If trans activists truly cared about feminism, they would respect women’s spaces

Shon Faye claims to be in solidarity with women, but if that’s true, why doesn’t he respect our autonomy?

Screenshot/Novara Media

In The Guardian this week, lawyer and writer Shon Faye claims “trans people in Britain have recently been subjected to a media onslaught” — an almost laughable irony, if it weren’t so dishonest. The truth is that, while indeed many women and journalists in the UK have been covering and speaking out about questions surrounding the transitioning of children, proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act, potential conflicts between gender identity legislation and women’s rights, and the attacks on those who question gender identity ideology, these articles and that activism do not by any stretch constitute an attack on trans-identified people.

By contrast, this week, a talk by author of Transgender Children and Young People: Born in Your Own Body and spokeswoman for the Women’s Equality Party, Heather Brunskell-Evans, on pornography and the sexualization of young women was cancelled after she questioned the practice of transitioning children. A couple of weeks ago, a lecture journalist Julie Bindel was scheduled to give about her new book, The Pimping of Prostitution: Abolishing the Sex Work Myth, at St. Edward’s University in Texas was cancelled, due supposedly to her arguments around gender identity and support for woman-only space. Anne Ruzylo, a woman’s officer with the Labour Party was subjected to months of bullying by a fellow party member, and smeared as “transphobic.” Pushed to resign last week, every member of the executive committee quit in solidarity with Ruzylo, though the young trans-identified male responsible for the harassment was elected as women’s officer in his local party shortly thereafter. Last month, Linda Bellos, a longtime lesbian feminist activist, was uninvited from speaking at Cambridge University after saying she planned to publicly question “some of the trans politics … which seems to assert the power of those who were previously designated male to tell lesbians, and especially lesbian feminists, what to say and what to think.”

In other words, it is very clear who is under attack within the transgender debate: women.

In his piece, Faye dismisses the idea that efforts to allow trans-identified males into women-only spaces — such as rape crisis shelters and transition houses — represents a conflict, in terms of women’s rights. “Trans women live under the same system of patriarchy as other women,” he argues, only moments after acknowledging that women’s sex-based rights are largely rooted in the fact they can become pregnant. Indeed, women’s oppression under patriarchy began as a means for men to control women’s reproductive capability. As such, females, from birth, are forced into a gendered hierarchy that treats them as subordinate. While Faye may well experience different treatment as a gender non-conforming male — even sexual harassment or discrimination — it is not true that the root of that treatment is the same, or that his needs are the same as women’s, as he claims.

Faye has only been living as a self-defined transwoman for two years, meaning that for 27 years, he was socialized as a male, and offered all the power and privilege men are under patriarchy. He has no idea what it feels like to fear pregnancy, to be talked down to or over, to be discriminated against in the workplace, to live in fear of rape or abuse in private and in public, from the time he was a child. The fact that Faye is completely unconcerned and unsympathetic to the impact of his or another trans-identified male’s presence in a space specifically designated for women escaping male violence demonstrates precisely this. He feels entitled to access these spaces specifically because he does not understand the threat male people pose to women nor does he understand the extent to which gendered socialization shapes women’s experiences and men’s behaviour.

The shelter movement was initiated by feminists in the 1970s — a time when men could beat their wives with impunity. Domestic abuse was considered a “private matter,” and was ignored by both the police and by legislators. Women had no choice but to create spaces to protect one another and to heal. Even today, abusive men are rarely held to account by their communities or by the justice system.

But the transition houses built by women were not only safe spaces for women and their children, but were also spaces for consciousness-raising and political organizing. It is within organizations like Vancouver Rape Relief and Women’s Shelter, Canada’s oldest rape crisis center, that women learn they are not alone, that there is nothing wrong with them, and that the violence they were subjected to is systemic. In other words, the shelter movement has been central in terms of the women’s liberation movement — these were (and still are) sites where women protected other women, without relying on men or the state, and offered women the opportunity to politicize all they have suffered as an oppressed class of people.

While indeed trans-identified males may be at risk of male violence, it is on them to create the services, communities, and support they need. Women struggled and continue to struggle to fund and maintain their services and spaces, which are constantly under attack — seemingly moreso today than ever before. Those of us born female do have specific needs and experiences under patriarchy — needs and experiences that differ from males who transition to living as “transwomen.” The risk of allowing any male who declares that he “feels like a woman” on the inside into women’s safe spaces is vast. That Faye expresses no concern with regard to this risk only demonstrates his male socialization and inability to empathize with women’s material reality.

Faye writes, “I feel the call to be in solidarity with other women against this wherever possible,” but if he truly was an ally to women, he would respect our autonomy, our decades-long fight for rights and justice, and the spaces we created for ourselves and our sisters.

Trans-identified males deserve rights, support, and services just like everyone else, but it need not come at women’s expense.

Meghan Murphy
Meghan Murphy

Founder & Editor

Meghan Murphy is a freelance writer and journalist. She has been podcasting and writing about feminism since 2010 and has published work in numerous national and international publications, including New Statesman, Vice, Al Jazeera, The Globe and Mail, I-D, Truthdig, and more. Meghan completed a Masters degree in the department of Gender, Sexuality and Women’s Studies at Simon Fraser University in 2012 and lives in Vancouver, B.C. with her dog.

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  • Rose M. Jordan

    Great article, Meghan!

    • Meghan Murphy

      Thanks Rose!

  • Gorlagon

    The other thing about Shon Faye is that he perfectly embodies the bourgeois nature of transactivism in the UK. He’s as entitled as a petit bourgeois as he is a man. It sticks in my craw SO much that he and his tiny social network of elite fauxcialists – hello Owen, hello Penny, hello Ellie – have captured MY representation in UKLabour and have no intention of giving it back. Where’s MY political home? The one that centres working class women, who have shouldered 85% of the burden of 7 years of damaging austerity, including but far from limited to, the availability of safe, male-free women’s shelters? Where is it? Squatted by this lot. That’s where it is.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I didn’t mention transmen because transmen are female, and therefore welcome in women’s spaces. What facts did I get wrong?

  • If a person has testicles and xy chromosomes and they feel it’s their right to control women, they are performing masculinity. That’s practically the definition of toxic masculinity. And skirts and makeup do nothing to disguise it.

  • semibreve

    Womyn, and by this i mean we who are female born, will not give way to the moans, shouts and abuse by males who have decided they want to give being female a try; something different and
    assertive, gain entry into what they define as being female.
    Some fanciful illusion that if they gear up in dresses, heels, wigs and lashings of makeup they somehow in a fanciful dwam, become female.
    If those of us who have lived our entire lives from womb to mature years as womyn, dare to challenge this outbreak of abuse and foot stamping anger, ( re. Rumplestiltskin),physical threats et al, we are loathed and hated for our truth telling of reality.
    Trans are what they are; trans males and will remain so.

  • Christine

    No-one here means to attack you. We are just sick and tired of being attacked, no-platformed and gaslighted (gaslit…?). That is the point of the piece. I hope you can look past the pronouns* and read this piece again. There are plenty more excellent articles on similar topics on this site. It’s understandable that you would resist the message — indeed, most of the world does — but please try to understand: feminists are not your worst enemies!

    * If you give these arguments a little more of a chance, you will understand why Meghan is using the pronouns she uses.

    Personally, I feel English needs an unambiguously singular, gender-neutral pronoun, like “hen” in Swedish — I’m not a fan of the singular usage of “they” — not only to replace generic “he”, which is still used to a shocking extent, or “he/she”, which is awkward, but to take some of the emphasis off of sex… because, seriously, why is it so important to know a given individual’s sex, anyway?

  • Yellow Square

    It’s also worth remembering that the people who often “completely forget to mention trans men” are trans women… go figure. The one-upism strategy is tiring. How you feel may be the most important thing to you, but you don’t exist in a vacuum.

  • Wakame

    The thing is that trans women believe themselves to be women and therefore do not see themselves as disrespecting female spaces when they are in them. In order to stop trans women entering women’s spaces, you would fist have to convince us that we are not women.

    This is not something you will be able to do, just as psychiatrists, doctors and society in general have been unable to. If there was a way to do that, it would have been used as a “cure” for gender dysphoria.

    • Meghan Murphy

      My abusive ex does not believe he is abusive. Is it on me to convince him he is abusive, otherwise accept his truth?

      Honestly, your comment is so disturbing to me. Women have been trying to ‘convince’ men to respect their boundaries for eons. The fact that you don’t care or don’t believe we deserve safe spaces is not our fault.

    • Cassandra

      Your male entitlement is showing. Males do not belong in spaces and places created specifically for female people. What matters is *our* understanding and experience of material reality, not your feelings.

    • Americus91

      You expect women to convince you that you are not a woman instead of you convincing women that you are a woman – because you can’t. Because you aren’t.

      I don’t believe I’m a woman – I AM A WOMAN.

      • kfwkfw

        Good point! Attention, all eyes on the entitled male! Nothing fucking new here. Truly tragic to be discussing their hard-on for pretend femininity over what NEEDS to be talked about.

    • JingFei

      But that is not our problem. Do you see? We do not owe you anything, and Transwomen should be able to wrap their heads around that. Certainly, I know a few of them that can! So it is possible.
      Trans women are not female. It is reality. And if no one can convince them to live in reality, than maybe the treatments should gear towards the psychological? Women should not have to absorb this.

    • Christine F.

      Keep your two incher out of OUR spaces, dude. You are NOT WELCOME.

    • Jean Cross

      I just don’t get why you feel such entitlement. Seriously, you haven’t got a clue about women’s issues and needs. If you did you wouldn’t insist on taking our spaces. If a man is born with a male body and comes to think of himself as female, that is not and can never be the same thing as being born a woman. Why is that so hard to grasp?

    • FierceMild

      What is a woman?

      • lk

        Lol, I never get tired of someone asking this question to people who support trans ideology.

        I believe it was Tired Feminist (where is she? havent seen her post in a while)..who would always ask these 3 questions:
        -What is a woman?
        -What is a man?
        -How are babies made?

        Their refusal to answer never ceases to amuse me.

    • Christine F.

      That would be due to your male entitlement, dude.

    • Missy

      No matter what you believe, you are in fact male. You were born biologically male and possess a Y chromosome, and no amount of delusion is going to change that FACT! Sorry to burst your bubble but real women, as in people with two X and zero Y chromosomes, should not have to cater to your feelings, especially by putting our own rights and safety at risk.

    • Leo

      No psychologist has been able to talk me out of my OCD compulsions, either, that doesn’t mean I actually have to do them -the fact I feel like I do doesn’t mean I do- or that I get to expect everyone else to help with them. This is not uncommon with OCD, it’s usually not cured, or more likely, is never cured, just managed.

      It’s really just down to internalised disableism that people with gender dysphoria act like they’re special when the same applies to other mental illnesses/neurological conditions. The medical professionals are disableist, misogynistic, and homophobic and saw you all as convenient guinea pigs.

      • Anne Mulligan

        Leo there is no treatment with a high success rate for body dimorphism other than transitioning, whatever that means to the individual. Therapy or medications don’t help.

    • KAMGlosta

      If you have a ‘rape weapon,’ you are not a woman. No matter how much you believe yourself to be one.

      • Anne Mulligan

        If a trans woman has the appropriate surgery they don’t have that body part anymore, so I guess by your reasoning they are women.

        • Wren

          No, then he’s a man who’s missing his penis.

        • BornACrone

          85% of them retain it — they like the heels and makeup, but the vast majority of them aren’t willing to REALLY go the whole way.

        • Morag999

          By YOUR reasoning, women are castrated men.

          You’re wrong again. Women are female.

        • calabasa

          No, because the dictionary definition of “woman” is “adult human female,” and the dictionary definition of “female” is “of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes.”

          Are there men who have dysphoria/dysmorphia, who are gender non-conforming, and who, post-transition, are *treated as women?* Absolutely. Being treated as a woman (minus all the reproduction-specific treatment of the majority of women who are subject to such oppression during child-bearing age, or even younger when their ability to reproduce in the future is what’s being purchased) is different than actually being a woman.

          It’s important to stick to the reality of the definition of “woman” and “female” in order to remain visible as women and to fight for our needs as a historically oppressed class.

          Being honest about this is not a crime.

        • Omzig Online

          No, a trans-identified male that “has the appropriate surgery” is not a women by any reasoning. They are men with a mutilated penis and scrotom. They are men with a surgical wound that requires routine dilating to keep from closing. And, of course, males use more than their penises to rape. Men have committed rape with their hands, mouths, and even inanimate objects.

          Damn near 100% of rapes are committed by males. Until they’ve eradicated their propensity for sexual violence completely, we will continue the fight to keep them away from our private spaces, whether they are wearing lipstick or not.

        • Cassandra

          Do you think that’s a real zinger? Bet you do.

        • Hanakai

          Mutilating surgery like cutting off the dick does not change one’s sex, which is marked in EVERY SINGLE CELL of the body.

          You can have your dick cut off and an artificial invagination created in your crotch, you can get breast enhancement surgery and shave your Adam’s apple, and take feminizing hormones and you will still always and forever be a man. Every cell of your body will still be marked by that Y chromosome.

          Really. Look at your cells under a microscope. Much as you are deluded in thinking you are female, the microscope will reveal that all your cells are male, every single one. And that you have absolutely no female cells.

          It is also evident that you are male by your inability to comprehend reality or apply the basic principles of logic and reason.

          Here, read about treatments for persecutory delusions, which almost all transsexuals who think they are women suffer from. There are better ways to address delusions than surgical mutilation. Duh. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/know-your-mind/201604/can-delusions-be-cured

  • Cassandra

    The gra reform will change one thing and one thing only; it will be another step toward female erasure. You’re just males shitting all over females. Same old same old.

  • Abi Tiki

    Brava.

  • lk

    Referring to a biological male as “he/him” is not an attack.

  • lk

    This last line of your article is EVERYTHING!!: “Trans-identified males deserve rights, support, and services just like everyone else, but it need not come at women’s expense.”

    When you put biological males into spaces with women who are vulnerable (prisons/shelters), you put these females at incredible risk to become victims of male violence. I don’t understand how someone can simultaneously claim to care about women and while at the same time ignoring the very legitimate concerns of women.

    I am sure this comment section will be flooded with comments about how we are terf, cisscum, priviliged, need to kill ourselves and etc. And I cannot even begin to fathom the kinds of threats Meghan and the other authors of this site must get because they dare to put women first.

    I am so happy that despite all this, FC continues to be a space where we can discuss the needs and rights of biological women, where are we allowed to acknowledge that males and females do not have the same biological needs.

    Everytime I read another article about a MTF being accepted into a woman’s shelter, prison, sports team, woman’s only college….I feel a little sad because I wonder how long it will before women’s only spaces will disappear completely.

    • kfwkfw

      I feel sad when that happens, too. and angry as fuck

  • Yisheng Qingwa

    BUT THEY DON’T. So. WHAT are we gonna do about it? ASK NICELY SOME MORE??

    • Meghan Murphy

      We’re gonna keep fighting for our spaces and rights!

    • kfwkfw

      It’s fucking crazy-making

  • RiverBaggins

    I’ve loved TIMs and TIFs (trans-identified female) for awhile, now… more accurate in expression and the acronyms always amuse me.

  • FierceMild

    You aren’t being misgendered, you’re being properly sexed.

  • catlogic

    Of course they don’t. They hate women.

    • Anne Mulligan

      Why would they want to become women if they hate women?

      • BornACrone

        To elbow us aside and take over what little we’ve managed to eke out for ourselves. And because it’s a fetish. And because demanding that they be called women and lesbian means that they can now bully themselves into the few cunts in this world that are de facto out of bounds for them.

        It’s very similar to Rachel Dolezal’s attitude about blackness — by calling herself black, she gets to shove actual black women away from the microphone and hog it for herself.

      • FierceMild

        What does it mean to “become” a woman?! Other than a girl maturing into a adulthood there is no way to become a woman.

      • Kelly

        Look up Paul Denyer. Serial killer from Frankston. Killed women because he said he ‘hated women’. Now he says it was really because he IS one. Wears a pony tail in his hair, lipstick and only responds when you call him Pauline.

      • Sashimi73

        They want to become the version of women that is created by men who hate women.

      • Omzig Online

        I guess you’d have to ask murderers like Martin Ponting (who goes by the alias “Jessica Winfield”) why they hate women so much. Or maybe ask “Dana Rivers,” a MtT that murdered two lesbians and their son in Oakland. Or Douglas Perry, who murdered several prostituted women before assuming the alias of “Donna” Perry. The list goes on and on.

        Seriously, Anne. Ask any of these transgender-identified males why they hate women so much that they murder us while dressed in drag. Ask them why they want to become women when they clearly hate us and want to kill us. Let me know what they say.

      • Cassandra

        Males can’t become females.

      • calabasa

        Research autogynephilia and covert narcissism, and you’ll understand all you ever wanted to know about envy, resentment and the desire to become another person and usurp their very being.

        Trans activist women certainly act as though they hate women. Everything they do is destructive to us.

  • catlogic

    “Misgender”? You’re a man. No amount of dressing up or cosmetic surgery or dosing yourself will change that. Ditto “transmen” are women.

  • Kelly

    When I was 12 I caught the train up to see my dad for the school holidays. It was when they had enclosed carriage compartments. I was lucky enough to get one to myself. Suddenly two men walked past, peered in and saw me alone. They came in and started making sexually suggestive comments. I said to them “I’m 12. I’m 12. Leave me alone. I’m 12” They looked me up and down, stopping at my breasts, “you’re not 12”. They continued to harass me even though I kept repeating “I’m 12”. So I left. Walked along till I found a compartment that was full with a whole family. The only place to sit was the floor. I opened the doors and said, “can I sit on your floor, I’m 12 and there are two men harassing me.” So I had to spend four hours on the floor of a train because I had grown breasts.
    This continued, where my physical body attracted attention, abuse and assault. I was groped, penetrated when asleep, by random men continually and this didn’t happen because I FELT like a girl. It happened because my body was female.
    Is it any wonder that girls/women want to opt out of this horror? I can fully understand them.
    What I can’t understand is how men think that women are beings that just have an innate urge to wear lipstick and high heels. I can’t understand how transwomen don’t understand how incredibly insulting that is. It’s like co-opting an oppressive thing that has been forced on us and then saying that WE innately WANT it. Women are these creatures that have an innate desire to change their features and don uncomfortable clothing because WE have this innate NEED to be sexually attractive to men!! It’s like taking our oppression and telling us we did it to ourselves.
    Why can’t they see that THIS is SO outrageous???
    It’s like looking at a tiger in a circus jumping through fiery hoops and saying “I feel like I want to jump through fiery hoops. I must be a tiger.” As if the tiger WANTS to be jumping through those hoops? Forget the man whipping them behind the scenes if they don’t. Forget the fact they need to please the man with the whip or they won’t be fed.
    It is transwomen who are the insult. Telling us what we are. Telling us they know how we feel. Taking our oppression and telling us that WE DID IT TO OURSELVES. Telling us that we are these creatures who just have these weird urges to colour our lips, shave our legs and wear sexy underwear. Yep. Sure. And the tiger is just this weird creature who happens to love jumping through flaming hoops.

    • kfwkfw

      Thank you so much for this post. The tiger metaphor…yes! ❤️

    • Morag999

      Wonderfully said.

  • Missy

    If you were remotely concerned about attacks on trans people, then you would be making far more of an effort to actually call out REAL attacks, as in cases where trans people were violently beaten and/or killed for being trans. And you would also name the common perpetrators of those attacks: “cis” men. You wouldn’t be pestering feminists if you were actually concerned about the well being of trans people, you would be starting your own activism against (cis) male violence towards transsexuals.

  • Just Passing Through

    Exactly! Perfect comment on male entitlement.

  • Kiwipally

    The diagnosis of dysphoria and medical gatekeeping are red herrings. Dysphoria and/or medical intervention do not change a male into a female. That is impossible.

    No men in women’s spaces.

  • kfwkfw

    So true!

    We don’t wish ill on them…they tell us what our thoughts are…and that we do indeed wish ill on them, and so it becomes true. What fuckery…that’s one twisted power move.

  • BornACrone

    I was a lot more sympathetic to this until I just started asking myself, “Why do they all think that ‘feeling like a woman’ boils down to lipstick and shoes?” How come they never say, “I knew I was meant to be a woman the minute I applied for and got a business loan and I knew that, as a woman, I was supposed to get talked down to and denied.” Or, “Once when I was in a business meeting, I made a suggestion that was taken seriously and didn’t have to be repeated by a man before it was hailed as a great idea, and it just felt so wrong to me.”

    I saw a jpg online once that said — as if this was some horrible thing — that TWO OUT OF FIVE trans-women thought twice about walking down certain streets at night!!!111!!!! Gosh fucking wollickers, if you people were actually women you’d be throwing a fucking party over how good you had it, because if you are actually a woman, you’d know that number would be FIVE OUT OF FIVE.

    Years ago, I knew one coworker who transitioned who had made a fortune in sales working for a male CEO who SCREAMED HIMSELF RED IN THE FACE at only women in the company. All the women knew it and we would secretly share stories about him. He screamed himself hoarse at me until I couldn’t go into work without shaking and crying, but I couldn’t leave because the NASDAQ had tanked immediately after I took the job. He was divorced with a young kid that he was slowly destroying like Donald Trump’s father did to him, and he once tried to BREAK DOWN HIS EX-WIFE’S DOOR. This man was a psychopath.

    If you were a woman.

    If you were male, you were fine. If you were female, he would literally look for any excuse to SCREAM AT YOU. I’m talking full-on red-faced, forehead-veins-popping screaming. The trans”woman” never got screamed at and got the full benefits of making a shit-ton of money for that son of a bitch as a man. And they talk to ME about my “privilege”? Go to hell.

    That plus the insistence of being the center of everyone’s attention, the rage at being refused entry into certain vaginas (lesbian ones), and the way they play the suicide card over it — “If you don’t let me fuck you, I’ll kill myself!” … it all adds up to the same fucked-up, tired old shit men have been doing for centuries to women: demanding to be the center of attention, wigging out over not being able to fuck whichever of us they want, and suicide threats over sex. Their behavior is about as male as you can get.

    If it walks like a man, quacks like a man, thinks womanhood boils down to porno heels and makeup, and threatens to beat you up or kill itself unless you let it fuck you RIGHT NOW, IT’S A MAN. No more of this bullshit. I am sick of it. Yes, go ahead and live your life free of oppression and violence as all human beings should … but you are NOT a woman. Not by a long shot. I don’t care how much lipgloss you wear.

    Holy shit, I came of age in the 80s, and Adam Ant, Boy George, Prince, and the guys in Duran Duran wore way more makeup than any of you, and they were WAY BETTER at it. NONE of you fucks does your eye makeup half as good as Nick Rhodes. I seriously cannot believe that the Age of Reagan was more enlightened about ANYTHING than we are now.

    • Sashimi73

      Wow, this is such a sane and clear post, that cuts through all of the ‘queer’ bullshit right now. I especially love this: “If it walks like a man, quacks like a man, thinks womanhood boils down to porno heels and makeup, and threatens to beat you up or kill itself unless you let it fuck you RIGHT NOW, IT’S A MAN. No more of this bullshit. I am sick of it. Yes, go ahead and live your life free of oppression and violence as all human beings should … but you are NOT a woman. Not by a long shot. I don’t care how much lipgloss you wear.”

    • SMNZ

      Have you ever actually had a conversation with a trans person?
      That means shut up and listen to what they say with a mind open enough to hear them out?
      Because every single trans person l know; or have heard or seen speak; or read will tell you the shoes and the makeup are the last things on the list.

      I’m not trans. l don’t presume to speak for trans women, but l’m not going to say nothing when you spew hatered.

      • JingFei

        I like how your version of “having a conversation with a Trans person” is defined by the female “shutting up” and being talked at.
        Tho truth be told, that’s exactly what Trans Rights Activists think! A “discussion” always involves women being silenced and them screeching about what we should think and say. And if that doesn’t work, threats, and physical intimidation.
        How long do you think the majority will entertain this authoritarianism?

  • Roseanna Danza

    This is not a recent phenomenon. They’ve wanted entry into, and employment in, women’s shelters for years. “Bourgeois white capitalist male dominance” works best when even a sex offender can invade any and every female-only space simply by going in drag and claiming to feel like he’s a woman.

  • peopleareweird

    Anyone that supports a theory which claims that women aren´t human beings but feelings a men possess is a enemy of women. When will men stop trying to dehumanize us? Why are some women supporting this?

    • Anne Mulligan

      Where does that theory come from? I have never heard of it before and I think you are deliberately trying to incite everyone to believe you even when you know you are speaking nonsense.

      • Wren

        Trans identified men are saying that they are women because they FEEL like women. Women’s identities have been reduced to a metaphysical desire to wear satin and lipstick. @peopleareweird is not being incendiary but speaking the truth and I think that 22+ up-votes shows that we all agree around here. YOU are the one picking a fight.

      • FierceMild

        Trans activists day that a woman is someone who “feels like a woman” which means that a woman is a feeling a man has. Peopleareweird was pointing out that this notion is bogus, degrading, and dehumanizing.

      • peopleareweird

        Transtheory claims that women are not female human beings, that is, human beings with a female reproductive system. They claim that men *are* women because they “feel like a women”. That means that women are feelings a man owns, doesn’t it?
        That thing that you are saying in other posts, that they “want to become women” is not what transactivists claim anymore.
        But even if it were so, a man who removes his dick is an eunuc, he doesn’t become a woman because he still has male internal reproductive organs like prostata. Also, men can wear dresses if they please (I couldn’t care less) but that doesn’t make them female human beings, they are still male human beings.

      • Morag999

        No, she makes perfect sense.

        Maybe you aren’t thinking hard enough?

      • calabasa

        This is behind the gender identity movement. You are a woman or a man if you say you feel like one. In practice, it’s women who lose because of this, not men, who have not had to fight for their rights to safety and equal treatment as men.

      • Cassandra

        You get an F in The Sensing of Sarcasm.

        Also — beliefs aren’t incited.

        We know what’s what here, don’t fret.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I hope it’s a healthy break, too! I actually tried to contact her to check in, after she disappeared from the comment section, but haven’t heard back 🙁

  • Wren

    But trans identified men are not women, and they will never be women, regardless of whether or not they “pass.” It is not the patriarchy’s fault that some men want to wear dresses and makeup. It is not an expression of men’s “oppression” that some have the desire to wear lipstick; it is evidence of their privilege.

  • Wren

    Best. Post. Ever.

  • Americus91

    Oh please. You’re saying she didn’t have to wear the breasts she developed at 12??

  • BornACrone

    So wait a second, the fact that these things are associated arbitrarily with women is patriarchy’s “fault,” and yet … if you “feel like a woman” … you will wear things that are patriarchy’s “fault” because you need to … express what you are … naturally as part of some hard-wired biological whatever. Although it’s all arbitrary and the “fault” of some oppressive societal nonsense.

