Gay men aren’t special

Powerful men need to be accused by dozens of women before there is a chance their careers will be affected. Kevin Spacey’s career seems to have come to an abrupt end on the word of one man.

Gay men have long been slandered as being defective. Not “real” men; maybe even (horrors) like women. But gay men are just regular men, like all the rest. They just happen to be attracted to other men. As long as any kind of social record of same-sex attracted men could have existed, we have found evidence that they were there with everyone else.

Men who are attracted to women might be afraid of supposedly “acting like gay men,” as we understand that today, just like they’re afraid to supposedly “act like women.” That men can be socialized out of displaying what might be considered feminine aspects of a normal human personality doesn’t mean anything besides that human beings like to fit in with their neighbours and not stand out too much.

Gay men aren’t special. They are not better, not worse, not gentler, not more dangerous, than any other group of men. They are just men who are attracted to other men.

But this thing about men being attracted to other men, all by itself, causes a lot of people to really freak out. They worry because, deep down, they know how men act towards people for whom they profess romantic interest, and they worry about the men and boys they know, or perhaps they worry about themselves, if they are heterosexual men.

The reason people panic over the existence of gay men is because they know how all men are socialized, and they fear that “normal” male socialization will be directed towards less suitable targets: men and boys.

This is homophobia at its most basic, and it’s grounded in the misogynistic premise that the correct target of male aggression (allegedly romantic) is a woman or a girl. This homophobia is proof that people know that women’s complaints about male harassment are legitimate, that our fears of male violence are legitimate, but they want us to put up with it anyway because tolerating that is what they think women and girls are for.

Every time you see homophobic panic among men who don’t care about the safety of women and girls from male violence, you see them reveal themselves as thinking that women and girls deserve that treatment.

The easy proof is in Western attitudes towards “child marriage” in our own countries, both in history and presently, and the treatment of men who violate girls instead of boys.

For instance, how many times have you heard a male historical figure decried as a “pederast” for sexually exploiting a boy whom, if the child were a girl, the adult man could simply have married and assaulted daily under the full blessing of the law? Probably at least once.

How many times, if you have studied European history much at all, have you heard of aristocratic or royal children being born to girls who were married off so young that, if they were boys, the adult man who violated them should have stood out in your mind as a singularly wicked criminal? Straight men have not gained a reputation as pedophiles based on this practice, indeed, it mainly passes without notice.

Are you horrified at Anthony Rapp’s age — only 14, when Kevin Spacey is alleged to have made inappropriate advances towards him?

Consider if you have ever worried that Kevin Spacey, or any man, could simply marry a 14-year-old girl in over half of US states if her parents were persuaded to agree. There are countries like Tanzania where, in some areas, nine and 12-year-old girls can be abducted and forcibly taken as so-called wives for a simple payment of livestock to their parents. But if you would call that socially backwards, what do you call the US where forcibly arranged and underage marriages are still allowed? What should we think about the persistence of Warren Jeffs’ Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS) cult?

Now that same-sex marriage is legal in all 50 states, this playing field is theoretically even. But the sorts of parents who are likeliest to agree to the marriage of a young daughter don’t have a tradition of marrying their sons to older men, which would be just as bad, but is unlikely.

Kevin Spacey has now been accused of the sexual harassment of a boy. The story was barely a day old when his 2017 Emmy was revoked, and Netflix hastened to announce that his popular show, House of Cards, was going to be cancelled after its next season. It’s good that people believed his victim and took it seriously, since other young men making similar accusations have not been believed in past decades.

Here’s what troubles me. Woody Allen and Roman Polanski still have careers after far more serious allegations. In Polanski’s case, he was convicted of raping a minor. His films are still considered more important than his torture of at least one girl. R. Kelly still has a career because he picked black girls to prey on — victims whom very few people believe or care about.

Most powerful men, even as #MeToo continues to reveal the sadly commonplace nature of men’s harassment of women, seem to need to be accused by dozens of women before there is even a chance that their careers will be affected. Spacey’s career seems to have come to an abrupt end on the word of one man. This is a worse effective ratio of value assigned to women’s and men’s respective testimony than is formally called for under the sort of Sharia Islamic law that assigns women’s words half the value of a man’s.

Bill Cosby had to be accused by 35 women to really make it clear to the media that he was a dangerous person. The math says that the word of each of those 35 women ended up being worth about 2.8 per cent of the value of Cosby’s word, that of one man maintaining his innocence. I am not in favor of any establishment of religious law, but one might well think how curious it is that a system of formal equality could result in women’s word being effectively taken at about a tenth the value it’s supposed to have in a system formalizing our inequality.

Why isn’t the word of one woman that she was raped enough grounds on which to judge a straight man, but an incident of harassment can be enough if the man is gay?

The fear of backlash among the LGB community based on Spacey’s decision to come out at a time when that acts as a deflection from this story is grounded solidly in experience. But only because straight men think of themselves, and are widely thought of, as better and safer company than gay or bisexual men. This is only because the crimes of straight men against children are naturalized, and the innocence of a girl is seen as a prize for men rather a trust she is owed by every adult.

