, even just for the purposes of conversations like this one, how are you making that distinction?

    Oh wait, I know! Transwomen are male, that’s how you tell them apart from women!

  • FierceMild

    May I quibble with brava?

  • FierceMild

    Heeheeeheeeee!!! That made me laugh so hard!

  • FierceMild

    And don’t forget being totally fine with being ‘champions’ in women’s sports as well as taking accolades and awards reserved for women.

  • Tired feminist

    I see you learned to perform masculinity quite convincingly, but that won’t turn you male.

  • FierceMild

    Dude, that’s not feminism.

  • Lucia Lola

    *points and laughs*

  • Step

    A doctor Identified you as female at birth. You assigned masculinity to yourself.

  • Cassandra

    Do you have any idea how fucking stupid you sound?

    We aren’t bullied because we’re “feminine.” We’re bullied because we’re of the female sex.

    We WILL NOT convert to your insane religion.

  • Cassandra

    Female is not an assignment or identity. It is a biological reality.

  • FierceMild

    Also this blog:
    http://gendercriticaldad.blogspot.com/?m=1
    Has a lot of information about the transitioning of children.

  • Cassandra

    Having a period isn’t meaningful or a commonality because not everbody’s mother could possibly get drunk and stand on a table? How about the possibility of pregnancy? Because you know that’s what can happen after you get your period, right? Is that not meaningful?

    You are a dishonest misogynist patriarchal fucking asshole.

  • FierceMild

    Nicely delineated.

  • Cassandra

    I have no idea what you just said and I’m pretty sure you don’t either.

  • Cassandra

    There’s no such thing as “cis” you asshole MRA. We don’t ascribe to gender theology here and we never will.

  • Cassandra

    “Cis” is you caving to trans cult pressure. “Cis” is you saying that women “identify” with their oppression.

    Stop.

    • Fouraces

      To me cis means ‘not trans’ and ‘trans’ denotes someone with a high level of gender dysphoria. I’m pretty sure most people who aren’t transtrenders and ‘non-binaries’ understand these terms this way.

  • Cassandra

    Men LOVE doing it.

  • esuth

    Who is trying to murder you here? And since you asked, by “transgender ideology” I mean the belief that human mammals can change their sex. You believe otherwise, and I’m not trying to change that. I can respect your religious beliefs without believing them myself.

  • esuth

    Maybe if your goddamned existence is so fragile it can’t withstand random internet feminists’ questions, it was never so solid to begin with!

  • lk

    Coming on a feminist site to tell a woman to suck a man’s dick is incredibly sexist and disrespectful.

  • lk

    “ya’ll could be debating about how to stop my trans sisters from being murdered on the streets.”

    We have actually discussed this many times—we have discussed the importance of putting an end to male violence, because it is men that are killing trans-identified people and women.

    “But it looks like ya’ll have more important things to do, like defending the purity of the label “FEMINIST”.

    The women on this site are doing much more than defending the label feminist–we are defending the rights of women and girls.

  • Cassandra

    A trans woman is always a trans woman (male). A woman is always a female.

  • Morag999

    ” … because ya’ll are still debating whether they’re women or not.”

    No, we’re not. If you think we’re debating whether or not males can be women, you’re not paying attention.

  • midwifemama

    Using words for female genitalia as insults against women is pure misogyny, Lucas. But I guess we should expect such woman-hating from someone who proudly identifies with patriarchal masculinity (aka male supremacy). You certainly appear to be enjoying being a member of the oppressor class. I, for one, am beyond disgusted by women who jump class, identify with our male oppressors, then come back into female spaces to tell women how to think and speak. Good work exemplifying the woman-hating ideology that is genderism, though. Gender exists to keep women in their place.

  • Cassandra

    We’re not “debating” whether trans women are women or not. It’s not up for debate because males aren’t females. This is biology and how 7.5 billion of us came to be here. So trans women should NOT have a voice in feminism because trans women are male. Feminism is a political movement, the goal of which is female liberation from male oppression, and that oppression is sex based—not feelings based, not identity based, not makeup based, not long hair based—sex based.

    And nobody’s invalidating your existence. You clearly exist; you’re here being an MRA and a general ass wipe so we know you exist. We just don’t have to validate *your* idea of your existence, especially when it is so fucking harmful to sex class female. We have zero obligation to cow-tow to your nonsense. Asking us to deny biological reality is abusive.

  • Cassandra

    You are so original and creative, so non-male. I’m in awe.

  • Cassandra

    What is a female?

  • Cassandra

    Male privilege in scare quotes. Nope, no MRAs here, peeps. Nothing to see, now move along.

    You know how it benefits you? Because everybody knows a trans woman is MALE.

  • Cassandra

    Who’s on First?

  • Cassandra

    This comment section gives me a flicker of hope, too. There are women commenting here for the first time. And for every one new woman who comments, I’d guess there are at least 10 more who are reading and agreeing but not ready to or not into commenting.

  • Fouraces

    Maybe actually learn basic things about feminism before demanding for feminism to take care of all problems for trans women.

  • Morag999

    ‘Still laughing at “crude genital inspection”‘

    Me, too! Crude genital inspections of newborn babies are amazingly accurate. Identity inspections, on the other hand …

  • lk

    “Exactly this. The reification of “feelings” above material reality – this widespread culture of outrageous narcissism – is extremely toxic and dangerous to any discourse on power.”

    Yes, not only feelings but individual experiences. If someone talks about rape culture, you’ll always see a woman comment and say something like “I’ve never been raped” as though her individual experience negates the existence of larger cultural and social norms.

    “In my experience it’s white men who FEEL the most victimized and their feelings of victimization are in response to any proposition of the cessation of their privilege.”

    So true! and You can’t forget the suffering of the wealth too..even though their wealth is usually gained from the hard labor of other people.

    What’s frustrating is that this nonsense is so present in both the current liberal and conservative ideologies, albeit in different ways. Conservatives make everything about individual actions and work ethic without acknowledging how systems and history impact the material reality of different classes of people (access to healthcare, education, housing, likelihood of being arrested and etc). Liberals are much better at discussing the reality of systemic inequalities, but have become committed to this idea of self-identification above all and accepting everything to avoid hurting people’s feelings.

    • Wren

      I agree and firmly believe that not all suffering is equal.

      IMO this is also partly the fault of modern psychology and a therapized society. Everything is relative and valid simply because an individual feels it. This has been used against me and is one reasons i gave up on therapy. According to certain counselors my experiences of exploitation were mine alone, and my analysis of the phenomena — which was vital to my recovery — was routinely dismissed because other women in prostitution claimed to have positive experiences. I don’t have time for that shit anymore.

      • FierceMild

        I’m glad you stopped paying to be gaslit. We don’t need that on top of everything else.

      • lk

        You’re right–all suffering is not equal…but now we live in a world where reverse racism and reverse sexism are considered equal to institutionalized racism against people of color and institutionalized sexism against women.

        “Everything is relative and valid simply because an individual feels it.”
        It’s an unfortunate that this viewpoint has become so popular in the the mental health care field because a great therapist can bring you back to reality, can help you figure out what constitutes healthy, rational feelings and actions.

        This idea that we have to respect/support what someone feels even if it is completely at odds with reality is kind of scary.

  • Morag999

    “I was assigned a 1200-word essay at birth”

    Wow. You had it rough. Me, I was assigned short readings and multiple-choice questions at birth.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Well, you said her opinion was based on ‘bigoted fallacy,’ so pretty close eh? Also, as I’m sure you know, this is common practice among transactivists and third wavers — to accuse people who disagree with gender identity dogma of being ‘bigots.’ ANYWAY. There is zero ‘evidence’ that transwomen are literal females, so I have no idea what you’re talking about.

  • Meghan Murphy

    No it’s not. Feminism is about liberating women from patriarchal oppression and male violence. I mean, I guess you can call yourself a feminist all you like, but no one who is actually a part of this movement is gonna believe you…

  • Tired feminist

    Absolutely right.

  • Tired feminist

    Transwomen are male. Males exist. Where’s the “invalidation of existence”?

  • Tired feminist

    How are you a feminist if you can’t even define woman?

  • Tired feminist

    Trans activists are men’s rights activists. Same ideology, same tactics. It’s fair to assume they have the same goals.
    Not all trans people are trans activists, sure, but those don’t bother us. I don’t care if men think they’re women, as long as they stay the fuck out of our spaces and don’t demand validation.

  • Tired feminist

    “And many of them by lovers, boyfriends, partners, and people they were dating so…”

    Evidence?

  • Tired feminist

    “Overwhelming evidence” of what, Lucas? You guys can’t even define “gender identity” (without using gender stereotypes) and want everyone to believe this anti-gay, misogynistic crap.

    • Cassandra

      Now biological reality is “bigoted mythology.” Who knew?

  • Tired feminist

    HAHAHAHAHA. It’s not “academic” to say men cannot turn into women.

  • Meghan Murphy

    How about when the whole world treats you like a stupid weak rapeable object because you’re female and inside you’re like, ‘I’m not a stupid rapeable object!’

    That’s gender. My sex doesn’t change. And just because your inside feelings don’t match the gendered way you are treated doesn’t change your sex either.

    You can’t ID your way out of sex.

  • Tired feminist

    Lol yeah, you were soooooooo oblivious to sexism that you decided to deny your femaleness.

  • anne

    Sam, you misread, she asked for evidence that WASN’T plucked out of some MRA’s ass.

  • Jamel Love

    Can we really say that a Trans Woman was always a woman though? To the degree that identity is ever-evolving and fluid, to the degree that conceptions and ideas of gender beyond the material differences between men and women also continue to change and evolve..along with the societal norms constructed from them. While I do not purport to make a purely biologically deterministic claim, nor to speak on experiences of being born a woman or a trans women (which I can never have as a hetero black male) I do think that we all agree there are no concrete conceptions of man/woman masculine/feminine, and trans womanhood stems from and can only exist in relation to the constructions of gendered identity. So, my point is if identity is fluid, how can one “always be” something constructed and ever-evolving.

  • Tired feminist

    All of us here were pissed as children because boys could do stuff we couldn’t. What’s the difference?

  • Tired feminist

    What’s a female?
    Again: no circular definitions. No ladybrainz.

  • Alienigena

    I agree that the ‘check your privilege’ movement should be consigned to the ‘poorly executed idea’ dumpster as it has been used by some very cynical people who are willfully blind to actual privilege (note the number of self-identified straight white men who come on FC to rant about white women / white feminism, feminism in general, women with some public stature (politicians, feminists, public academics). I do think that it is sad that the idea of social justice is so maligned given that it arose out of a legitimate desire to improve the lot of the most disadvantaged in society. Wasn’t social justice first maligned by the kind of MRAs and Gamergaters who overwhelming populate reddit and other socially regressive platforms?

  • Alienigena

    Well if Step’s comment is making you sick enough to projectile vomit up your internal organs, I say, “Good job”. Is there a continuum for how sick you feel possibly ranging from ‘a bit queasy’ to full-on ‘norovirus-induced projectile vomiting’?