    You just hammered home her comment about tigers jumping through flaming hoops even better than she did.

  • BornACrone

    Yeah, when most of the Billboard Top Ten from your teenaged years were heterosexual men who looked like this:

    http://cbsnews2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2015/09/12/04560501-98bf-44d8-8f0f-ba7d1283567f/resize/620×465/cc153e7d0d34dd2a6f5d4935d93c92a3/nick-rhodes-emi-records.jpg#

    http://iv1.lisimg.com/image/4125404/600full-adam-ant.jpg

    the insistence that they are women because they look like this just doesn’t hold water.

    • JingFei

      I googled all the names above (a bit before my time), and I’m certain all these 80’s guys would be put into the “non-binary”, “genderqueer”, or Trans categories if they existed like this today.
      How sad.

  • FierceMild

    Men did that to her when she was a 12 year old child because she is female. Transwomen are male. This has nothing to do with how anyone is dressed. In dresses, transwomen are male. In pants, women are female. This men harrassed kelly because she is female, not because she identified as female.

  • calabasa

    Her point is that it happened to her because she is female, with a female body. The moment a young trans “woman” passes, she will experience all the same things. However, trans “women” do not grow up with this, nor are they being oppressed because of a condition they can’t help (a female body); you might make a case they are being oppressed because of homophobia, but they are not being oppressed by dint of being born female. As distressing as dysmorphia/dysphoria are, they are not axes of oppression, they are illnesses.

    Now, of course, the mentally ill do experience discrimination as a result of that mental illness and therefore are oppressed. However, it’s discrimination to fire someone for being mentally ill, for example; but should a mentally ill person have the right to make everyone else change for him or her? If I believe I am actually a dog, is it oppression if my coworkers don’t refer to me as a dog, use the proper dog pronouns, or otherwise participate in my delusion? It’s okay with me if we decide to relax dress codes, and allow people to dress as furries at work, if want, as a society; but would it be okay if I wanted to poop and pee outside my work on the grass? How about if I sniffed people’s crotches?

    This might sound hyperbolic, but think about how uncomfortable some women feel with people who are obviously male in their vulnerable spaces, and think of the actual danger–beyond just some crotch-sniffing–of allowing male people to transfer into, for example, women’s prisons if they decide they “feel female.”

    Denying someone their basic human rights is oppressive, but refusing to change the rest of the world to cater to someone’s beliefs about themselves is not. Trans people are not being denied rights, they are being denied unreasonable requests. A reasonable request would be gender-neutral options and trans safe spaces and groups, so they should do organization around that; as someone else pointed out, they have the funding. Why try to force others to validate you, and erode the rights and protections of the group you claim to identify with, simply because it’s painful to acknowledge you are not actually a member of that group? What, exactly, is wrong with trans women and women, and acknowledging the former are biologically male, that their are multiple reasons men might choose to transition, some of them *not* based at all on dysphoria or dysmorphia and some which could be suspect (or indicate a greater degree of mental illness than dysphoria or dymorphia, to be therefore treated with caution, both with regard to behavior and the claims being made); of course, the same is true of trans men, although as biological females raised female they are much less likely to be aggressive.

    Girls are not selected for abortion because they identify as female, or for child marriage because they identify as female; they are not selected for harassment and assault the moment they grow breasts because they identify as female. Her dress was not the problem when she was twelve, and that’s not what she is talking about. She is talking about how the corollary to male sexual aggression is female sexual submission, that women are indoctrinated into presenting ourselves sexually, and it isn’t what defines us and is a bit insulting for a man to shave his legs and wear lipstick and high heels and claim that makes him female.

    I take your point that men who actually have dysphoria/dysmorphia (definitely no longer the majority of trans-identified males) are subject to the same rules and recreate the patriarchy in the same way as women.

    However, there are a LOT of them for whom it is a pornified fetish, who really do get a kick out of exaggerated feminine dress and behavior–that is not simply recreating, that is reducing us to that, and is insulting.

    Also, we need to get away from the idea that it is any way radical or revolutionary to exchange one hierarchical sex role (gender identity) for another. It’s not. Trans women are subject to the same rules, as I said–the same prescriptions, proscriptions, and pressures–as women, of course, but it’s not revolutionary for them to grapple with those, either. Nor is it revolutionary to declare oneself “non-binary” as though you are special and the rest of the people who are “binary” are perfectly okay with gender. It is not okay–the results of the gender hierarchy are not okay–and the state of the world past and present is proof of this. Declaring yourself “non-binary” ironically just reinforces the righteous existence of that binary, as does “transitioning” from one gender role to another.

    If we got rid of gender altogether, dysphoria would disappear, as the conditions that allow it to arise would disappear. Dysmorphia would likely still exist, in very few people, as it always has, but no one would object to taking hormones to look more like the opposite sex physically, to alleviate discomfort.

    Most women have few problems with gender non-conforming gay men who feel uncomfortable with their physical bodies and desire to appear more like women; it’s the larger majority of fetishisistic straight men who claim to be women, usually in highly stereotypical ways, who are the problem. Granted, there are “GNC gay men” who are in fact highly gender-conforming and desire to be “fucked like women” and make themselves over to look like Barbie dolls, but that’s not the norm; most of them just get surgeries to appear more like women physically, and then try to blend.

    I can understand women who have a problem with both, because of the appropriation factor. However, in a highly-coded recent interview in which Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie was asked about her statement last year about women and trans women, in a really evasive way, by an interviewer, she chose to answer the question equally evasively (because of the inevitable blowback both the interviewer and she were trying to avoid) by talking about race, and she discussed “levels of powerlessness,” saying that though they come from a similar background–both colonized by the Spanish, both minorities in the U.S. and from countries with a history of poverty–Puerto Ricans and Dominicans were nevertheless different; however, for a Dominican to write about the Puerto Rican experience, after much research, might not be appropriation because of a similar level of powerlessness. I understand her point about gender-nonconforming gay males and their historical level of powerlessness under patriarchy as compared to women (they are not necessarily trying to appropriate or insult women by transitioning); nevertheless, their experience is not the same as that of women, and they can imagine themselves as women and even speak about similar experiences without saying they are actually women, because not only is that appropriation of the identity of actual women, and therefore inappropriate, but it’s not allowing women to make our definitions ourselves and also eroding our protections as women, which should be the last thing people who are woman-identified want to do, no matter how much they may long to *actually* be female (true love and respect for women would mean not putting themselves and their feelings first).

    As to whether transition really “neuters” dangerous men, a MTF convicted torture-rapist in Britain underwent SRS and hormone therapy and was transitioned to women’s prison, where he continued to rape women using objects. Clearly biastophilia is a powerful compulsion that is not necessarily eradicated by hormone therapy or castration; imagine the threat that men with these compulsions who do *not* undergo SRS, or even hormone replacement therapy as part of the definition of their condition (what is being advocated for–“self-identifying” and nothing more) pose to women?

    On the other hand, I am not advocate of medical transition; it should be reserved for the most serious cases of dysmorphia and dysphoria. So, we should simply acknowledge the existence of GNC people and men with sexual fetishes to present as women, without calling them “women,” because it opens such a huge can of worms, and the trans movement seems absolutely unwilling to contain them.

    • Leo

      “As distressing as dysmorphia/dysphoria are, they are not axes of oppression, they are illnesses.”
      Agree on it not meaning they should be accepted as the opposite sex, but I’d tend to disagree and define disabled people as an oppressed class, impacting those with GD in particular ways – it’s back to the bad old days of eugenic sterilisation, even. It’s arguable that resources aren’t extracted from us in the same way, I guess, but it happens in some cases, to neurodivergent people whose thinking benefits NT society, and just to those of us stuck doing low-paid labour and prevented from accessing other opportunities. Like women and BAME people, we are kept poor. In some cases our different thinking, both learned due to our position as disabled in a world not built for us, and innate, could be useful but disruptive to the functioning of society, so of course we’re not allowed to touch it, especially if we could redesign things to increase our access to it – same as women aren’t. That kind of thing I think goes beyond simply being prejudice, into oppression.

  • peopleareweird

    I think some women support them because they have internalized misoginy and are flattered that a “superior being” deigns to want to become like them. They certainly don’t show they same level of understanding and support to other women.

  • BornACrone

    And come to think of it, Annie Lennox would probably be called a transman. Short hair? Tuxedo? Gotta be a guy …

  • Kelly

    No. You are absolutely right. Like I said, It happened to me because my body was the body of a female. I was wearing jeans and a t-shirt.
    If you think I was attacking trans women for wearing female clothing then you really missed the point. I’m saying the desire to wear those clothes does not make someone female. Their body does. What does a woman feel like? How would I know. I know how I feel. I don’t know how any other ‘woman’ feels any more than I know how a man feels. I know my experiences that have resulted from my body being female.
    Tell me. What does a woman feel like?

  • Sashimi73

    Being visually identifiable as a female in this culture does not mean you are a woman. A woman is not about clothes. You are pretending that what happened to Kelly was an individual thing, when men do this to all women, no matter what these women feel like, since the women came out of the womb. I understand that trans-identified males can identify with many aspects of what has traditionally been assigned to women (personality traits, place in society, etc), but do treat the actual lived experiences of women with respect.

  • calabasa

    There is also the fact that autogynephilic men are MORE likely to be sex offenders, as unusual sexual fetishes tend to overlap. This was already known but is borne out again by the recently released information that nearly 2/3rds of trans-identified men in prison in the UK are in prison for sexual offenses, as opposed to 17 percent of the overall male prison population.

    This does not include men who are just very, very feminine and gender non-conforming and transition to look more like women and then date other men. This is about the “lesbian” males who say they are women. Of course, not all of them are dangerous either–there are men with cross-dressing kinks who go decide to do medical transition who are *not* dangerous (part of it definitely seems to be wanting to divorce themselves from male sexuality/masculinity while still having a kind of pornified view of what women are, or other sexual fetishes such as voyeurism/exhibitionism, all of which is enthusiastically accepted on the left, which, with its acceptance and promotion of BDSM practices, is one step away from being pro-rape anyway, which is probably why they fetishize “consent” and object so loudly to its violation; a “methinks thou doth protest too much” situation–they know they are complicit, considering what they are endorsing; and these men, well, they are in denial, because deep down they feel ashamed that their desire to transition might be coming from a sexist place), there are some who probably wouldn’t hurt a fly, not even to try to force unwilling women to participate in their fetishes (who might avoid using the women’s restroom or locker room, or if they do, might feel guilty about it), but the fact remains that autogynephilic men are MORE, not less, dangerous than your average man, so it’s not just that male sexual offenders will be happy to pretend to be women to gain access to their victims and get away with their crimes (some of them will; a lot of rapists have NO shame, wouldn’t care about breaking gender norms to get access to their victims, and often leverage others’ compassion to continue to get away with their offending), but also that straight men who get off on pretending to be women are more likely in the first place to be sexual offenders.

    This is something no one wants to admit or talk about, but facts don’t lie.

  • Cassandra

    Of course what happened to her when she was 12 didn’t happen because of the clothes she was wearing, and she never said it did. It happened because she’s FEMALE and people with penises are motherfuckers.

    A woman recounts an extremely awful experience (and we as FEMALES have ALL had one like it), and your main concern is about your freedom to wear a dress without being “attacked?”

    And this:
    “It not their fault they are seen as stereotypically female characteristics, it’s the patriarchy’s fault.”

    THE FUCKING PATRIARCHY CREATED THEM, YOU ASSHOLE.

    Have some lady balls and dress however you want without trying to deny your sex. Wearing a dress has nothing to do with being a woman anyway.

  • lk

    Kelly did not “attack” anyone in her post. And nowhere did her post did she claim to be a victim of sexual harassment because of her clothing.

    The awful, sexist things Kelly experienced happened because she is a human female…not because of her selfidentification or her feelings but because of material reality.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Please don’t waste my time with this ridiculousness. Most women have wombs. Zero men have wombs. Females are the members of the species capable of giving birth. Everyone knows what a female is. It’s not confusing.

  • Meghan Murphy

    So you’re delusional which means everyone else is obligated to accommodate your delusion?

  • Meghan Murphy

    There is no such thing as ‘feeling female,’ though. Also, a feeling is not measurable. So, no, ‘feeling female’ doesn’t make you female, because that is not a real, quantifiable thing.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Female and male are not identities, they are biological categories.

    • lk

      How many times can we explain this? Lol…

      • Meghan Murphy

        Thousands of times, apparently.

  • Meghan Murphy

    First of all, feminists are not seeking ‘equality’, we are seeking liberation from patriarchy, so no, we are not nearly at the ‘final stages’ of that. Second, what do you mean when you say that ‘transwomen are not even close’ to achieving ‘equality’?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Of course you don’t. You are a man and females are not a threat to you.

  • Meghan Murphy

    How are they women? What is a woman?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Imagine you were born female, but didn’t ‘feel like a girl’ and didn’t ‘feel like’ you should be treated as one. Great. Now you know what it’s like to be born female under patriarchy.

  • Rich Garcia

    @disqus_8c9jsWcXTU:disqus You can’t “see yourself” as a woman if you’re defining womanhood as modes of appearance and culturally normative behaviors, which transsexual males have redefined as womanhood in their image. And altering your outward appearance with cosmetic surgery and hormone “therapy” isn’t going to change your biological sex.

  • calabasa

    Yes, of course. Some trans women are nice people. That is besides the point when it comes to fighting for a cause that will erode women’s rights, spaces and protections, rather than organizing for trans spaces and protections without threatening ours. There is nothing wrong with saying that trans women are trans women and not, in fact, women, and that the issues that affect these two groups are different, though some overlap. There is also needs to be acknowledgment within the trans movement that it’s been hijacked by dubious people for troubling political reasons. It’s no longer about just sympathy for those who have dysphoria/dysmorphia, and finding a way to accommodate them without hurting women, it’s become something rather different, and the “nice” trans people are being used as pawns; this is something that the movement itself is going to need to reckon with.

    Some women will always be angry about appropriation of female identity, and I can’t blame them; however, many of us have no problem with trans people who have dysphoria or dysmorphia, who don’t threaten us and are sensitive to the fact that, in the case of trans “women,” they are identifying with and attempting to transition into an oppressed group, and must be sensitive to the concerns of said group. It may be painful to admit that one can never *actually* be what one wants to be, but some grasp of reality is necessary here, in order to avoid hurting an entire population of people–women–that has been historically and continues to be composed of people treated as second-class citizens. Our hard-won rights are being eroded with the blurring of our physical, biological identity; we fought for our right to organize without men and for our spaces. If trans women could be sensitive to that, and not try to intrude where they are not wanted, most of us would have no problem with them.

    • Leo

      I think very few of us don’t have sympathy for those with GD but it doesn’t mean they should actually be accommodated as though they’re anything other than their actual biological sex – or even that doing so would be the best thing for them. They don’t really need/should not reasonably be given any special accommodations at all, other than those that fall under disability rights, none of which includes validating false beliefs. It’s not having a problem with people to be honest with them, I think it’s much more accepting in fact. Any continued pretence will just harm vulnerable people, both women, and GD people who are drawn into buying into it – that’s the wrong thing to do to someone with a mental illness or neurological condition. It could even be extremely cruel. This also wouldn’t wash with any other oppressed group, eg. the idea of letting someone pretend they’re another race, or have a specific disability. It doesn’t even wash with other mental illnesses/neurological conditions.

  • lk

    Our criticism of transideology has nothing to do with if transwomen are nice or not nice…the kindess of transwomen as individual people is actually irrelevant.

    Our criticism is of the idea that woman is just a feeling as opposed to a matter of biological fact.

    We are critical of the ridiculous idea that there is no biological difference between males and females

    We are critical of the fact that vulnerable women are being forced to share spaces (prisons, shelters) with biological males.

    We are critical of the idea of the cotton ceiling and the idea that lesbians should be open to dating or being intimate with biological men.

  • thebewilderness

    Has it occurred to you that #NAMALT is beside the point?

    • Yisheng Qingwa

      This is The variation on NAMALT: NATALT.

  • thebewilderness

    If what you claim is true they are severely mentally ill and humouring their delusions is the path to destruction for all concerned.

  • Kiwipally

    Boys get sexually assaulted by abusers who sexually assault boys. Being a sexually assaulted boy does not turn that boy into a girl.

    Thanks for coming along and doing the #WhatAboutTheMenz.

  • Kiwipally

    Must you shift the goalposts in every comment you write?

  • thebewilderness

    I wondered how many comments you could manage before you went full on troll.

  • Kiwipally

    Shifting the goalpost.

  • lk

    No.

    Woman and man have absolutely nothing to do with identity or feelings. They are a matter of biological facts.

    Human females: humans who have XX chromosomes, vagina, uterus, ovaries.

    Human males: humans who have XY chromosomes, penis, sperm, testicles

    Babies are made through male and female intercourse…identity has nothing to do with it.

    Because of our biology females around the world face certain struggles and issues that males do not: pregnancy, death in childbirth, issues around periods and access to pads/tampons, lower pay, denial of access to education, forced to wear things like burka/niqabs, not allowed to drive, must have male escorts/permission, sold into marriages/prostitution, higher risk of being victims of dv/sexual assault…not to mention the phenomenon of fetuses being aborted only because they are female.

  • thebewilderness

    D00d, the mansplaining is getting tiresome. This is a feminist blog. NAMALT is beside the point.

  • thebewilderness

    Because male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.

  • Kiwipally

    Shifting the goalpost. And for the people reading along at home and not posting, see the misogyny in his post where women who have suffered cancer are used as an attempted “gotcha”. Trans activists do not care about women.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Ah I see. So men become transgender because they don’t get laid enough?

  • Omzig Online

    False. A woman’s genitals are an authentic, perfect vagina before she was riddled with cancer, and her genitals are still perfect after the cancer is eradicated and her vagina is repaired. You do not get to compare your sad, warped male ego to an actual life threatening disease, sir.

  • Leo

    Missing being able to post on r/incels, are you?

  • peopleareweird

    “Also not quite true – they claim that women are women because they feel like women.”
    1-As I said, woman are feels a man owns according to transactivist like yourself. It is because you claim to own those feelings that you own the concept “woman”. Equating “wo an” to an abstract concept such as feelings, how is that not dehumanizing “woman”? This is men claiming ownership of “woman” because we are “no real humans” version 2.0. Stop dehumanizing us!
    Also, LMAO, no, I am not a woman because of my feels, I am a woman because of my body. I am a woman literally because of my physical reality, regardless of how I feel. Even if I were in a coma and didn’t feel anything, I still would be a woman, and as such, preferred target of male violence. Men could rape me and even get me pregnant regardless of being in a coma and having no feels whatsoever .

  • Omzig Online

    That analogy would only work if artists were murdered by women day in and day out, sir. The violent murders that I just mentioned are all a part of a much bigger problem called “male violence against women,” and it is a pattern that repeats itself every single day across the globe. What you just suggested, on the other hand, is not a pattern at all. Instead, what you offered is a perfect example of anecdotal evidence.

  • Leo

    No, it’s the bit where anyone who disagrees is demonstrably wrong, not the mere fact of disagreement. They don’t even have any halfway sensible arguments, so this is not difficult to demonstrate.

    Men are always try this ‘everything is relative! it’s all opinion and all arguments are the same!’ trick when they have no better points to make.

  • calabasa

    *can bear offspring* is the salient language here. The sex, as a whole, *can bear offspring.* Of course there are rare genetic mutations that make this impossible. This doesn’t mean that there are more than two sexes anymore than a person born without a leg means we are not bipedal as a species.

    For sex to be a spectrum, intersex people would have to be just as capable of reproduction, and they aren’t.

    The fact that some female people with XX chromosomes are born without reproductive capabilities does not mean that this definition is disproven. “Can”–are hypothetically able to, by virtue of their *sex*, not gender identity–does not mean “do.” There is a reason it is worded that way.

    You know who is one hundred percent incapable of gestating a baby? The male sex, whether they feel female or surgically alter their bodies or not.

    That bit of already-known information really is not the trump card you think it is. And as I said, these are the dictionary definitions, which it seems trans activists are lobbying to change, something which will only hurt women.

  • Leo

    ‘Wow, I thought women were more accepting than the what I’m seeing on this page.’
    Gosh, a dude expects women to be accepting to males. Never heard that one before!

    I know I’m a woman because I’m an adult human female. It’s not a feeling, it’s biological reality. It’s irrelevant to this issue whether someone hates their own body so much that looking at it feels nightmarish to them. I’m sure it does in some cases but that doesn’t make them actually the opposite sex. BDD, anorexia, the way people with those conditions feel about their bodies doesn’t make it true, either. There was a documentary about anorexia recently. One young woman asked the prester if she looked anorexic. The presenter wasn’t quite sure how to respond. She said if he’d said she didn’t, she’d have had to starve herself. As someone with OCD -another condition where there’s some similar thinking- that makes total, even intuitive, sense to me – maybe it’s you who doesn’t get it. Even for neurotypical people, good grief, do you have no clue how much patriarchy teaches women to be uncomfortable and unhappy in their bodies?

    I think the word you are looking for is lesbians, not ‘homo women’.

  • Omzig Online

    WTF?

    • Morag999

      Yeah. He’s pro-rape. Believes that sexual and reproductive slavery should be enforced by the state.

  • calabasa

    I honestly don’t know how to respond, considering the level delusion here.

    First off, we have no way to know who “says they feel” and who “actually feels.” Secondly, it is a false distinction.

    The truth is, there is *no way to “feel like” something you have never been or experienced except if you accept a religious doctrine of some kind, such as the belief in souls or more specifically reincarnation and accidental “ensouling” with the wrong-sexed soul.*

    I am not saying that is not possible. It IS. We have no way of knowing at this present moment in time, however. If I were to say I am black and insist that I *feel black,* and I am sure it has something to do with either being born with the wrong white soul or my identifying with a previous black life, most black people would be offended and disbelieving and frankly if I cared at all about how they felt I would shut up and stop saying it, no matter how painful.

    Honestly, the fact that most of us don’t care if men get surgery and take hormones to look like women *as long as they don’t call themselves women* says a lot about our level of tolerance, which is already quite high. There would be some who would tolerate a white person dyeing their skin and dyeing and kinking their hair and getting surgery to have more African features, but there would be a lot that wouldn’t, never mind saying they are actually black and deserve access to all-black schools or black scholarships (something which isn’t even an issue of SAFETY, as it is with women).

    THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FEELING LIKE A WOMAN. There is a such a thing as “feeling like you feel like a woman,” but that is different.

    And are you really unaware of just how many dangerous male fetishists who don’t *actually* feel like women but simply *fetishize everything about women in a way that makes them dangerous* there are, out there? 2/3rds of trans-identified males don’t have dypshoria or dysmorphia, these days. They are straight male fetishists. I’m not saying they’re all dangerous, but they’re certainly more likely to be dangerous than the gay male dysphorics/dysmorphics. Are you unaware of this?

    Are you unaware of the influence of porn within the trans movement? Of how men with a “sissy fetish” become more fixated on it, and want to become women? And how women who see the brutality of mainstream het porn and want to opt out of that decide to become men?

    Are you unaware at how rigid gender roles and the backlash against feminism combined with rising rates of sexual violence contribute both to the desire of young women to opt out of this altogether and the desire of young men to appropriate it?

    The playing field has certainly changed in the last twenty years, and not in a way that is actually helping people with dysphoria or dysmorphia, either, ultimately, and certainly not helping gay or female people.

    I am personally totally fine with people who have dysphoria or dysmorphia lobbying for their own spaces, but requiring the rest of us to pretend they actually are what they say they are and say they feel they are is, quite simply, not fair. There are MANY MANY mental illnesses, some of them less and some of them more dangerous. Should we play along with all of them too?

  • Leo

    Thanks! ^_^

    I thought a bit over how to respond -besides the thanks- to this one, because the idea of ‘relief’ while it has a point and very appropriate good intentions behind it, isn’t actually quite accurate as to what it’s like for me, though it would be for others. I do suffer with it, sometimes considerably, and it’d be flippant just to say I don’t suffer from insanity, I enjoy it, but my OCD is very severe and is entwined with all my thinking. Similar to many on the autistic spectrum, I would now reject a ‘cure’, because it’s not separable from me, it’s probably part of my neurology. The psychologists’ attempts at one was much, much worse than simply living with and accepting it – it’s not always even wholly bad to just live with a mental illness. OCD people are generally terrible at filtering things out, for instance, which can be unbearable, but also useful. It seems that some who’ve learnt to cope with their GD also learnt to just take the experience for what it was at the time.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    Yeah we’re pretty aware women telling you no sounds “crazy” to you, dude.

  • calabasa

    “They also cop a lot more you will not ever experience or ever know”

    OH MY GOD! Only a fucking man could say that.

    Tell me again: who is being murdered for being female? Who is female genocide committed against? How about female genital mutilation? Child marriage? How about the historical sexual and reproductive slavery of females? Who did that happen to?

    Do you think “trans women” started being molested and raped the moment they hit puberty because people somehow knew they internally identified as women? Did this onslaught continue even as they tried to get away from it, or did they transition into the raped class to get away from how bad it feels to look differently than you feel on the inside (something which EVERY WOMAN EXPERIENCES UNDER PATRIARCHY–this “dysphoria and dysmorphia”–by the way)?

    Are transwomen criminalized for miscarriages? Are they denied access to female birth control? Oh really?

    You are SO FUCKING PRIVILEGED IT IS BEYOND BELIEF.

    Shut the fuck up and get the fuck out of here. You fucking asshole.

    • Melanie

      “Wow, I thought women were more accepting than the what I’m seeing on this page”.

      This is your problem David. You have preconceived ideas and stereotypes about what women are and you think that if you identify with those stereotypes it somehow makes you a woman. Sorry to disappoint, but it’s your mistake not ours.

      • Alienigena

        Women only seem to be accepting TIM’s because they are physically afraid of men, including TIM’s, assaulting them or otherwise harming them or the people they care about (look at the attacks on the children of women labeled TERFs). It is anyone’s guess as to the number of women who really support TIM’s because the majority are probably just trying to avoid retaliation from TIM’s for not being right-minded enough to accept their claims and their magical thinking.

  • calabasa

    Women are raped NONSTOP. Or haven’t you been listening? It has ZERO to do with how we “identify,” either.

    Tell me: why is it offensive beyond belief to do blackface, but perfectly fine to do womanface? Can you explain that to me? If it’s “comparable levels of powerlessness,” how about a Native American who does blackface. Is that okay? How about a Native American who is “transracial” and transitions to African-American? Is that okay?

    I am sure gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia are a nightmare. So are a LOT OF OTHER DISORDERS, many of them far, far worse.

    Having C-PTSD because you’ve been violated all your life for being female is a nightmare, too, as is the long long history of your stymied potential. That’s even without being born with a disorder.