I expect that there are a lot of straight men who watch “barely legal” films of sexual exploitation, who sexualize cartoon images of girls, who stare blatantly at young girl’s bodies in public or harass them on the street, who are disgusted by the Spacey story because they think of themselves as young men and think that it could have been them. It’s obvious that they extend no such empathy to the girls they disturb — no similar horror to their own fetishization of underage girls.

But straight men aren’t special and better than gay men. Not any more than white male citizens of the US are better than male citizens with darker skin, or any type of male immigrants. They are all men, like the rest, and they’re raised to believe it’s their right to dominate others. They are all encouraged to approach romantic relationships by seeking inferiors to impress rather than peers to build with, and it’s a testimony to human decency that many of them resist going that direction.

In the end, the Spacey story isn’t more surprising than the Polanski story. It shouldn’t be. Men are too often like this. None of them are special.

Natasha Chart
Natasha Chart

Natasha Chart is an online organizer and feminist living in the United States. She does not recant her heresy.

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  • Rachael

    Fantastic article, thank you. It’s horrible that it’s so common place that girls and women are abused that it’s just become part of our culture, yet when it’s a male it’s suddenly crime of the century. My heart breaks for all of them, girls and boys, women and men, who are abused.

    • kfwkfw

      It makes me sick to my stomach to think of all the leg work men set women out to do, just to get the basic decency & consideration that they themselves have never been without.

      • Hekate Jayne

        And they crycry about how we hate them.

        I wonder why we don’t hate them more.

        They know that we don’t hate them. It is another male reversal. If we actually hated them, the streets would be filled with their blood.

    • kfwkfw

      I wrote this in another comment, but abuse of daughters by their fathers has been successfully diminished down into “daddy issues”…”daddy issues” are off-limits the way periods are. It’s simply…not fun! Even so…still capable of being a fetish or tool for jacking off.

  • Cassandra

    “I expect that there are a lot of straight men who watch “barely legal” films of sexual exploitation, who sexualize cartoon images of girls, who stare blatantly at young girl’s bodies in public or harass them on the street, who are disgusted by the Spacey story because they think of themselves as young men and think that it could have been them. It’s obvious that they extend no such empathy to the girls they disturb — no similar horror to their own fetishization of underage girls.”

    I wish I could find words for how powerful this is, Ms. Chart. I am crying. Thank you.

    • kfwkfw

      I almost quoted the same exact paragraph. This is so true.

  • JCortese

    “This is homophobia at its most basic, and it’s grounded in the
    misogynistic premise that the correct target of male aggression
    (allegedly romantic) is a woman or a girl.”

    Finally. FINALLY. Someone else said this, someone who isn’t me. Someone else said that men treat sex like taking a shit, and that the real horror of homosexuality is that they will treat other men like toilets when Nature already made women and girls for that purpose.

    This website makes me feel like maybe, just maybe, I’m not out of my mind. Someone else is seeing these things and saying them.

    I’m not kidding. Since about 2008 — since the 08 Democratic primary, really — I have felt as if everything I’d ever thought in my life and every friend I ever had was washed away like sand at high tide. I felt like all the people I ever knew, most of whom called themselves feminists, suddenly had their masks slip off and I saw the sewage that was beneath them. I lost all sense of trust in my own judgment and every friend I had. It’s been a long, dark, nasty, ugly, lonely ten years.

    You people on this website are my lifeline, and I only recently discovered you. Maybe I’m not insane. I’m not the only one who sees this stuff. Maybe I really do have a tribe. I love and thank each and every one of you, from the bottom of my black, shrivelled, feminist heart. I’m seriously not kidding when I say that you and the other ACTUAL FEMINISTS I’ve only recently discovered may have saved my life.

    • FierceMild

      Welcome, sister. You are not alone, you are not crazy, and you certainly aren’t the killjoy.

      • Hekate Jayne

        We take turns at being the killjoy.

        It is a substantial part of being a humorless feminist.

        I will let you know when my turn is over.

        • FierceMild

          That’s cool. I totally Bogarted the joy-killing on the Metoo thread with the MRA. You take a nice long turn, my black hearted sister.

        • Lala Musings

          I don’t know about “humorless killjoy”. One of the reasons I keep coming back to this site is to read your comments. I quite enjoy your sharp wit, although granted I tend to find acerbic people funny anyway. It of course helps that I don’t think I’ve ever read something from you I didn’t agree or identify with. May your turn never be over. Kindred spirit!

          • Robert Gonzalez

            I’m totally a Hekate Jayne and FierceMild fan. Just saying. 🙂

          • Hekate Jayne

            I appreciate your kind words, thanks. 🙂

            I do tend to have a darker sense of humor and I am really sarcastic. All of that comes from anger. And frustration.

            And those things come from how much I know that I could enjoy and appreciate males, if they could stop being vicious, violent, entitled assholes. Their ignorance could be endearing. But their penchant for violence makes them deadly. Stupid and violent is a dangerous combination.