  • Meghan Murphy

    A definition cannot be tautological. You can’t define a thing based on the thing you are defining. Like, you can’t define a grape by saying, “A grape is a grape.” That’s not a definition. What is a woman? What is a person who identifies as a woman identifying as?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Ha. Noooo, Wren won’t be leaving.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Why don’t you try answering the question instead of just insulting people? That would be more productive, don’t you think?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Considering that violence against women is perpetrated by men who are definitely not radical feminists, can you explain how feminist analysis of gender contributes to violence against trans-identified males?

    • m_chica

      Again…blaming women for the wrongdoings of men, instead of putting the blame where it belongs…in the hands of MEN.
      This is a tired old tale that I’ve heard way too many times.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “I’m referring to Step, who commented “MtT are not women, do not
    experience the world as women, nor their physiology as women.” This
    statement is bigoted, rooted in false assumptions, and completely denies
    and dismisses the lived experiences of trans people everywhere.”

    Can you explain why? You can’t simply make a statement and demand people accept the statement without providing a rational argument to support your statement.

    Why is it false equivalency to ask you if you would respect my identity as an Indigenous person, if I told you I identified as such?

  • Tired feminist

    Actually it is. Your insistence that male privilege is fictional is a good indicator that you might be male.

  • Wren

    I am sorry that you and your partner have lived such confused lives and that doctors and psychiatrists have validated and exploited your confusion in a way that has turned you into a medical experiment from which you may never recover. You must adopt a stringent and reactive ideology to protect yourself from this reality. In that regard, you have obviously succeeded

  • Tired feminist

    LOL nope. It’s only circular if you believe male privilege is fictional, which you do, otherwise you wouldn’t use scare quotes around it every single goddamned fucking time.

    Male privilege is what makes these men overconfidently clueless to the point of expecting women to bow down to their wishes to be seen as women. Men are used to our deference. Men are used to be listened to and taken at face value even when they’re talking absolute shit. These things encourage some of them to “identify” as women. I bet many of them don’t even believe *themselves* that they’re women, but they learned they can say anything.

  • Tired feminist

    Lucas didn’t “point out” very much apart from insulting everyone while preaching dogma.

    It doesn’t matter what “he” thinks or used to think as a child about being female. Most females agree that being female in a patriarchy sucks. This doesn’t turn us male.

  • snapcracklepop

    “Our language is important, and when the peolle we speak about who we claim to be allied with ask us to check our words, it’s our duty to do so.”

    Do you realize how hypocritical this is? Do you really not understand why women and lesbians are angry AF about some of this BS? We are asking transactivists – our so called allies- to check YOUR language! Attempting to erase the status of women and lesbians by demanding that we call ourselves ‘cis’, refer to our vagina’s as ‘front holes’ and pressure lesbians into sleeping with/being attracted to male-bodied people, or male-identified people is outrageously disrespectful. You cannot demand we change our language to suit you- that is not respect, and it is certainly not a celebration of difference and diversity. And it is VERY “dangerous” to women. We are not all the same, that is OK. Our struggles a different, that is OK. This is not an anti-trans fight, this is a pro-women fight. Get it? Now please, I’m asking YOU to check your words.

  • Wren

    OMG I KNOW. i wanted to say this exactly. yet somehow she thinks she caught us in a logical quagmire, when she simply confirmed us.

  • Wren

    hehehehe.

  • Wren

    SAME.

  • Meghan Murphy

    That’s not what FierceMild said. The point is that adopting the stereotypes associated with the opposite “gender” does not resolve the problem of gender, nor does it mean one actually changes ones sex.

  • Step

    Murdered because they’re “women”, or because they’re “trans”? Women are raped, murdered, mutilated, and pillaged every day. Did the male not expect this before transitioning? Why, suddenly, the horrified surprise? Utter self-absorption of the girl-to-be chauvinist, I suppose. “Welcome” to the World of Women. It’s OUR reality, not your trans reality.

    • Melody Williams-Daniels

      Interestingly, I have yet to see evidence that those murdered transgender people were specifically murdered because they were transgender. A disproportionate number of transgender people survive through sex work, which is notoriously dangerous. It’s very possible that many of them were killed because they were prostitutes.

      Unfortunately, it’s hard to really parse out a solution when so many mainstream feminists are championing sex work as female liberation. I’d wager that many of those deaths could have been prevented if discrimination didn’t force male transgender people into black market industries.

  • FierceMild

    In every conversation with a trans ideology practitioner you reach this point. The point where they tell you what a fucked up notion of sex stereotypes and roles they were raised with. I’m not surprised you are angry and confused. But you’re yelling at the wrong people.

  • FierceMild

    What are you taking about!!!!!? You’re the one who said that human beings are “assigned sex” through a “crude genital inspection” not me.

  • Alienigena

    Gender fluidity. Seriously? Biologists talk about modes of reproduction: sexual and asexual.

    http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/basics/reproduction/

    They do not talk about ‘gender fluidity’. Amphibians experience a sex change not a gender change. This is a radical feminist site where gender is considered a distinct category from biological sex. No one on this site is responsible for ill-informed journalists or others conflating the two terms.

  • Meghan Murphy

    No it’s not and I’m fairly sure you know what we mean, and are intentionally misunderstanding in order to claim we are insulting transwomen.

    Transwomen are not literally women. They are males who suffer from what some call gender dysphoria, who have a fetish/are autogynephilic, or simply don’t feel they fit the masculine stereotypes imposed on them. All of this is fine, really. Or would be if this was just about people being free to live and dress in ways that make them happy. The problem comes when we start arguing that these feelings mean one literally changes their biological sex and are literally women simply because of a feeling or a decision to change ones appearance and/or identity. The problem also comes when these males demand to be centered in feminism and to have access to women’s private spaces.

    I don’t care what you look like. I care about your behaviour and your politics and how that behaviour and those politics impact women.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Intersectionality does not mean centering males in feminism.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Jesus Christ. You are absolutely hateful. I honestly don’t know what is wrong with you or what happened to you in your life that has made you hate women so much, but, I don’t know, go talk to a therapist about it or something, because you do not have the right to speak to women like this here.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I’m so glad you all came out of the lurk! <3

  • Meghan Murphy

    They burned witches because they were born female, not because they ‘identified as women.’

  • Meghan Murphy

    Sounds like something someone who can’t come up with a logical argument would say.

  • Tired feminist

    Intersectionality has limits. If feminism is so intersectional that it includes males, it’s no longer feminism.

  • Tired feminist

    What a logical, convincing argument! We’re impressed.

  • Meghan Murphy

    A woman is an adult human female. It’s really not that complicated.

    “What is a woman? I’d say it’s a person who internally identifies as that.”

    Again, what is it that a person is identifying as if they are ‘internally identifying’ as a woman? Why bother identifying as anything other than a male? Surely ‘woman’ must mean something if one identifies as one?

    “But not everyone has a penis or a vagina, so intersex people also refute the claim that there are only two sexes and that our presentation of these is dependent on our private parts.”

    We’re not talking about intersex people. We are talking about people who identify as transwomen or transmen.

    “I’m a man, and I know what that feels like for me.”
    How do you know you are a man?

    “I didn’t go through years of therapy and thousands of dollars in surgery and hormone therapy just to play pretend.”

    I’m very sorry you felt you had to go through all this just to be yourself.

    “What are men and women? They’re two words human beings made up to classify something that they observed in nature.”

    Again, that’s not a definition. If ‘man’ and ‘woman’ doesn’t mean anything, why do you insist you are a man?

  • meowmix

    GET out of my head. While I don’t agree with some of the responses views towards Trans Women (as I do indeed believe that they are included in womanhood..as a transwoman), THIS really leaves nothing to argue against:

    “Does it matter how you arrived at being a woman? …If you’re a transwoman who grew up identifying as a man, who grew up enjoying the privileges of being a man, does that take away from becoming a woman?”

    exactly.

    It’s almost like people want to make the distinction of being a trans-woman, while vehemently arguing that they are NOT trans – Women. In my experience , even in the instances where anyone wouldn’t have known Either way, the “revelation” has been trotted out almost as a party favor. for “shock and awe”. Well…good for you? I never know what the response should be. Here non-trans women are being killed, batterd, abused, stolen etc…by their male counterparts (brown women even more so) and you want to fight with other women about if the Trans is infront of the “woman” or not? It kind of puts into perspective the real priority. Who are you fighting for? Who are you fighting against?

    Is the goal finally to obtain the womanhood that you’ve always felt, which is messy – dangerous- low paying – and complicated , or to be perceived as a “protected class” in the woman space because you’ve experienced male-privilege (but justttt not as much as what you thought should have been owed to you for not being or feeling masculine) ?

    Interestingly enough, the folk usually yapping about the oppression of (transitioned) women by (born) women are never black-trans women (with the exception of the rich and famous) who have no time to internet banter because they are being genocided on the streets by MALE psychosis and violence (like the rest of women). Ironically, it is black (born) women who use what little they have to bring visibility to the issue while white queers run around playing verbiage police.

  • Tired feminist

    “What is a woman? I’d say it’s a person who internally identifies as that.”

    What is a person who internally identifies as a woman identifying with?
    What does it mean to internally identify as a woman?
    What is feminism if one can’t even define woman to begin with?
    If one can’t define woman, how do people who internally identify as women know they’re women?

  • Yisheng Qingwa

    Ouch? gritty.

  • owleyes27

    I don’t understand how what Chimamanda said was transphobic or hateful. She merely acknowledged that there are differences between transwomen and women. She never once said transwomen are men or anything like that. She merely expressed that our experiences differ, which is true. Her views coincide totally with mine; transwomen have a place in feminism but we can’t pretend we’re the same because we’re not, and that’s ok. Isn’t that what intersectional means? Embracing difference instead of pretending it doesn’t exist? Her clarifications about socialization were spot on and are based in fact. Socialization theory has been shown time and again by various social sciences; no one has any intrinsic essence, were all a product of our environment, culture and society. This isn’t controversial. Demanding a woman apologize for stating basic facts is absurd. She has nothing to apologize for. Christ, she even said there’s a place in feminism for transwomen. And she’s still being attacked! It’s amazing. If you don’t 100% agree with post modern gender theories than you’re a bigot, full stop, and that’s very disturbing. We need more compassionate critical thinkers like CNA.

    • FierceMild

      I think you’re right, but the rhetoric of trans ideology is a real and present danger for women in female only spaces and we have to deal with that fact.

  • m_chica

    Being permitted to define ourselves as women and set boundaries and have safe spaces is not abandoning.
    I can be a trans ally and also want to be allowed to hold a uterus sign at a women’s rights march. I don’t expect to be allowed to tell trans communities how to define themselves or operate their activism. Why are they doing the same to women?