    Women are nice enough, for the most part, not to be angry about men saying they “feel like women” and appropriating our appearance. Considering how anathema appropriation is on the left when it comes to *every other group*, that is saying a lot–both about female patience and indoctrination into said patience, and about how the left doesn’t really see sexism as an axis of oppression like other axes of oppression, or else doesn’t see women as human like it seems other groups that include men as human (I expect it’s a bit of both).

    But men saying they ARE women? Appropriating not just a look they want, but our very identities? Eroding our protections, erasing us, eroding our hard-won rights, stealing our hard-won positions?

    FUCK THAT AND FUCK YOU.

    There are PLENTY OF MORE PAINFUL MENTAL CONDITIONS and I am not about to sacrifice the rights and safety and happiness of large swathes of the population for them no matter what they say or feel.

    If you are sad about being unhappy, take it up with the natalists.

  • calabasa

    “I was also sexually assaulted as a young child…”

    I’m sorry that happened to you.

    Tell me, have you been sexually assaulted countless times? Violently raped more times than you can count on one hand? Because I have. Sexual violence has been nonstop in my life and it is in the lives of many women.

    THAT is a huge part of what it is to be “treated as a woman,” and it starts happening to us when we are very, very young. And gender is the system that naturalizes and perpetuates and indoctrinates us into our oppression.

  • calabasa

    Most trans men *not transitioning because of true dysphoria/dysmorphia* are expressing the desire to transition out of lack of female privilege and into male privilege (the desire to GET AWAY from the shit show of being perceived as female).

    Most trans women *not transitioning because of true dysphoria/dysmorphia* are transitioning because of a sexual fetish to see themselves as lacking in male privilege/weak and submissive and pornified like women (“the sissification fetish”), which ironically only further reinforces the presence of their male privilege, that they would think this is something to get off on or an “identity” they can claim because of a *sexual fetish.* They think women ARE sex. Way to show your total objectification of women, guys.

    This doesn’t mean that either transitioning sex actually achieve this change of privilege, *regardless of the presence of dysphoria/dysmorphia,* as socialization is strong. This is why trans men are so much quieter about their demands on average than their “feminine” sisters.

    Of course, privilege both has to do with how you act (why so many trans women express their male privilege so obviously) and with how others perceive you (non-passing trans women might lose straight privilege from others but they will keep their male privilege; passing trans women will lose the male privilege accorded them by others but may very well keep it themselves w/r/t their behavior; trans men may not pass well and will lose their straight privilege from others and also keep their female lack of privilege; trans men might pass well and be accorded male privilege by others–either way, they tend to not grow male privilege in their own brains, which is why trans men are usually much nicer, more understanding, and doing real work to help people, including or even especially women, e.g. Ben Barres).

  • calabasa

    Except there are way, way, way more of them, and you can literally only think of one example of radical feminists trying to kill anyone, can’t you?

  • calabasa

    Are you trolling?

  • calabasa

    So there you have it: you want to change reality. That’s the crux of what you’re saying.

    Tell me, do you pass? Because if you do, then what’s the problem?

    Bathroom-wise, I don’t see the problem if you pass. In terms of sports and scholarships and census data I do–it skews things, it’s unfair; get trans sports teams, trans scholarships, be honest on census data. Your movement has enough money and power now to focus on organizing for yourselves without stealing things from women.

    If you don’t pass, you SHOULD be lobbying for gender-neutral restrooms, because we don’t want you in our bathrooms. We have no idea what your intentions are, we just know you are not a woman.

    I am more lenient in this regard than many other radical feminists. If you look female, I don’t mind having you in my bathroom. (Before you ask me about “masculine women,” I can always tell a masculine woman as long as she isn’t on hormones; even the butchest women are noticeably female).

    Locker rooms? Well, don’t expose yourself, and I’m fine with that. Most women try to avoid flashing genitals anyway, and ours aren’t external like yours, if you haven’t had SRS.

    Other issues are different. Sports, you are still unfairly advantaged, and scholarships were not designed for you, they were designed for us, and we fought for them, not you. Organize for trans scholarships that we would be ineligible for.

    Prisons? If you’d had SRS and pass, then I am not against women’s prisons for you. Again, if you are non-passing, I think trans-specific wings of prison are not a bad idea.

    If you are non-passing, to me, none of this applies.

    For many other women none of this applies anyway and I respect their opinions.

    However, in no way are you actually a woman, if you were born male, regardless of how you feel.

  • calabasa

    SO WHAT?

    Women who are XX females who are of the sex that “can reproduce via their ova,” regardless of any disability, mutation, or deformity that changes reproductive capacity or genital appearance, ARE FEMALE. MEN ARE NOT FEMALE. FEMALES ARE NOT AND NEVER WILL BE CASTRATED MALES.

    This is not difficult to understand.

  • calabasa

    What if I identify as a space alien from the planet Venus?

    Who are you to tell me I’m not Venusian?

    “Identity!” What utter bullshit. It would be laughable if it weren’t so dangerous, and not just because of the trans thing either.

  • calabasa

    Once again. Fucking entitled dude mansplaining to women who have experienced levels of oppression and sexual violence he couldn’t possibly understand.

    Get out of here.

  • calabasa

    “Women are at the final stages of equality…”

    Keep showing your ignorant ass, dude. Keep on doing it. You’re undermining the cause you’re here to support.

  • David Higgins

    No, I mean trans woman. You are seeking liberation from patriarchy, great, I’m more for matriarchs anyway. Patriarchy is well on it’s way out, you know it and I know it.

  • Americus91

    “Some trans women are very feminine, some are very masculine, and we exist on every other point of the masculinity/femininity spectrum.”

    This describes all human beings.

    You dudes have a PR problem.
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/69f3f0dd433984d1d125af176713bbb73b2f28d359f1ca88ea35070d8677b68f.jpg

  • BornACrone

    Wrong. When the body is used to having an opening there, repairing and maintaining it is far more straightforward.

  • Alienigena

    And frankly men gossip as much as women although the topics of gossip might be different than those women are attributed with gossiping about. Has anyone never listened, even briefly, to commerical talk radio when there is some kind of playoff, or championship series going on. They talk about male athletes as if they were courtiers concerned about the overall health of the kingdom as expressed in the bowel movements of their monarch. And what about dick flicks, the male equivalent to chick flicks that feature a lot of car chases, explosions (including exploding heads), gunfire, physical assaults and beatings, etc. Or just movies where almost 100% of the characters of any note are male. I was curious about the Netflix series The Punisher because the character in the movie just seemed so extreme and unpleasant. And there was literally a scene where one character said that he was ‘hung like a moose’. Are those conversations that men normally have with each other? if so, extremely vapid and trivial and sort of cringeworthy. The only way to view some content is to fast forward or drag the cursor through the video to shorten a 44 minute episode to 3-5 minutes.

    • calabasa

      There was a review about the Punisher series recently which hit the nail on the head as to why it makes no sense.

      The series tries to humanize someone who is basically a sociopathic example of pure bloodlust. It excuses him with “PTSD” (if that were an excuse, how many women would be violent murderers?), it excuses him in all sorts of ways, and tries to show a lot of added depths to the character.

      Okay, if it’s going to do that then it needs to show him GRAPPLING WITH HIS VIOLENCE and CHANGING. There is NO CHARACTER CHANGE. He just enacts his bloody revenge to its end, and then…is at a loss. Oh, really?

      It actually makes NO sense. A man who was having an awakening of “self” after violently reacting to the murder of his family would begin to question his actions. It could have been a meditation on masculinity and violence, but instead it becomes another excuse for a violent gore fest, which is the point of all this spectacle; it is basically pornography with a stronger-than-usual storyline as scaffolding for the main spectacle of stomach-churning violence, sold to us as “righteous” so we don’t have to feel bad about watching it. Talk about sincere character development sacrificed to the god of mindless male bloodlust.

      Would the main character’s WIFE have approved of his behavior, his descent into inhumanity? Why provide him with several more “humanizing” male characters as foils if not to promote character growth? What is the point of a flat character who is a relentless juggernaut of violence?

      It’s too bad because the MYSTERY was pretty good, in and of itself, and the series certainly could have found a way to make it about a man struggling to overcome the violence within himself, which would have been far more interesting; and they could have made it without the gratuitous gore fest, too (but then again, that was the whole point, so they never would). His wife and children are mere cannon fodder, women and children in refrigerators who serve as the catalyst for the non-arc of this tormented male character (seriously, there is NO arc so far, after how many bodies?), such a tired, old trope.

      As for the “man who is hung like a moose,” he felt threatened when his wife, who believes him dead, was attracted to his friend, and got drunk and tried to show him his penis, to show that it would “not be so easy to take his wife away,” because yeah, that is really how guys act and what they think women care about. If women were REALLY REALLY SOOO SHALLOW Mr. Moose’s beautiful wife wouldn’t be married to his scraggly ass in the first place, but yeah. I believe it IS unfortunately an accurate description of some men and some men’s thinking (unsurprisingly, sexist men are more likely to have low self-esteem and body image issues than their non-sexist–or, in this world, non-super-sexist–counterparts).

      So, yes, that show is SO WEIRD, as it’s ALL BASED around humanizing a demonic, sociopathic, inhuman character, without providing any sort of character arc or change in his behavior. It doesn’t make any sense–it’s just massive cognitive dissonance, intended to make the audience feel better about consuming pure torture porn–and at least one reviewer has called them out on this.

  • Alienigena

    “… so many women just “get it” – they can picture themselves with a male body”

    What evidence do you have for that claim? I find it very difficult to imagine myself in a male’s body and I don’t think that I am that unique. Nice use of a “sweeping generalization”.

  • Alienigena

    I am not sorry because I am just not interested in their claims. I know that trans activism is becoming more and more an attack on born women and for that I feel outrage but I find it a bit much that trans activists and their allies expect sympathy when I really don’t identify with their cause and their claims just seem utterly ludicrous. There is enough crap going on in women’s lives globally that I don’t feel an obligation to pander to the kind of people that others have called man babies. Which is what they are. Every time there is a ‘feel good’ story about these entitled bozos I just groan.

  • Yisheng Qingwa

    Yep. As are the seemingly constant threats of suicide.

    • Wren

      Yep, it’s a total men thing and common tactic of DV perps who go on to murder their partners. Threaten suicide and if that doesn’t work, kill her.

  • Yisheng Qingwa

    … and found like 48 cent and some lint…

  • Kris

    also, whether you implied it or not, “altering appearance (and NOT his biology)” as you say needs no distinguishing. There is never any altering of biology. He will never alter his biology, he can only remain a male that takes estrogen or inverts his penis requiring daily extensive cleaning and forceful dilation to keep the open wound relatively clean and artificially open. This is certainly a trans woman specific issue and activity, but nothing remotely related to being a female.

  • Kris

    are you claiming that a scientist, biologist, or medical doctor would not be able to tell the difference anatomically or physiologically between a trans woman and a “human person” with mullerian agenesis? Would they not know a category to put said human person into? Would they be bewildered as to what they might have in common anatomically or physiologically with another category of human? Said human person would have nothing in common with roughly 50% of other humans belonging to a biological category that shall now not be named? Or perhaps you are claiming that the enlightened scientists have now abandoned the categories that included characteristics that 50% of the human population fell into?

    • Omzig Online

      This dood cracks me up with the steady drivel of nonsense.

      Even in cases of newborn patients with a Dysorder of Sexual Developement (“Intersex”), the sex of the baby is very easily determined with a urogenital assessment and a pelvic ultrasound. Pretty simple stuff.

      If you really need to know if their SDS condition was caused by a genetic disease, you can draw labs to get their karyotype, but it’s not necessary to determine their sex. All you need is two eyes, a brain, and an ability to reject the dogmatic bullshit of the trans cult.

      There is a strong push within the trans cult to try to confuse laypeople and convince them that there is “no single definition of biological sex.” This is absolute garbage, and a deliberate attempt to exploit the general public’s ignorance on the topic of biology. Since most people don’t feel very confident in their knowledge of reproductive biology, this claim goes unchallenged all too often. I promise medical professionals are not standing around scratching our heads wondering whether a patient with mullerian agenesis is male or female.

      If any of these fucking asshats tries to tell you there’s no true definition of biological sex tell them this:

      All zygotes will become female fetuses unless TWO factors are present. BOTH factors must be present to create a male fetus, or the fertilized egg will automatically default to female:

      1) At least some influence from the Y chromosome (the SRY gene is in particular the one responsible for maleness)
      AND
      2) At least some sensitivity to androgens (androgens receptors)

      That’s it! Like I said, if you are missing even one of these factors, you’re a female. If anyone ever tries to feed you some garbage about DSD or “Intersex” people in an attempt to obfuscate the topic of biological sex, just point them to this definition and tell them to STFU.

  • Kris

    a human with XY chromosomes that allowed for a penis to develop.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Also why men abuse animals… They are vulnerable and less than, in terms of the hierarchy.

  • Kris

    yes, sometimes little boys are sexually assaulted. It doesn’t mean they were actually girls just because they were assaulted. What’s your point?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Based on his other comments (some of which are so odd and regressive they’ve not been published), I suspect not.

  • Kiwipally

    The irony of their position shows they are men – men logickx.

  • Kiwipally

    I am now wiping coffee off my monitor.

  • Missy

    It certainly sounds sarcastic since no sane person would suggest such ridiculous notions, but sadly these beliefs are common with the incel crowd. They truly are freaks of nature.

  • Melanie

    Have you noticed it’s recently gone from ‘identifying as a woman’ to having a ‘female identity’ or even having a female body, despite being male? It’s like they’re trying to take away every means we have to define ourselves. First we had to refer to ourselves as ‘female’ because ‘girl’ and ‘woman’ are now taken and can mean whatever they want it to mean. Now they’re coming after ‘female’ …

    • Raelee

      Yes! They want everything we have.

  • FierceMild

    I’m bi-dictator transimportantdude

  • calabasa

    That’s okay!

    I know what you mean. I had a brief (intensely creepy) experience of living with a trans “woman” in my mid-twenties.

    This was before the past few years when all this shit blew up, so I had little idea what I was dealing with. I had been corresponding with this person because they were on a list of good people to rent from for grad school (most of us were relocating). There were quite a few other dubious people on this list as well (a racist cat-killing old couple and a couple where the man was sexually predatory), so who the hell was recommending these people? Anyway.

    She described herself as an old-fashioned Southern gal in her fifties. I showed up and she was HUGE–6’3, at least, enormous shoulders, huge hands and feet, and very deep voice. She had enormous breasts as well and I still didn’t suspect anything wrong.

    However, so many little things were just *off.* The fridge of her old colonial home was packed to the gills with so much food I could not buy anything, most of it rotting. The cat pooped freely in the garage area. There was a room that was entirely for mannequin heads with wigs.

    I began to feel seriously creeped out, and could not sleep. Searching for toothpaste, I found Xanax in the medicine cabinet on my third night there, and took one, hoping it would help me relax and finally sleep there.

    Unfortunately, it had a much more powerful effect. Apparently, in my blacked-out stated, I shook all the pills out on the counter and lined them up in a neat little line. I also sent another person on the “good renters” list an SOS in the middle of the night.

    The next day, I went to meet with that person, and came back, intending to tell this woman I was moving out. (Several other creepy things had occurred: her running naked all the time from the bathroom to her room, so I could only see her backside; showering in the downstairs restroom and having words show up in the fog on the mirror: “‘Name,’ what are you running to, what are you running from?” The name that showed up was NOT the name she gave me either but an alternate name I later found out she went by).

    She was on the couch, naked under a blanket. She confronted me sternly about what had happened, asking me what was wrong (she found the neat little line of pills). She told me she was taking them after “hip revision surgery in Thailand” and she was concerned as I did not seem like a pill head and she couldn’t understand it.

    I burst into tears and said I missed my boyfriend, who was going to grad school across the country, and also that I was worried about being so far from my school’s campus without a car, and I told her I’d have to move out. She said she understood, and said, “Oh, honey,” and opened her arms, and I rushed into them, crying.

    I then told her how embarrassed I felt about the whole thing. She said, “Oh, honey. That’s nothing. Just wait until you’re giving birth. I remember I had my legs up in the stirrups and the whole hospital dropped by to see how I was doing. The janitor would poke his head in for a look and say, “How’s she doing?” And the nurse would scream, “Still ten centimeters!” Now THAT’S embarrassing!”

    She had also complained to me before of having to pay alimony to her ex-husband, ending with a screed about manipulative men and saying “fuck the patriarchy!”

    I couldn’t get wifi there, and I needed to download some documents to figure out where my orientation was the next day, so I asked to borrow her smartphone.

    Well, I did something else I am not proud of: because I still didn’t trust her, I typed every first letter of the alphabet into the Google search bar to see what popped up. Her love of giant dildos, desire to be dominated, and fetish for whips, chains and handcuffs popped up.

    I thought, “Wow,” and then went to download the documentation I needed. When I opened it in Adobe Acrobat, I saw some other files in there about the legal requirements for changing one’s sex on one’s birth certificate.

    I later found out another classmate–a male classmate–had lived with “her” briefly, and left because of how weird “she” acted and the fact that he had caught “her” spying through the keyhole of the bathroom (and old-fashioned, large-sized keyhole) while he was taking a shower. This classmate told me that books about transition had been out while he was living there; apparently she put them away by the next week, when I came.

    So, this man had had SRS in Thailand, and was paying alimony to his wife and complaining bitterly about it, and had been present at the birth of their daughter. Somehow, though, he had made all of this experience “his” to the point where he made his wife’s birth story his own.

    No wonder I thought he was creepy.

    And I do understand how covert narcissism works, very well. It’s often about trying to steal the identity of a person the narcissist envies. The overlap between covert narcissism and cross-dressing is kind of astonishing; my ex–a covert narc–described dressing up as a woman in his twenties during a “breakdown,” as he described it, and getting first hit on and then, when it was discovered he was male, set upon, and then kicked out of a bar for this female persona (for which he had a name and everything). After he abused me he expressed the desire to go to a John Waters party as “Divine” (horrifying; he would have looked just horrifying. He’s 38 years old now and would have been ugly as hell). Covert narcissism is also more associated with rape and pedophilia; so is autogynephelia, and voyeurism and exhibitionism. After he raped me and ruined my life last year, he did everything possible to try to “become” what he saw as “my” persona. He apparently saw me as a poet and was very jealous of that; he joined all the poetry societies in town, pushed to run several literary reading series, did poetry and slam contests with high school students, etc. He was also aware of how feminist and anti-rape I am and he joined all those movements, too (whether to try to further appropriate my identity and interests, or to creep on other victims, or to gain enjoyment from listening to victims’ stories, or to try to build up an identity for himself as a “good guy” by working on these issues, or out of a general obsession with rape and the horribleness of males which began after what he did to me, or because he actually felt bad about any of it, I don’t know).

    I am completely aware of how this type of narcissism works and why these men want to appropriate others’ lives and experiences and the lengths to which they will go to do it. There is a lack at the center here, a lack which feeding into their narcissism by validating their “feminine identities” and confirming their victim narrative will only exacerbate.

    ETA: I also lived with a “trans woman” for quite a while last year, but I knew he was a man; it was weird but not as creepy as that situation. He also suffers from a total lack of a solid identity combined with high suggestibility, and a sissification fetish/seeing women and womanhood in an unfortunate way, but he pushes that out of his consciousness; he’s not a bad person underneath all this confusion, and not dangerous (unlike my ex and a lot of these men). We became good friends, he provoked me about the trans issue before I left, since then he has been nice to me and asked me to hang out with him again. He’s another sad case of someone I would have really liked if he weren’t so messed up.

    I remember one commenter on here who said two of her rapists had since transitioned to women and were receiving tons of sympathy and support, and honestly I CAN’T EVEN. If I found out my ex declared himself a trans woman, I would be FURIOUS. I wouldn’t even want to know about it.

    • Kiwipally

      That’s horrifying.

  • BornACrone

    If she’s already Bill Gates, can I be Napoleon? Or if Russia’s on the line, I can be Catherine the Great. She had a ton of hotties and at least tried to modernize things over there … (The horse rumor was posthumous sexist slander.)

  • Wren

    I’m starting to rethink that the majority of trans identified men are mentally ill. I feel like it’s an insult to mentally ill people. These are cunning manipulators determined to abuse women and children and violate their boundaries. Mentally ill people are usually only hurting themselves.

    • Kiwipally

      I see the ones with dysphoria/dysmorphia as mentally ill (because they have dysphoria/dysmorphia, which are mental illnesses) but the MRAs are abusers and the autogynophiles are perverts. I may be in the minority of people who do not view paraphilias as mental illness.

      The abusers and the perverts are the (cunning) manipulators.

  • Hanakai

    Not all psychiatrists and psychologists buy into modern trans-insanity. The older ones, particularly, are quite clear that transsexualism is a psychiatric disorder involving delusions and other disorders.

    Once a few psychiatrists and medical doctors and hospitals are sued for transitioning children and adults even, that some of the trans-insanity will stop. Some of the children being fed transition hormones and puberty blockers will not be happy to learn that they are sterile and have other problems when they reach adulthood. After a few court judgments, I think there will be a trend away from recommending surgical mutilation as a treatment for delusions and gender dysphoria. But we will see.

    Seriously, psychiatrists are first medical doctors and they KNOW that surgery and surgical amputation of healthy organs is not the treatment for mental disorders, and they have known this since the profession stopped doing prefrontal lobotomies as alleged cures for mental illness. Greed has gotten ahold of the profession, as trans-surgeries are expensive, there is a lot of medical follow-up, the people need to be on hormones for life, there is lots of medical money to be made. For now. Until the mutilators get sued enough.

  • Omzig Online

    Right??

    I wonder if transgender-identified males get their first paycheck and think “Hey, wait — this paycheck is too high! I can’t accept this much money. It feels all wrong to me. Doesn’t the payroll department understand that I’m a woman? I demand that you validate my womanhood by taking 30% of my paycheck away right now!”

    I don’t see it happening, though. They want to maintain all that male privilege no matter what, it seems.

  • Wren

    Bullshit. You know you are not a woman, that’s why you’re so reactionary and defensive. And you will never come up with a reasonable explanation cause deep down you know you are a hoax.

  • BornACrone

    So if I put a human sperm next to an egg in a coffee cup, a baby will result? Nothing else is required, just sperm and egg … and coffee cup? Sure about that?

    • Kiwipally

      And I can get the sperm from a trans identified female and the egg from a woman, obvs.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I think you’re completely misunderstanding what I/feminists are saying about transgenderism… We don’t believe trans-identified people are ‘other,’ we believe transgenderism isn’t a real thing at all. We don’t believe there is such thing as having a ‘gender identity’ and believe EVERYONE struggles with what some call ‘gender dysphoria,’ meaning that NO ONE fits perfectly within sexist gender roles.

  • Missy

    The only real plus gay men have over straight men is that they lack the threat of sexual violence, at least towards women and girls. Another plus for trans gay men specifically is that they won’t try to force themselves on lesbians the way straight trans males would and do. Other than that, too many gay men are misogynistic and still benefit from male privilege if not their sexual orientation.

  • FierceMild

    And I’ll have to get Bill from accounting to repeat everything I say all day if I want anyone to listen.

  • FierceMild

    I have to disagree. I have had many a fundamental Christian just come out and say “it’s a matter of faith and can’t be proved,” but not one transactivists will ever cop to their lunacy.

  • Hanakai

    Transgenderism does not exist in Nature. It is not a real thing. It is the creation of mentally ill men. If you review the psychiatric literature, you will note that no such thing as transgenderism was reported before 1950. It simply did not exist. Back then, there were male homosexuals and there was cross-dressers and transvestites, but these folks did not claim to be women, they knew they were male. Transgenderism is a new mental illness devised by delusional males in recent history.

    The phrase ‘gender nonbinary people’ makes no sense and is contrary to reality. Nature made humans as a dimorphic species, male and female. To claim to be nonbinary in a binary dimorphic species is nonsense, utter rubbish.

    Sadly, the environment has been so toxified with industrial chemical and agricultural herbicides and pesticides that the bodies of too-many moderns are full of dioxins, 2,4-D, 2,4,5-T, endocrine disruptors, phtalates, BPA, various carcinogens. As a result of this poisoning, the neurology and thinking of a whole generation has gone off the rails and people are delusional in thinking that males are females and humans are nonbinary. The environmental toxicity has caused mental illness and sexual confusion.

    Black people exist in Nature. Gay people exist in Nature. They are not other, but are part of the diverse normal and sane tapestry of humanity.

    Transgenderism is the creation of mentally ill delusional men and supported by a medical and pharmaceutical industry able to reap enormous profits from indulging the delusions of the ill.

  • Hanakai

    The left-wing view is that women are public property, there to be exploited by any and all men.

    The right-wing view is that women are private property, there to be servants to the man whose property she is, as wife or as mother or daughter.

    • AT42

      I am a left wing woman and believe me no left wing woman I know is anyone’s property. Any man who thinks like that isn’t left wing by my definition!!!
      I do know men usually the sort that read the right wing press who do think of women as property.
      They are definitely not left wing!!!!

      • Kiwipally

        #NoTrueScotsman derail.

  • Hanakai

    Men who have serious mental defects find it difficult or impossible to find mates. That is your problem. No sane woman wants to partner with or reproduce with a serious mental case.

    We do not need or want the government or male to create an enforced mating policy which insures that creeps and emotional cripples and mental defectives like yourself get to use women as cum-dumpsters. Go masturbate, you pervert.

  • Hanakai

    A fair number of mentally ill people are quite nice. But that does not make them mentally healthy or sane. Same with transsexuals — while individuals can be nice, they are still mentally ill, delusional and seeking to usurp the rights and spaces of women. And quite often, transsexuals are not nice at all —- often they are hysterical, self-entitled, narcissistic and grossly misogynistic.

  • Hanakai

    Not all species of dolphins rape. Some male dolphins have recently been observed wooing female dolphins by bringing them gifts of sea sponges. Some of the dolphin species are matriarchal, matrilineal and matrifocal and the males in these species treat the females very well and let the females lead — resident orcas which are the largest of the dolphins are like this.

    It also should be pointed out that the bodies of marine mammals are so poisoned and toxified these days by the chemicals of industrial man that behavior has become pathological. Here in the Pacific Northwest, when an orca or Pacific white-sided dolphin washes up deceased, the corpse has to be dealt with as hazardous waste, so full of toxins are their bodies.

    I pretty much prefer any mammal species to humans. Other species do not make war, destroy planets or kill for sport.

  • Hanakai

    Does anyone else think that trying to engage in dialogue with transsexual supporters and apologists here is a total waste of time? Seriously, it is like trying to discourse with a mental patient who is not grounded in reality. These folks are incapable of logic or rational discourse. They deny biology and objective reality.

    Further, it is giving attention yet again to narcissistic men. They feed on this attention like a vulture feeds on a corpse. Engaging with these male transsexuals does nothing to help dismantle the patriarchy or improve the world for women. It only wastes our time and energy. Let the transsexuals go somewhere else and waste the time of other delusional people.