            I am glad that you are here. Welcome, sister!

          • JCortese

            “And those things come from how much I know that I could enjoy and
            appreciate males, if they could stop being vicious, violent, entitled
            assholes.”

            YES. A lot of my own anger comes from knowing how nice it would feel to be able to just love someone — really put 100% into it and care for them knowing it wouldn’t be turned into a pile of shit that my face would get ground into. I’ve said elsewhere that women are like society’s magical transmogrifying toilets — you dump shit, pain, and degradation into us, and turn the magical feminine crank, and hand lotion-scented benefit of the doubt comes out.

            My transmogrifier broke some time ago. I never got it fixed, and I never will. But it would still feel so nice to extend love and kindness to someone of my own free will instead of as a result of acting my feminine role after having sewage dumped down me. That, I REFUSE to do. And if it means I die alone, then that’s what it means. Most women die alone anyhow, after years of being used and sucked dry by everyone around them. My mom is 83, and most of the women in her senior’s club are still getting used up by husbands, sons, and brothers like fucking snotrags and ignored by everyone but sisters and daughters when they start to need help themselves.

            I’ve turned into Winston Smith — the best victory I can expect is to simply die hating them.

          • Hekate Jayne

            Males live much longer than they would naturally when we take care of them.

            I read a post from a woman about her parents, who were in their 80s. She said that her father sat on his fat lazy ass all day long while her elderly mother waited on him hand and foot, brought him his meds, cooked him 3 meals daily (no cold cereal or canned soup for the king, don’t ya know). And he still managed to talk to her mother like she was shit.

            A conversation ensued, and we came to the conclusion that males have used our free labor to extend their pitiful lives. If they didn’t force us into servitude, they would die a lot sooner.

            It goes all the way back to the beginning of this country (USA). White males sat on their fat lazy asses and stole the labor of everyone else, the women and slaves, and got rich doing it. They stole from everyone else while denying everyone else any opportunity at all, and then have the audacity to brag about superior they are.

            Males are a unique thing. They still steal all of the resources, hold our rights, hoard all of the advantages for themselves, and they call themselves “superior” for it.

            They know that they are pathetic parasites. But they don’t care. They don’t have to. Not when they win every time, and will retain the power to do so with force and violence.

          • kfwkfw

            “society’s magical transmogrifying toilets”

            These words & this concept is great. I very much have felt & thought the way that you are here.

          • kfwkfw

            You are really describing this well.

    • Hekate Jayne

      I have a black heart, too! 😉

      Welcome. I am happy to meet you.

    • Cassandra

      You’re not alone. Hang out with us! We’re the actual funny feminists and we know what feminisim actually is.

      • FierceMild

        Exactly. Feminism is being super hairy, shouty man-haters with shaved heads, orthopedic shoes, and a dedicated pair of dick-scissors on hand at all times. Down with hygiene and the Patriarchy!

      • JCortese

        Thanks — to all of you who commented. I mean it. I hope to be funny someday, but I think I have a decade worth of angry, hopeless, betrayed pus built up that still has to drain from the boil for the moment, and I don’t know how long it’ll take before that’s done.

    • Amy

      When O got the nom over HRC is exactly when I started questioning it all too. It took a while for me to see past lib fem still, but i feel like that was one of the big moments for me too. I can only hope people start to see this with her lost to 45 too and we women can finally start to change things. Right now i worry there’s still not enough of us that see through the fog to make a major impact. This has been such a sloooow process it gets overwhelming sometimes.

    • Lala Musings

      I’ve been lurking around here for months now and feel the same way as you JC. It’s a relief to find like-minded people. It feels a little bit like coming home (intellectually, emotionally etc).

    • Robert Gonzalez

      You’re not out of your mind. And it probably doesn’t mean much, but I’m one male that agrees with everything every radical feminist (that I’m aware of) has ever written or said. It’s strange, but I feel like after all these years I’ve finally found my home, too. I can’t read a single popular article anymore or listen to other people around me without immediately seeing how misogynistic the writing or speech is. This is the only place I can count on that is not like that.

      Thank you for not backing down and going with the status quo. Thank you for embracing the truth. This might sound cheesy, but you and all the other women on here are very special. All of you see the world for what it really is. And if you see the problem, that means something can be done about it. It takes a lot of strength to be a woman, but it takes even more strength to trust in what you know, even when everything else tells you that you are crazy for believing it. You’re in good company here.

    • kfwkfw

      I like your perspective!

  • TC98

    These were some of my initial thoughts when I read the story about Spacey, and it’s honestly quite telling how the victim’s allegations were largely taken seriously as opposed to the many, many women who come out and are snubbed by society. For the record I’m not disparaging anyone, I’m glad that the victim’s claims were met with the type of action and gravity that situations like this merit, though I still can’t get over how strange the whole thing is.

    I think radical feminism gets a bad rap based on how cutting its criticisms of society, in particular men, can be. The thing is that a lot of the main points brought up by proponents are legitimate and need to be said. Thank you to this publication for continuing to speak out and bring attention to these issues. You do exactly what actual feminism should do: protect women and women’s rights.