  • m_chica

    Apparently feeling like a woman inside > having been born with an actual vagina. And heaven forbid the person born with the vagina have ANY say in the discussion. If they do, they’re heartless and hateful. And apparently threatened.
    Misogyny embodied.
    (By the way, calling someone a cunt and telling them to fuck off and name calling is a pretty good indication that someone feels threatened…)

  • m_chica

    Funny…I thought it was the cotton ceiling condemning homosexuality. Apparently lesbians that want to be with women with vaginas are now transphobic and disgusting TERFs.
    This is the kind of rhetoric that is coming from radical transactivists.

  • m_chica

    Female fetuses are aborted systematically and female babies smothered for having vulvas. In certain places in the world females experienced routine genital mutilation and are bought and sold like property.
    No trans woman was born facing these realities.

  • m_chica

    The world does not look at a biological male, sees through to the “woman” inside them, and says, “Oh wait, this one doesn’t get male privilege. Treat them as poorly as females are treated, since they feel like a woman inside.”
    You can feel like a woman, but you were not born female. There is a point where we can acknowledge biology and physical facts.

  • m_chica

    Lucas – gender and sex are not the same thing.
    Animal kingdom doesn’t know or care what gender is. Because it’s a human social construct.
    Sex is purely biological, whether it is XY, XX, or something in between.

  • m_chica

    And they were all considered to be a unique distinct “gender” or social class. They were not simply called “women” and considered to be the same thing. Many of the cultures you’re referring to considered third and even fourth genders to exist.
    Which again. Means they weren’t all just called “women”. They were a distinct category.
    What is wrong with “transwoman” or “transman”? Are they dirty words? I don’t understand the shame/dislike for those terms. A trans person has gone through unique struggles and challenges. Doesn’t calling them “woman” fail to acknowledge their unique experience?

  • Cassandra

    I actually think it’s classic “Not Even Wrong”: It’s the whole thing in a nutshell, truly.
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong

  • Niki

    Sorry they are not *my* statistics I clearly stated where I got the numbers, the FBI web site and for the 0.3% trans and 21 trans murders there are many trans sites that state this (also wikipedia).
    Did I make a mistake in the maths? Please point me to my mistake if that is the case.
    Also I did not say anything about causation, just that statistically speaking trans were murdered at a lower rate than the general population in the United States in 2015. That is factual in as far as the FBI data is factual.

  • Step

    So that’s the reason you wanna poison kids! Hmmm. If we transition children at younger and younger ages, then they’re more and more like the gender with which they identify. The young males are really, really, almost really little girls. Ah, Lucas, I get it! Sterilizing children with growth stunting chemicals and hormones to win the “trans claim” that males are “truly” women, etc., especially if they transition younger! No different then white men injecting siphilus into the unknowing Tuskegee black men for 40 years. Or from thalidomide, marketed as safe for pregnant women, who later gave birth to babies with limb deformity. What these gender clinics inflict onto UNKNOWING children and adolescents, having NO researched evidence for its ultimate impact on their physical body, let alone self-concept, is EVIL to its CORE. But it “kind of” wins your argument, doesn’t it?

  • FierceMild

    ” I have also never faced the possibility of a forced marriage, or the risk of infanticide because of what was between my legs when I was born. However, I truly doubt that many women on this board have had that experience either.”

    That’s one hell of an assumption. I know several women on this board who were prostituted, raped and otherwise abused solely because they are female. I was denied an education by my parents because of my sex. The idea that these things don’t happen in the western world is willful ignorance.

    Many Mormon girls are subjected to child marriage, evangelical girls are taught to keep their eyes cast in the ground etc. etc. etc. This is our world. We don’t get to opt out of it.

  • Tired feminist

    Oh, you were raised by a libfem. That’s why.

  • Meghan Murphy

    The burned women (and still do in some places) who acted out, who engaged in female-centered spiritual practices, who were said to have had sex with the devil, and who generally did not behave in appropriately feminine ways. Older, poor women were (and still are) targeted in particular. They did not burn witches because they identified with femininity.

    It is completely illogical to accuse women who oppose the gender hierarchy (and, really, gender itself) of participating in patriarchal violence and oppression.

  • Meghan Murphy

    They are literally not the most vulnerable population on earth.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You obviously exist. Everyone knows you exist. No one has denied your existence.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Good to know all doctors and scientists are “TERFs.”

  • Meghan Murphy

    Use you[r] creative mind for a second and try and imagine the anger that’s generated by reading people deny that women are an oppressed class of people and that they are oppressed due to being born female.

    Can you comprehend how it might feel for a woman who has been raped or abused by a man to be told she must share her safe space with a male?

    Can you comprehend how it might feel for a group of people who are trying to fight to be treated as human beings to be told over and over again to sit down and shut up so that a male can speak on our behalf?

    The roots of *your* oppression are the same as women’s oppression because you were born female. The roots of the violence gender non-conforming males experience is rooted in patriarchy, but does not happen for literally the same reason as violence against women. Patriarchy came to existence in order to control women’s reproductive capacity, gender came to be in order to naturalize the hierarchy that places men at the top and women at the bottom. Men who don’t conform to masculinity are punished for doing so, but women are punished simply for being women, no matter how feminine they are.

    Yes, some men were also targeted during the witch trials, but to deny the witch hunt was gendered is simply wrong. The majority of those targeted were women. You should read a feminist history book. I recommend checking out Max Dashu’s work.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Who has denied your existence? Why is it ‘fucked’ to ask you to back up your own statements? And you, in face, are the only person here who has said bigoted things… Transactivists are the ones threatening women, calling us ‘TERF cunts,’ telling us to die, etc. Not feminists.

    Again, if I told you I identified as Indigenous, would you respect my identity and agree that, yes, I am Indigenous because I feel that way on the inside and have chosen to live my life as an Indigenous person?

    Can you explain why saying that males who identify as transwomen “are not women, do not experience the world as women, nor their physiology as women” is “bigoted?”

  • Meghan Murphy

    Because people with penises (men) have inflicted violence on millions of women across the world for thousands of years and are responsible for our subordination. Because women and girls are raped, prostituted, and murdered every single day by “someone with a penis.” That is why I am “obsessed.”

  • Meghan Murphy

    You want conversations about patriarchy to “go the fuck away?” Why?

    Also, transwomen are not murdered and harassed every single day. Females are, though. Stop making things up, please. It’s unproductive.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You are the one who is incapable of answering basic questions about statement you make and cannot defend your own claims and arguments…

    Speaking of pulling bullshit out of one’s ass, where is all this science that says trans people have feminine or masculine brains?

  • Meghan Murphy

    What is a woman? How does a male become a woman?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Do you truly not understand why telling women to ‘suck dick’ is a misogynist thing to say?

  • lk

    “my enemy is not male violence. My enemy is ignorance, presumptive, assinine, entitled ignorance. ”

    Male violence is the enemy of trans people, since the majority (maybe all?) of trans people who have been murdered have been murdered by men.

  • lk

    “Go after the men committing the violence instead of fixating on women just because they don’t agree with you.”

    IKR? it seems like transactivist are more upset with women who don’t agree with the idea that tranwomen= women than they are with the actual men who are physically harming and killing transwomen.

    They are always talking about cis-scum, terf, bigots and tweeting about murdering terfs….where are all their derogatory name for the male killers of transwomen? Why is all this anger being directed at women who are just having conversations?

  • Morag999

    “But they have a mental body!! It’s all about the body in my brain!’

    Ha! You are so right.

    You know how some particularly pious and passionate Christians will see the Virgin Mary in a water-stained wall, or Jesus Christ in a piece of toast? That’s how I think of these brain scans which “prove” that some guy shoulda had a set of fallopian tubes, or that some gal shoulda had a pair of testicles. It’s pattern-making, a deep desire to see something …

  • Cassandra

    Trans “women” are causing problems because legislation is affecting the definition of “sex” and that is very bad for female people, as it’s the basis on which we’re murdered, oppressed, etc. You know, the entire reason for the existence of patriarchy. And they are not the most vulnerable population on the earth. Stop the bullshit.

    As has been said many times already, we know you exist. What you are asking us to do is say you exist as a male, and we won’t. It is not violent and bigoted to assert that you are not male because you aren’t. Just the facts, m’am.

  • Cassandra

    Thank you.
    I’m seeing if it works but I think I’m doing something wrong because it’s not showing up as italics right now, just the symbols in front and in back of the words “Thank you”

  • Cassandra

    It did work! I’m going to be going crazy with italics now!

  • Cassandra

    “chant hashtags” LOL!

  • Melanie

    I don’t have a ‘gender identity’. I was just born female. This has nothing to do with who I am as a human being, except in so far as the stereotypes, roles and expectations that have been imposed onto me, sometimes with violence, just because I was born female. Stop assigning me a gender please. It’s offensive and sexist..

  • Melanie

    What does it mean to have a brain that matches your gender identity?

  • Tired feminist

    If you are seriously, without a hint of irony, defending things like “energy of the feminine” and “archetype of femininity”, you’re going to feel very lonely in a feminist space. Just saying.

  • Melanie

    Yes. I waited a long time to get on those new meds while the government wrangled on a price with Gilead. I’m very lucky to live where i do and that they were publicly funded. That’s not the case for so many people. I don’t know. My idea of ‘life-saving medicine’ is very different from a transgender activist’s idea of it. I see no reason to pump kids full of drugs with so many unknowns for something that’s not biological, but is essentially a social disease. Especially considering that most of the suicides are committed after treatment. I honestly believe that this will become one of the great medical scandals as these young people age and begin to suffer the side effects. Most of them look very unhealthy as it is. How can it be healthy to screw with your body like that? I appreciate my health so much now that I have it back. I can’t even imagine why someone would do that to themselves for something that’s not a proven medical condition. I think people who have detransitioned are a great example of people who managed to overcome this social conditioning and learned to accept themselves as they are. That should be the goal of treatment for transgender people in my opinion. Not trying to artificially make them conform to regressive gender stereotypes. I imagine it must be so difficult to resist it though with all the pressure society places on them to conform. But I think society is the problem, not biology.

  • Tired feminist

    If we disagree we’re “denying your existence”, “literally causing murder” and whatnot, but you’re not able to back up your claims with actual evidence or to reply to our objections coherently. So yes, you’re demanding we simply convert to your religion.

    • Melanie

      Throughout ancient history patriarchy, sexism, misogyny and homophobia was always there too, pressuring people to conform.

  • Tired feminist
  • Tired feminist

    No, Lucas. We feel threatened because predators, trans or not, are taking advantage of “gender identity” policies to invade our spaces and perv on us. This a very real concern, and it’s gaslighting to claim it’s unfounded.

  • Tired feminist

    What is a “gender identity”?

  • Tired feminist

    Of course trans people exist. This doesn’t mean their claims are real. It’s not that hard to understand.

  • Tired feminist

    “You want me to explain why it’s not okay to deny a person’s existence?”

    Is this the only line you rehearsed? We want you to explain where and how we’re denying anyone’s existence.

  • Tired feminist

    There you go preaching your religion again.

  • Tired feminist

    “Stop debating about our existence and identities and let us define that.”