    • Alienigena

      “Does anyone else think that trying to engage in dialogue with transsexual supporters and apologists here is a total waste of time?”

      Yes, but they say such incredibly insensitive, inaccurate, misogynist things that one feels the need to respond despite the fact that one knows they have an inability to understand the pov of anyone but their loony-tune confederates.

  • calabasa

    Actually, we are not othering them, they are othering us. They have renamed us “cis.” Do you know any minority powerful enough to rename the group they call “oppressors,” and to change the law to change the language to suit their needs, even if these are needs not based in basic human rights but based in religious belief systems?

    Oh, that’s right, powerful religious cults who encourage social conformity and shame people as “heretics,” “witches” and “bigots” for not going along, because that’s how they grow their power base. Christianity–a small but powerful cult–became the rule of law that changed European history as a political decision made “to protect the Roman empire from strife” by the emperor Constantine. That really seems to have worked out, right?

    Who is othering whom here? Who are really “not enough” here, for simply *being* something without “earning” it? Who is creating and insisting upon this distinction? It’s not us.

    We are simply stating material reality and fighting for our own rights.

    It’s the identity politickers who revel in their “othered” status and try to use it to score points, as much as claiming their own “otheredness” undermines the very equality they say they strive for. Most of us want to be no longer “othered.”

    Also, the whole premise of that quote is faulty. Plenty of people would say “women or blacks are like this but we are like that,” and receive *far less backlash than for saying “trans people are like this or that.”* “Trans” has become THE MOST protected class there is, the one which no one is able to challenge, not just in terms of basic rights but even in terms of religious beliefs and unreasonable requests; look at the gains made by the gender identity movement in twenty years that women could scarcely make in two thousand. This is a powerful political juggernaut and it’s disingenuous and intellectually bankrupt to repeat such a (poorly thought-out) quote and sadly shake your head and say, “That’s where we are in 2017 with trans and non-binary folk.” Absolute and utter lies, and I believe that you know it. Otherwise women with gender-critical beliefs would not be subject to rape and death threats or no platforming for saying something as simple as “trans women and women are different” or “males cannot be female” or asking “what does it mean to ‘feel like’ a woman?” Otherwise we would not be pushing children to transition or firing teachers for accidental “misgendering,” or passing laws about not sexing someone correctly when *men still aren’t even punished for rape in our society nearly one hundred percent of the time.*

    The only thing we as feminists believe is that males cannot be female and vice versa and that the system of gender is a violent caste system that is meant to oppress female people and to control the behavior of both sexes. That is not a belief that says “trans people are like this and we are like that”–we, more than almost anyone, considering the research we have done that so many who are less invested in knowing the truth, both in and out of the movement, have not–we know there are MANY reasons people decide to “identity as trans or non-binary” so it would be pointless to see “trans women are like this one other thing and we are like that one other thing’–we are simply trying to get to the bottom of this regressive political movement championing a social contagion, its roots in the backlash against women and gays and in the march toward “identity” as the defining feature of our age, and we are stating that the religious concept of “gender identity” directly contradicts and stands in opposition to our work as feminism.

    That is not “othering,” it is MEN who create the “feminine” and use it to other women, and trans people have even twisted the words of Simone de Beauvoir, the woman who described this process so well in “The Second Sex,” in order to try to justify their cause, so get out of here with your sanctimonious self-righteous blather about that which you know not of.

    • CatherineTGWShark

      They also brands us as TERFs. But I suppose, to trans activists, that’s not othering at all.

  • calabasa

    Yup. You nailed it.

    If only it were *only* baking cookies and licking envelopes, tedious as those woman-relegated tasks may be. Unfortunately there’s a whole lot more you’re leaving out that is rather more…distasteful than either cookies or the flaps of envelopes.

  • lk

    Right, if it is so impossible to define female…then how can anyone claim to have a female identity?

    If male/female is not a matter of biological fact but a matter of identity/feeling..then there must be some universal female identity/feeling that all women have? What exactly is that feeling/identity that is shared by all women?

  • Lucia Fiero

    Feminists are the ones under attack. I’ve been banned for life on Twitter just last week for constantly tweeting irrefutable feminist logic. Twitter calls it harassment. Feminism is considered harassment. Where the men’s rights activists (“feminism is a cancer”) have failed to silence us, the trans activists have succeeded. Feminism and separatism are now considered “harassment” and “hate speech” and will get you banned for life on Twitter.

  • peopleareweird

    That’s a good one. “I identify with Bill Gates. As such, I am entitled to *my/BG*’s bank account. If you don’t give me access to it right now, you are denying my identity, which is literal violence. Give it to me or you will be guilty of my suicide.” LMAO

  • peopleareweird

    I doubt goverments would want men who develop mental defects that easily to reproduce.

    • Zoë Lafantaisie

      LOL –

  • Omzig Online

    Agreed!

    However, it does raise the question of what a “true trans” person really is. At its core, even a “true” transgender-identified male is still someone who insists on consuming limited space and resources that are not intended for them. I’m not sure it’s worth making a distinction between a truly delusional transgender-identified male with Gender Dysphoria, and a male pervert in a dress. At the end of the day, they’re both parasitically leaching us of resources that were intended for females.

    Liberals definitely have a compulsive need to feel like they’re sticking up for the most marginalized underdogs of society. It’s not a bad impulse at all; it’s quite adorable, really. But I guess they feel as though they’ve run out of truly marginalized voices to amplify, so lately they’ve been propping up a bunch of cross-dressers and insisting that they’ve found the next “Civil Rights Movement” of our time. Liberals are making themselves look gullible and ridiculous with this trans cult nonsense.

  • peopleareweird

    Yes, there are many women who are afraid of repercussions, some of them have even expressed previously that they were against transideology.
    I am not talking about that, I am talking about average women that, if asked, would tell you that they don’t think men are superior to women or even claim that women are superior to men in some sense. But then, the way the act is the opposite, for instance, they run to support men’s interests but they don’t do the same with women. I think that it is BECAUSE they recognize trans identified men as men that they support them. If they really saw them as women, they would just think it is their own problem and let them to fend for themselves or even harass them, which is the way they usually act with other women.

  • Hanakai

    It sounds crazy to you because you are insane. Insane and out of touch with reality. The very definition of psychosis. Insanity describes mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality.

    Your fantasy that you are female marks you as insane and severely mentally ill.

    • Kiwipally

      And his insistence in ignoring girls’ and women’s boundaries makes him dangerous.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Do you understand that feminists’ primary concern is ending male violence against women and liberating women from male supremacy? If so, you should understand why women have the right to gather amongst themselves, in spaces free from males.

    • Jennifer Cole

      Educate yourself. A transgender woman is not a “man”.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Educate myself on what? Your religion? The vast majority of people in the world understand what ‘male’ and ‘female’ mean. Do you?

      • Kiwipally

        How unusual, a man coming along to tell a woman she is ignorant. Must be a day ending in y.

      • M. Zoidberg

        Please, please, please define woman for us.

      • FierceMild

        What is a man?

      • Hanakai

        Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Thanks for the laugh, delusional one.

        Time to take your meds and get back on the ward with the other delusionals and psychotics out of touch with reality.

      • thebewilderness

        Those of us in the reality based community are sufficiently educated to know a fool putting on a male dominance display when we see you.

      • Zuzanna Smith

        By “educate yourself” you mean surrender to the brainwashing of the transcult, right? Just go ahead and speak plainly, sir.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Ok. If you are defining gender dysphoria as a mental illness, that’s fine. Does that mean that anyone who identifies as transgender must have been diagnosed with said mental illness?

  • Meghan Murphy

    “Meghan Murphy is way out of line to be even opening her mouth and talking about our experiences when she has not even walked an inch in our shoes.”

    But aren’t you a woman? In which case, as a woman, I indeed have ‘walked in your shoes,’ no?

    • CatherineTGWShark

      It’s amazing how open about his misogyny he is.
      He pretty much said that a woman should sit down and shut up and let transwomen men speak.

  • Meghan Murphy

    So whatever a person believes inside their head is always and inarguably true? That seems potentially… messy.

  • Meghan Murphy

    What is a girl?

  • Wren

    Radical feminists fully support marriage equality (although many of us have no interest in marriage), and we are completely against unnecessary medical interventions on children. Are you confused or drunk?

  • BornACrone

    It’s not all about being female at all.They pick and choose, doing whichever will let them get the most sympathy cookies and shaft women’s policies at any given time.

  • Meghan Murphy

    What is a ‘male identity’?

  • BornACrone

    That’s the truth. Nothing proves that they are men more than this. Women have fought for centuries for even the merest scraps and crumbs, and these chuckleheads come along, whine a little on Twitter, and suddenly whole governments are doing backflips to make them happy. THEY ARE MEN, with all the privilege accruing to manhood.

  • BornACrone

    Bullshit. ONE in all history, and we aren’t that rare, no matter how much you want to convince yourselves of it — and convince yourselves, as you do every day on social media, that we are purveyors of LITERAL VIOLENCE and hate crimes … yet we’re remarkably nonviolent for all that bloodlust you claim emanates from us.

  • Cassandra

    Males aren’t females.

    There’s no such thing as “cis.”

    Males have no reason to fear females in male spaces. We have every reason to fear males in female spaces.

    Also, go fuck yourself.

  • Cassandra

    Don’t try to position males who want to “identify” as women as oppressed. We don’t fall for the banana in the tailpipe around here.

  • Wren

    You’re disingenuous. Other than size, there is no scientific consensus on differences between male and female brains. Unless you’re some kind of fucking nazi, you should know that making claims about “brain differences” between different classes of people is dangerous territory. Differentiation based on pseudo science leads to dehumanization.
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170117135943.htm
    http://www.wired.co.uk/article/male-female-brain-difference-not-significant
    https://www.npr.org/2011/03/29/134956180/criminals-see-their-victims-as-less-than-human

    • Autumn Sandeen

      I don’t remember making a point about brain sizes. Do you?

      The two papers I referred to were papers that aggrigated other papers: those papers didn’t just refer to brain size.

      I’m sorry I got off onto the derail. My point was about the “we/they” distinction, not biologics that the Endocrine Society considers scientifically persuasive

  • Alienigena

    “Meghan Murphy wrote…. “he was socialized as a male” – she totally ignores the fact that trans women have no choice and are forced to socialise as males which often leads to withdrawal and social isolation.”

    You have absolutely no clue about the experience of biological females, whatsoever. We did not choose to be female but we are not delusional enough to believe that we can magically think ourselves into a different sex or identity. Nor do most of us want to do so. Girls are heavily socialised to be compliant, to not question authority, to be quiet, to be stoic in the face of abuse, to take less and expect less from the world, and to expect abuse from males if they ‘step out of line’ (which is very easy to do). Your words make it seem as if you don’t believe that girls and women become socially isolated as a result of their life experience and how they are treated and perceived by others. Female bodies (and their athletic abilities, ‘throw like a girl’) are routinely mocked by males even while being desired by them. Women and girls often withdraw from social interaction (losing potential support) when they are sexually harassed and abused by biological males.

    You have to be extremely tone deaf, callous and self-centred to suggest that TIMs have it worse than biological females. I think that anorexia represents a withdrawl into the self (on part of girls whose bodies are maturing) and away from the world and the rates are much higher for biological females than for males.
    https://www.eatingdisorderhope.com/treatment-for-eating-disorders/co-occurring-dual-diagnosis/anxiety/eating-disorders-and-isolation

    There are also the damaging effects of sexual objectification on women and girls. Which none of us choose. We believe that we are full and complete human beings not just body parts or a source of sexual gratification for biological males.

    “According to Dr. Margaret Chan, Director-General of the World Health Organization, the analysis of global data reveals alarming results indicating that the prevalence of violence against women is a worldwide health epidemic (World Health Organization, 2013). Given its ubiquitous nature and contributing status to the perpetuation of gender violence and other sexist beliefs and behaviors, sexual objectification demands a detailed exploration in order to reach a more nuanced understanding of its consequences.”
    https://steinhardt.nyu.edu/appsych/opus/issues/2016/spring/rooney

    • Leo

      “I think that anorexia represents a withdrawl into the self (on part of girls whose bodies are maturing) and away from the world and the rates are much higher for biological females than for males.”

      I’m sceptical – anorexia has a fair bit in common with OCD, which can manifest in various ways, and there’s common co-morbidity. Autism can include both disordered eating and OCD, too. I find the evidence for a biological cause or tendency convincing. I’ve had purely OCD-related eating issues. The thing with OCD is, it could look like social factors were the causal ones, because what it tends to do, is latch onto things important to the person – because if the obsessive thoughts weren’t making you anxious you’d be able to ignore them easier. An atheist isn’t going to have religious obsessions/compulsions, but they’re a common type in religious people. Maybe anorexia does something similar to that, with social factors influencing the precise manifestation, explaining the higher prevalence in girls and focus on thinness? Personally I agree with theories about a cluster of related disorders, autism/OCD/anorexia/BDD/gender dysphoria.

  • Wren

    blech.

  • Cassandra

    It’s profitable to do so, isn’t it?

    • Melanie

      And politically correct. Not many psychologists would dare say differently nowadays, at risk to their careers. I don’t know if you ever read Psychology Today but judging from that publication psychologists have a lot of troubling and illogical theories that are based in their own biases and agendas. Psychological theory seems very much influenced by personal biases and social changes and trends.

  • Jennifer Cole

    Ms. Murphy clearly gives her own prejudice away when she consistently refers to Shon Faye as “he”. Does the person in this photograph look like they want to be addressed with masculine pronouns? She did not bring a man into the women’s shelter, so how the hell she is not respecting the autonomy of women? It is nothing short of hateful to suggest that simply because a transgender woman cannot conceive a child, it is acceptable to turn her away from the shelter knowing she is statistically more likely than a biological woman to be murdered by an abusive significant other, spouse, or former partner. What the hell is wrong with this writer?

    • Meghan Murphy

      Wait, are you saying that makeup determines womanhood? Are butch lesbians not women because they don’t look like Shon? It seems you are the one who is prejudiced…

    • Kiwipally

      You said “she is statistically more likely than a biological woman to be murdered by an abusive significant other, spouse, or former partner.”

      I do not believe you. Evidence please. And clearly this thread has the misogynists out in force.

      • Hanakai

        I have posted actual data above. J. Cole speaks untruth.

    • calabasa

      “she is statistically more likely than a biological woman to be murdered by an abusive significant other, spouse, or former partner.”

      Um, what?

      Also, if we let in those who “pass,” or those who date men, we’d have to let in all the “lesbian trans women” who don’t, wouldn’t we? You’re aware there already has been at least one case of a MtF person raping someone in a shelter?

      How about an abuser claiming he’s a battered woman to get into a shelter and murder his wife?

      There’s a reason men aren’t even allowed to know the LOCATION of these shelter. Can’t you even begin to see the logistical nightmare this creates?

      How about trans people organizing to fund trans DV shelters? DV shelters do not exist to validate anyone’s identity. That is not their purpose.

    • M. Zoidberg

      Trans identified males are men. No amount of plastic surgery or hormones is going to change years of socialisation and biology. The fact that you think that men can “wear” womanhood is insulting to women.

    • Hanakai

      There is no such thing as a transgender woman. This is a misnomer. A man cannot become a woman, not by surgery, hormones or feelings. One is born either a female (XX) or male (XY) and that biological fact cannot be changed.

      If a delusional male who thinks he is female is in need of shelter, he can go buy or lease a place, or he can check into the nearest public hospital mental ward, or he can go to the police. Or he can go to whatever the so-called transsexual population has devised to serve their kind.

      It is the height of male privilege to seek to usurp what women have created for the benefit of women and to seek entry into women’s spaces.

      Begone Beelzebub!

    • Hanakai

      J. Cole writes that a transsexual male pretending to be female “is statistically more likely than a biological women to be murdered by an abusive significant other, spouse, or former partner.”

      This is absolute hogwash and an out-an-out lie. Transsexuals lie about their sex, so no wonder they have no compunction about promulgating other lies.

      According to the Center for Disease Control, more than half of American female (XX chromosomes) homicide victims were killed in connection with intimate partner violence. Fifty-five percent of female homicide deaths were perpetrated by a male intimate partner of the decedent.

      Of the 23 homicides or suspicious deaths of transsexual males pretending to be females in the USA in 2017, two were killed by police. One was killed by a partner. In 18 of the 23 cases, no suspect was found, indicating that partners were not involved, as police always look to the spouse or partner first in a murder case. Arrests of non-partner suspects were made in the remaining cases. So, the real data is that the transsexual males pretending to be women have are unlikely to be killed by a partner, a mere 4% of transsexual homicides being committed by the intimate partner. In other words, a real women is more than 14 times as likely to be killed by a partner than a trans-male-faking-femaleness.

      Now, the other thing that lying does not reveal is that most of the transsexual males-faking-femaleness homicide victims were people of color, usually black, and living in high crime neighborhoods; and further that most of these homicides involved the transsexual, often drug-addicted, working in prostitution.

      And prostitution is the most dangerous work, as a female prostitute is 51 times more likely to be murdered while working than that of the second most dangerous occupation, that of liquor store clerk.

      Transsexual males-pretending-femaleness have little chance of being homicide victims if they are white and if they are not working in prostitution.

    • thebewilderness

      You tell a lie. Trans identified males are less likely to be murdered than either men or women.
      In fact this year in the UK there are more trans identified male murderers than there are trans identified male victims. https://medium.com/athena-talks/trans-murder-rates-the-data-120b60b19cb4

  • Rich Garcia

    @melodymoore:disqus I’ll entertain your arguments, since I am a lot more adverse to playing fair with people who wish to deny reality.

    “You are stripped of all male privilege the moment you come out and placed on the lowest rungs of sexual privilege where males sit at the top and women sit just under them followed by gay people. Trans women are automatically placed on the lowest rungs of this hierarchical ladder. This is why trans women are used the whipping post of all debates around same sex equality even by the gay community.”

    “Trans women”, that is men who think that they are women, are portrayed in the media as a brave, persecuted minority who should be accepted as women. Men who become transsexual (or transgender) retain the privileges that come with being male like positions of employment and a greater pay than actual women, while being given the authority to dictate discussions on gender by censoring and no-platforming women who disagree with them.

    “The longer you are on hormones and in transition the more and more you experience the exact same misogyny experienced by cisgendered women.”

    You experience the violence and hostility that comes with being a male who chooses to reject masculinity. In Patriarchy any boy or man who isn’t considered rough, macho, or virile is dismissed as weak and “effeminate”, and should be treated how females are regularly treated.

    “First of all the ability to be able to get pregnant and give birth to a child never defines any woman. This is actually a really misogynistic statement and denigrates all other cisgendered women who are infertile erasing their feminine identity.”

    Motherhood doesn’t define womanhood, yet it still doesn’t take from the fact that women are the ones who get pregnant and birth children. This is a unique biological function that is inherent to females of most living species. What’s misogynistic is referring to women as “cisgendered”, as if there aren’t any women who reject feminine cultural norms.

    “Some trans women have suffered sexual abuse since childhood, I too was one of these people who have been sexually abused. I was seen as an easy target for a sexual predator because I was so socially withdrawn and isolated.”

    It’s unfortunate what you went through, but children of both sexes have always been targets for sexual predators.

    “As for living with the fear of being raped as a woman, I’ve had a couple of guys who have tried to force themselves upon me and rape me, luckily I’ve been able to defend myself. The point here is that I do live with the fear of being raped, abused, and experiencing violence just like any other woman, but I’ve also got the added fear of experiencing transphobic violence, something the writer has no clue about.”

    You’re not a woman, first of all. And second, nobody denies that males who live as transsexuals or transgenders are assaulted by other males who malign and bully them because of their outward appearance and presentation. But that falls under the category of male-on-male violence. It is not a feminist issue.

    “So Meghan Murphy is way out of line to be even opening her mouth and talking about our experiences when she has not even walked an inch in our shoes.”

    Nobody is talking about your experiences. But you and your kind are denying girls and women the right to speak about theirs, because your ilk has created a stigma around what it means to be a woman by censoring or downplaying the fact that females are a biological sex class. Never in human history has any topic been more taboo than relaying one’s experiences as a female living under a Patriarchy.

  • Wren

    You just completely contradicted your earlier comment. You said,

    “I think the problem you have is that so many women just “get it” – they can picture themselves with a male body and get a sense that they would still be women, even if they didn’t look like women.”

    So which is it, women can ‘get it’ or not?? Do you read what you write?
    And I really don’t want you to answer because it’s clear to me that you’ve either had a head injury or are sniffing glue. There’s no reason to engage with you further.

    • FierceMild

      Wren, stop being so binary! He could have a head injury and be sniffing glue. No need for the exclusivity. It’s always either or with you.

  • Cassandra

    You sound so stupid.

    • Kiwipally

      Because he is – Occam’s razor.

  • Rich Garcia

    Oh please! He’s a white man in makeup and a dress.

  • Wren

    Put the glue down.

  • FierceMild

    A girl is a female child. Shon Faye is a male adult. Way to be both counter factual and vaguely pedophilic in the same sentence.

  • thebewilderness

    You can’t have it both ways d00d. Trying to silence women while claiming that you are a woman is ridiculous. Your arguments are specious and your credibility is zip.

  • thebewilderness

    These male dominance displays are inappropriate on a Feminist blog. The MRA blogs will be a better fit for you.

  • FierceMild

    If you think the meaning of life is sticking your penis in another person, regardless of her feeling about it, I think you should consider shuffling off this mortal coil.

    • calabasa

      “I think you should consider shuffling off this mortal coil”

      Ha ha ha! Lol!

      “But what dreams may come…

      …must give us pause”

      I think that’s what this guy is worried about (if he isn’t he should be).

  • thebewilderness

    Failure to object is assumed to be acquiescence.

  • FierceMild

    What kind of marine mammal?

    • Hanakai

      Resident orca, female.

  • thebewilderness

    You are JAQing off all over us and it is disgusting.

  • Rich Garcia

    @disqus_8c9jsWcXTU:disqus Because you felt you were supposed to have a body like your sister, what does that mean exactly? And if gender roles are what people do, then what is gender identity?

  • lk

    What is female identity? What is male identity?

    It is a form of delusion to believe you are something, despite all evidence to the contrary. If a person is born with a penis, testicles, xy chromosomes..he is a male, no matter how much he believes or identifies with woman or feels like one…this does not make him one.

  • FierceMild

    Giving puberty blockers to children is 100% unethical. We do not know what side effects thy will have other then the intended retardation of physical development as well as retardation of brain development and sterilization.

  • calabasa

    Are you aware that half of the convicted and nearly two thirds of the charged MtF population in the UK are convicted of or charged with sex crimes, as opposed to seventeen percent of the “cis” male prison population convicted of prison crimes overall?

    There is an undeniable link between the paraphilia of autogynephilia and other more dangerous paraphilias. There is ALSO the undeniable tendency of non-autogynephilic male sex criminals to want to say they are women in order to gain access to victims or get off for their crimes.

    Does this mean all men who claim to be lesbians are rapists? No. Does this say anything about homosexual men who “feel female?” Not at all.

    Nevertheless, they are a large contingent of the “trans” population, and some of the most vocal. Women’s concerns are real.

  • Kiwipally

    You are lying or deluded.

  • Missy

    *Yawn*

    Same old, same old.

  • calabasa

    Yeah, same here. It was one of those “I’m going to feel your breasts and remark on how strange and amazing breasts are and it’s okay because I’m gay” things.

    I’m not sure I’ve ever done that to another woman and said it’s “okay because I’m straight.”

  • Kiwipally

    In your original comment you quote Baynard (not Bayard, as you wrote): “”‘Homosexuality’ remains an identity that is subject to a ‘we/they’ distinction. People who would not say ‘I am like this, but black people are like that,’ or ‘we are like this, but women are like that.’ or ‘we are like this, but Jews are like that,’ find it simple to say, ‘homosexuals are like that, but we are like this.’””

    Homosexuality and people of colour are not emergent minority populations. They have always existed. They have always been capable of being identified. Whether or not they collectively organised is irrelevant to this. Membership of these groups is often obvious, hence the discussions about being “straight passing” or “white passing”.

    All human groups draw a we/they distinction, even in groups that have been arbitrarily created (e.g. see http://www.janeelliott.com/ ).

    The we/they distinction has caused wars, slavery, lynchings, FGM, prevented women from voting or being educated, and thrust terrifying medical “treatments” such as hysterectomy and lobotomy onto women.

    So piss off with your empty statements and your lack of concern about what has actually happened to women.

    Your misogyny is evident. So is your racism.

  • M. Zoidberg

    Hi troll. *waves*

  • Kiwipally

    It’s so racist as well. There are loads of non-white cultures where men have long hair and/or do not wear clothing resembling shorts or trousers.

  • calabasa

    Source? From what I’ve read, the suicide rate doesn’t change much post-transition for dysphoric people (for non-dysphoric people who permanently alter their bodies out of some unrelated confusion, I’d imagine it would go up).

  • Morag999

    “It must be a very confusing world for those who have no gender identity (as claimed), what do you do each morning, check out your genitals to see if you are male or female, because you can’t be sure until then? After all ‘there is no gender identity only physical sexual characteristics'”

    Goodness me. You are a big silly, yes?

    • Melanie

      I check in on my gender identity every morning just to make sure it didn’t change into a male identity while I was asleep. You never know.

      • Wren

        quelle horreur

  • calabasa

    No credible scientists do. Not those who believe in material reality.

    I believe that you feel like you feel like a woman. But again, absent a religious belief, having NEVER BEEN FEMALE, how could you “feel female?”

    You feel that you feel female, that you should have been female. That is completely different.

    “Scientists” who believe in “gender identity” are going along with a fad. There have been many dangerous psychiatric and religious fads that have influenced “science,” and which we have later felt embarrassed by as a culture.

    There is a perfect storm of reasons that this particularly cause is getting championed right now beyond “it’s real and people are figuring that out!” If you wanted to know why GID is getting reified and BIID is not (for just one example), doing some reading into the reasons behind this would be edifying. At least then you would know where you stand and who stands to gain from using you as a pawn.

  • Missy

    I think a lot of women are waking up more than ever to how entitled and psychotic so many males are what with the sexual abuse scandals and just general misygony all over the internet including porn. The upside is that radical feminism is growing more and more everyday as a result. As men continue to show their true colors with their violent backlashes against the progresses made in women’s rights, more and more women will decide that being with men is just not worth the effort, and definitely not the risk.

    • Just Passing Through

      I really hope you are right. I’m glad all these shitty men are getting their comeuppance! It’s about time! To be honest with you, I’m surprised it’s getting as much airtime as it is (the sexual assaults) considering men run just about ALL media that exists.

  • Kiwipally

    This is what Rosenthal has written, LOL (from https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/99/12/4379/2833862 ) which is the full-text of the second citation you linked:

    “Compelling studies have demonstrated that “gender identity”—a person’s inner sense of self as male, female, or occasionally a category other than male or female—is not simply a psychosocial construct, but likely reflects a complex interplay of biological, environmental, and cultural factors.”