  • FierceMild

    And as we all know the storyline and actual scenes acted out in American Beauty between Kevin Spacey and a female child were high art.

    • Cassandra

      That’s the first thing that went through my mind — and how normalized it was.

  • Hekate Jayne

    Thank you.

  • Sashimi73

    Thank you for saying this! I was thinking the exact same thing, that why do the women who accused Cosby seem to have their words valued at a fraction of that under Sharia law? (I do not advocate for religious law as well, which is just a patriarchal mind control system) I was just so shocked and disheartened, but also encouraged that at least their collective words mattered. Standing up to clap!

  • Polly MacDavid

    I said it IMMEDIATELY.

  • Alienigena

    Males are males. Sexual orientation, gender identification, self-concept as progressive nice guy, none of these matter ultimately. It has always bothered me that people expect that girls deserve less protection (except perhaps to protect male or family honour) than boys from sexual predators. That girls mature earlier physically in some cases so are somehow more suitable targets for predatory males. Physical maturity does not equate in any way to emotional or psychological maturity. The fact that girls can still marry at very young ages in the USA with parental approval is very disturbing to me. I don’t know if this is the case in Canada, I would hope not but this CBC story indicates that underage girls are married by circumventing Canadian law and marrying in the USA.

    http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/blog/the-law-and-underage-marriage

    I know that some of the victims of Jeffs family (Mormons who engage in polygamy) came from Canada, probably BC. And Canada’s own proud polygamist, Winston Blackburn admits to marrying 3 girls who were only 15 at the time of marriage. He has 22 wives in total.

    http://www.vancouversun.com/entertainment/Daphne+Bramham+Canada+notorious+polygamist+leader+admits+under+oath+marrying+child/9619976/story.html

    Statutory rape is what it is, you can’t negotiate yourself out of that charge because you are married to your victim.

    Protecting men’s right to abuse women and girls, without consequence, seems paramount in Canadian law as it does in American law. After all, their legal system is based on British Common Law, which is primarily focused on the rights of property owners and given that women and girls are still seen as property by many men, it seems the law just reflects societal values (although those values are rarely enunciated outright in public forums).

  • Robert Gonzalez

    I don’t think that your attitude is unreasonable, Hekate. You really don’t owe men a damn thing, especially when most of them have caused you so much trouble for having the audacity to be born a woman.

    I’m the victim of male violence and I still don’t care as much about male-on-male violence as I do male-on-female violence. Why? Because male-on-female violence is pretty much normalized. You know shit’s scary when people hardly see the trouble with it. That’s why my attention is predominantly focused on violence directed at women and girls. The problem is men.

  • Missy

    I definitely agree. I find myself thinking “at least it wasn’t a girl/woman” this time when I hear about a case where the victim of sexual assault was a boy or a man. I don’t want to have that thought, but it comes from how rare it is for the victim of sexual assault to be male instead of female. It’s almost like a sense of relief that for once it wasn’t a woman or girl being targeted for her sex which is so disgustingly normalized in society. If males want to sexually abuse each other, then it’s males that need to come up with a solution. Women have our hands full with the violence men commit on us already, why should we have to take on solving the problems they create against themselves too? If the perpetrators were women that would be a different story, but they’re not, they’re other men. Men need to handle their own shit instead of piling more on us.

    • Robert Gonzalez

      ” If males want to sexually abuse each other, then it’s males that need to come up with a solution. Women have our hands full with the violence men commit on us already, why should we have to take on solving the problems they create against themselves too?”

      Exactly. You couldn’t have said it better. Men are used to exerting minimal effort to get what they want. I consider myself a feminist ally and not a feminist because it is not my movement. It is your movement and needs to remain focused on women. Men need to come up with their own solutions for their intragender issues.

      As far as men needing to focus on women’s issues — simply put, most men have done nothing to end violence against women or help their sisters up in the world. It’s high time that we men do something about it. I have been the victim of brutal male sexual violence and have also seen its horrible impacts on the women and girls I’ve met throughout my life. This cannot continue to be minimized or ignored.

  • Kiwipally

    I agree, I don’t give a shit about male-on-male violence. Their problem to solve, not mine. And also it’s a mere fraction of the abuse they heap onto girls and women.

  • Danielle Matheson

    That’s pretty much how I feel. Men have all the social, economic and political power to stop male violence. They don’t. They don’t care. They only “care” when it’s to shut women up. Or for us to put in the labor to fix it for them. Which I’m tired of.

  • FierceMild

    Sister, I hear you. I understand you. I’m not in the same place, but I know what put you there.

    I sometimes think if men were not violent towards other men, but only towards women, their behavior would never be checked or criticized at all.

  • Danielle Matheson

    Exactly. Woody Allen is a piece of garbage. Worse, but I’m exhausted and that’s taking over my ability to convey my anger.