    The day trans people concede this very same kindness to us, maybe we can have a think about it.

  • Tired feminist

    What they actually mean by “denying our existence” is “denying our self-proclaimed identity”. But because “denying existence” sounds meaner and guilt-trips well-meaning people who would never do such a heartless thing to an oppressed group, it became one of their standard manipulation tricks.

    As for the “transdisabled”, it’s already happening:
    http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/becoming-disabled-by-choice-not-chance-transabled-people-feel-like-impostors-in-their-fully-working-bodies

  • zirreael

    You know, the more pro-trans comments I read on this thread (Lucas and others), the more I am convinced, that US is a country of anti-intellectual, hysterical teenagers, and that they deserve every bit of their anti-intellectual, hysterical new president. It’s a better match than they think. Sorry not sorry.
    (Apologies to American radical feminists. I know there are exceptions).

    • Alienigena

      I think the UK is as bad if not worse re: promotion of a pretty extreme trans ideology. They support surgeries of men (MtT) who are in prison and who have been convicted of violent crimes, in some cases against women. These MtTs are then moved into women’s prisons. Some of the articles in the recent What’s Current sections talk about this.

    • Step

      Funny thing is Obama opened up women’s spaces to the trans community with an executive order last summer. Trump shut it down. Not a fan of the man with little hands, but I’m very happy he did this. Media here – i.e., The NYT – don’t even investigate the topic, but are blindly supportive. Health organizations are so fast to jump on the trans affirmative approach train that they ignore the aftermath of affirmation. Anyone in healthcare who rightfully disagrees just has to shut up, or they’re “unprofessional”. More than 40% of transgender people attempt suicide a few years after transition/surgery. And trans women are misogynistic and abusive, pissed at lesbians for the “cotton ceiling”. In some trans communities, transgender men are exploited by transgender women. For god sake REALLY! Females, as trans men, tell their own case study stories of being abused and manipulated by trans women. They can still be raped by the Ladymen. There really is an “underground” cult of abuse among the trans community. Where are the investigative reporters?! DYSPHORIC fucking world! If Lucas is not a victim of this himself, he knows trans men who are. Don’t you, Lucas?

  • snapcracklepop

    Oh wow. You really want to go after gays and lesbians like that? The fucking nerve…

  • snapcracklepop

    You’re really missing the point about gender.. it’s kinda sad, actually. Thing is, around these parts, we’re all for gender non-conforming. We don’t buy into ‘the binary’, we reject the notion and importance of gender almost completely. Get it? Like, ya know, butch lesbians, and twinks and bears and bois and femmes and blah blah have always been there, along with tomboys and feminine men and just, idk, people? All conforming or not conforming to lesser or greater extents; expressing their ‘gender.’ See how that whole gender-bending thing is nothing new? You didn’t make it up, it’s not a trans thing. And rad fems are all for it and none of it at the same time: We don’t wish to conform to gender! Get it, yet?? That, I’m afraid to say, is what being transgender is about. Is it not?

    • snapcracklepop

      In case you, Lucas, are still reading the comments here, I want to point something out to you that I think might help you to get it a bit better. You reference ‘gender fluidity’ a lot, which while that term might now fall under the trans umberella (it’s hard to keep up with all these nebulous terms) it is, again, not a new thing.

      What that term connotes is a person, or people whom, do not conform to stereotypical expressions of gender in one way or another. In fact, we all, men, women, trans people, feminists- everyone!- fall somewhere on the ‘gender spectrum.’ Not new stuff. Especially not new for feminists.

      I’ll try to use a really easy example here: you know that stereotype of feminists as hairy legged, bra-burning lesbians? Well, that certainly does not accurately describe all feminists, now or in history (pretty sure bra burning wasn’t ever an actual thing) but many feminists of my mother’s generation did grow their body hair out. They did stop wearing make up. Some more radical feminists chose lesbianism as a political as well as a personal choice: ie: they completely rejected heteronormative standards and heterosexuality altogether. THAT is radical. That is what against ‘the gender binary’ looks like. (Please note that this not the same as a sex-binary, which, as much as you like or hate it, is just a matter of fact).

      It wasn’t ever just about equality, though that was a central aim, it was about the liberation of women from the oppression of men, which in part, involved a feirce rejection of gender stereotypes and gendered roles. What you might call the gender binary.

      Since the concerns of trans people seem to evolve around external appearances (wanting to pass, not be misgendered etc), and an acknowledgment and acceptance of the differences in which transpeople express their gender (non-binary etc) I wish to point out to you that feminists have long rejected a gender binary (though I’m fairly sure that wasn’t language that was ever used)- The difference is the objective, the aim, if you will. While trans people seem to want express ‘fluidity’ as a means of conforming to what hetronormative society think of as men and women, feminists want to be free from having to do that altogether. So here we will always have a two sides to the same coin issue. One that you guys will need to really engage with before any point of understanding can occur.

      And I’m not even getting to gender ‘fluidity’ as it relates to homosexuality- again, not the same thing as transidentity at all, and yet steeped in politics of gender and its expression- sometimes rejecting of heterosexism, also often conforming to it, too.

      Does that make sense? Do you think you can try to thoughtfully take some of that in? Can you see how feminism is fundamentally in opposition to trans ideology and that’s where the anger is coming from? Is it possible for you to accept that our experience as women is different to yours as a trans people- in particular TW? If you really want an allied relationship you will do us the respect of acknowledging that.

  • Kris Åsard

    Wouldn’t it be fun if the “third wave” held themselves to the same high standard that they constantly demand from everyone else, and checked their own words once in a while?

    In particular, you’re being problematic when you start conflating actual violence with any and all kinds of verbal arguments that displeases you.

    It is a lazy, catch-all, rhetorical device used to shut down people without actually convincing them of your viewpoint. And it has been so overused that it has gone from staple to cliché in just a few years. Nobody takes it seriously any more.

    And therein lies the real danger: by overusing “violence” as a rhetorical device and conflating it with all kinds of interactions that aren´t actually violence, you are creating an atmosphere in wich actual violence is trivialized. THAT is normalizing violence.

    • will

      Yes!

  • JingFei

    Nice trolling. Not falling for it lol

  • Melanie

    In what way is it more complex? There are males, females and sometimes people with an intersex condition. It’s not complicated.

  • Melanie

    Of course you exist and are worthy of respect, but nobody is obligated to deny their own perceptions, reality and rights to validate your identity.

  • renny

    As a Black woman myself, I have always felt that the concept of a “transwoman” is an invention of white feminism and white male delusion. However, I am a live and let live type of person and I feel that if a man, or woman, is so deluded to think he is the opposite sex then so be it. That is no one’s business but their own and they should not be discriminated against because of it, but offered mental counseling. With that being said, I applaud Chimamanda for standing her ground and not backing down from these bullies.

    • Pod0riji7

      There is no such thing as white feminism. It either includes all women, or it’s not feminism. If you call it a white movement, you’ve erasing hundreds and hundreds of Black women were a major driving force of the feminist movement.

  • Meghan Murphy

    What kind of ‘transphobia’ are you seeing?

    • Melody Williams-Daniels

      I think he’s referring to our general unwillingness to acquiesce to transgender identity politics. Simply disagreeing with their premises seems to be enough to warrant accusations of transphobia.

  • Tired feminist

    She’s probably in denial. It’s always hard to admit you’ve been fooled, but it must be a gazillion times harder for trans people, especially if they already spent a shit load of money modifying their bodies irreversibly and taking extreme health risks in the process. Of course this doesn’t justify their behavior, but might partially explain why they get so agressive when they find feminism.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Would you like me to define ‘female’? I assumed that was self-explanatory, but if you are unclear about what an adult human female is, I can define that for you as well. (You could probably just look it up online, though…)

    If you already understand, though, that a woman is a an adult human female, why are you arguing that males can be women?

    I am asking you to define the words you are using because you are using words in ways that don’t make sense. In order for people to communicate with one another effectively, we need to use words that mean things, and that everyone understands. That is the purpose of language: to communicate.

    You claim this conversation has a negative impact on trans people — how? Do you understand that gender identity ideology, legislation, and policies have a negative impact on women and girls?

    “If you don’t stand with trans women, you’re a TERF. A trans exclusionary radical feminist”.

    Do you think that feminists must include and center men in their movement? Why? Why do you think that abused women must accept males in their shelters/safe spaces, for example? Do you really think that understanding male violence against women is systemic = ‘policing bodies’? I mean, how else do you think we should discuss and understand male violence against women? By pretending as though perpetrators of violence against women aren’t male? Lest they feel we are ‘policing’ their bodies?

    I actually am sorry. It seems like a very extreme thing to do in order to feel comfortable or happy. Trans people’s mental health issues are not resolved through surgery. This has been studied. The idea that acknowledging biological sex exists leads people to kill themselves is a pretty big stretch that is not at all provable.

    My job, as a feminist, is to center and stand up for women — females. Period. It is not my responsibility to validate the personal identities of anyone, particularly not males who seek to access women-only spaces.

  • Yisheng Qingwa

    ROFL

  • Yisheng Qingwa

    Seek help. Soon.

  • FierceMild

    I just found that out in an article I was reading. It was like an epiphany in terms of understanding, but nauseating when you consider the implications. These kids will possibly remain years behind their age-cohort in brain development if coming off Lipton allows the brain to pick up where it left off in the first place. It is not yet known what the full impact on brain development will be. And when you consider that the social contagion trans trend is effecting people with autism at the highest rates the whole thing is enough to make you cry.

    • will

      Yup.

  • FierceMild

    I think you mean:

    YES THEY ARE WOMEN. THERE IS NO CONFUSION HERE. THESE ARE NOT THE DROIDS YOU’RE LOOKING FOR. STOP DEFENDING YOUR BIGOTRY, TERF.

    You see how that was shouty, funny and properly punctuated? Much more effective I think.

  • Wren

    I think this is the first i’ve heard this kind of insidious misogyny from a “transmale”. It really shows the hatred she has for her own anatomy. She’s a true mirror for society’s view of women, and she’s deeply disturbed. I derive no pleasure from this acknowledgement.

  • renny

    I don’t recognize transgender as a thing that exists so that doesn’t faze me.

  • snapcracklepop

    LMAO TERDS

  • Cassandra

    Anyone who disagrees that gender feelings should override physical sex is automatically “transphobic” according to trans people. There’s no where to go after that.

  • snapcracklepop

    I think poor Lucas is confusing feminism and queer politics- seems to be a common thing these days.

    Sadly I fear the rights of Ls will be going down the toilet along with women’s more generally. Funny that they have that whole female thing in common.

    Meanwhile, I still don’t get why the T is lumped in with the LGB. Even the special snowflakes of tumblr and YouTube will tell you that gender expression and sexual orientation are not the same thing.

    It’s a very confused world out there.

  • Cassandra

    And now we have tone policing.

    The idea of “transcending an original false gender” does not make sense because gender (masculinity and femininity) is false in the first place. Gender is not a good thing. Reproductive sex just is, and cannot be transcended.