    “Although sex of rearing can be assigned at birth, gender identity can only be assumed, and not, in fact, known until an individual achieves a particular level of psychological development and self-awareness.”

    So even your precious endocrinologist doesn’t believe that men can become women. This is not the gotcha you think it is.

  • Kiwipally

    If you’re going to put up peer reviewed papers as your “evidence” maybe you should understand what they say. LOL.

  • calabasa

    OH MY GOD! You are NOT in a same-sex marriage. YOU ARE NOT FEMALE.

    Lesbians find this SOOO homophobic and insulting beyond belief. And no, I don’t mean “straight or ‘queer’ women who identify as (appropriate the identity of) lesbians.”

  • calabasa

    First off: womb transplants: science fiction.

    Secondly: womb transplants: dangerous science fiction.

    Third: womb transplants for males who feel female: disgusting misogyny, and, for those for whom the female body is a sexual fetish, a form of necrophilia.

  • Kiwipally

    You are one sick dude if you think that not having sex deprives a person’s life of any meaning. Having sex is not a human right.

  • Kiwipally

    You can’t turn a man into a woman.

  • Missy

    I’m sorry that happened to you. A gay man thinks he can touch any part on a woman’s body without her consent and it would be all fine just because he’s not sexually attracted to her. Gay men lack the same disrespect for women as straight men, and also like straight men they will violate our boundaries and think they’re entitled to do so.

    • calabasa

      Yup, even though they’re not attracted to us, too many of them still objectify us. They are RAISED that way, and, IMO, that’s a large part of what the trans phenomenon is about, and why there are so many more TiMs than TiFs.

  • Kiwipally

    What you said: “That’s not the case – saying you feel female doesn’t make you female, you actually have to feel it. And vice versa of course – if a trans woman says she is a man, despite feeling female, she is actually female despite what she said.”

    This is word salad, apart from the fact you admit that men lie about their feelings. We feminists know that already.

  • Kiwipally

    Moving the goalposts and avoiding the issue fallacies.

  • Kiwipally

    Most of that piece is on disorders of sexual development (there is also discussion about a woman who is a chimera, which is very rare), which was discussed earlier in this thread, and is irrelevant to transgender.

  • Kiwipally

    So there are no small men and men don’t have hips? WTF?

  • Missy

    What about “cis” men as a group? I have yet to hear about anyone other than straight males instigating actual violent attacks against trans people, yet trans activists will complain about people they refer to as “TERFs” more than they do about cis male violence that causes real suffering and death.

  • Kiwipally

    Woman is not defined by feelings, woman is defined by sex – biology. Just as the oppression of women has, and is, based on biology and assumptions about biology.

    • calabasa

      This cannot be said enough.

  • Kiwipally

    Dude, you don’t produce ova, cannot gestate a fetus, and cannot give birth. You will never be a fertile woman. And if your testes do not exist, you’re now infertile as a man too.

  • FierceMild

    That’s just it though, gender identity is who you are. Not who we are.

  • Kiwipally

    I agree, being trans is not all about feminine behaviour. These days it’s all about narcissistic attention-seeking.

  • Kiwipally

    Begging the question fallacy.

  • calabasa

    This is beside the point! There are plenty of nice men, too! I gather Rachel Dolezal was also pretty nice!

    Don’t you understand why your personality is beside the point, here? If you really cared about women and girls, you would listen to us expressing our fears about letting any man who self-identifies as female into our spaces, and to us expressing that it’s offensive and regressive to have people who are not biological females take positions meant for us and that we have fought for, and that our identity and ability to organize is what’s at stake here. You would lobby for your rights and do activism for your own group that WOULDN’T HURT US.

    Instead you are here fighting about definitions, arguing that up is down and black is white. You don’t seem all that nice to me.

    As a different sort of example, after 19-year-old MtF Lily Madigan hounded 52-year-old Ann Ruzylo out of her position in the Labour Party because of her objections to a non-female-born person applying for the Jo Cox Women in Leadership Programme to become a Women’s Officer (several women in fact called it a “monstrous insult”), this is what two trans allies to women had to say:

    ‘Kristina Harrison, 52, a paramedic who was born male but transitioned 20 years ago, said that if the party really wanted to boost transgender representation, “the spaces and mechanisms really should be taken from men. They shouldn’t be taken from a fellow discriminated group. Yes, we need our own positive discrimination but it shouldn’t be done at the expense of women.”

    She said she would never compete on an all-female shortlist. “Inevitably, it’s going to mean that fewer biological women will have access to these places. In my view we cannot claim equally valid womanhood. We have not suffered discrimination in the same way.

    “I don’t have a female biology. I have benefited from male socialisation which gives me advantages in terms of self-confidence and asserting oneself because of the structural discriminations that exist in society.

    “How can it be right that someone who has no experience of female biology or having been socialised as a girl in a sexist society, has more say on what it is to be discriminated against as a woman, or be more deserving of a place, than someone who was actually born female? That seems incredible to me.”

    Another transgender woman, speaking anonymously for fear of reprisals, said: “I would not compete for a place on the Jo Cox scheme against women who had been socialised as girls. As a trans woman, my formative experiences were different and that needs to be recognised.”’

    They sound like the nice transgender women you are describing. You know, people who are aware that the group to which they wish to belong 1)has zero obligation to them to validate them about anything having to do with their belief system and 2)is a historically oppressed group whose identities and concerns should be taken into account during and after sex role transition, to avoid causing them problems, offending them, and trampling all over their hard-earned rights and private spaces.

  • Kiwipally

    And multiple times as well.

  • Americus91

    Uh you need to take a closer look at Jazz these days now that he’s matured, he has broad shoulders and narrow hips.

  • Coralie Laura Watson

    I’am indeed a trans-women living in a refuge.
    I had to flee my abusive ex and everyone else. I almost lost everyone!!
    Don’t worry If anyone feels that someone like me should carry on being abused by being in a male refuge than be my guest.
    I really feel lucky to be alive sometimes and very great full for the self contained flat i’m in.
    At times i wish i wasn’t a trans-women least i would have my job and the life i had. why oh why did let my self be how i felt.

    Some of us are really nice people and just want to move on with our life’s.
    I respect female toilets there either disabled or gender neutral or me will hold till i get home

    • Meghan Murphy

      No one has said you should be abused in a male refuge. We have said males should not be permitted into female-only shelters. Why does your safety trump ours? Why not advocate for shelters specifically for trans identified males?

  • Alienigena

    Scientists and academics are not infallible. There was a recent story on how a phantom paper was cited a few hundred times even though it never existed and was created by a publisher to demonstrate how to properly cite sources in submissions.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/second-opinion-november-18-2017-1.4408466

    There is also a positive result bias in scientific papers.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2173580811700013

    And there are now a variety of predatory journals with dubious peer review processes.
    http://blogs.nature.com/naturejobs/2017/06/26/sciences-fake-journal-epidemic/

    Scientific findings have to be reproducible to be considered valid. One or two study’s results do not signify much. Hundreds of studies need to be done to validate results. Preferably a group like the Cochrane Collaboration would conduct a meta-analysis of all of the results and issue a report.

    I have work published in peer reviewed journals in the field of biology, I know the process. Quit trying to insinuate that caring about the status of biological females is scientific luddism or socially backward. It is the opposite. Feminists want reality to be acknowledged, not fantasy. They want social policy and medical practice to be based on valid and reproducible evidence.

  • Kiwipally

    Yes you do all these things, but you’re not a woman.

  • FierceMild

    Oh no, not all about feminine behavior. It’s also about domination, theft of resources like women’s sports, and more scope for male violence, as Fallon Fox so aptly shows.

  • Kiwipally

    Sure, and I’ll pick you up some elbow grease too. 🙂

  • Kiwipally

    It are a mystery for the ages. Also, animal husbandry and horticulture, not a thing.

  • FierceMild

    You seem to be really keen on presenting transwomen as exactly the same as:

    women with cancer
    women with fertility issues
    women with mullein genesis
    people with abnormal sex development

    Why, when you so clearly see that trans is an illness, aren’t you just admitting it’s an illness?

    Who has sperm and what is that group called? Who has eggs and what is that group called? How do we know who’s who?

    What is a female?

  • FierceMild

    I’d probably say the same if I was sitting in the same room with you.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Are you stupid? Women who are infertile are still female.

    • Hanakai

      Good one, Murphy!

  • Meghan Murphy

    *applause*

  • Meghan Murphy

    You may or may not have noticed that I’m asking YOU questions on what it is YOU are arguing. I still don’t know, tbh.

  • Hanakai

    Stop with your idiotic manlogic. Infertile women and women who have had hysterectomies are women. They have XX chromosomes.

    Please go hang out with other transsexuals or delusional people instead of vomiting your illogic and misogyny all over this site.

  • Hanakai

    Exactly. It is not helpful to feed into the delusions of mentally ill people. It is better to confront them with reality and help in breaking down their delusions.

    If he was born with a penis, it is correct to refer to him as he, him, his, male. Duh.

  • etoffe

    One example: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/why-should-we-fight-for-marriage-when-its-been-so-bad-for-so-many-women-20170910-gyeej4.html

    Many feminists have taken a similar stance. It’s neither shocking nor outrageous.

    • Omzig Online

      Gay men have taken the exact same stance against marriage, so have many straight people. What’s your point? These people don’t oppose civil rights for LGB folks, they oppose the entire institution of marriage altogether.

      Many LGB (and straight) people consider marriage like smoking cigarettes. Sure, you should have the right to smoke, but is it a healthy decision to make? Is the tobacco industry an institution we should support? This was the question that the author was exploring in that article with regards to marriage.

      Were you really not able to make that distinction when you read the article?

      • etoffe

        My point was that some radical feminists are opposed to same-sex marriage. Full-stop. The commenter said that that was bullshit. And yes, it is because they consider marriage to be a reactionary institution. This was Julia Gillard’s position before she decided that it was politically necessary to support SSM. Of course I made that distinction. The fact remains that some feminists, and some LGB people, have argued against SSM. It is not a trivial distinction or argument.

        • Meghan Murphy

          It is because they consider it a patriarchal institution. I mean, it IS a patriarchal institution.

          • etoffe

            Indeed, a reactionary, patriarchal institution. WE AGREE. Why am I being criticised from all sides merely for pointing out that this is what some feminists think?

          • Meghan Murphy

            Perhaps I misunderstood you. Apologies, if so.

  • Amy

    Afraid of us why? We aren’t the violent ones ever. I call BS that ur afraid of us.

    • thebewilderness

      They are afraid they will go to jail for killing us if we say no to them. A common fear among sociopath males.

  • Hanakai

    We like lesbians! They are women. And we like women!

    Someone born with a penis, scrotum and XY chromosomes is male and will always be male. Surgery and hormones and feelings cannot change that. If you think otherwise, you are illogical and unscientific. And deluded by trans propaganda.

    And yes, so-called transsexuals have high rates of suicide and depression, as is common with the mentally ill who typically have higher rates of mood disorders and suicide. Maybe if the transsexuals would get therapy for their delusions and unhappiness, they would learn to love life and the magnificent miraculous bodies that Nature gave them, instead of going for mutilating surgery and other insanity of the times.

    The trans-mutilating of children is abhorrent and a terrible abuse of children, as 80% of children who express what is called gender dysphoria or unhappiness with their sex grow out of those feelings by mid to late adolescence. But once a child has been surgically mutilated or had its endocrine system mangled by hormones and puberty-blocking chemicals, there is no fixing it, no going back. These children end up as sterile adults, and often they cannot have the surgical changes they want.

    Note that Jazz Jennings, the teenage boy propagandizing that he is a happy trans pretending to be female, cannot have the constructed invagination he wants because the puberty blockers he was put on left him with a shrunken vestigial penis and not enough tissue to construct an artificial vagina. Let’s wait for the lawsuit which will give the boy even more attention.

  • Hanakai

    My take is this. We are losing the last of the world’s wildlife. Lions, tigers, great whales, cheetahs, bonobos, giraffes and many other species are down to the wire, down to endgame. Over 90% of the world’s fisheries are in collapse. Global warming is going to disrupt agriculture to the point that millions, if not billions, will starve. The situation is desperate.

    So, why the f*ck should we be wasting our time and energy arguing with delusional men about their insanity? Transsexuals are so narcissistic that they want women’s space, time, attention. If there was any sane humanity in them, they would be joining to overthrow the patriarchal order that has laid waste to this beautiful planet and her lifeforms.

    But no, the trannies just want to expropriate women’s creations and spaces and get all the attention while the Earth is burning.

  • Hanakai

    Yeah, I get that. I contend with them as well more than is seemly, usually as a matter of shirking work, and with the thought that lurkers need to hear the sane and radfem take on trans-insanity.

  • Hanakai

    Your link does not work. 404 Not found.

    So, why do trannies always bring this up? Scientific ignorance, obviously, and parroting trans propaganda.

    Yes, somewhere between 1 in 30,000 and 1 in 150,000, depending on the country, females have a Y chromosome in addition to their XX chromosomes. This is a Disorder of Sexual Development where cell division has gone wrong. It is a rare anomaly and as such cannot serve as the basis for a general theory of human sexuality.

  • Hanakai

    We are women.

    You are not.

  • Hanakai

    Yes, the transsexual movement has disrespected various native American cultures by attempting to appropriate certain native American concepts as propagandistic justification for trans-insanity.

    Firstly, these white males are clueless about how native cultures viewed certain sexual proclivities. Indeed, it is impossible to understand a culture if one does not understand the culture’s language and none of these trans-propagandists can speak a word of Navajo or Hopi or Cree or Tewa. Theses trans-propagandists are just like white men everywhere —- trying to take for themselves and claim for themselves the wisdom and knowledge of indigenous peoples.

    It seems that the trans-propagandists are able to speak only bullshit.

  • Leo

    Ah, I getcha. : )

    There’s some civil rights activism for mentally ill/neurodivergent people, but I think there needs to be more as well. ME/CFS women, and the rarer male patients, would have a reason to oppose abuses along with us, too. While I too wonder about what the political powers are up to, what the field of psychology is doing is also explained by misogyny, homophobia and disabeism. The trans thing is far from an isolated incident in this field, it’s more just an extreme example of how patients are usually treated. The sheer amount of hatred there is for neurodivergent people is incredible, and prevalent in wider society as well. Personally it’s been worse even than anything I’ve experienced as a woman, though of course that’s also just down to luck/bad luck which axes of oppression happens to have more impact on an individual level, and there’s a lot of overlap between being seen as a crazy person, and as a crazy woman.

    • calabasa

      Oh, exactly. The narrative of the “crazy woman” is used to discredit us. Who WOULDN’T be crazy after a lifetime of abuse? I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder after I had a “manic” reaction when given an SSRI after a rape in college. However, my behavior–drugs, drinking, unprotected sex with numerous partners–is not atypical of someone suffering from PSTD. I have NEVER had a “manic” or “mixed manic” episode that was not related to trying to process abuse in some way (bipolar disorder is a common catchall). I’m sure if I’d seen more pscyhiatrists/psychologists I would have been diagnosed with BPD. Having read up on it, I believe I have C-PTSD stemming from a childhood illness that set me up for victimization (both because of what happened and because of family dynamics), and I’ve experienced SO MUCH abuse since–rape and domestic violence; also, I suffered from persistent dissociation throughout my early twenties, was relationship-avoidant (after an early, physically and emotionally abusive, extremely traumatic relationship, which followed an instance of grooming and violent rape, not to mention all the childhood molestation and pernicious harassment), and have not tried to kill myself and am not self-harming; I also tend to attract rapists and abusers when not trying, and quite clearly fit the criteria for C-PTSD. This is actually a problem, not only because C-PTSD is a debilitating disorder which often accompanies depression and can, in new instances of PTSD, include panic disorder/anxiety attacks, but because my regimen for care is clearly different depending on whether I have bipolar disorder AND C-PTSD, or just C-PTSD and depression (which is what I believe). Even with the BEST of care it’s hard to find a good psychiatrist who will take a full history (including my history of childhood severe thyroid disorder and current low-level PCOS) and then make an accurate diagnosis; this is rendered at least twice as hard by dint of the fact that I am on Medicaid, which is unsurprising considering my circumstances (I am actually quite lucky to be AWARE considering my circumstances). I am going to see a psychiatrist for an evaluation Thursday to ask about my sudden-onset agoraphobia following abuse, rape, and stalking this and last year, and to request a low dose of lithium for its neuroprotective, neurogenerating, anti-anxiety and mood stabilizing effects (medical tests permitting), and a low dose of anti-depressants (I think my brain is just temporarily fried after a year of intense PTSD, after what happened; PTSD shrinks parts of the brain, and post-PTSD depression is common), so I can function. I would like, in the future, to regulate my neurochemistry with diet and exercise, but right now I need help to function. Believe ME when I say most doctors don’t believe me, and I am all on board for a social movement that understands neurodivergence, whatever its cause. The neurochemical imbalances that result from the trials of the patriarchy are no joke.

      • Wren

        If you have PTSD (which is sounds like you do) be very careful about Wellbutrin/buproprion. I had a SEVERE and EXTREMELY dangerous reaction to this drug but thankfully was aware enough to make the connection to the change in medication after a couple of months, but they were REALLY long months. Anyway, afterwords I found out many other PTSD sufferers had the same reaction. Whenever you start a new med, find someone you’re close to who you can check in with everyday, at least a text or a couple words so they can tell you if they’ve noticed any changes for the worse.

        Also, it took me a nearly two years to ween myself off clonazepam. Those things turned me into their bitch.

        • calabasa

          I definitely do…I was diagnosed last year. Severe symptoms (nightmares, flashbacks, panic attacks, constant crying spells, social withdrawal), worse than what I’ve experienced before from trauma, and I’ve been through a lot. It all seems to have ended in agoraphobia and depression, which is lovely. I had shitty psychiatrists and went cold turkey off of everything (clonazepam REALLY helped me at first, as did prazosin for nightmares; the p-docs slowly titrated me down to 1 milligram at bedtime–from 5, which was already a low dose– without even TELLING me, which was sneaky, and then cut it out altogether and tried replacing it with 1,200 milligrams of gapabentin! Jeebus! The pharmacist luckily took one look at me and was like, what are YOU taking this for? And I told him “anxiety,” and he told me it was WAY too high a dose and to try 600; just 600 made me feel like I was whacked on the head with a baseball bat and then woke up in a daze with a throbbing headache). The going cold turkey off of everything probably didn’t help me.

          I’ve tried various depression drugs in the past at various times, and some have helped and some haven’t (including Wellbutrin, which once really helped and once I had a HORRIBLE reaction to, although it could have been the sudden, unnecessary high dose which did it). Thanks for the heads up about Wellbutrin and PTSD.

          I’m thinking of low-dose lithium because I have tried lithium before (I had a minor breakdown in grad school, the first time I wrote about anything that had happened to me, for a nonfiction seminar); it REALLY helped, immediately. I think a lower dose would avoid dampening side effects, as well as all the other unpleasant physical side effects, and it does have a neuroregenerative effect, which is a bonus. Lithium is the ONLY drug I have ever taken that completely regulated my sleep, killed my desire to drink, and on which I entirely abstained from alcohol with no problem. It works for anxiety and would be great to take instead of benzodiazepines. I have taken Prozac before and wouldn’t mind trying it again at a low dose, either (it has once really helped me and once had rather mixed results).

          I’d like, in future, to heal my body and take *nothing,* but I’m going to be out of money and out on the street soon. I need something to help me function so I can work and pull myself together enough to get better for a while, but I don’t see it as a long-term solution. I feel like what I went through was in some way necessary, but I need something right now to “unstick me,” and help me push forward with my life–save money and go do other stuff–and if this will help it will be a blessing.

          Thanks for the warning, Wren. <3

          • Kiwipally

            Take care, sister.

  • calabasa

    I agree. I mean, I know that there are some who don’t want biological males in our spaces or privy to our scholarships based on principle, but I honestly believe that without the clout and loud voices of the autogynephiles, this wouldn’t be happening, and we probably wouldn’t really care about the few dysphoric/dysmorphic males who think they’re women very much, because they wouldn’t be telling us biology isn’t real, reifying “gender identity” and therefore gender (the old “transsexual” is quite distinct from the new “transgender,” and quite a few of them are gender critical), telling us not to talk about biological women’s problems, renaming us “cis,” calling us “bigots” for hurting their feelings, trying to pass laws about “misgendering,” no-platforming feminists for gender critical beliefs, or trying to allow anyone who says they “feel female” into women’s spaces. It wouldn’t be happening.

    These “true trans” are being thrown under the bus too, and having their movement destroyed from the inside out–there’s only so long people will stand for this bullshit of destroying reality, destroying women’s rights, and endangering women and children–and then they will be under the same cloud of suspicion. If anything, they need to WAKE UP AND STAND UP to the bullies in their movement or they’re sunk, too, and all their progress will be lost when this whole thing blows sky high (to mix elements and war metaphors).

  • Leo

    ‘It’s difficult to imagine anyone who is merely transgender can approach the level of “mental illness’
    Excusez moi? What exactly do you think us mentally ill people are like? Do you know anything about that?

    I’ve known trans-identified people.

  • calabasa

    The fact that you think it goes like this: men; women; gay people; then trans people, REALLY speaks volumes.

    You have NO IDEA what the female experience is, either female socialization or the adult female existence which follows that. NONE.

  • calabasa

    It’s amazing how many people don’t get this with regard to the David Reimer case, either (my father included). Sex is sex.

    I think that what they are saying is that “if gender identity doesn’t exist, why was David Reimer unhappy as a girl?” How did he know he was not the sex he was supposed to be?

    This is presuming there are NOT others factors to sex besides genitalia/hormones (produced by the gonads, in the case of males). As soon as anyone says this, they say “GOTCHA! THERE IS LADY BRAIN AND MAN BRAIN!”

    And they continue, “TRANS IS LADY BRAIN IN AMAB BODY AND MAN BRAIN IN AFAB BODY!” An argument based solely around a (faulty) belief in brain biology, while denying genital biology entirely (they will also claim it has to do with hormones in utero).

    They are leaving out not only the NUMEROUS OTHER REASONS people are suddenly claiming to be trans–either sexual fetishes (always around), or sexual fetishes combined with personality disorders (always around but never given this level of validation), or sexual abuse and body dysmorphia/rejection of sex based on this (also always around, suddenly, in light of the social contagion and the porn culture, much more prevent in female to males), or internalization of homophobia (always around, suddenly given validation: “you are not just a gender non-conforming gay person, YOU ARE THE OTHER SEX!”)

    They are also not realizing the real meaning of brain studies regarding sex. There ARE some biological differences. Men have, on average, larger brain sizes due to body size; they have more activity in the amygdala, which promotes aggression. There is on average more connection in women between the right and left hemispheres of the brain, promoting language skills and the ability to find connections in the seemingly disparate. HOWEVER, these factors vary more AMONG individuals of the same sex than BETWEEN individuals of different sexes, so there is no “magic lady brain” (or man brain, for that matter)! Furthermore, even if there WERE brain sexes, how could ONE sex’s brain end up IN THE OTHER’S BODY, unless they are claiming they are “brain intersex?” That is a rare biological mutation? (Oh, lordy). Is that really the go-to explanation when there are SO MANY OTHERS and SO MANY OTHER DISORDERS we do not extrapolate such conveniently sexist notions from?

    It is most likely that David Reimer, who still was, in fact, male, felt different/realized from how people treated him, and after he found out the knowledge of it DROVE HIM TO HIS DEATH. It is FAR MORE LIKELY social factors were at play here.

    Even if we were to acknowledge (which we are in no scientific position to) that “intersexed brains” exist *to the point that people with “highly female brains in male bodies” and “highly male brains in female bodies” exist, HOW FEW PEOPLE WOULD BE AFFECTED WITH THIS CONDITION? How many of the other “trans people” are “trans” for ENTIRELY DIFFERENT REASONS, many falling prey to social contagion and many PREYING ON social contagion?

    Also, why WOULDN’T no longer having gender roles work for them? And if it didn’t–if we got rid of gender, a system hurting EVERYBODY–would anyone care if a tiny minority had body dysmorphia and wanted to change how their bodies looked to match feeling more “male” or “female?” NO! This is why a lot of old-school transsexuals are, in fact, gender critical, as the gender/sex twain does not necessarily meet. There is NOTHING IN THE EXISTENCE OF DYSMORPHIA/DYSPHORIA, if it is, as they claim, BIOLOGICALLY BASED, that predicates the existence of the social construct of GENDER or, if in extremes of men and women it does exist, THE NEED FOR ITS REIFICATION, ESPECIALLY WHEN THAT IS OBVIOUSLY HARMFUL TO HUMANS AS A SPECIES, ESPECIALLY WOMEN.

    Is this so hard to understand?!!!

    TL;DR: MOST PEOPLE’S BRAINS ARE NOT ALL THAT DIFFERENT BASED ON SEX, AND THEREFORE GENDER DOES NOT EXIST FOR MOST PEOPLE, AND FURTHERMORE PERPETUATING IT–AS WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE BY REINFORCING ANY SLIGHT DIFFERENCES THERE ARE TO CREATE A HORRIBLE AND HIERARCHICAL IMBALANCE–HAS TERRIBLY HARMED WOMEN, AND INDEED HARMED MEN, AND NEARLY DESTROYED THE WORLD. STOP PUSHING THIS PROPAGANDA ON US YOU ASSHOLES.

    /endrant

  • meh

    Are you mentally ill or just very, very stupid Oh, you’re a troll. Got it. Fuck off now.

  • calabasa

    I would also like to add, Lisa M, that yes, statistically speaking, MtF people who identify as “lesbian” are more likely than the average male population to commit sexual crimes, usually against girls and women. This is well-known, if uncomfortable. The fact that fetishists–some of them dangerous, because of the number of cross-paraphilias–have infiltrated the trans movement may be blasphemy for most to name, but not for us who are nonbelievers in your religion.

    Of course they don’t make up a large population of male rapists, as they make up a small population in general (still no reason to let them into our vulnerable spaces). Their crimes post-“transition”–even if that transition is literally JUST SAYING “I am female”–are recorded as women’s crimes against other women, to boot.

    The fact that this population is small compared to what you call “cis” male rapists (though arguably more depraved, trying to gain access to the most vulnerable of the population) means that what we most object to is the erasure of our identity, our (already-weak because of female socialization to center males) class consciousness, and our ability to politically organize; trans activists–many of them the same kind of abusive males who seek to infiltrate vulnerable female spaces to gain access to potential victims, EVEN IF THEIR ABUSE IS LIMITED TO THE VERBAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL–engage in many of the same behaviors as their rapist brethren.

    Suck on that.

  • meh

    Men aren’t women and can never become women. But you already know that.. Fuck off now.

  • calabasa

    I would like to add one more thing:

    Several times you have said “but we/they believe we are women,” so how can you convince of us this, etc.