    It saddens me that people mocked Dylan Farrow for writing her open letter to him. That Kate Winslet wouldn’t speak out against him. I’m happy her brother, Ronan Farrow (who apparently is actually Frank Sinatra’s son) disowned his father and changed his name.

  • FierceMild

    I saw American Beauty in the theatre while living abroad and it was like a gut-punch. My parent’s protective conservatism meant that as a child and young teen I was never exposed to that sort of thing being presented as acceptable at all, much less being touted as art. It sickened me. Worse, the (male) friend I had gone to see it with just couldn’t understand why I was so physically repulsed and saddened by it.

  • JCortese

    I’ve often said that the male view of life is that it’s like a video game — they’re all assigned more or fewer game pieces during the game, and the point of the game is to violate as many other men’s game pieces as possible, while protecting their own from the other guys.

    Except the game pieces are PEOPLE.

  • etoffe

    No one’s career should abruptly come to an end on the word of another person. Many, if not most, people seem to have forgotten that.

    • Hekate Jayne

      Bill cosby, Roman Polanski, Casey Affleck, David bowie, Jerry Lee Lewis, Chuck Barry, Steven Tyler, and I could go on.

      None of them had their careers ruined. Quite the opposite, and most of them sexually assaulted or raped multiple girls and women.

      Spacey is going to be just fine, too. Males always are.

      So who are you referencing? Because I am interested in hearing all about how a dude’s career was ruined over the word of one person. Especially if that accuser was a woman.

  • Hanakai

    Since the days of ancient Greece, gay male culture has insisted on its right to sexually exploit boy children. In ancient Greece, the male homosexuals targeted powerless male slave children. Gay male culture does not even hide its tolerance for and advocacy of adult males using boy children for sexual exploitation.

    Consider the a gay male Seattle politician, Ed Murray, ran for and was elected mayor, even though his background included abusing teen boys, even though the State of Oregon years earlier had recommended that foster children not be placed with him. He had such arrogance in thinking that his history of exploiting boy children and homeless youth would never come to light. Now he has been sued by numerous of his victims and Murray had to resign as mayor.

    Consider also that gay men founded NAM/BLA, the North American Man/Boy Love Association, an organization of male homosexuals that is a pedophile and pederasty advocacy organization. NAM/BLA advocates adult men having sex with boy children. The organization works to abolish age-of-consent laws criminalizing adult sexual involvement with minors and campaigns for the release of men who have been jailed for sexual conduct with minors. The even have a website at https://www.nambla.org/

    The reality is that homosexual men are males and, like other males, believe they are entitled to sexual access to powerless children and teens. Many lesbians and feminists embrace male homosexuals and see them as allies of women and lesbians, but I think lesbians and women have no real common cause with gay men. Homosexual men are not our allies, they are just another class of male predators.

  • Just Passing Through

    Yep, I’m one of those that agrees with you on this. Of course it would be great if they would just stop inflicting violence altogether on anyone/thing that would be great but we know that ain’t gonna happen.

  • M. Zoidberg

    If he wasn’t such a vile misogynist, I might feel sorry for him. But his dehumanisation of our sex under the guise of “journalism” has evaporated any sympathy I have for the little idiot.

    • Anon

      Milo is a provocateur and an attention seeker, I’m not sure how sincere he is tbh. Yeah, he says misogynist things, but he says horrible things about everyone who he considers “SWJs”.

  • Bleeps3

    It’s gotten extremely hard to give a shit anymore. Men sure as fuck don’t repay the favor.

    • Hekate Jayne

      Males purposely keep their violence going because it keeps US in line.

      It is one of only a few reasons that they pretend to care when the recipient of violence is a 14 year old boy is so they can be all “it happens to the menz, too, tho!!”

      • Anon

        That’s disgusting, ugh!

    • Danielle Matheson

      Exactly. My favorite question is “what have men done for women?”. And the answer is nothing.

      • FierceMild

        Unfortunately, the question “what have men done to women?” has a much longer answer.

  • Blazing Fire

    Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes! My thoughts exactly too!!…. I’m with you (as do a lot of others here, who have replied before me:) )
    As Bleeps3 and others below said, the favor doesn’t get repaid – never in history.
    I sure don’t want any of us to be the next Joan of Arc who goes out of her way to help the (male) soldiers/ king/lords/whoever against their powerful enemies & end up getting burnt alive on the stake by the very “people” she helped.
    Even otherwise, masses of female victims are dying in the emergency ward, and please don’t ask me to go and attend to the couple of males just blowing their noses in the regular waiting room.

    • Hekate Jayne

      Here is how it goes.

      Me: Males. Stop assaulting/raping us, please.

      Males: But we rape and kill each other. What about that?

      Me: I don’t care if you rape and kill each other. The vast majority of violence to women is committed by you. Stop it.

      Males: You are a cold hearted, evil bitch! How can you call yourself a feminist when you ignore the males that we rape and kill? Don’t they matter?

      Me: Nope. Not really. Stop harming women and girls in massive numbers. Then maybe I will give a shit.

      Males: Women like you are the problem because you should care about all victims.