  • Cassandra

    I think you’re missing a crucial point: We do not believe in gender as an innate thing. Nothing needs to “match.”

  • Fouraces

    I get what you’re trying to say, but I think trans ideology as it is in “the West” exacerbates or even creates the expectation that for trans people to lead fulfilling lives, they must be the same as cis people in every significant way. A few are so deluded as to think that biological sex can be fluid.
    It is on trans people to rethink their ideology, not on everyone else to avoid or deny basic truths, especially when the truths are important in advancing feminist goals or preserving certain female-only spaces.

  • Step

    Right on!

  • CatherineTGWShark

    Oh, also some proof that “Greeks made statues in their honor” would also be nice.

    Tbh, I don’t understand why you’d want to use Ancient Greeks (who, at best, looked at women as little more then animals or, at worst, outright hated them) art as your go to enlightened and positive example.
    But, eh. Now that you did you really should present some example of it.

  • Morag999

    Just look at that wall of text droning on and on, fascinated by your own voice, advising women how to think about things they’ve already thought about, and have understood, for much longer than you ever have or will. You’re equal parts arrogant, insulting, clueless and boring. Schmuck.

    • Cassandra

      Couldn’t have said it better myself. Straight men, which I’m guessing he is, always sound almost exactly the same.

      Don’t you love how liberal males will come into these discussions all ready to be all liberal and shit, to white knight it for the poor laydee brainz women who just want to pee?! Where are they when it’s about abortion rights, or rape culture or the wage gap? I mean, if they’re so worried about women, why are they only here going on and on about trans women?

      It really is such a mystery!

    • Melody Williams-Daniels

      Cosigning what you just said.

      Sexists have a tendency to think they are intellectually superior. It’s almost like they never considered we came to our conclusions after careful deliberation. It really says something about this jerk’s attitudes towards women.

  • Step

    Sex does not have “alliance”. Sex cannot be changed. Sex has an “apparatus”, as you wrote earlier. Our genetics and gonads. Gender is a concept, not a tangible or quantifiable reality. In scientific hypotheses, it’s impossible to validly operationally define gender. Try it! Scientists simply can’t do it. The female body is not inherently feminine, and the male body is not inherently masculine.

  • Step

    The 21st c Ethical Nightmare in Medicine. Shooting up “trans” children with sterilizating growth stunting chemicals and hormones, double mastectomies (“top surgery”) on 16 year old girls, etc. These doctors are sick, sick people.

  • Tired feminist

    No. The trans agenda is anti-feminist.

  • Tired feminist

    It can be harsh, but it’s better than feeding their self-delusion further.

  • Tired feminist

    You can’t be serious.

    Nationalities are a legal formality. Sex is a biological fact.

  • Tired feminist

    HAHAHA

  • Tired feminist

    Adam, you’re just embarrassing yourself. I suggest you read a few more articles on Feminist Current before commenting further.

    Homosexuality and “gender identity” are not comparable in any way. The former is a real biological phenomenon observable in several species. The latter is a homophobic, misogynistic, pseudoscientific fiction.

  • Tired feminist

    So you just said “I can’t tell women how to do feminism” and “nobody is right here” on the same breath?

  • Cassandra

    Oh god. That’s depressing. I hope women wake up to this soon. It’s just about the most nefarious thing patriarchy has cooked up yet.

  • Step

    “Children are only getting hormone treatment after extensive ‘vetting'”. Interesting that you used the word “vetting”. It implies that the child is not being treated by a doctor, but being appraised and scrutinized by one. “Can we trust this one for the big experiment?” Dr. C asks. “Yeah, I bet subject x will be a good one for the sample we’ve got. Start her quick on the sterilizing blockers,” Dr. B replies.

  • Tired feminist

    Woman and female are not synonyms. Woman is an adult *human* female. Female is the class of individuals that produce ova, as opposed to the class of individuals who produce sperm.

    If you disagree, you DO have to provide your own definitions. Otherwise why should anyone take you seriously?

  • Cassandra

    You are LITERALLY KILLING ME. I EXIST! You are a BIGOT and a VIRULENTLY STRICT existence denier! We have always existed, since the beginning of time, and the TOOTH FAIRY exists, too, and SHE IS TRANS, and she brings babies to the world from a sea of pink glitter and mermaid eyelashes. Stop LITERALLY DEBATING MY EXISTENCE. MURDERER!

  • Fouraces

    I don’t think trans women should colonize feminism. I think the real trans people who try to pass can join in talking about the part of sexism that they face for looking like women, but not the other issues that are caused by biological realities. I agree that the problems that are due to transphobia only should be handled in a separate movement.

  • Independent Radical

    “The majority of women I know are actually as gender non-conforming as
    they think they can get away with without incurring consequences.”

    That’s great. Most of the women I encounter are eager gender conformers who bore the crap out of me by blabbering on about dresses and cooking when I want to either get the work down or talk about something, dare I say it, interesting.

    We shouldn’t be too quick to underestimate the influence of gender on thought and behaviour, most femininity conformity happens without much critical thought, because people have assumptions in their brain that they don’t question.

    Even some radical feminists practically worship pregnancy and motherhood. These are elements of femininity in my view, since even though they require one to be biologically female, they aren’t automatic results of being biologically female and thus women have to be indoctrinated into accepting these roles.

    There are almost as many baby/motherhood themed toys as there sexiness/prettiness themed toys, but only the latter get criticised because they push young girls into a newer gender role that older women weren’t pushed into and therefore don’t accept. Meanful younger women criticise traditional womanhood, but not the “modern” sexualised version.

    It’s hard to criticise something when you’ve grown up with it and base your identity on it, but radical feminists should have the courage to criticise any and all forms of femininity, not just the ones they don’t adhere to.

  • calabasa

    I agree with this except in the case of straight men who identify as women. Most of them are sexual fetishists (and a fetish is not an orientation).

    • Independent Radical

      Straight men can still be feminine (or have enough feminine attributes to get bullied for being feminine or smacked with a “gender dysphoria” diagnosis), so I don’t think it’s just gay men who taking on trans identities (and in fact the majority of them are “lesbians”, i.e. straight men). Gay men are confident in their identities as men who don’t totally conform to masculinity. Straight men often feel they have to conform or else they aren’t straight men.

      Some probably are extreme sexual fetishists though, I’m not denying it and a sexual feeling can develop into an identity for some people, but I still think gender is the driving force here, with men being turned on by femininity and coming to believe that they therefore are feminine (and by their reasoning, women) deep down.

      • calabasa

        Well, my evidence is based on reading about studies (in which ALL straight men who wanted to be women have been classed as autogynphelic in one way or another) and my own experience (which I know is anecdotal). I’m aware straight men can be feminine too, and thus come to believe they actually are female, but autogynephelia (or, arousal by imagining oneself as possessing the body of the sex that is desired; literally, “love of self’s vagina” or imagined vagina) is a real thing (I think concomitant porn use–voyeurism–and exhibitionism tend to go along with this fetish). I have known people like this. These people WERE effeminate, however, in some ways; I don’t think it’s either/or. But a sexual fetish about actually being a woman can cause people to believe they have genuine dysphoria (cross-dressing for sexual thrills is NOT genuine dysphoria, in my opinion; others might disagree). This is an issue when they are not respectful, because most actual women don’t perform acts of voyeurism or exhibitionism routinely as a part of our gender (this is also why such men tend to be very much into porn/sex work is work crowd, because they WOULD find it “empowering” to perform in pornography or dance nude “as women,” as they are exhibitionists; the idea that this has anything to do with “womanhood” is harmful). Yes, I know, #notallstraighttrans, but I truly believe there are a large number of sexual fetishists out there, who, though they may be effeminate, are also sexist and stereotyped in their beliefs of “what makes a woman” (although gay males can be too, as can women, so I am not just blaming them). As long as the sexual fetishists are respectful, I’ve got no problem with them, but they tend to be among the most demanding of women, as they are not, in fact, that feminine, and have not usually dropped their masculine entitlement.

        • Independent Radical

          I think the idea of a sexual fetishist being respectful is somewhat contradictory, otherwise I agree.

  • Zuzanna Smith
  • Melody Williams-Daniels

    Well, aren’t you an angry, little lass? LOL

    I think Lucas just helped make a case for abandoning the word “transitioned”. Mutilating healthy body parts with surgery and hormones doesn’t make a man into a woman or a woman into a man. It’s not a transition. It’s a sign of deep-seated mental and emotional disturbances.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    Actually, you don’t sound happy at all. And the only people who are policing the bodies of others are males and other males who identify as transwomen. They are calling women bigots and transphobic if we even dare to acknowledge our femaleness, you are the one who is policing us and erasing us. FEMALES exist!! And we don’t give a shit if that makes your boyfriend cry. Phallus is always MALE, and feminism does NOT center phalluses and their owners, sorrynotsorry.

    “when we’re actually magical goddamn creatures worthy of the same fucking respect as you.” Oh, now it becomes clear, you are mentally unstable.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    Bruce Jenner already knows he’s a male, the six kids he sired by three different women was a giant red flag. I really don’t think it’s news to him.

    Do you think that M2T’s would defend you as robustly, albeit insanely, as you are defending them? NAH.

  • Just Passing Through

    Seems like women “take heat” for just about anything and everything while men get away with saying whatever pops into their heads at any given time.

    • FierceMild

      Yep, it’s on account of how much worthier they are, ya know? What with having penises and all.

      • Just Passing Through

        lol…yep.

      • Just Passing Through

        The fact that privilege attaches to them is even more absurd….just amazes me.

  • Kara Dansky

    Please define “female transgender.”

  • will

    I agree. The “hormone therapy” transpeople pay for is pretty much a contemporary version of chemical castration as they would use it to “fix” gay men. Like they do in Iran.

  • calabasa

    Same!

    I have now been shamed as a rape survivor for having the temerity to suggest that rape isn’t worse than death (and that it’s not nice to yell and curse at rape survivors in the comment section of a supposedly feminist publication), and banned, and called a “transmisogynist” by the person who did the shaming and banning for my comments here on FC to boot.

    I have officially arrived.

    • FierceMild

      I am so sorry. You’re having a really tough go.

      • calabasa

        http://www.notsorryfeminism.com/2014/09/men-dont-understand-rape.html

        This is the article. I left an eminently reasonable comment in which I said that, although I see her point and agree that men need educating about the effects of rape, she was being extremist as well, on the other side of the spectrum, by saying rape was worse than death and most women would agree, and that she was devaluing the lives of survivors by suggesting that (or shaming them in some way, as if they should have fought harder), and that it might not be politic to yell and swear at a survivor who says she’s been raped but that life is better than rape and she’s alive and happy to be alive and that life is better than death so of course death is worse than rape (she yelled at this woman for “shaming her position” that she’d rather be murdered than raped). I also said it might not be so healthy to use rape survivors who comment saying they agreed as tokens of support instead of suggesting they get help (if they wished they were dead); she also told a man who had been raped as a boy who said he valued his life not to “shame her position.” I told her I’d been raped and it was hard and painful but I hoped not only to value my life and find my fair shot at happiness but to be able to help other women someday so something of value could come of it. I asked her how could she know, if she hadn’t been raped, which she really would find worse? (I mean, that is the kind of childish attitude I had when I was like 10; that quickly had to go after the first time I was raped or I would’ve given up a long time ago).