    No actual female born woman has said or had to say she “believes she is a woman,” so therefore you do not, not really.

    Why, then, continue to pretend to engage so disingenuously? Why not admit you are “female feeling,” gender non-conforming, and woman-aligned, rather than actually female?

    We are not asking you for a lot. We are not asking for a lot at all. We are simply asking to respect our own identity, our rights, our safety, and to take these under consideration and lobby for yourselves as “woman-identifying people” who are not biological females. If you were to do so, we would be happy to fight together alongside you, our honorary sisters, to take down the patriarchy that oppresses us all.

    Surely you can see the danger that allowing ANY MAN WHO SAYS HE FEELS FEMALE into our spaces poses? Not to mention the danger of erasing the reality of biologically, reproduction-based oppression–from whence the “feminine” you embrace (as we are all who are female or feel female indoctrinated into and subjected to under patriarchy)–arises? Our already-limited-by-patriarchy class consciousness is threatened by this erosion, solely because of your desire to belong. Don’t you see how well this suits those who would oppress us, and don’t you see how you are being used, in your genuine desire to belong with us, as women, to this end–to destroy the very group of people to whom you claim allegiance?

  • meh

    Yeah, bizarrio. The only people who were opposing same sex marriage were radical religionists. Feminists and other decent people kept pointing out that dudes in dresses play acting at being women have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with same sex marriage.

    The trannies nearly screwed it up for gay people altogether by conflating their weirdo sexual fetishes with normal, natural gay orientation – which as everyone intelligent knows just means an adult person is attracted to another adult person of the same sex. The religionists seized on that weird muddying of the waters and went hell for leather, pun not intended. Feminists fought hard to get religious freaks to understand that being gay has nothing to do with being a tranny.

    It’s just another way trannies are deliberately harming everyone. As well as assaulting women both in real life and online and trying to strip women of their human rights, they’re confusing people who are stupid (and usually religious) enough to believe that having a sexual fetish about dressing up as a woman, having your penis sliced off and all the other freaky stuff men who wish they were women do has anything at all to do with being homosexual. It’s a damn shame. The LGB community needs to ditch that tranny T double quick time. They’ve let their own human rights issues be mixed up with a bunch of misogynistic dudes in dresses who want to strip woman’s human rights from them, setting back society’s acceptance of homosexuality by decades. It’s a real shame.

    Never mind, the feminists and other decent caring people of Aus passed the postal vote by nearly 62 percent and now the legislation will be brought in before Christmas. Thanks to feminists and other prgoressive thinkers.

  • Meghan Murphy

    A table has four legs but my dog also has four legs — is my table a dog? Pls help. I did not learn about tables and dogs in graduate school.

    • FierceMild

      Wait…each of my cats has four legs. Is that eight legs or two side tables or one and a half dogs?

  • Meghan Murphy

    I do not believe transgender people exist, I believe people who identify as transgender people exist.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yesssssssss….. And?

  • CatherineTGWShark

    “A few little points, trying to inject some logic and dare I say it science, into this.”
    Lol, rallying cry of misogynistic males everywhere. Swooping in to “correct” women, and insert “logic”, and “science”, and “facts”.
    The funniest thing is; they never actually show any logic or science. xD

    Anyway, stop using intersex people as a shield / weapon. Intersex orgs have, time and time again, asked to be left alone and not used as trans activist talking points.

    Also, what’s wrong with you?
    “The ‘concern’ about trans kids is the very heights of hypocrisy when in
    the UK in 2014/2015 400+ intersex kids got non-consensual ‘gender
    normalising’ surgery done on them…as babies and young kids.”
    Yes, radical feminist think that ‘gender normalizing’ surgeries done on intersex children are wrong. We also think that ‘gender reassignment’ surgeries done on supposed “trans kids” are wrong.

    But your point seams to be that ‘gender normalizing’ surgeries done on intersex children are wrong, but ‘gender reassignment’ surgeries done on supposed “trans kids” are wonderful?
    Where’s the logic in that?

    Also funny that you are berating radical feminists about ‘gender normalizing’ surgeries done on intersex children. Aren’t trans activist the one you should take to task? They are the one fighting against bans on “gender” surgeries on children. They are the one fighting to lower the age of when ‘gender reassignment’ surgeries can be done.

  • CatherineTGWShark

    ^This.
    Just to add to 3) Trans activists are also coming up with (*coughcorrective*cough*rape*cough*friend*cough*zonecough*) ‘cotton ceiling’ rhetorics. That are trying to force lesbians into heterosexual sex.

  • CatherineTGWShark

    Let’s actually (instead of going on and on as you did) “just take this one paragraph and tear it apart” shell we?

    “Meghan Murphy wrote…. “he was socialized as a male” – she totally
    ignores the fact that trans women have no choice and are forced to
    socialise as males
    which often leads to withdrawal and social isolation.
    I was so withdrawn as a child I had a really bad stuttering problem
    that continued right into early adulthood because of the awkwardness I
    experienced with socialization being a trans child.”

    Sooooo, you take issues with Meghan Murphy correctly saying that “he was socialized as a male” and as a rebuttal offer that he was “forced to socialise as male”?

    Em, what? It doesn’t matter if he (and all other tw) were “forced” to be socialized as a male; they were still socialized as a male!

    • Wren

      Yeah, as if any of us had ANY choice of how to be socialized. It’s so fucking stupid.

  • CatherineTGWShark

    A man said that people (here, as pretty much anytime men speak of “people”, quite clearly meaning “Men”) who would not say ‘we are like this, but women are like that.’?
    Shocker. /s

    Also the part about people who would not say ‘I am like this, but black people are like that,’ might have been wishfully thinking. Decades after that was written racism is still rampant. So much that policemen can, without fearing any punishment, murder black people.
    Also, are you living under a rock? Do you not now what was chanted not that long ago in Charlottesville? Do you not know about Jewish cemeteries that are being vandalized all the time?
    People who would not say ‘we are like this, but Jews are like that,’ my left foot.

    And I have to ask; what’s your point with posting that quote? And by “substitute[ing] “transgender” for “homosexual” in that paragraph, and that’s where we are in 2017”?
    Are you saying that homophobia (and misogyny and racism and antisemitism) are over and not a problem anymore?
    That in 2017 there’s only transphobia to fight?

    Seriously, how offensive can you get?

  • CatherineTGWShark

    Yes! For example every time I see appropriation and misappropriation of “sworn virgins” (Virgina / Virdžina) I want to scream.
    Reading / watching (I’d link but there’s no sources in English) interviews with remaining Virdžina is heartbreaking.
    They were forced into it by toxic patriarchy. And it’s almost frightening how high level of internalized misogyny and hearted of all other women most of them have.

    It’s definitively not some trans utopia of acceptance.

  • calabasa

    “Personality disorders are incurable” is why I have little hope for males who identify with masculinity and females who identify with femininity, as well as trans who identify with the opposite gender role from that which they were assigned (not sex).

    Obviously, one of these personality disorders is more other-destructive and one is more self-destructive.

    The paradox of the trans male is that he claims to identify with femininity while acting out masculinity. A lovely IED of destructiveness all around.

  • CatherineTGWShark

    Okay, for the sake of the argument, let’s say there’s “biological element underlying gender identity”.
    Do you (‘cos you are the one championing that study) support that “biological element underlying gender identity” being tested for in all people looking to transition?
    Should there be tests looking for “biological element underlying gender identity” before anybody get hormone prescription, name change, and surgeries?
    Should only people who have “biological element underlying gender identity” in according with being trans be accepted as trans? While everybody else who claim that they are trans but don’t have “biological element underlying gender identity” in according with being trans be forbidden from getting hormones and so on?

    If you are so sure about what you are talking about; why shouldn’t tests for “biological element underlying gender identity” be a required pre-transition thing?

    See, I wouldn’t put my faith in that “biological element underlying gender identity” at all. But what about you? End if you wouldn’t either; why not? You were just saying how so sure of it you were.

  • lk

    “If you need shelters do the same thing women had to do; go make your own.”

    This is what I really dont understand: Is there some reason that transidentified women cannot create their own spaces? Why the insistence on entering our spaces?

    “It’s because women have the right to be safe from males (however they “identify”) when they are in shelters.”

    Say it a million times.

    This is one of the things that really does bother me: that vulnerable women who have nowhere else to go must share their space with men in women’s homeless shelters, dv shelters and women’s prisons.

    No matter how much people try to dance around it, there is a reason why we have women’s shelters and men’s shelters, women’s prisons and men’s prisons: because of male violence.

    I shudder everytime I read a story about a violent male prisoner who has suddenly decided he is a woman and is demanding entry into a woman’s prison.

  • lk

    I’ll be honest..The idea of a biological male in a woman’s space makes me uncomfortable. But I totally understand why a feminine man or a man who passes a female would not want to use the men’s restrooms.

    But this movement has really ballooned so far beyond transwomen just wanting to live their lives in peace or just wanting to pee.

    It’s a movement that in reality puts vulnerable women at additional risk for violence by allowing biological men into women’s sports, locker rooms, jails, prisons and shelters.

    It is a movement that encourages healthy women and children to mutilate their bodies and take unncessary hormones.

    It is a movement that encourages lesbians to ignore their attraction to females and date males.

    I’m shocked that a movement that is so disconnected from reality has become so popular.

    • Wren

      I also understand why a feminine man would be afraid to use the men’s bathroom, but that is exactly why the trans lobby should be directing their energy towards challenging men’s violence. But they are not doing this AT ALL. It is all directed at women, who are not committing any violence (other than imaginary acts of violence of “misgendering”, etc.). That is why this movement is really — truly — about misogyny. They don’t want to change men’s behavior; rather, they enjoy brutalizing and threatening women just as much.

  • Hanakai

    A mutant with Klinefelter’s syndrome.

    • Wren

      I was gonna say a dude with a small dick and an even smaller intellect.

  • Hanakai

    And then you spend lots of time trolling feminist sites with your male privilege and bullshit.

    • Kiwipally

      But he’s a Nice Guy(tm)!

  • Meghan Murphy

    The point is that females are the sex who have wombs and are capable of giving birth, dummy.

    “Humans have two hands” is a true statement, despite the fact that some humans only have one hand or none at all.

    The exception does not make the rule. Only women have wombs, wombs are a part of female anatomy. Men have penises, penises are male genitalia. Get it?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Most people do not genuinely believe that ‘transwomen’ are women. And I’m sorry but sometimes men want things they can’t have, and despite the fact they believe that are entitled to, they still can’t have those things.

    I mean, truly, what you are describing/advocating for is male supremacy — the thing where men get to do whatever they want, regardless of what women want/think about that and regardless of the impact on women. I mean, we all know this is what you are advocating already, but I just wanted to make that clear to you.

  • Meghan Murphy

    ugh. men.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Fuck. I am so sorry.

    • Danielle Matheson

      Thank you. It is so disappointing that there is no real change today and men like my grandfather are a dime a dozen. Well, all I can do to honor her is keep fighting the fight with all my sisters!

  • Meghan Murphy

    We just don’t care.

  • Meghan Murphy

    No one has a gender identity. You are just delusional/wish you were female.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You are the one claiming there is such a thing as a ‘male identity,’ so you can answer my question.

  • Meghan Murphy

    How is a trans-identified male not a man? What makes them ‘not a man’?

  • Meghan Murphy

    lol nobody cares. Your group likely has numerous people in it too afraid to disagree with you, of course, which you clearly don’t give a shit about.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yeah, we’re the ‘crazy’ ones. Not the people who pretend they don’t know what ‘male’ and ‘female’ is.

  • Kiwipally

    1/10 for the flounce. Also, begging the question fallacy.

    • Melanie

      I wonder if they flounce because they think it makes them more ladylike? It seems to be a common thing. Come in, make a few comments and then when it all gets too much ‘how dare you!’ and off they melodramatically flounce. it’s very amusing.

      • Kiwipally

        They flounce like MRAs (surprise, surprise). They have exactly the same commenting pattern. Come into a thread, make it all about them, pull in bad statistics and ignore facts, don’t respond to counter arguments and sea lion, then flounce when the womenz don’t bow down to their “superior intellect”.

  • Kiwipally

    Appeal to emotion and appeal to authority fallacies.

  • Omzig Online

    You can blame your male peers for that, sir. Your males peers apparently don’t care enough about your safety to build you a shelter for battered males. Why do you keep insisting that women do all of your labor for you? Tell the other males in your community to have some compassion and build you a shelter already!

  • Kiwipally

    Begging the question fallacy.

  • FierceMild

    Poor Hekate’s missing all the fun. Are you out there, Hekate? I hope you’re not unwell.

  • Alienigena

    You have a degree in psychology? Do you read any history of science? Because male psychiatrists, psychologists and physicians (not to mention the US president) have been calling women crazy for a long time for some very suspect reasons. You just seem like another misogynist male who abuses women because they are women.

    I’d say you should call yourself Trump (we all know he is a ‘real man’ don’t we) and have done with it. Is the next accusation that everyone on this site has a ‘wandering womb’.

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/commentisfree/2016/aug/07/term-crazy-shouldnt-be-thrown-around-lightly-ask-any-woman

  • Kiwipally

    Begging the question fallacy.

  • Wren

    I feel like I need to constantly exercise my dissent from insane ideology, or I may become influenced or complacent. It’s almost like intellectual housekeeping.

  • thebewilderness

    You are telling another lie. Stop.

  • LordofLight

    You know what I haven’t seen in the (as of this writing) 750+ comments? One ounce of empathy for biological women from transactivists, let alone any attempts to address the points raised in the article other than “here, look at this obscure study proving my gender” and variations on a theme of “shut up, feminists.” (Just for kicks, I also checked Meghan’s Twitter and Feminist Current’s Facebook page and, sure enough, there were violent threats, misogyny and lots of name-calling.)

    Men have been violating women since the beginning of time, so it’s only natural that women would be concerned that otherwise male-bodied people — or at least people with penises — may suddenly get the green light to enter their rape crisis shelters. You don’t have to agree, but it’s sickening to see these concerns just dismissed as if they’re nothing. Are they supposed to feel better because some of these dicks will now be “female”? (Female penis, by the way, is the most asinine horseshit I’ve ever heard.) There’s also some considerable chutzpah involved in denigrating the very feminists who built these shelters, and demanding absolute capitulation. Women don’t owe you shit.

    The real irony of some of the non-responses to this article, however, is that they illustrate the reasons women should be raising the issue.

  • thebewilderness

    Everyone in your life and everyone on this thread can see that there is something seriously wrong with you but it has nothing to do with your body.

  • Kiwipally

    You lie, the one group you never mentioned that you were afraid of was men. Given that women can be far-right extremists or religious fundamentalists or radical feminists, if you were so terrified of women then you wouldn’t be using woman-only spaces.

    But then logic and truth are not your strong suits.

  • thebewilderness

    So you admit that you are perfectly aware that you are not a member of the reality based community. That contradicts your claim upthread.

  • Omzig Online

    Me too! I think most of us with BPD have more logic on our worst day than this guy has on his best day, tho. <3

  • Kiwipally

    You lie like a cheap rug: “Biologists now agree that human sexual dimorphism is vague and nuanced, and certainly not a simple binary.”

    So ED doctors order a pregnancy test on every person aged between about 12 and 55, who turns up with abdominal pain, because any person this age can have an ectopic pregnancy?

    So when infertile heterosexual couples get medical intervention, both are tested for ovulation-related disorders and both have their sperm counts and morbidity tested? It’s arbitrary which one contributes the ovum? It’s arbitrary which one has the zygote implanted?

    When a child is born, it’s arbitrary which one breastfeeds?

    All people can get prostate cancer? All people can get cervical cancer?

    Fuck off you git.

  • Kiwipally

    Shifting the goalposts fallacy. For those reading along at home, notice how he says one thing. Then, when that is countered, he says something different. He calls it “nuance”, logic calls it shifting the goalposts.

  • Kiwipally

    “Puberty blockers” don’t turn a boy into a girl.

  • Wren

    “too much emotions” is the new dude chant??
    That’s hysterical. These are the same people who sit on the couch weeping and gnashing their teeth when they have a fucking head cold.

  • Safa

    I really don’t understand where all of this transgender bullshit is coming from. It seems as though men have completely lost their minds. Power certainly does corrupt and these lawmakers and their fem-men constituents are becoming more delusional everyday. Men are rarely forthcoming with their reasons behind anything they do, but they must provide some sort of explanation for this current fuckery. It is possible that this is all a move to legitimize male sexual fantasy of watching females urinate, defecate and change soiled tampons. One would think that with the wide variety and accessibility of porn and prostitution, men would have an abundance of opportunities to view female genitalia. Maybe the transgender phenomena has taken off because females are opting out of the feminine gender script and these fellows are filling the vacuum.

    Whatever the reason, there are several issues facing humanity that are more important than the worldwide effort to further enable male orgasms. Our fragile profit-driven economies are teetering on the brink of collapse as they require infinite growth on a finite planet. The earth is reaching its carrying capacity for the human species. Global patriarchal cultures have contributed to this by constructing human systems which enslave females and force them to become sperm receptacles. Almost all of the upheaval in various countries can be attributed to population overshoot and resource plundering. Humanity is desperate to keep our industrialized civilization going. When nations are resorting to petroleum extraction through hydraulic fracking, tar sands and deep-water drilling, industrial society and current population levels are unsustainable.

    The main tenets of patriarchy are feeding males and facilitating their orgasms. Someone once said “not all men have power, but everyone in power is male.” They control everything–the military, resource distribution and human reproduction. Women can do nothing to stop this. We are stalled in a state of inaction because we are birthing babies, caring and catering to males and trying to earn money in de-humanizing employment. Most women do not even value each other and some prefer the isolated familial cages of domestic slavery.

    I don’t think patriarchal systems have always been so widespread. Humans have existed in their current evolutionary form for about 200,000 years. We are fragile creatures. We do not have sharp claws or teeth. We do not run or swim very fast when compared to other animals. Our survival as a species has been attributed to our ability to cooperate within social groups. But right now, no one is cooperating. Men only work together to destroy and women have long since abandoned our mother/daughter bonds. We don’t have to look far to see where these bonds still exist within other mammalian societies. Female elephants still follow the matriarch to sources of food and water. Female chimps and bonobos congregate together on the forrest floor with their young. I think we can trace the beginnings of this culture of death and exploitation called patriarchy back to the origins of monotheism around 5,000 years ago.

    Allowing males even more access to gazing upon, raping and killing females is not going to move humanity forward. We are going backwards and I think we have passed the point of no return. Oh, and to all of those fem-men in the US maybe you need to stop trying to get into women’s spaces and put your energies toward forcing red-state medicaid programs to pay for transgender medical needs and enact laws to prevent LGBT discrimination.

  • Omzig Online

    Oh hey, be sure to cite lots of research from the Endocrine Society to your social media groups, ok? I hear the E.S. is pretty excited to see how thirstily you’ve accepted their whole “Womanhood in a Pill” scheme!

    Here’s a list of the donors that contribute to the Endocrine Society, by the way. Thought you might like to peruse this list and note the number of pharmaceutical companies that appear on it. You know, in case you become curious as to why the Endocrine Society seems so eager to recommend synthetic hormones to you.

    https://www.endocrine.org/corporate-relations/corporate-liaison-board/leadership-donors

  • Wren

    OMFG JUST FUCKING STOP.
    Not one woman on here or in my orbit has any interest in being fucking “binary” and that doesn’t make us “trans”
    THAT MAKES US FULLY HUMAN INDIVIDUALS.

    Seriously, just fuck off. You’re an insane troll.

  • Kiwipally

    Shifting the goalposts fallacy.

  • Kiwipally

    Shifting the goalposts.

  • Wren

    At some point in the near future, your moment will be gone. People will get tired of your lies, and the lawsuits will start. You are advocating for the mutilation of children, and perverting their sense of true individuality and bodily integrity, and even Jesus won’t forgive this:

    “If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a large millstone were hung around his neck and he were drowned at the bottom of the sea.”
    Mathew 18:6

  • Kiwipally

    He doesn’t care.

  • Danielle Matheson

    A uterus is not the only female sex organ and you know that. Being female is a whole biological reality that males, which trans identifying men are, have NO CONCEPT OF! How could they? How? All they can identify with is what outside world deems what a “woman” is. Caricatures, sex stereotypes. There is nothing wrong with gender non conformity. But gender vending isn’t a sex change. It’s a biological impossibility. No amount of synthetic hormones or plastic surgery makes you the opposite sex.

  • Danielle Matheson

    A trans identified male is still male. Having a penis will not ever make you female. Inverted penises are not vaginas. (Yes, I went to college too and watched what happens in sex change operations). It’s a surgical wound. It’s nothing remotely like a vagina. Grow up. Get your head out of your ass. Your PhD means nothing if you have no moral character and are filled with delusions.

  • catlogic

    That’s precisely what they are. Trancels is another term for them, or TIMRAs, and it’s often enough a progression for them.

  • Danielle Matheson

    Loooooool

  • catlogic

    Functioning or not doesn’t change that women are adult humans of the egg-producing and gestating class. Menopause does not make us no longer women. We are female, always have been, always will be, because however hard you fap over your fantasies, you and your autogynephile mates can never be.

  • catlogic

    So you claim to have a disorder of sexual development. Whoop-de-do, you’re still a man.

  • lk

    No, I didn’t miss the point.

    You are claiming a man can have a female identity and that because he feels like a woman, that he is one. I’m asking what is this female identity, what is this female feeling?

  • Meghan Murphy

    “The same brain as a woman”?? What on earth does that mean?!

  • Meghan Murphy

    1) Trans identified people are not intersex
    2) What is a woman?
    3) What is a man?

  • Meghan Murphy

    What planet do you live on? The only people who are being consistently abusive in this debate are transactivists. Feminists are making arguments while transactivists are making violent threats.

    • Wakame

      I hope you will aknowledge that I have made no such threats, and have been making arguments at every opportunity, which also trying to support those arguments with science.

      • Meghan Murphy

        This isn’t all about you, Wakame. Please don’t #notallmen this thread.

      • hellkell

        Oh, like saying the penis is just an enlarged clitoris? GTFO with your “science.”

      • elle-laments

        Oh dear, I’m all out of cookies.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Hmm… It seems you don’t know what feminism is, so let’s start with that. Feminism is a movement aimed at liberating females from male supremacy. It is a movement by and for women — those born into the subordinate class under patriarchy (females).

    We, as an oppressed class of people, have the right to organize without our oppressors (males).

    Next: intersectionality is about understanding the way women face varying forms of oppression, as well as sexism/misogyny, based on race and class. It has nothing to do with including or centering men in our movement. Stop manipulating the arguments WOMEN use to discuss their oppression in order to center men. It’s gross.

    • Wakame

      “Stop manipulating the arguments WOMEN use to discuss their oppression in order to center men.”

      We would only be doing that if we believed trans women to be men. But we don’t. We are actually making the same arguments you make, we just have a slightly wider definition of “woman”.

      • Meghan Murphy

        And what is your definition of women, pray tell?

      • Zuzanna Smith

        Part of male oppression is males like you reinterpreting the definition of woman, bro. You have no right sir.

  • Kiwipally

    Shifting the goalpost fallacy. The regret rate is irrelevant, it is not possible to turn a man into a woman.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “The ‘we’ you identified are women who are not identified as transgender…”

    Nope. The “we” I identified are females. “They” = males.

  • FierceMild

    Telling males to stay out of the restrooms, locker rooms, and shelters put in place for women to use because men will rape and assault us given the slightest opportunity isn’t abuse. Only a solipsistic man could possibly believe it to be. You are tiresome and narcissistic.

  • FierceMild

    Is it Ms. Murphy or doctors putting you in a box you don’t like?

    You know who puts women in boxes we don’t like? Men like you.

  • FierceMild

    Maybe you men should just stop beating and raping then you wouldn’t need to try to break in to the spaces women created for our own safety in order to hide from your fellow men. I have an idea, why don’t you go tell other men to stop beating and raping? It might be more useful then yelling at women.

  • FierceMild

    Citation, oh lord of sciencing.

  • FierceMild

    That’s right because some dogs are Pekingese and some are poodles and, like, how could anyone even judge their relative dogness. #notalldogs

  • Meghan Murphy

    I can’t find stats for 2017, but in Canada five trans identified people were murdered between 2008-2016. http://transrespect.org/en/map/trans-murder-monitoring/

  • Kiwipally

    At this point, I am wondering how they define “human”.

  • Rich Garcia

    @nichimeichan:disqus You mean HE, right? I’m sorry, but I’m awfully weary and skeptical of people, especially women, who use the language of the Trans Cult and refer to these men with female pronouns. And I say this in good faith as a man who hates this mind-altering, misogynistic bullshit.

  • Omzig Online

    What I think is the saddest part is that I’ve had DSD (“Intersex”) patients, and they are never as pushy, abusive, and entitled as the trans cult. They really just try to keep to themselves and quietly exist without announcing to the world that they have slightly abnormal genitals.

    What’s worse, a lot of DSD folks are extremely put-off and offended by the notion of their biological sex being somewhere on a “spectrum.” Biology may be a complex topic, but to claim that a man with a micro penis due to AIS isnt truly a man, or to say that he falls short of full manhood, or to say that he is somewhat female, is incredibly insulting to him. Likewise, saying that a women with mullerian agenesis somehow falls short of being 100% woman is incredibly cruel. Can you imagine how hurtful it might be for a woman to hear that she’s not fully female, that she exists somewhere on a fucking “spectrum” just because her uterus isn’t fully formed?!

    That’s why I bristle when the trans cult brings up DSD folks, as they inevitably always do. Not only do they completely misunderstand Intersex conditions, but they manage to insult a whole group of innocent people while they’re at it. The trans cult doesn’t care, though. Their relationship to the Intersex community has always been a parasitic one.

    Just thought I’d throw in the perspective that I’ve gained through working with DSD patients, since their voices are always conspicuously absent from these kinds of conversations.

  • Just Passing Through

    LOL, yep!

  • Omzig Online

    I don’t hate anything except elevator music, dude.

    But I have to say, the self-piteous straw man arguments are getting pretty old.

    This article identifies females as a sovereign group of people with firm boundaries that must be respected. If you are not female, you can be as sad and despondent about that as you like, but do please respect our boundaries.

  • Melanie

    Even if there was zero evidence that transwomen endanger women in shelters or other female specific places transwomen still shouldn’t be there. These are places where women and children who have been traumatized by males reside. They’re places of safety and support where they can begin to get their lives back together and heal. Males shouldn’t be there interrupting that process, no matter how innocent their intentions and regardless of how they identify. Women also deserve basic privacy and dignity. End of story. Trans activists should start working to build their own shelters and services. You would think transwomen would want more specialized services given that they apparently suffer so much more oppression and violence than women.