      At this point, I either stop responding or I tell them that if they really think that *I* am the problem, then their reasoning abilities have shit the bed, and perhaps they need a snack and a nap.

      I have never had a male admit responsibility for pretty much anything. They immediately divert attention, or notallmenz, or whataboutthemenz, or it doesn’t happen, or blahblahblah.

      They are either brain numbingly stupid or they know exactly what they are doing by manipulating, diverting, derailing, dodging. And we all know which one it is, which is another reason that I don’t care about what they do to each other. They obviously don’t care. But I am evil if I don’t care?

      Male logicks!

      • Marla

        I once had an anthropology teacher in college who stated women should be thankful for rape because it is a “survival instinct in males” in order to save the human species.

        I dropped his class the next day.

        • Hekate Jayne

          That kind of male logicks can’t be reasoned with.

        • Missy

          Ugh! That freak and any man who thinks like that should automatically be locked away for the safety of women. But in order for that to happen the world would have to care about the safety of women….

      • Missy

        They’re so damn condescending, hypocritical, and full of shit. I honestly don’t understand how any woman can even bother with these impossible creatures anymore, they don’t get it because they don’t WANT to get it. What they do want is to keep doing what they do to women and getting away with it. Women need to cut men out of their lives as much as they can. Men are becoming less human by the day if that’s even possible.

      • Anon

        I mean, male sexual abuse victims do matter and I think they should be included in feminist criticism of male violence. Toxic masculinity and violent male sexuality harms boys and girls, but mostly girls. I heard a horrible story today about the sexual abuse of a boy. Male children matter just as much as female children (and yes I know society cares more about male children, I’m just saying that as feminists, we should care about male victims too).

  • Blazing Fire

    Loved that line too! Piercing truth.. Very well said, Ms. Natasha Chart!

  • Hekate Jayne

    You said:
    “…and this mean-ass vindictive grudge-holding middle-aged bitch will never forget it.”

    Ok, don’t stand too close to me, please.

    People will not be able to tell us apart.

    • JCortese

      I’m beginning to suspect that, yes. 🙂 I can’t overstate how much less alone it makes me feel. A decade of exile from my own species and gender hasn’t been pleasant. And let’s face it, it’s been longer than a decade if I’m really going to be honest.

  • Wren

    “and this mean-ass vindictive grudge-holding middle-aged bitch will never forget it.”

    SAME.

  • JCortese

    “I do NOT CARE about male on male violence.”

    Neither do I.

    And they don’t really care about it, either. They only ever bring it up to shout us down when we starting kicking up shit over being raped, murdered, and having our lives and careers ripped into pieces by them for lulz.

    If they care so deeply about man-on-man violence, they’ve got ALL the money and ALL the power. They could fucking well do something about it. We’re busy.

  • Amy

    Please don’t ever forget it Sister! Women need to wake up and realize this, so keep shouting it from the rooftops. When more and more women finally stop being in denial about misogyny is when we can hope to make it better for ourselves.

  • Missy

    I agree with everything you said but just wanted to correct that John Wayne Gacy was actually a closeted bisexual https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy
    Also wanted to add that a lot of men who molest prepubescent boys are actually either straight when it comes to their sexual orientation, or don’t have a sexual orientation at all and just have a kink for little boys. If they’re heterosexual, they usually prey on both boys and girls, and if boys are the main victims it’s because they have easier access to them. I’m not saying that gay men aren’t pedophiles or defending the ones who are, just pointing out that it’s common for straight men to molest boys as well.

    But the main victims of pedos are by far little girls, and unlike with boy children, raping and even marrying girl children is widely accepted around the world. It infuriates me to no end how girls aren’t even allowed a childhood because of the sexual deviance of grown ass men. Males will prey on our innocence as early as possible, inflicting trauma on us at a very young age. That way they can keep us subordinated and easier to control throughout our lives. The more I see the sexualized objectification of young girls, the more I just want to give up on this f**ked up patriarchal hellhole of a world.

    • Hekate Jayne

      There is a documentary on YouTube about nambla. I can’t recall the name, but it can’t be that hard to find.

      It was from the 90s. The were a couple of things that struck me about those dudes.

      One is that they insisted that age is a “social construct”. One pedo made flyers and was handing them out about how age of consent is prudery, and that prudes demand age of consent because they are sex haters.

      His flyers were not well received. As one woman was walking away, he said something to the effect that the puritanical view of sex being dirty would not hold up and that people were becoming “progressive” enough to realize that age is just a social construct.

      And I thought to myself, is this Nambla? Or transvestites? Because the language is identical.

  • Missy

    Exactly. If they want to be such violent and sadistic pieces of trash then they can go rape and kill each other and leave women and girls the hell alone! I’m so sick and tired of women being the main victims of male depravity. Why should we be punished for their psychopathic sexual and dominance issues? If these assholes refuse to control their dicks, then they can just take it out on each other instead or just kill themselves.

  • Hekate Jayne

    Agreed.