        She deleted my comment because she “hated it so much,” and banned me, but still responded (you can see her response on there), in which she shames me for shaming non-rape survivors for their belief rape is worse than death, holds up the poor woman raped three decades before who says she agrees and wishes she would’ve died as proud evidence of her claim, scoffs that I would get mad at her for “swearing” at a rape survivor, and then tells me she’s spied on my comment history and calls me “transmisogynist.”

        I was angry about this for about a minute, until I started laughing (apparently now non-rape survivors who fear being raped are a protected group too, who must not be shamed by rape survivors for their extreme positions on rape and how it’s impossible to recover from or not worth living after; any group now apparently is an oppressed group who must not be shamed…thus is the weak nature of identity politics).

        I read her comment policy in which she says “no slurs,” to “check your privilege” if someone less privileged than you is speaking, and to “never encourage self-harm.” (The site’s founder and principle blogger was the woman doing the angry responding shaming rape survivors for disagreeing with her harmful notion that rape is worse than death, and gleefully producing the words of a suicidal-sounding rape victim in support of her position). If I weren’t banned, I’d probably flood her with a bunch of comments about what an absolutely stupid, dumb, crazy, insane idiot she is (as those are her five banned “slurs,” though it’s not a slur to tell a rape victim that her view that her life is still worthwhile is “fucked up,” apparently).

        I encourage everyone to troll this woman! She is a dangerous presence in “feminism” (and I should have known better than to leave a reasonable response on a clearly crazy person’s website).

        But yeah, I consider the moment I was shamed by a self-described “white liberal able-bodied middle-class feminist” for shaming her and other non-survivors for their views on rape (who am I, as a survivor, to tell her how to feel about her potential rape and whether or not it would in fact be worse than death?), banned from a liberal feminist site and called a “transmisogynist” in the same breath to be the moment I truly arrived as a radfem.

        So, don’t feel bad for me! It was a shock for a second, then a real eye-opener about the virtue-signaling as compared to true lack of empathy (or substance) of such people, then a big chuckle (absurdism is the thinking woman’s self-help), and then a big heaping dose of pride in getting banned from such a blog (and realization that yeah–those libfems are giant, burning bags of crazy; they really are the gaseous stars of the cloud cuckoo universe).

    • Step

      Welcome Sister!

    • Just Passing Through

      So glad you’re here as are others I’m sure! And yeah it’s Trans Misogyny all right …as in Trans being misogynists!

  • Kara Dansky

    In what sense, exactly, is your existence being debated? It seems to me that people are engaging in conversation with you. In doing so, they are CONFIRMING your existence, not denying or debating it.

  • calabasa

    Ha ha ha ha ha! Mine will be soon!

  • Kara Dansky

    How exactly are you defining “trans people” here, and can you provide a single example of such a person existing in ancient history?

  • Kara Dansky

    Why is your existence dependent on other people’s acceptance of the validity of your identity? I’m free to identify in whatever ways I want to, and I don’t think my existence is dependent on your validation of my identity.

  • calabasa

    It protects her from all the laws trying to control women’s reproduction. It protects her, as someone else so memorably said, from worrying about becoming pregnant after a rape (I have experienced that worry, as I am sure have others in this blog). And, as FierceMild says, it is usually carried over post-transition in the form of trying to force her belief systems onto women and into appropriation of women’s bodies, labor, spaces, words, and body parts (women’s identities). It protects her from having much empathy for women. (In my city, the top three female winners in the huge annual bike race this year were trans women. A year or two of hormone therapy does not change different bone structure, endurance or musculature). I don’t see many trans women losing sleep about how their violence is now counted as women’s violence either (or their jobs as women’s jobs). They should be counted/treated as trans women, not as women OR men (those three trans women were really competing with each other for top spot; the women who came after were the real winners of the women’s event).

  • calabasa

    I would be happy including trans women in feminism if they a)allow us to speak about reproduction, b)stop language policing (not allowing us to say “pregnant mothers” or “FGM” or “women” instead of “menstruators”), i.e. stop trying to erase OUR identities in their demand we validate theirs, c)therefore have to admit they ARE different and their struggles and experiences are different than those of biological women, d)unpacked their male privilege and then checked it at the door. Some trans women do this, and I am fine with calling them feminists. Some do not but instead act like MRAs in dresses. Some natal women can be real assholes too, and I don’t call them feminists either. And I think male allies are fine, and that the goal of feminism (to dismantle patriarchy but, in the meantime, to try to protect women and girls) will help men, nob-binary people, animals and the earth, too.

  • Melody Williams-Daniels

    The very notion of “white feminism” seems like a call to scapegoat white women for white male oppression. Kind of like who white feminists got blamed for Trump’s election, but nobody had too much of anything to say about all those white males who voted for him.

    It’s strange that nobody sees the irony in that.

    • FierceMild

      To me the main indicator that ‘white feminism’ was a tool of the masters was who used it. Usually white people, most often white men.

      If a black feminist uses it, I’ll listen to what she has to say. Otherwise it’s a nope from me.

  • Tired feminist

    Because she identifies as a ghost
    (sorry I couldn’t let it go)

  • calabasa

    Actually, that’s a backronym. “Fuck” comes from old German (“to strike,” “to rub,” “to have sex,” or merely “penis”–these are all cognates in various old Germanic languages). It has cognates in modern Germanic languages now (“ficken” means “to fuck” in German). Some argue it’s related to the Latin “futuere” (to fuck) or the Greek “phyo” (to beget from woman), but these connections are more tenuous. 🙂

  • Step

    That’s ADAM for you. Adam has no capability for logical thought. Poor Adam.

  • Melody Williams-Daniels

    Welcome home, Step.

    I used to be on that liberal feminism, pro-trans, all-inclusive bandwagon, as well. It was interactions with sexist transgender people and gender-critical discussions like this that helped me reconsider my stance and adopt a politic that actually made sense.

    I’m glad you saw the light.

    • Wren

      I struggled with it for a long time, mainly because i kept thinking of my trans friends who were prostituted. But overall they aren’t the ones pushing this warped and disturbing ideology. In fact, they are getting pimped again by the elite trans who are using violence against prostitutes to doctor their statistics. Also, many of them didn’t stay trans if they got out of prostitution. Again, they were appealing to male perversions to survive.

      It honestly doesn’t seem like the trans movement even gives a shit about the most marginalized of their “community” and this makes me even more furious.

      • Step

        Absolutely, Wren. The isolated trans academics could care less about the the “sub” trans community and the prostituting and abuse that goes on.

  • FierceMild

    It’s apparently even trickier then the definition of ‘woman’. Who knew?

  • FierceMild

    Respect is earned, in my book, not just given for no reason.

  • FierceMild

    Do you usually use ‘cis’? (honest question, I know you aren’t trolling and I’m wondering what your thoughts are with that).

  • Melody Williams-Daniels

    Why is their victimization *OUR* problem? That seems to be something that transgender people and their supporters don’t get. We don’t owe any of you a goddamn thing!

    Females have our own issues to deal with. It is not our job to champion for men who think they’re women. If you’re so concerned about your cross-dressing brethren, then YOU go advocate for them. Many of us have been quite clear in saying that we’re not interested in picking up their baggage. So, why are you still here beating this dead horse?

  • Melody Williams-Daniels

    No. This really is about feelings. You seem to think that “feeling” like a man actually makes you one and you expect everyone else to indulge these delusions. Nobody here feels threatened by you or any other transgender people. We just don’t feel obligated to indulge your LARP fantasies.

    …and no, sex and gender are exactly what they’ve always been. The emergence of transgender identity politics doesn’t change any of that.

  • Melody Williams-Daniels

    When a uterus-bearer and penis-possessor love each other very much and want to have a baby, they send a letter to the stork delivery service listing their specifications. Then, the stork waits for the babies to hatch from their eggs and they delivery it to the expectant parents via UPS.

    It’s totally true. No, really….it is! LOL

  • Step

    Wonderful to have you! Making these redundant logical arguments to narcissists is exhausting.

  • Melody Williams-Daniels

    Lucas is a woman who deeply wishes to be a man. I doubt that she will hold males accountable for their misogyny. Based on the commentary she’s left here, it seems that she’s bent on emulating it.

  • Melody Williams-Daniels

    Nobody has challenged your existence.

    Transgender women are not women. They are surgically and chemically altered males (SCAMs).

    Gender non-conforming people may have enjoyed some prestige or reverence in some ancient societies as spiritual beings or artists, but nobody was championing the fallacy that a man can become a woman just because he got castrated…..much in the same way that nobody in France though Joan of Arc was really a man trapped in a woman’s body.

  • Melody Williams-Daniels

    Yes, they are.

  • Melody Williams-Daniels

    You remember that one time where that guy murdered a transgender woman and the police found radical feminist literature in his trunk?

    Nope, me neither.

  • Melody Williams-Daniels

    Ken dolls?

  • Melanie

    Well that’s true. Lucas hasn’t exactly been respectful. I mean in more general terms it’s not about disrespecting anybody. It’s just acknowledging facts.

  • Melanie

    ‘Didn’t you just inform me that a definition cannot include itself? Saying
    “a woman is an adult human female” is basically defining something with
    its synonym.

    Female is not a synonym for woman. It describes the sex of a human being, animal or plant. Being a female human being makes a person a girl or a woman. Being a male human being makes a person a boy or a man. Words have meaning. You can’t just change them to mean whatever suits you.

  • Melanie

    How can science discover that trans people have brains that match their gender identity when science hasn’t proved the existence of ‘gender identity’? Gender identity is a social construct, not science.

  • Step

    I wonder if Forth Sadler, the trans white woman who commented here 7 days ago, has a sense of what has happened to feminist thought among women since Adichie. As witnessed here, among all of the new posters, the boiling point has peaked. Forth Sadler, welcome to the new 21st century feminism and to the replacement of liberal feminism. Forth Sadler, you are not a woman. You are a man.

  • Step

    More, calabasa (and ADAM): I am a teacher of Advanced Placement Psychology. Regarding the correlation between Autism and the diagnosis of transgender identity, here is my HYPOTHESIS:

    If a child with autism is typically diagnosed as not having “theory of mind”, then a child with autism is more likely to be identified by GENDER CLINIC DOCTORS WHO STERALIZE CHILDREN as transgender.

    CONCLUSION: TRUE

    Is this not proof enough that the whole concept of “transgender identity” is BULLSHIT!!!!!

    Where in fucking HELL are the JOURNALISTS?