  • Omzig Online
  • etoffe

    I’m sorry, but I’ve never said anything of the sort. The comment that Kiwipally was referring to represents the sum total of my contribution to this thread. Indeed I have never commented on transgender issues anywhere online. Perhaps you need to check your reading comprehension.

  • etoffe

    That does not represent the entire universe of radical feminist thought.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Radical feminists are critical of the institution of marriage. That is not the same as being opposed to lesbians having the same rights as heterosexual women. The arguments radical feminists are making about marriage are absolutely the opposite of the arguments the religious right make. What a completely ignorant comparison.

  • Meghan Murphy

    No no. I didn’t ask you about ‘gender identity.’ ‘Male’ and ‘female’ = sex, not gender.

  • Meghan Murphy

    There is no such thing as a ‘male brain’ or a ‘female brain’.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Trans and intersex are not the same thing. “Transwomen” are males who wish they were female or who have a fetish (autogynephilia).

  • Meghan Murphy

    You’re not a woman. Also, I don’t believe you actually don’t understand that you were born male. You’re going to have to let this one go.

  • Meghan Murphy

    There are plenty of women in the radical feminist community who have experienced what you might label ‘gender dysphoria’. This is a manipulative question, though, because you are demanding we validate your ideology in our responses. Try a different, more honest question.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Then what did you transition from?

    • M. Zoidberg

      Zing!

  • Meghan Murphy

    Dude. Male is not gender, it is sex.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Do you also argue against people who say that humans are bipeds?

  • la scapigliata

    You and your ilk are fetishists and you just demonstrated why. Fetishism is a condition in which a person, 99% + men, are unable to view and accept a woman as a whole being so they latch on/fixate on her parts – legs, breasts, in your case wombs etc. This outlook is used to dehumanise and reduce women to “objects” of your desire, parts to fuck or be. This is your idea of what “being a woman” is – it’s being/performing/posessing a part of a woman that most excites you. Also, fetishists can fixate on external objects. Usually fetishism is used in context of inability to get aroused and orgasm without being allowed to openly fixate on the part that is the fetish, be it legs, long hair, suspenders and fuck-me lingerie, and sometimes it can be simply shoes or skirts, scarves etc. But in heterosexual trans identified men’s case, apart from sexual purposes, the specific part is the only thing able to hold your interest.

    So your tendency to define “woman” by including or excluding PARTS of actual women – wombs, breasts, make up, costume – depending on whether these parts arouse your interest, validate your agenda, or otherwise help you achieve these “intellectual” orgasms here, is doing nothing more than betraying your fetishistic mind. Your illogic doesn’t “prove you are a woman” or that some actual woman isn’t a woman, it’s just mental masturbation, and masturbation and arousal at a thought of embodying a “woman” costume is the very driving force behind trans activism and identity ideology.

    • Morag999

      ‘So your tendency to define “woman” by including or excluding PARTS of actual women – wombs, breasts, make up, costume – depending on whether these parts arouse your interest, validate your agenda, or otherwise help you achieve these “intellectual” orgasms here, is doing nothing more than betraying your fetishistic mind. Your illogic doesn’t “prove you are a woman” or that some actual woman isn’t a woman, it’s just mental masturbation, and masturbation and arousal at a thought of embodying a “woman” costume is the very driving force behind trans activism and identity ideology.’

      Yes, yes. You are right. This is brilliant.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I’m just gonna start sending these comments to the spam folder if you continue not to answer in good faith. For the last time, ‘male’ and ‘female’ = sex, not gender. They are not identities. Beyond that, you still haven’t defined ‘man’ and ‘woman.’ Your definition cannot be tautological. Stop wasting everyone’s time, please.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Sorry! I must have mixed your comments up with someone else’s.

  • Rich Garcia

    What about the affluent males who don’t lose their jobs, their homes, or their pensions, and end up alienating their wives and children because of their life decision to play dress-up and convince the idiot masses that they are another type of “woman”?

    That’s who I am talking about. The men who flaunt this lifestyle (for the most part) are typically white, wealthy, and very privileged. The exemptions who live in poverty are usually black or Latino, and many of them end up prostituted alongside biological females.

  • Kiwipally

    Penile agenesis is incredibly rare, this link (http://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/penile-agenesis-and-testicular-agenesis ) says the incidence is 1 in 30 million births (of male babies, obviously).

    Therefore the implication that “a lot of men” have penile agenesis is demonstrably a lie. What a surprise, you’ve lied again.

  • Kiwipally

    Liar liar pants on fire.

    First you said: “You can use this to your advantage. Purchase a packer like trans men use, and next time you go out, put it in your pants and make sure the bugle shows through your clothes. People will then assume you are a trans woman and you will be much safer.”

    Now you say: “You have missed the subtext. I am merely highlighting the fact that you know you would be in more danger in public if people though you were trans.”

    These two comments contradict each other.

    But given you are a lying liar who lies, I’m not surprised about your inability to keep your story straight. Most liars can’t.

  • Hanakai

    No doubt because employers do not want to hire insane people who are delusional and out of touch with reality. Further, transsexual men pretending to be female have a very high rate of criminality generally and as sex offenders particularly, and these are not the sort of folks an employer wants to hire.

    If transsexuals would, instead of seeking surgical mutilation and to twist reality to fit their delusional system, get therapy to put their delusions to rest and learn to love themselves and their wonderful bodies as they are, then they would get hired on the same basis as normal people.

    • Elie Challita

      > transsexual men pretending to be female have a very high rate of criminality generally and as sex offenders particularly, and these are not the sort of folks an employer wants to hire.

      Not getting into your other points, but you have that one backwards: MTF people have a higher rate of criminality because they are often denied gainful employment, not the other way around. Often time the only “job” available will be prostitution or some other kind of sex-work because few companies want to deal with the stigma of, say, a transgender cashier.

      • Omzig Online

        If that were true, then impoverished females would commit violent crimes at the same rates as impoverished trans-identified males, but they don’t. Males, whether they wear lipstick or not, continue to commit the staggering majority of violence.

        You assume that none of us have worked with trans-identified people, but we have.

        Most of us know from personal experience that their level of narcissism and deluded thought processes make them incompatible with most work environments. Many trans-identified people have so many mental health co-morbidities that they are simply poor candidates for jobs.

        This should qualify them for disability due to mental illness, but the trans cult has applied immense pressure onto the psychiatric community to convince them that they’re not mentally ill, and they will soon lose these disability benefits. Since “stigma” doesn’t count as a disability, they will be both unemployable and unable to get treatment.

        The trans cult really shot themselves in the foot when they did that.

        • Melanie

          Transgender people seem to shoot themselves in the foot quite a bit. They can’t even name the leading cause of violence against them because it’s apparently too hard to define men and women and we mustn’t assume someone’s identity or misgender them, so therefore male violence is unmentionable and unable to be addressed. Then there’s all the overreaching and demanding other people give up their rights so that they can have theirs when there are perfectly reasonable and workable alternatives that could ensure everyone’s rights. They’re often their own worst enemies.

  • Kiwipally

    It’s also a complete derail.

  • Kiwipally

    Ad hominem fallacy.

  • Kiwipally

    They are genetically male, but because they have a disorder of sexual development they are not trans. FFS, this isn’t hard to understand.

    Your comment about Greer is ad hominem.

  • Meghan Murphy

    lol

  • Meghan Murphy

    Cooooool!

  • Kiwipally

    Trans-identified males are not socialised as females. For a prime example of this, see Jazz Jennings. His sister is being treated utterly differently.

    Trans-identified boys stamp their feet and demand access to girls’s spaces, which they are given. The rights of girls to be separate from boys is ignored. This is not the same socialisation.

    Trans-identified boys are feted as brave and strong. Girls who say they are brave and strong now run the risk of being told they are trans. This is not the same socialisation.

    There are many other examples, these are the most public. You are lying. Again.

    • Danielle Matheson

      And speaking of Jazz Jennings, he said if he wants a baby one day, he’ll just use his sister’s uterus. Like it’s his to borrow.

  • Mmmeee

    Scared of speedy big wood spiders… Bbbrrr….

  • Kiwipally

    I know, now he uses sex instead of gender. Note the wriggling around use of “the opposite sex to the one you appeared to be”. He can’t even use the word sex without trying to quality it.

  • Kiwipally

    I concur, he’s tiresome.

  • Kiwipally

    Please tell me you have another cat called Sherlock.

  • Melanie

    But you said gender identity has a biological foundation. So you’re the one who thinks biology is destiny.

  • Melanie

    What are the male and female characteristics of brains?

  • catlogic

    You’re a man and you have some men in some governments pandering to you. Still doesn’t mean most people are fooled.

    • M. Zoidberg

      Not to mention Big Pharma backing the trans agenda — and why wouldn’t they? Money, money, money from so many dilusional rubes!!!

      A fool and his money are soon parted.

      • Wakame

        Hormones are cheap, psychotherapy is expensive. If you prevent trans people getting treatment, you can make a lot more money from giving them ongoing psychological care.

        • Kiwipally

          You do realise that the pharmacological companies and the psychologists/psychiatrists are completely different, and that if the former are getting the money then the latter aren’t?

          That psychological treatment is time-limited and hormones are not, so your cost “comparison” is comparing apples and oranges to give the cost outcome you want?

          Another lie from you!

  • JingFei

    Which scientists? Where? Since intersex conditions are biological, I sincerely doubt any science or medical professional would suddenly group Trans status, which is still considered on the borderline of psychological and something nebulous- in the same category. Intersex conditions are well known, well-documented, biological variations that can be proven without a doubt, down to the cell.
    And “biological essentialist”..what do you even mean by that? Biology absolutely plays a part in one’s destiny, for example, in my birth country female physiology is the reason countless fetuses have been aborted , and why countless girl babies were/are slain or abandon. They cannot identify their way out of that.
    In western countries, there is more freedom to control one’s destiny, but biology will play a role whether you like it or not. Familial traits or ailments are past down through genes. Have a family history of heart disease? Than you may think twice about being a smoker.
    It all plays a role. No wishing, or fantasizing will make a difference. How we can try to control our destinies is through choices, working hard, opportunity, attitude etc etc.
    But you will never run from your biology. I confess, I’m baffled as to why Trans activists have chose that as one of the hill to die on. This idea they are pushing that “biology is a social construct”. The majority will never get on board with that one.

  • Morag999

    “I wonder if the strategy of willful ignorance and mobbing (especially of you) is a tactic to wear down opponents.”

    Absolutely. They know exactly what they’re doing, like all abusive men.

  • thebewilderness

    You have been JAQing off on this thread for days. No one here is going to validate your mental illness. No one here can validate your mental illness. Your refusal to take no for an answer is a clear indication that you are not safe to be around.

    • Wakame

      “No one here is going to validate your mental illness.”

      Clearly I don’t feel I need any validation here, but I am interested in politely debating the issues.

  • thebewilderness

    Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.
    As usual, when women refuse to submit, men declare that women hate them. I do not know if they are projecting their own hatred on us, or if it is that they cannot tolerate the idea of women being indifferent to them. Generation after generation men insist that women hate them and yet, male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.

  • thebewilderness

    No it does not. You need to take a long hard look at Kimberle Crenshaw’s work.
    There is literally nothing left that trans identified males in their mad drive for dominance have not appropriated to promote their interests. It is astonishing.

  • thebewilderness

    I have thought for some time that the trans identified males are the ultimate MRAs putting on the ultimate male dominance display. The rage they express when women refuse to obey them undermines every claim they make.

  • elle-laments

    An F on a piece of paper has no power to imbue ‘womanhood’ on anyone. Neither does your hopes, dreams, wishes or thoughts. You can think trans women are women until the end of time, it doesn’t make it so. And if you claim to want the same things as feminists you would listen to women and care about our safety. We aren’t arguing with you for shits and giggles. Your utter disdain for our reasonable concerns flags you as a danger.

  • elle-laments

    Taking the bait…
    What would I do? Work bloody hard to use my healthy body as a tool for good in this world. A healthy body is a GIFT. How many schools could you build or wells could you dig or fields could you till or rubble could you search if you weren’t so narcissistically focused on making your body into a perpetual medical experiment?
    What I would NOT do is stomp all over other’s boundaries and scorn them when they protest.

    • Wakame

      Couldn’t you do good in the world and also transition to relive your gender dysphoria? Personally, I do give a percentage of my income to 2 charities by direct debit and I often work for free because I work with vulnerable people. I am also a trans woman.

  • Melanie

    You were a little boy, and you just acknowledged it in order to make the argument that boys get raped too.

    I’m sorry that happened to you. I wonder if it has anything to do with your body dysphoria?

  • Melanie

    Sex segregated facilities are about mitigating risk and ensuring privacy and dignity. It’s true that there are some violent women in the world, but they are rare. The majority of violent criminals are male. This includes men who identify as women. This doesn’t mean all men or men who identify as women are violent, but we still need sex based facilities based on the fact that they’re more likely to be violent. And because we have a right to sex based privacy and dignity.

  • Melanie

    If everyone has a brain with ‘a mixture of male and female characteristics’ then how can they be defined as male and female characteristics in the first place?

    • thebewilderness

      They cannot, of course, and so that is where gender comes in to mansplain why girls like pink and soft things and are good at doing laundry while boys like blue and their penis and are bad at doing laundry.

      • Wakame

        I have said several times in this comments section that although I identified as a girl when I was a child, I wasn’t into pink and girly stuff at all. Nor was my sister incidentally.

    • Wakame

      “If everyone has a brain with ‘a mixture of male and female
      characteristics’ then how can they be defined as male and female
      characteristics in the first place?”

      Because those differences are still statistically more likely to appear in one sex than the other. Imagine there was a brain sex characteristic called Z. If more women than men have Z, then it is a sex characteristic of the brain, even though lots of men also have it.

      This is why neurologists say that there is no such thing as a male or female brain per-se, but given any individual brain, they can look at the overall preponderance of sex characteristics and say with fairly high certainty whether the brain belonged to a male or a female.

      It’s very nuanced. You have to lok at the whole brain, and do some maths.

      • Kiwipally

        Even assuming your comment is true, which it isn’t if “those differences are still statistically more likely to appear in one sex than the other” you’ve said sex isn’t a biological construct, so logically you can’t argue on the basis of sex. But ha, here you are lying so you can make the “argument” you want to be able to make.

        And your “maths” comment is incredibly rude to us here, and shows you don’t understand what you are talking about – what a surprise! In fact, it’s statistics and not maths that relate to this area, and – statistically – it is not possible to identify a “male” brain or a “female” brain based on neurological tests alone. There is so much overlap in the normal ranges that such an outcome is rendered impossible.

        You’ve also contradicted yourself in this part of your comment: you said “neurologists say that there is no such thing as a male or female brain per-se” and then you said “given any individual brain, they can look at the overall preponderance of sex characteristics and say with fairly high certainty whether the brain belonged to a male or a female.”

        Given there is no such thing as a male or female brain, then it is logically not possible to distinguish between male and female brains.

        Your “logic” here is:
        1. There is no such thing as male or female brains
        2. neurologists can look at sex characteristics in the brain
        3. neurologists can determine whether a brain is (from a) male or female

        1 and 3 are in direct conflict.

  • Cassandra

    Science has shown no such thing — there is no man brain pattern or woman brain pattern. Stop the bullshit.

  • Meghan Murphy

    AN ENLARGED CLITORIS IS LITERALLY NOT WHAT A PENIS IS ARE YOU ON GLUE!?!?

    • thebewilderness

      I do not think they know anything about female physiology. That is why they say these bizarre things. They believe certain things, that are impervious to fact, because they need to believe them to maintain the delusions.

      • Omzig Online

        The sad part is that there are a ton of well-meaning liberals that buy into their garbage because they’re simply not confident enough in their knowledge of biology to combat their nonsense. The trans cult has a vested interest in keeping the general public confused about reproductive biology. Can’t imagine why.

        The fact is that human biology is very knowable, definable, and understandable, no matter what your level of education is. It should be a topic that is used to intrigue and fascinate people, and to inspire them to learn more. But instead the trans cult is using it (incorrectly) to confuse, derail, muddy, and obfuscate an otherwise really cool subject. The trans cult throws out words like “adrenal hyperplasia” and your average joe starts sctratching their heads in bewilderment. I find this practice personally offensive.

        When ANYONE, the trans cult especially, seems that heavily invested in the public being confused and misinformed, you can bet it’s for nefarious reasons.

    • Kiwipally

      I’m pleased he wrote that. It shows the level of delusion and/or outright lying.

  • thebewilderness

    Adult males calling themselves girls is creepy as fuck d00d.
    Look at you here monopolizing women’s time and attention. Wakame. You are a perfect example of being raised expecting girls and women to pander to you. No woman would stick around a blog where she is clearly unwelcome.

    • Wakame

      “No woman would stick around a blog where she is clearly unwelcome.”

      You clearly don’t know enough strong women.

      • Meghan Murphy

        lolllllll

      • hellkell

        We do, you’re just not one of them.

      • M. Zoidberg

        We know lots of strong women — but you’re a dude. You’re arrogant like a dude. You insult our intelligence like a dude. Oh, and you were born with a cock. Yup, a dude all around.

      • thebewilderness

        Wakame thebewilderness • 3 days ago
        “No woman would stick around a blog where she is clearly unwelcome.”
        You clearly don’t know enough strong women.

        This is significant, I think. You seem to think that when you violate other people’s clearly stated requests that you leave their space that is a sign of strength. It is not. It is abuse. Strong women do not abuse others.

  • thebewilderness

    Zombie lies never die because men never stop telling them.

  • Jennifer R.

    Removing your penis and testicles makes you a eunuch, not a woman. Removing a woman’s ovaries and uterus also leaves her a eunuch, and adding a fake penis doesn’t make her a man.

  • thebewilderness

    Zombie lies never die because men like you never stop telling them.

  • M. Zoidberg

    >>“I transitioned from having a masculine body and a male legal and social identity”

    I.e. a man.

    >>“to having a feminine body and female legal and social identity.”

    Still a man!! (who performs lady-face)

  • thebewilderness

    Criminy d00d you are just slurping from the delicious chum bucket of narcissistic feed here, aren’t you?

    • Wakame

      I would say not, but do you have an analysis of the points I have raised?

      • Kiwipally

        LOL your “points” are you stamping your feet and demanding that your beliefs be taken seriously.

        No-one here is taking you seriously. You would be amusing if you weren’t so narcissistic and sociopathic.

        What is a man?
        What is a woman?
        How are babies made?

  • Jennifer R.

    If male brains and female brains are so different, then why not make the men who claim to have female brains have male brains by treating them with extra testosterone?

  • thebewilderness

    I think it a manipulative trick to change the male/female binary to the trans/cis binary by conflating trans identified males and females described as trans folks as opposed to males and females referred to as cis people.
    The manipulation is often in the framing.

  • Hanakai

    Most of the transsexual males who pretend to be females seem to be employed selling sex.

    And yes, mentally ill people have higher rates of unemployment than normal healthy people.

    And transsexualism is a choice. Being born female is not a choice.

  • Hanakai

    Now your stupidity is on full display. You do not know the difference between a penis and a clitoris. No wonder you are confused about what sex you are!

    A penis has a urethra. A clitoris does not. Women do not pee through the clitoris. Males pee through the penis, which contains a urethra.

    Maybe it would help transsexuals to study human anatomy.

  • elle-laments

    A feminine body? Not a FEMALE body.
    You are right though, you’re the same male person all along – wherever you run, there you’ll be.

  • FierceMild

    Parents and teachers are the ones treating children differently based on sex. They are also the ones who know transgirls are male. This is not a voluntary set of behaviors on the part of adults. It is something culturally conditioned and done without thought.

    Teachers who participate in studies in the topic are appalled when they see themselves on video silencing girls and encouraging boys in their classrooms. They don’t know they’re doing it. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1994-02-28/news/9402280003_1_myra-and-david-sadker-boys-demand-boys-rise

    Parents gender socialize their children before birth and in infancy (parents know the sex of their child) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022096500925979

    The idea that transchildren are socialized as the opposite sex is not based in fact. They are socialized as the sex they are for years before being transed and as trans kids thereafter. A person can no more avoid this type of gendered socialization than they can avoid racist socialization.

    Neither white nor black people can avoid the broad societal socialization of white supremacy (not as hoods and crosses per say, but as institutionalized racism and racist ideas) even if they live in non-racist families. Likewise neither girls nor boys can avoid the socialization of male supremacy no matter how they identify. Further, not one living person – including you – is actually unaware of what makes a person male and what makes a person female, as you have inadvertently demonstrated several times tbrough your comments.

  • FierceMild

    They aren’t living as female and we don’t need to remember socialization anymore then we need to remember language acquisition. It is a part of the formation of our mental pathways.

  • FierceMild

    Here is my theory, know I might be mistaken, but I’m going from the facts I have which are as follows:

    1) you were sexually molested or assaulted or raped as a child.

    2) you have a sister whose body you believe yours should resemble.

    3) our societal gendered socialization is present before birth (pink blanket or blue?)

    4) you have a young child’s understanding of sex, but an adult’s grasp of other things.

    I believe your sister was abused previous to, or simultaneous with, your abuse. I think you saw or were forced to witness this abuse. You may also have been exposed to porn. You classified, as 3 to 4 year old children do, these sexual acts as meted out by male to female. Then those sexual acts were meted out to you by a male and with your child’s understanding of sex this made you female in your own mind, like your sister.

    Instead of receiving help and healing for this trauma you received reinforcement of your conclusions, which is why you still have a four year old’s conception of what sex is.

    I think this is what happened to you. I could be wrong, but your behavior is indicative of me being correct even if you should choose to deny it (as many certainly would if only to maintain privacy). I am sorry for you, but you are still male.

  • Wren

    well he definitely doesn’t have a job, so boredom plays a key role.

  • Kiwipally

    There is no such thing as a sex identity. Sex is a biological reality. You can’t “identify” with being another sex just as people can’t identify with having six legs, or ultraviolet vision.

  • Kiwipally

    LOL “covering the meaning of”. You stamping your feet and insisting you have a female identity is not “covering the meaning”.

    More lies from you.

  • Kiwipally

    The fucking male privilege of saying one was invisible as a boy/man.

  • Kiwipally

    It was nice of the trans activists writing repeated comments on this article showing they don’t care one hoot about girls’ and women’s spaces, or girls’s and women’s safety. Which, of course, was the point of this article.

    • thebewilderness

      That struck me also. That none of the men here wanted to discuss the article but rather the woman’s right to write about the subject of the article.

  • Melanie

    If gender identity is just a deep, inner feeling of being one sex or the other then why does that study ask so many questions about whether the children play with dolls, what activities they prefer, what jobs they would like to do, whether they play sport etc?

  • Melanie

    How can you ‘feel female’ if sex is vague and nuanced and not a simple binary?

  • Melanie

    It’s not a same sex marriage if one of you is male and one of you is female.

  • Melanie

    I prefer sensible footwear too because when I was pregnant I developed varicose veins and I now suffer chronic pain in my legs and feet. I’ve had two operations over the years and will probably have to have another one eventually, but it’s an incurable condition. Taking oral contraception to prevent pregnancy can also cause varicose veins and females are more likely to develop the condition. As in actual females, not just people who ‘feel female’. Not that I would ever wear heels anyway, but my point is that sex matters and it has different consequences for men and women. It’s not just all in your head.

  • Just Passing Through

    No one believes men are women or vice versa!!!! Even the delusional handmaidens know deep in their gut a male is not a female ffs! Enough of this BS already!

  • hellkell

    Are you fucking insane? I mean, really. Being this ignorant should be physically painful.

  • hellkell

    “A man is born with a penis, so is a transgender woman, so a transgender woman must be a man.”

    You’re correct, however inadvertently. Watch out or you’ll be branded a TERF.

  • hellkell

    Bullshit, my good sir. Quit it with the lies and the complete misappropriation of Crenshaw’s work.

  • Kiwipally

    Oh wow, hold the presses. Because of the hearsay that Wakame says about his mum, all us feminists are wrong! Because no mother ever has not realised she has treated her male children different to her female children.

  • Kiwipally

    Statistically, people with disorders of the mind are more likely to be unemployed.

  • Kiwipally

    You understand that you are in the biological class of male and are deluded that you can be in the biological class of female. You will never know what it is like to be female. You can come here and stamp your feet and demand that we believe you all you like, you’re deluded and/or lying.

  • Kiwipally

    People with disorders of sexual development have their disorder entirely defined on biological grounds. So your comment that “the existence of intersex people disproves your biological essentialist “biology is destiny” position” is an outright lie.

    Another lie from you!

  • Kiwipally

    Wow, and now we have the typical male response of “but I was being ironic” when called out. Dude, every comment you type proves you are male. As I said earlier, you are not doing yourself any favours coming here. The glory you think you are covering yourself in is, in fact, shit.

  • Hanakai

    Did anyone ask? We are women. We are interested in women and women’s experience. We have heard all the trans-insanity and rationalizations before and we are not impressed.

    No one asked you to come here and pontificate and ego-aggrandize yourself by monopolizing the forum. But that is what men do and part of what marks you indelibly as ale.

    Now, please run along and go share your delusions with other deluded ones.

  • Wakame

    “Disorder of Sexual Development. Not common.”

    Nor are trans people.

    • Zuzanna Smith

      Males with paraphillias are actually pretty common. That’s what you have.

  • FierceMild

    I send my daughter to an alternative education school. The children spend as much time outside as in and the pedagogical method is collaborative and child led. The people attracted to this type of school tend to fall into a few groups one of which is ludicrously permissive emotionally damaged liberals. I try hard to avoid them and not engage. Especially since I can’t afford to loose my daughter’s financial aid until I finish school!

    • Wren

      “ludicrously permissive emotionally damaged liberals” is a parenting group!! LMAO

  • Kiwipally

    I know! Everytime they say something where I think “no one can be that stupid” they then post something else that proves they are even more stupid.

    Although Occam’s razor suggests they are manipulatively lying, rather than being stupid.

  • Kiwipally

    Oh wow did that give me an image.

  • Kiwipally

    Again, you can’t even keep your lies straight. First you insist that there is a difference between “male” brains and “female” brains and now, because it suits your present purpose, you are implying they are “very similar” – which uses slippery words. The reason why you use slippery words is so that, when we answer you back in good faith, you can say “that’s not what I meant” – so you can shift the goal posts, yet again.

    FFS trans people do not have “a hormonal disease”. The reason your voice breaks, your hair recedes, and you get a full beard is that you are male. Being male (biological sex) is not a fucking hormonal disease.

    But you know that, you’re lying. Again. Every response you make is another lie and/or shifting of the goal posts. Congratulations, you’re helping more people reach #PeakTrans with your comments.

    What is a man?
    What is a woman?
    How are babies made?

  • M. Zoidberg

    Good, you did reply.

    Now, Wakame, the silver-dollar question: What is a female identity?

  • Kiwipally

    Neither of those nature.com links are going through to an article (which I am going to assume is an opinion piece rather than a peer-reviewed piece of research). Can you give me the name of the piece so I can search for it?