    The thing with Cosby is that he was rapey a long time ago, back in the 90s, and males quickly shut it down. If males had not rushed and rallied to protect him, a lot of women would have been spared. His career might be suffering now, but he has had 20+ additional years, and he was rapey during all of that.

    Certainly, males put up the appearance of shock in cases like Weinstein. But there is all of this shit with dudes, all saying supportive things and acting oh so very concerned and outraged.

    But there won’t be any real repercussions or consequences. There never are.

    And then with dudes like Steven Tyler, who basically purchased a little girl from her parents so that he could have a set of school girl fuckholes that could legally travel with him? No one even batted an eye. Because that is what girls are for in a patriarchy.

  • Hekate Jayne

    I have never heard any woman, anywhere, talk about how it is important to keep the human species going.

    What the fuck kind of bullshit is that to worry about? Why does anyone care if people remain on the earth?

    Males are murdering the planet, just like they destroy everything else. They use it, mine it, take what they want from it with no regard for the damage that they purposely do, all for their own ends/interests.

    Males have no love, care or respect for the earth (or anything else). But they are obsessed with making sure there will always be males to torture it.

  • Cassandra

    I hope you don’t think this behavior is peculiar to Hollywood. Males are fucking scumbags in every walk of life.

  • FierceMild

    Slow clap. That is awesome. I have a unicorn, but I’d never replace my mister if he R-U-N-N-O-F-T.

  • FierceMild

    I fall firmly in the socialization camp m’self. I think it’s for a few reasons:

    1) I’ve helped raise several boys from infancy to young-adulthood (not my children) and I watched the dehumanization happening to them. In some cases I even saw the moments of significance occur. I don’t think this excuses what they do, but it is learned to a degree at least.

    2) Not all cultures have men who do toxic masculinity the same way. They all have some brand of toxic masculinity, but if it were innate I think it would manifest uniformly.

    3) I have not noticed less of a will to violence in females, just less commission of violence. I think contributing factors are a lack of encouragement and opportunity to apply violence, the teaching of other methods of handling conflict, the societal expectation of self-control, and severe social repercussions of violating the non-violent norm for females. In some cases this socialization results in less of a will to violence in maturity, but it often manifests as self harm or self-destructive behaviors instead (which are still forms of violence). Then there’s the fact that we would typically loose a toe-to-toe exchange of violence with a man, which speaks for itself as a form of discouragement.

    4) There is also that troop of baboons that went bonobo when the dominant aggressive males died of assholery and have stayed that way ever since even though plenty more males have joined the troop from other baboon troops: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/13/science/no-time-for-bullies-baboons-retool-their-culture.html

    5) I know enough non-violent males who were raised exclusively or almost exclusively by women to give me pause.

    Anyway, those are some of my reason for believing that male violence is socialized (and that female non-violence is also socialized) either in whole, or in large part.

    • Hekate Jayne

      All very good points, and they all make sense.

      And that about the baboons is interesting. I do wonder what kind of “male assholery” that they died of.

      I have spent exactly zero time around babies and/or kids, so I have no experience there.

      But I have been around quite a few lesbians and lesbian spaces, and have heard them talk about raising kids. And the general consensus is that no matter who raises boys, that the majority of them turn out as misogynist shitbags.

      Just as an example, I was raised to be a help meet. A virginal (LOL, please, lol), pure, compliment to a male.

      I was socialized as an object. But even when I was little, and even when I didn’t rebel as an early teen, I knew that wasn’t *me*. I didn’t know who I would become, but I knew that it wasn’t that. I went along until I got old enough to not have to go along. And it was intensive training.

      There are women that went through the same training that rejected it loudly and early, and some embraced it. I was very intensely socialized into this very specific thing.

      But I rejected it. I didn’t reject it out of knowing any differently, not at first. But I resigned myself to burn in hell because fuck that shit.

      Why did I reject It? Even knowing that I was going to burn in hell (lol)?

      I think that I rejected it because I had an innate aversion to it. I rejected it at an immense personal cost, but I just could not embrace it. And not for any reason that I knew of or could verbalize. But I did it.

      And a few males will reject the worst of the male socialization because they just can’t embrace it. They just can’t with the violence, the sexism, the stupidity.

      I guess that I just kind of feel like we are who we are, and there is not a lot of changing going on.

      But none of that really matters. We all have choices and males choose their behavior, whether it is socialization, nature, neither of both.

      • FierceMild

        I was socialized the same way; I also have three sisters so I had some opportunity to observe differential susceptibilty to socialization among different personalities raised in the same house.

        Each of us rejected the idea that we were some sort of natural second place, but we none of us immediately rejected the idea that other girls who were not us were meant for that helpmeetery. That took a loooooooong time to unpack. The amount of internalized misogyny in me is still somewhat staggering and my sisters are far worse off. Two of them accepted the role of sex object and within that choice it is easy to spot the bone-deep fear – and sometimes outright agreement – that the misogynists are right and they really are substantively less valuable then males. The third sister took on the role of superior moral rectitude and places herself (and by extension all morally erect [gigglesnort] women) above the level of mere men. It is, of course, still playing out.