    • Cassandra

      “Where in fucking HELL are the JOURNALISTS?”

      a) Male and lapping this shit up.
      b) Female and dummy dumbs choosey choice agency empowerfulized libfems.
      c) Female and scared to death of being targeted by these awful people.
      d) People trying to make a living and know they’ll be blacklisted and/or the pharmaceutical companies will pull advertising, leaving a giant black hole in their revenue, especially television. The kinds of shows that would do a story like this—20/20 and 60 Minutes type programs here in the US—are heavily dependent on pharma advertising dollars because the main demographic engaged in those shows is probably about 55 and older and thus every other commercial is for this or the other pill.

      Joseph McCarthy must be laughing his ass off down in hell.

  • Step

    I worry about “forcing” him to figure it out. Trans activists these days can be dangerous. I hope someone will print up the news soon.

  • Independent Radical

    “I’m including many extremely feminine women in my category of
    as-gender-non-conforming as-they-dare. For many women, the consequences
    of not painting a different more acceptable face over their regular face
    every day is more than they want to deal with.”

    Have these women openly stated that they would prefer to be allowed to act in a non-feminine way? I understand why a women would conform to femininity even if she didn’t want to, but most women I know don’t even voice opposition to femininity. I’m not a mind reader of course so it’s possible they’re questioning femininity internally. Call me cynical, but I need to see evidence of that questioning before I believe in it.

    “Pregnancy is a female bodily function necessary for the continuation of the species.”

    It’s not a bodily function, at least not in the same way that periods are. Not only does it have to initiated by PIV sex (or a similar decision), but (in countries where women have access to abortion) for it to continue a women must opt not to terminate it. So getting (and continuing to be) pregnant is a behaviour as well as a biological process. If women do not see pregnancy and childbirth as the best things ever they can avoid them through their actions, which is why women are indoctrinated into thinking they are good (and conservatives spend a lot of time doing this, by practically worshipping pregnancy and motherhood). It takes a degree of self-sacrifice (which I don’t find to be inherently admirable) not to abort something that is draining your bodily resources.

    Future technologies could create a world in which pregnancy isn’t necessary for human survival, a world where biological women wouldn’t have to go through extreme pain and risk death in order to become parents, while men can avoid all that (which strikes me as an injust system no matter how “natural” it is). In my view society and biology are inter-related. Certain roles are shoved onto women because of their biology and we need to address both the social and biological factors that make women vulnerable.

    “I’m assuming that the femininity you’re referring to with regard to
    pregnancy is in reference to PIV sex? I can see that line of thought,
    but as for mothering one’s child being an act of femininity I think we
    enter into some very muddied waters.”

    No, I see PIV sex as a separate feminine behaviour, though it’s social importance may decline once alternatives to pregnancy (such as artificial wombs) are invented (don’t tell male transhumanists that!). The idea that being a stereotypical mother (as opposed to just a parent) is an aspect of femininity shouldn’t be controversial. If it’s just biology why are there all kinds of toys dedicated to pushing motherhood onto little girls? (e.g. baby toys that pee themselves, how fun!) Why are they necessary if women are biologically programmed to do that? (which is an insulting idea if you ask me) Why are there no similar toys for boys? It’s definitely a part of gender indoctrination, but it’s been around so long that radical feminists don’t bother to discuss it, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t.

    • FierceMild

      Yes they will say they find everything to do with performing femininity burdensome and tiring.

      I understand and agree about the idea of the perfect (or even ‘good’) mother is completely horrendous and imposed from a young age because otherwise it wouldn’t never be accepted.

      • Independent Radical

        “Yes they will say they find everything to do with performing femininity burdensome and tiring.”

        You’re lucky. I’ve only found one woman who’s that intelligent. Most women I encounter are unfortunately enthusiastic advocates of femininity.

        “I understand and agree about the idea of the perfect (or even ‘good’)
        mother is completely horrendous and imposed from a young age because
        otherwise it wouldn’t never be accepted.”

        I agree, but I would argue that the demand that women go through horrific pain in order to have a child instead of supporting technological alternatives (which could easily be developed if more people were supportive of the idea and in fact there are people working on developing them) to pregnancy/childbirth is part of that “good mother” ideal. How dare a woman not want to experience horrific pain in order to have a child!

        And of course, we must also defend the right of women to reject parenthood altogether. I worry that treating pregnancy and childbirth as if they were something that all women go through as a direct result of their biology is contrary to that aim.

        • FierceMild

          “You’re lucky. I’ve only found one woman who’s that intelligent. Most women I encounter are unfortunately enthusiastic advocates of femininity.”

          In that I’m both lucky and unlucky at the same time. I have a large acquaintance among women whose lives – for religious reasons of their own choosing – were basically stalled in the late 19th century. Femininity looks a whole lot different to women who have 10 or 11 children as a result of performing it…and it looks even more suspect to their daughters who both endure the results (as mini-mothers to their siblings, housewives in training, sergeants to their brothers, etc) and are expected to suffer the same fate.

          “And of course, we must also defend the right of women to reject parenthood altogether. I worry that treating pregnancy and childbirth as if they were something that all women go through as a direct result of their biology is contrary to that aim.”

          I completely and unreservedly agree with this. I have yet to see a single solitary choice about having children that is acceptable for women to make.

          I myself have been openly criticized for all of the following:
          Being a virgin
          Being suspected of not being a virgin
          Actually not being a virgin
          Living with a man before marriage
          Not marrying soon enough
          Marrying too young
          Marrying at all
          Not particularly wanting children
          Not having children soon enough
          Employing a midwife
          Having a C-section
          Having a child
          Not having more than one child

          There just isn’t a palatable way for women to be parents.

  • midwifemama

    Here’s the answer I’ve gotten to this question from more than one woman: “Your words just feel hateful and transphobic to me.”

  • midwifemama

    “It’s kind of a slap in the face.”
    Another man calling women violent for not emotionally and verbally coddling the fragile male ego. Refusing to validate your delusion is not “a slap in the face.” Women don’t owe identity validation to anyone.

    • Wren

      I swear this aligns with some of the “data” about female to male violence. Men cry violence any time a women doesn’t do exactly as he says, doesn’t give him sex, or fights back if he tries to strike. As someone remarked before, violence is becoming another thing that men define, rather than the thing MEN commit almost exclusively.

  • midwifemama

    You, a man, are telling women we have to pretend to believe in something that is not only horrifically insulting to us (men in woman-face) but also is destroying all of our legal sex-based protections. And the reason we have to go along with this is because we are obligated to protect the delicate feelings fo the men who think they are women. Are you at least going to tell us to “lie back and think of England” while we pretend to enjoy getting screwed?

  • will

    I am very confused as to what “white feminism” actually means. It’s not that I deny white or class privilege, but those produce racism and classism. It would seem that “white feminism” is a different concept but I’m not sure if it’s meant to indicate third wave pro-capitalism that gets called feminism – the “more women CEOs/billionaires=progress” sort of thing, or if it’s meant to indicate second wave feminism and it’s critique of the sex trade. I have seen it employed as a descriptor of both of these.

    • Melody Williams-Daniels

      I understand “white feminism” to refer to feminism that isn’t intersectional. I’m not entirely sure how white women came to be seen as uniquely non-intersectional….I’m going to *assume* that it has to do with the way the concerns/interests of white women dominate feminist discourse.

      The way “white feminism” is frequently used is an entirely different story. From what I’ve seen and heard from white women who are involved in feminism, refusing to tow the party line is enough to warrant accusations of “white feminist” leanings. I’m pretty much convinced that it’s a slur at this point.

      • Tired feminist

        The problem is that “intersectional” is used by liberals as synonym of “trans-inclusive”. They do it on purpose, because it allows them to create a strawman from female-centered feminism (aka simply “feminism”) and position themselves as opposed to this strawman. In other words, it creates a false dichotomy between “intersectional vs. white feminism” when what they actually mean is “trans-inclusive ‘feminism’ vs. feminism”.

        It’s a clever trick, and utter dishonest, because it makes it look like as if it were a race issue, when it’s actually a “gender identity” one. They KNOW they’re misrepresenting us, they just don’t care.

      • FierceMild

        I think we need a separate thread for discussing race within radical feminist circles. I feel like there’s a chance right now to go further then we ever have before into inter-racial sisterhood. Partly thanks to the insanity of the trans-ideology, which serves as a visceral reminder of whose voices actually get heard (men’s) whose needs take priority (men’s) and how far they’re willing to go to retain power over all of us (as far as necessary).

      • Taylor

        White male children can also be raped by men

    • Pod0riji7

      Oh how we snuck about and critiqued things…we reveled in it.

  • Tired feminist

    “terf is a neutral descriptor”

    5 minutes later: “kill all terfs”

  • Tired feminist
    • Step

      Darn! But I lheard this once on an NPR show!

  • Zuzanna Smith

    It certainly works for Trump.

  • Americus91

    Trans discourse demonstrates a high degree of narcissism – gas lighting, pity plays, and narcissistic rage following the narcissistic injury of people pointing out reality.

  • FierceMild

    Oh, I certainly agree with that. I meant to express the idea that if a black woman tells me there’s something in my politics or ideas that is injurious to black women, then I’m going to listen to what she has to say (no promises to agree), because we live in a white supremacist society and I will certainly miss things.

    • Melody Williams-Daniels

      That’s a fair position. So often, the call to “listen” is treated as a call to “obedience” and it becomes difficult to know when discussions are taking place in good faith.

      I just saw a video that really inspired me to approach conversations differently. Megan Phelps-Roper is a former member of the Westboro Baptist Church. She just gave me hope for humanity.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVV2Zk88beY

  • Step

    Yes! Cassandra! Absolutely! (I love this forum. I’m new here, and I keep re-reading it, getting rid of the suffocation. I do worry about trans violence, though. I also talked to a pediatrician today about the sterilizing of youth in gender clinics. It was a real “real heads up” for her.)

  • Step

    Wow! This trans animal better go to a men’s prison!

  • Step

    Don’t fall asleep Danielle! Stay awake and keep shouting!

  • Melody Williams-Daniels

    I have the same problem. My little boys only stop oppressing me when I whip out the doggy treats. You’d be surprised to see how quickly oppression disappears in the face of steak-flavored doggy treats.

    • will

      I feel your pain. 🙂

  • Step

    Danielle, in the last week I’ve been reading so much on other posting sites about lesbians feeling trapped among libfems. They’ve changed their minds on trans inclusion. And they’re scared to speak their minds. They’re worried about losing their jobs. Ugh. I can’t believe the oppression.

  • lk

    Most of the articles don’t even mention that Oneal Morris is a man or is transgender. It’s odd that so many articles are referrring to him as she, her, woman etc…the publications covering this probably don’t want to be accused of transphobia/misgendering.

    I did see one article that stated he is being housed in a men’s prison and throughout the trial prosecutors and the judge referred to Oneal as he.

  • Cassandra

    As I’m sure you know, you just summed up the mindset of traditional MRAs and neo-liberal trans MRAs. No difference at all. When we resist domination we are oppressing them.

  • Tired feminist

    Welcome, sister.

    I’ve seen the same happening in my country. It started in the academia. In my country the academia has a long, sad tradition of being accessible
    only for a small elite (this started to change only recently with the implementation of affirmative actions) and completely disconnected from real world. The first time I heard the terms “transgender” and “gender identity” was from academics (I don’t consider myself one, despite having a college degree, as I don’t work in an university environment) who were up-to-date with feminism published in the US. I was confused but at first I thought “well whatever, they read feminism all day, they must know better”, and for a while I tried to get on board. It was when a male academic, an anthropology grad student, tried to mansplain me that sex was “also a social construct” that I decided this shit had gone too far. Unfortunately, these people have a strong online presence and so managed to gain a lot of influence outside the academia.

    The good news is that 1-we also have fantastic gender-abolitionist feminists; 2-the majority of population has never heard of queer theory to begin with.

  • Tired feminist

    That’s indeed very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

  • Step

    Open your doors, Tired. I’m new at this, but I have some novel ideas. I may be junior varsity. So teach me how to play.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Oh no! I will check the spam folder. I’m not sure how things end up in there — it’s either other users that flag certain comments as spam, or Disqus itself — as often the things that I find in the spam folder are not actually spam. It’s not me who does it, though, so I appreciate your letting me know when it happens!

  • Melanie

    Why are you so deeply invested in denying the fact that female biology is significant to the lives of girls and women living in patriarchy, and in reinforcing sexist gender stereotypes and roles? What’s in it for you?

  • Cassandra

    Well, if they’re buying this bullshit they’re not feminists. That’s what’s so infuriating about this whole “white feminism” thing. The people pushing gender feelz are white, while the majority of the world’s female people being treated horribly are not white. But if you stand up for prostituted, trafficked women of color or women other than white, you’re accused of white feminism.* This is almost exclusively a rich country phenomenon. The irony kills me.

    *Or you’re told you’re being a white savior, butting in where you weren’t asked to butt in. I get that, but I’d hella rather have that leveled at me than try to bury male violence in “sex work” rhetoric or “sex is a social construct” bullshit.

  • Cassandra

    Your comment made me see something in a way I’d never thought about and I was like HOLY SHIT it’s so obvious!

    And that’s the fact that they claim to be “triggered” by discussions of female biology, but want unfettered access to private women’s spaces where women are in states of undress and taking care of female things.

    That would be like an alcoholic being triggered by conversations about partying but then demanding to sit at the best seat at the bar and be served free drinks. Well, maybe that’s not a perfect analogy, but seriously, why do they want to hang around in women’s intimate spaces if they’re so traumatized by female bodies? Hmmm…

    It’s entirely about male domination. That’s all this is and all it ever will be.

  • Cassandra

    “…comes from anti-queer oppression in the FUCKING DARK AGES WHEN THEY BURNED WITCHES AND CONDEMNED HOMOSEXUAL ACTIVITY.”

    I feel compelled to point out that “anti-queer” is not a real thing. “Queer” is an old-school slur lobbed at mostly gay men and offbeat people (though not always a slur for the latter). While I know that “queer” is what gender snowflakes and gender studies peeps call themselves and/or their philosophy today, there was no such thing as “anti-queer” during the witch burning times. Moreover, “queer” (and trans) is actually at odds with homosexuality, just in case you haven’t picked up on that.

  • Aylune B. Papyrus

    You are the one displaying a cruel lack of empathy, Lucas. Your misogyny is shocking. How dare you demand we prioritize the needs of males over our own? How dare you ask women bow to the demands of men ?

  • Aylune B. Papyrus

    “You mean you arent convinced by Lucas’ rational arguments…I mean referring to women as terfs, twats and bigots is an extremely convincing way to get people to support transideology!!”

    Well it works with lots of people apparently… 🙁 Come to think of it, I guess it would make sense for Lucas to think it’s effective.
    I wonder how many women she bullied or threatened into submitting to transgender dogma.

  • Aylune B. Papyrus

    Haaaa merci beaucoup ! This is AWESOME

  • Meghan Murphy

    How do they know they are women? What about anorexic people who ‘know they are fat’? Must we also accept that as true?

  • Miranda

    Maybe it is a personality flaw.

  • Miranda

    What a display of condescension, insult and disingenuousness- your rambling fools nor impresses anyone.

  • Miranda

    A very fine riposte – he won’t learn from it because he has already shown that he understands nothing that is being said here.

  • Miranda

    ‘How are trans women causing problems? They are literally the most vulnerable population on earth.’

    The narcissism of that statement is breathtaking. Tell that to people fleeing war, famine, natural disasters, extreme poverty etc, etc. You are talking about hurt feelings. Maybe it would be healthier for you to look outside your very narrow self obsession and be useful and helpful to those with genuine problems in the wider world.

  • Cassandra

    “The issue is patriarchy as a structure in our society.”

    It IS?! What is this “patriarchy” you speak of?

    “If we are going to talk about sexual violence lets recognize it in its entirety.”… “Lets not play the game of who’s traumatic experience is worse than others.”

    Ooooh! Derailing 101 with a side of self righteousness and a dollop of whataboutery!

    Women are sexually abused far more than any other group and they are abused on the axis of being the female sex. That’s what we talk about here, and it sure as hell ain’t a “game.” I wasn’t talking about Catholic priests abusing boys. While that’s definitely horrible, and yes, a product of patriarchy, it’s not the subject of the discussion and I have no obligation to make it be. We’re allowed to focus on male violence against females and we will continue to; that’s what feminism actually is.

    If you’re concerned with male violence against trans people you’d be much better off lecturing males in the comment section of Breitbart, A Voice for Men or The Guardian.

    Kbye

  • Melanie

    If your enemy is not male violence why did you quote transgender murder rates before? Who do you think is murdering them?

  • Melanie

    It’s a part of our gender identity apparently.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Can you please answer my questions instead of simply trying to derail? (And, for the record, gender dysphoria is a mental disorder, yes. Since we’re playing this game, let’s turn it around: are people who struggle with mental illness or mental disorder somehow less than? Why are you stigmatizing mental illness?)

  • Tired feminist

    We’re not “suggesting” it, we’re saying it.

    Now, your turn. How do they “know” they’re women? You didn’t answer yet.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yes, same, Alienigena. Americans impose their own politics and culture on everyone else, assuming we are all dealing with the exact same circumstances everywhere. It’s maddening.

  • Yisheng Qingwa

    Uh, where is this sauna? I would LOVE to hang with a bunch of women and sweat out this toxic shit I have to absorb every damned day. Damn. Damnity damn.

  • Yisheng Qingwa

    Saving these for my fact-bombs. Thanks.

  • Yisheng Qingwa

    I really love all y’all women here… please consider me your friend. I wish we could rent a cruise ship or something.

  • Melanie

    You think you have problems. I have three cats!

  • Atheist

    “To say, “I didn’t feel privileged,” despite being part of a privileged class of people, speaks to its omnipresent power.”

    I disagree. Privilege isn’t a zero sum all-or-nothing issue. Being privileged in one area of your life doesn’t mean you aren’t struggling in another. Light skin privilege doesn’t protect white women from sexism, and neither does light skin privilege protect white gays or lesbians from homophobia. Light skin privilege didn’t protect Poles and Jews from ethnic cleansing in the gas chambers during the Holocaust. Privilege isn’t a feeling, it’s the way other people and general society treat you.

    *Do people treat you like your thoughts and opinions are worthwhile?

    *Do other people take you seriously?

    *When an injustice happens to you, do other people care?

    *Do other people view you as deserving of work and educational opportunities?

    *Do other people view your success as a positive thing?

    *If you commit a wrongdoing, do people make excuses for you and easily forgive you?

    *Is your personal suffering considered political relevant?

    *Do other people trust you with power and wealth?

    *Do other people respond positively to your ambition?

    If you can say yes to the above, then you’re a privileged person.

    If you are treated as inherently evil and worthless, then you’re not privileged.

  • Meghan Murphy

    will isn’t a man and she is definitely not arguing that white women are the ‘boogymonster’…??

  • Jones

    yes they also did this when they were trying to find the “gay gene” back in the day.

  • Jones

    the irony is that while these people are attacking feminists for not using the pronoun of their choice, trans-people are getting killed at alarming rates. why do we need to debate if trans women or women? can we just simply focus on the fact that they, as adichie has pointed out, should be able to just “be”? i wish we could start from this position instead of this endless debate for who qualifies as what. the more deeply i get into this, the more convinced i am that trans and “cis” people just experience gender very differently.

  • Jones

    i agree 100%. dysphoria is about lack of harmony. maybe they would feel more harmonious if they were allowed to perform feminine identity in a male sexed body, rather than believing the only way they can is if they are in a body that “appears” to be female sexed.

  • Jones

    sometimes truth hurts, no?

  • Jones

    i’ve been “corrected” for using the word “prostitute” instead of “sex worker.” that’s when i knew that i realized that this new brand of feminism wasn’t for me.

  • Melanie

    I’m sorry, but people with one or more cats are literally the most oppressed people ever. That is a fact! ;P

  • Jones

    @ChefLuca:disqus, I hear that you are just trying to “be alive” and “be respected.” Chimamanda said she believed that trans people should just be able to “be.” put aside the language of “cis” and “trans.” can we just start from a basic core element of respecting one another’s basic human right to live and thrive? Adichie is such a strong advocate for LGBT people in places you have never even visited before. you’re fighting a member of your own team.

  • edgySF

    “It is not accurate to assume that until the term “intersectional feminism” came along in the U.S., the women’s movement cared only about the needs and concerns of white, Western, upper-class women.”

    My late mother, founder of my city’s only state-certified DV shelter, absolutely revered Barbara Jordan and Shirley Chisholm when I was a child in the 1970s. She gave me “I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings” when I was in junior high, and “The Color Purple” when I was in high school.

    I honestly do not get where people think that second-wave feminism was only about wealthy white women. I was there, and that was not my personal experience.

    Lately, I’ve found reading the “autobiography” of Dr. King (a collection of first-person essays assembled by the MLK Foundation) to be the perfect antidote to “Trumpfluenza,” and recently read a passage where Dr. King remarked how the civil rights movement comprised mostly middle-class & educated blacks. He wanted to expand the movement to include poor people (black & white).

    Do the third wavers hiss at Dr. King’s movement like they hiss at second-wavers?

    Is he completely dismissed as classist because his movement organically arose from educated & financially secure blacks?

    My late mom didn’t have it easy as a radical feminist in the 1970s. Feminists never do. She & her sisters *deserve* our respect. After all, she did all she could to make it ILLEGAL FOR HUSBANDS TO HIT THEIR WIVES in my city.

    BTW, I was “gnc” as a child…and am a lesbian today. Mom gave me the book “Free to be You & Me” back in the day & taught me the difference between feminism & femininity. I AM SO THANKFUL that I was FREE to be myself as a child. To me, that is TRUE LOVE.