        As to the douche-baggery of little boys I would observe that the parent(s) raise them within a cultural context. There’s only so much you can do to mitigate constant social messaging from television, print media, advertising, teachers, friends, etc. Especially if, as I would imagine some lesbian mothers do, one is giving them a version of looking at the world that questions their right to dominate it and all other sources say they should be on top.

  • Leo

    I think it’s true in a way – we have to draw a line somewhere, and so how we do that isn’t completely objective. Here in Britain sixteen year olds are fully over the age of consent, in some states of the US they are not. But what the pedo-defenders deliberately refuse to understand is that just because the line may not be an entirely objective thing, is in a way socially constructed, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t draw one.

    • Missy

      Here in Canada the age of consent used to be 14 but was changed to 16, and I believe that when it comes to minors, the only way it can be considered consensual is if the person is within a 5 year age difference. So a man over 21 who engages in sexual contact with a 16 year old girl will still be charged with statutory rape. Of course that still doesn’t stop them from trying. What’s a little jail time, (if they even serve any which is unlikely), when you can ruin a young girl’s life.

  • Leo

    In general, yes, but I’m not sure, it could maybe really end up too easy to abuse – remember the incident of the MRAs filing false rape reports? Those were obviously false and not that targeted, they were just aiming to cause hassle, but they could be aiming to be more malicious, they lie all the time without compunction already. If the accusation isn’t made though the legal system -not that I blame victims for not reporting, of course- it’s easier to do.

    • FierceMild

      I’m thinking here of formal accusation through either the legal system or through whatever system is in place at a specific place of work.

      Typically the man offending is in a relative position of power over the person reporting. This is not acceptable.

  • Hekate Jayne

    I hope that you don’t think that I am dismissing your feelings or minimizing them, because I don’t mean what I am about to say in that way.

    You know what is miles better than a man?????

    Well, probably lots of things. Like fried chicken. Chocolate pie. Cherry pie. OOO,OOO ice cream. Pizza. With extra cheese.

    I could go on with the food forever, but also, warm socks. Electric blankets. Coffee.

    But really. DOGS.

    I love my Nigel, and all, but my dogs. They have been and are such pure, sweet little spirits, and they have added so much to my life.

    I don’t really know if another person has ever really loved me, even though they said it.

    But my dogs? No doubt. Absolutely no doubt that they have all loved me. It really is a wonderful thing, the relationship between a human and a dog.

    Plus, they are not idiots. And they can follow basic instruction.

    I (probably) won’t always have a man. But I will always have a dog.

  • Missy

    I disagree about the bisexual part. They’re only bisexual if they’re attracted to both women and other adult men. Straight, gay, or bi males that molests boys, girls, or both boys and girls are all pedophiles which is not a sexual orientation.

    Except for the obvious genital differences, a prepubescent girl and a prepubescent boy have similar bodies. Even if a pedophile prefers girls, he’ll “settle” for boys too, especially if he has easier access to them. We’re talking about men here, they really don’t care how they get their rocks off as long as they do.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I agree re: dogs! There is no man I could love as much as I do my little doggie…

  • Mmmeee

    Both I think, honestly, but this is never an excuse because we have to be in control whatever…

    • Hekate Jayne

      It is interesting to think about and I like hearing the thoughts of other women about anything, really, but this is interesting to me. I tend to take an occam’s razor view of just about anything, and in this case, that would be that males insist that their inherent nature is violent. So I believe them.

      But you are right. Why they are like they are doesn’t matter. Because their behavior towards us is chosen.

  • Missy

    I know pedophilia is not a sexual orientation, that’s why I stated that heterosexual men, as in men attracted to women, can still prey on young boys despite the fact that they’re heterosexual. There’s too many people out there that associate the sex of the child victims to sexual orientation which doesn’t make sense since children are not sexual beings.

    As for women complying with their own oppression, I agree, there’s way too many handmaiden types out there with extreme internalized misogyny either because of severe conditioning that keeps them meek and ignorant or because throwing other women under the bus benefits them in some way. I think the former group can be saved with education and vigorous deconditioning, but the latter group are probably too male-identified to really bother with and will likely not bite the hand that throws them a few crumbs and gives them a pat on the head once in a while. But if women everywhere would collectively wake up and come to their senses that have been blocked by patriarchal socialization, we would be unstoppable and men know it, that’s why they work so hard to prevent it from happening.

    Radical feminism is the only way to escape patriarchy and male violence, and when I say radical, I mean really radical. Interacting with men as little as possible, refusing to birth male children, and not putting up with sexism in any form. But the radical feminists that think like me are very few and far between so I don’t have much hope for the movement, or the future of the human species for that matter. Nothing will change as long as males have as much power as they do and as long as women stay passive and compliant and allow men so much control and free reign.

  • kfwkfw

    Nice post!

  • Missy

    That’s what I’ve been saying, that a man attracted to women can still molest little boys and he would still be heterosexual. The sex of the child is not relevant because pedophilia is not a sexual orientation in itself.