  • Abu Ali

    Don’t put a bugle in your pants for crying out loud!

  • AT42

    Perhaps because people who think that are “creeps” and so not worth arguing with.
    However I do understand the feelings of women who have been abused and the need to feel safe.
    But in a public space, such as a women’s conference I think an abusive man would be lucky to survive with his genetalia intact!!!
    The 20th century has made some progress towards gender equality.

    But we have a long way to go. One day the right of a person to be what nature has made them will be respected without any qualms.

  • melissa

    “Technically yes.”

    So technically if we’re all non-binary,technically we’re all trans,technically no one is “cis”, and pretty much everything about this trans narrative is utter nonsense.

    “Of course – having a body outside the average doesn’t change your gender identity. That’s why trans people exist.”

    No one was talking about bodies,quit shifting the goal post. And trans people don’t typically have bodies “outside the average”, they typically have perfectly average male or female physiology.

    “That’s actually the opposite of what I’ve been saying.”

    Not really. That’s essentially what the implication of the whole “lady brain”/man brain argument is.

    “I am even saying that someone born with a penis and testicles can be a woman.”

    What exactly is a woman than? Not femininity? Not genitals?Not chromosomes? Not brains? So what is it? How do you identify with or “feel” like something you can’t even come close to coherently defining?

  • ExceptionallyAnonymous

    To me nothing defines the experience of womanhood as well as the disappointment your family has when the ultrasound shows you’re a baby girl.
    To me this is the original misogyny.

    (If they allow you to be born obviously)

    I wasn’t assigned female at birth. I am female. And one of my grandmothers said to my mum: “it’s ok next time it will be a boy”.
    This is womanhood to me.

  • M. Zoidberg

    What the Hell are you talking about?! You’ve been in a comment section you don’t belong to all weekend spraying your delusional bullshit.

    You were born a man. Your cock makes you a man. Just because some politicians have decided to figuratively suck your dicks for political gains with the left doesn’t mean the rest of us are delusional too. An ‘F’ on your passport doesn’t make you a woman. Getting fake tits doesn’t make you a woman. Cutting off your cock doesn’t make you a woman.

    You have proven over the past few days that you do not respect real women’s boundaries. Our facts and concerns are brushed aside in favour of your personal delusions. You must know by now that your circular reasoning and pseudo-science are not welcome here.

    Now, fuck off, dude!

  • Meghan Murphy

    What people are saying is that trans identified males often understand ‘woman’ to mean ‘feminine’, i.e. they think to be a woman = stereotypes. What people are accusing you of is behaving in a ‘masculine’ way, in terms of how men are socialized under patriarchy. i.e. the entitlement, the demanding women cater to your feelings/put your feelings first, etc. You were socialized into masculinity as a male. Your behaviour shows this.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Comparing gender in our Western, patriarchal culture to the way some Indigenous cultures understood ‘gender’ in pre-colonial cultures is purposeless. Gender isn’t complex in our society — it’s about the way males and females are socialized under patriarchy in order to reinforce the hierarchy that exists/male domination/female subordination.

  • thebewilderness

    You are mistaken. The reality of human reproduction is not a problem. Male dominance and male violence is the problem. In fact male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.

  • thebewilderness

    We would dissociate and possibly attempt suicide if that didn’t work. That is what we do when we suffer unbearable cognitive dissonance and abuse in childhood. There is nothing unique about your experience, d00d.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    Nah, to be a woman you would have been born a female baby, gone through girlhood and grown into a female adult (woman) through female puberty. As a man you didn’t because you couldn’t. Buh bye.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    Please don’t compare your healthy body which you chose to surgically alter to the genuinely sick bodies of cancer patients. Is there anyone you won’t offend in your quest to convince yourself of your delusions?

    • Kiwipally

      The one group he isn’t offending is… drum roll please… men.

  • thebewilderness

    Submission to the male dominance display is what makes trans identified males transwomen. It is all about obedience. Always has been.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    No such thing as trans”girls”, just boys being punished for being gay. You think your mom thought you were a girl? Lol

  • thebewilderness

    Did you read a Robert Heinlein fantasy and take him seriously?

  • Zuzanna Smith

    Lol, umm no woman has ever ejaculated or urinated out of her clitoris, do you even understand how a female body works, sir?

  • Zuzanna Smith

    By that logic, sir, you should put on some trousers grow a mustache and you’ll have no more trouble from homophobes, it shouldn’t be too hard since you’re already a man, good luck.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    Please link to one trans persons who was harmed by a radical feminist, and by harmed I don’t mean hurt feefees.

  • Hanakai

    So you also harbor the delusion that you had the ability to be invisible? Here is some reality: you were never invisible. Males are seen. Cloaking is science fiction.

    It is definitely a man, as only males use this sort of illogic. Everything it says is reminiscent of American military logic from the Vietnam era, the reasoning being: “We had to destroy the village to save it.” Manlogics.

  • Hanakai

    I agree, in that I really do not care how men dress. But as an employer, my employees represent my company and mentally ill and delusional is not the impression we want to create.

  • Morag999

    Trans-identified men aren’t being “made to walk this very fine line.” You aren’t being made to do anything.

    What you’re doing is lying. Lying about who you are, and expecting others to not only buy into the lie, but to actively validate it.

    Sounds like a very difficult way to live. I’m sure your choice to live a lie DOES, indeed, feel like walking on a tightrope!

  • Kiwipally

    Or they are scared of him.

  • Kiwipally

    No.

    What is a man?
    What is a woman?
    How is a baby made?

  • Kiwipally

    LOL “science” on YouTube.

    What is a man?
    What is a woman?
    How is a baby made?

    • lk

      Still waiting for rational logical answers to the these questions…

      My favorites response to how the babies are made question is that babies are made when human sperm fertilizes human egg…Lol, like the sperm and egg are just floating around in space and biological sex has NOTHING do do with it.

    • Omzig Online

      That Youtube video was such a fucking joke. At no point did that professor state that trans-identified males have an “Intersex” condition.

      His claims about trans-males having smaller amygdalae that resemble women’s is totally bogus, too. I couldn’t even find the research he was referring to about the amygdalae (leading me to believe that he completely made that shit up), but I *did* find this:

      “To date, research findings are inconsistent about whether the neuroanatomy in transgender persons resembles that of their natal sex or their gender identity[…]The mean neuroanatomical volume for the amygdala, putamen, and corpus callosum differed between transgender women and natal women but not between transgender women and natal men.”

      Hmmmmm….I wonder if the brains of trans-males and natal males are similar because they’re both fucking MEN?!?

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27490457/

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27956206/

      It’s hard for me to believe that a well-respected neuroendocrinologist would put his good name on the line to support such flimsy findings. He even had the audacity to compare trans-males to amputees experiencing “phantom limb pain.” He claimed that because trans-males didn’t experience this painful phenomenon when their penises were removed, it must be because they were really born in the wrong body, and they were never really meant to own a penis to begin with.

      As someone that has worked with many, many amputees, I found this comparison incredibly crass and offensive. Out of hundreds of amputees that I’ve cared for, only 1 actually experienced phantom limb pain. Should we conclude that the other amputees that don’t feel this type of pain were “born in the wrong body,” or that they were simply never meant to have two legs in the first place? After watching the intense grieving process that amputees go through with the loss of their ability, this professor’s remarks seemed incredibly fucked up.

      Funny, these (male) scientists and professors and doctors all think their shit don’t stink. They’re desperate to find something that sounds even remotely science-y to confirm their misogynistic beliefs. They really believe that we’ll be too intimidated by big words like “amygdalae oblungata” to investigate these claims for ourselves. And when you go to check their sources and read the actual research for yourself, their claims look more like a mirage in a desert.

  • Kiwipally

    Begging the question and shifting the goalposts fallacies.

    What is a man?
    What is a woman?
    How is a baby made?

  • Morag999

    “Feminists rightly fight for the rights of women but we know that human gender is more complex than the female/male dichotomy that has been imposed on humanity for thousands of years.”

    No. Male and female were not “imposed” on us. What a ridiculous statement. Unless you’re talking about some kind of creator or gods or something? And it hasn’t been only thousands of years — humanity’s ancestors go back millions of years. They, like us, were female and male. They had babies together, OK? That’s why we’re here.

    No, female and male are not endlessly “complex.” Snort! We are sexed animals, and there are only two sexes. Eggs and sperm. It’s called sexual reproduction. A child can understand this. Why can’t you?

  • elle-laments

    “The problem is the imposition of binary sexuality on humans.”
    We’re not talking about sexuality.
    Appropriating Native American culture to argue for people with penises entering women only spaces? Haven’t heard that one before./sarcasm

  • thebewilderness

    4th rule of misogyny: Women’s opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.

  • Kiwipally

    Okay, own up. Who said Wakame three times in front of a mirror?

  • Omzig Online

    So, as someone who was assigned female at birth, if I identify as a male really, really hard…..do you think I could get a woman pregnant? I mean, sure, I was born with a normal female reproductive tract, but all that is just a social construct, right? If I was CONVINCED that I was born in the wrong body, could I start producing male sperm? I’m really hoping you’ll say yes, because I would love to get myself pregnant.

  • Wakame

    Your first link compares transitioned trans people with people who are not trans. It doesn’t compare post transition trans people with pre transition trans people. If you read the actual study in full, it contains this paragraph:

    “It is therefore important to note that the current study is only
    informative with respect to transsexuals persons health after sex
    reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex
    reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the
    results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment.”

    I can supply a link to the scientist discussing how this study is often misrepresented.

    The same team of scientists that you are quoting also did a study of all the sexual reassignments in Sweden between 1960 and 2010. That’s 767 people followed over a 50 year period. They found a regret rate of just over 2%

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24872188

    • Omzig Online

      Yeah, I know the trans cult doesn’t like that study.

      But my point to Alana still stands, and comparing them to natal populations is what made the article so useful. If gender-reassignment surgery “fixes” a so-called transgender person, their rate of suicide should drop dramatically to match that of their preferred sex, but it doesn’t. It goes up.

      We can go back and forth citing various studies if you like, I really enjoy doing it, and I’m sure you do, too. But the overarching point to Meghan’s original article is that there is nothing about transgender-ism that entitles them to resources and spaces that are reserved for females. Their rates of suicide and regret, therefore, is completely irrelevant.

      In 2018, the rates of suicide among transgender-identified people could go up to 100%, or it could drop to zero, and it still doesn’t mean they can take something that doesn’t belong to them. Their rates of post-surgery regret could skyrocket to 100%, or it could plummet to zero, and you are still not entitled to something that is just not meant for you.

      Whether you’re suicidal or not, and whether you regret surgery or not, you must find your own resources, and establish your own spaces.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Transition houses and prisons (not that prisons are ‘safe’ per se, but it’s very dangerous to house males in female prisons) as well.

  • Elizabeth Helen Rose Sidwell

    There is no biological basis for saying that there is a ‘female’ brain and a ‘male’ brain. The human brain is no more hardwired to be ‘male’ than it is ‘female’. Inequality between the sexes – and the construction of gender identity – is an entirely cultural concept predicated upon what people have between their legs and the subsequent assessment of their cultural and social value. Which is what everyone on here has been saying… I suggest you look at Cordelia Fine’s work.

  • Elizabeth Helen Rose Sidwell

    There aren’t. You’re wrong. Wanting it to be true doesn’t make it so.

  • Meghan Murphy

    It’s ok to disagree 🙂

  • Wren

    In the U.S. the places trans identified men want to infiltrate are:
    women’s domestic violence shelters and support services
    women’s rape crisis centers and support services
    women’s homeless shelters
    women’s prisons
    women’s drug rehab programs
    women’s bathrooms and locker rooms
    women’s barracks and facilities in the military
    women’s activist organizations empowerment programs
    women’s health programs (like Planned Parenthood)
    women’s colleges
    women’s sports teams
    women’s professional organizations

    But they don’t just want to take over women’s resources, they want trans identified boys to be allowed to access:
    girls’ locker rooms
    girls’ bathrooms
    girls’ schools
    girls’ sports teams (title IX will be decimated by the trans lobby)

    You get the idea.
    Did I miss anything??

    • Morag999

      Same thing for Canada.

  • Wren

    Yes, and anybody that believes the stupid things they say is just as stupid. This movement is illustrating the horrible state of education in the U.S. (I won’t comment on Canada).

  • Melanie

    It’s funny how modern intersectional feminism never counts being female as an intersection, despite the fact that being born female results in one of the most widespread forms of oppression that there is. Men who have ‘identified as women’ for two weeks are more oppressed than actual females? Nope.

  • Melanie

    He’s using the term ‘masculine body’ and ‘feminine body ‘to avoid saying ‘male body’ and ‘female body’ which is what he really means. He can’t use clear, direct language because it would show up the nonsensical nature of what he’s saying. Male bodies can’t transform into female bodies, so his whole argument goes out the window unless he uses disingenuous language that skirts around the facts (no pun!).

  • thebewilderness

    I am sure you would. The things you would like to think are positively Orwellian.

  • thebewilderness

    When you conflate men and women and call them cis people your statistics become meaningless. There is no measurable cis people demographic because cis people is a figment of trans imagination.

  • thebewilderness

    She is sharing her beliefs with you, just as you have been sharing your beliefs with us. Isn’t that what you claim to be here for?

  • Omzig Online

    We do accept all women as women, silly!

    We don’t, however, accept that males can redefine womanhood to include themselves. Only an ignorant, arrogant, male-supremacist, misogynistic prick would ever believe such a silly thing.

    And we certainly don’t think that a male can literally become a female, because only a biologically illiterate, slow-witted simpleton could believe such rubbish. And you are no simpleton, are you?

    Listen, if you’re going to attempt to use feminist jargon such as “intersectionality”, can you please try to use it correctly? Ms. Kimberle Crenshaw, who first coined the term “intersectional,” would really appreciate it. The term is used to describe how being both a female and a person of color acts as a dual axis for oppression. The term was NOT intended for sad, confused males to weaponize it to manipulate gullible liberals into letting them in the ladies locker room.

    Please do try to use your feminist idioms correctly next time, ok? Oh, and just for fun-zies, I’ve attached K. Crenshaw’s original paper. You may want to have a look at it so that you can stop mangling the term “intersectional.”

    http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/uchclf1989&div=10&id=&page=

  • DeColonise

    And this year award of most eager trolling goes too…

    • thebewilderness

      Sea lion extrordinaire JAQing off for days in the same comment thread.

  • namesareirrelevant

    You cannot understand why a woman would because you’re not a woman. Women generally do understand how women are manipulated into harming themselves for the fetishes of men.

  • thebewilderness

    One of passive aggressive men’s favorites.

  • Melanie

    “…I am not alone in wondering how you are even qualified to make such an outlandish claim that these women are men”.

    Irony overload.

  • elle-laments

    Nice dodge of the opportunity to show concern for women, choosing to ignore the first two paragraphs and instead talk, yet again, about yourself.

  • elle-laments

    That was my thought too. And it wasn’t a nice thought…

  • Melanie

    Transwomen are also able to request a body search from a female officer. The officer will have to comply regardless of how she feels about it.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Well, now we’re back at square one. Again, no one actually believes ‘transwomen are women.’ They say that because they know they have to.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Adult human female adult human female adulthumanfemaleadulthumanfemaleaaaaduuuuuulthuuuumaaaanfeeeemaaaaaale.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Being gay isn’t a belief, though. It is about same sex attraction/people who have romantic/intimate relationships with people of the same sex. It is a material thing. “Feeling like a woman” is not a quantifiable thing, because that doesn’t mean anything.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Tall women and blue-eyed women are female. Trans identified males are not female.

  • Kiwipally

    You have committed another missing the point fallacy.

    What is a man?
    What is a woman?
    How are babies made?

  • FierceMild

    True, and you just self-classified as a man 😉

  • Kiwipally

    Missing the point logical fallacy, Mr Sea Lion.

    What is a man?
    What is a woman?
    How are babies made?

  • FierceMild

    Theory wrong then, but there is no rule about theorizing without all of the data, just about concluding without all of the data.

  • Kiwipally

    Saying “transwomen are women” is a fallacy of equivocation and a fallacy of circular reasoning.

    What is a man?
    What is a woman?
    How are babies made?

  • FierceMild

    Just lay back and let it happen, it’ll be over before you know it and there’s nothing you can do to stop it. We’ve heard that before.

  • la scapigliata

    Your mind is a mind of a fetishist. You also lie and use logical fallacies all the time, as evidenced by your comments here. I’m not moved by your obvious manipulation and emotional blackmail. Just because I think an adult transactivist such as yourself is a fetishist doesn’t in any way suggest I think the same of children. Any psychiatrist worth their salt has experience with personality disordered, emotionally abusive men such as yourself, who have a habit of dragging children into an argument to justify their deviation.

    Btw, no child identifies as the opposite sex any more than they identify as a dog or a choo-choo train, this dogma is an invention of transactivists and attention seeking parents who are responding to a social contagion which was engineered by adult autogynaephillic fetishists and supported by drug companies, who realised that by doing so, they can create a market for their toxic drugs which are proven to be dangerous so doctors no longer prescribe them freely for adults.

    Your lies are unravelling and soon the society will be reeling from the damage done to the very children you and your dudebros are using as a shield.

  • Danielle Matheson

    Lol. You don’t pass. You won’t pass when you’re dead and gone and someone identifies your skeleton as male. My god, you have no idea what it means to be female. But you’re a man so you’ll go on calling me wrong.

    And your trans cult constantly shifts the goal posts of what a “real trans person” is. Every time a trans identified male is recognized for some male violence shit, y’all come out and say he’s not a real trans person. You can’t have it both ways.

    And you’re not sane if you’re so uncomfortable with your body you think can change sex. No amount of synthetic hormones or plastic surgery can change your sex. And you’re delusional if you think it does.

    Lobbying to get gender dysphoria to not be characterized as a mental illness doesn’t change the fact that it is. It’s no different than run of the mill body dysmorphia. There’s a lot of money in treating people like you. And money makes the world go round…

  • Danielle Matheson

    In what way, other than in your mind, were you a female? You weren’t. You aren’t. Just because you have people who keep up with your delusion still doesn’t make you a female.

    You still have a male skeleton, male hormones, male DNA. You were socialized as male, whether you agreed with it or not.

    It’s offensive to real women and girls to call yourself one and demand access to our spaces. That’s a very male thing to do. No one is stopping you from making trans only spaces. It’s a perfectly good alternative. That way you’re not taking away from actual women and people there know how you feel in your state of trans.

  • Danielle Matheson

    You went from being an oppressor who took from an oppressed group, to being an oppressor who thinks they have a legal right to female space. You’re an arrogant douche. Now you can take from actual women and girls and you have no problem doing it. Narcissism through and through.

    And your body will always be a male body. An inverted penis isn’t a vagina. It’s a surgical wound that want to heal. Using dilates to keep it from closing…real vaginas don’t need to do that.

    • Abu Ali

      sadly they think a vagina is just a hole to accommodate a penis

  • Danielle Matheson

    Your insanity is clouding your critical thinking. You can’t have a feminine body. Because femininity is a social construct. One can have a female body, but that’s a physiological reality. It’s a biological impossibility to change sex. Anything you do is purely cosmetic and that’s just how it works.

  • Danielle Matheson

    The exception doesn’t prove the rule. And speaking of…most intersex conditions are sex specific. Kleinfelter is a male disorder, while Turners syndrome is on females. And not to mention, for the millionth time, intersex people are not a gotcha for the trans movement to use to further their cause. Not that trans people care bc they still use them.

  • Danielle Matheson

    No. Still not female. Not socialized as female. Little boys can not become little girls and more than adult males can become adult females. They don’t get female socialization.

  • Danielle Matheson

    Why would we? They’re just little dudes trying to take away the hard earned spaces for little girls. Destroying all the work women put in to make the world more tolerable for them. So, thanks for that. You don’t care because all you want is validation that you’re suddenly a woman bc you say so.

  • Danielle Matheson

    You’re a male. Of course you were a boy. And I’m assuming you’re old enough to be an adult, so now you’re a man. No amount of delusion and medical intervention makes you a female. And it’s insulting to ACTUAL WOMEN that you ignore us and what makes us women (being female) and talk over us and insult us by being a liar.

  • Danielle Matheson

    How is you identifying as a woman any less ridiculous as Rachel Dozal identifying as black? Not to mention offensive. Being a woman and being black are both biological realities that come with historical histories of tragedy. They get treated specific ways in society due to lack of social power. Institutionalize racism and misogyny are things your average white trans dude doesn’t have.

  • Danielle Matheson

    See and you use the word cis. No one here is cis. We do not use that word because we are just women. The reason you get a qualifier is because you aren’t female. No one is 100% comfortable in the gender roles forced on them by society. So, take your misogyny out of here.

  • Danielle Matheson

    Making actual women a priority is bad now? Who is going to look out for women if not other women? Men certainly aren’t. Trans people aren’t.

  • Danielle Matheson

    I like how you’ve asked these three questions at lest five times and he still refuses to answer them. I mean we all know why…

  • FierceMild

    There is a difference between violence and abuse. You’re making another category error. There is such a thing as violent abuse, but not all violence = abuse, and not all abuse =violence. Neither of these things is directly related to agreement or disagreement. This is the same mistake in thinking you are applying to sex and gender.

  • FierceMild

    We agree. Who you are is between your ears, what sex you are is visible between your legs (unless you cut it off).

  • Zuzanna Smith

    I don’t believe you “identfied as female” at 3-4 years old, dude. You are a fetishist who invented a past for yourself so you don’t sound quite so creepy in your autogynephilia, news flash, it’s backfired.

    • Melanie

      I think a lot of transgender people conveniently rewrite their history. Human beings are prone to do that as it is, let alone when they want to convince people of or give legitimacy to their agenda.

  • Morag999

    ‘I don’t identify “with”, I identify “as”.’

    Finally! A true statement.

    Yeah, we KNOW you don’t identify with women. That’s what we’ve been saying all along. That is, in fact, the crux of this very article.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t understand why you think it is or should be a goal of feminists to be ‘taken seriously’ by anti-feminists? You seem to believe we should alter our entire analysis and our activism in order to make anti-feminists happy.

    As you say, feminism is about supporting women. If that makes men angry, too bad.

  • meh

    Lol. A man is an adult biological male. A woman is an adult biological female. When a man impregnates a woman with his sperm a zygote is formed that sometimes becomes a foetus which sometimes becomes a baby.

    But then, you already know that 🙂

  • meh

    Your’re a man who had his cock sliced off. Bye, dude.

  • meh

    Anyone else hoping that soon the aggressive man who sliced his cock off and fetishes his sister will finally be blocked? Maybe it’s just me, but his violent hatred of women and desperation to harm us is genuinely disgusting me.

  • S3anyBoy

    Imagine hating trans people so much that you’ve convinced yourself that “penis=man vagina=woman” is a new and compelling argument.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Imagine being so ignorant and regressive that you construe disagreeing with your religion as ‘hate’.

    • Kiwipally

      Imagine being so stupid that you’ve convinced yourself that chromosomes mean nothing.

      What is a woman?
      What is a man?
      How are babies made?
      What is a human?

    • FierceMild

      Biology = hate speech? Interesting. Why isn’t it hate speech when transwomen call us “fish” because our vaginas offend them? Why isn’t it hate speech when transwomen say vaginas should be called front-holes? Why isn’t it hate when transwomen demand our public submission to their ideas?

    • DeColonise

      Imagine trolling so much on Internet that you convinced yourself material reality no longer exists.

  • Zoë Lafantaisie

    That we KNOW of – chances are the numbers are much higher than that.

  • Zoë Lafantaisie

    Wow – I think you’re onto something here. I agree they are clearly abusers, gaslighters, liars, power-hungry fetishists and self-appointed victims (all part of the gaslighting). Their arguments make NO sense whatsoever and they get angry immediately when you disagree with them and call you violent because they can’t get their way. They are classic MRAs/abusers (same thing really.)

  • Zoë Lafantaisie

    LOL – it’s always a hoot when a male can “prove” he’s of superior intelligence because he can find some women who are submissive to him and his buddies that agree with him. Without a shred of understanding of how the world of women works under patriarchal domination. You’re a hoot seaweed dude.

  • Zoë Lafantaisie

    And it’s very disturbing that you keep going back to the fact that when you were 3 or 4 years old you felt like something was wrong with your body. I’m assuming you’re now a lot older than that but somehow your thinking hasn’t caught up with your age. I used to think a lot of things when I was a little girl, including that I wanted to be referred to as a boy because I saw all the privileges my brother had simply because he was born into the privilege sex class. As I am no longer a child, I have learned to think things through, get help where I needed it and continue to challenge the dialogue that goes on in my own head about beliefs that I held as a child. Context dude, context – think, research, challenge. Stop thinking like a 3 year old – it’s time to grow up.

  • Zoë Lafantaisie

    Depression and pain are symptoms, which require compassionate treatment and understanding but what we usually do is throw drugs at them. Research is ongoing in both of those areas. But what is missing is a contextual understanding – and you’re just using them as derails here. No real scientist thinks gender is anything but a tool of manipulation but gender isn’t something any actual scientist would study. Sex is the issue here, not gender. No one says your feelings aren’t real, we’re just asking you to do something about your confusion instead of trying to browbeat us into submission.

  • Meghan Murphy

    No, transwomen are male. Of course you know this… If not, may I recommend grade five sex ed? Best of luck!

    • S3anyBoy

      Maybe when you get past 5th grade you’ll learn about more complex biology Mr Meghan, but given your willful ignorance I doubt it. Better to just put you out of our misery.

      • Meghan Murphy

        I just wish I were as mature and articulate as yooooou!

      • Kiwipally

        Begging the question and ad hominem fallacies.

        What is a woman?
        What is a man?
        How are babies made?
        What is a human?

  • Meghan Murphy

    “when disagreeing with someone it’s respectful to call them their preferred pronouns”
    Lying is respectful? Ok…

    “we get it, you don’t have anything of substance to back up your bullshit”
    Meanwhile, you have not offered a single argument, and I have written numerous very clear arguments.

    Can you tell me what your argument is? I’m liiiiisteniiiiing xx

    • S3anyBoy

      cAn You TeLl Me wHat YoUR aRguMEnT iS?

      My argument is that you’re a stupid cunt and everything you say backs it up.

      Violence against women is bad, but against dogs like you? Can’t say I mind it.

      • Meghan Murphy

        lolll that was easy, wasn’t it?

      • Omzig Online

        Easy there, little fella! You let your male rage get the better of you. Meghan Murphy has an uncanny talent for triggering misogynists. You made that WAY too easy for her.

        Now run along and go play some video games, little fella!

      • Kiwipally

        My what a great science-based argument you have.

        What is a woman?
        What is a man?
        How are babies made?
        What is a human?

      • FierceMild

        Wow, your idea of “respectful” disagreement is calling women stupid cunts? Nah, mate.

      • Hanakai

        Oh look! It is calling women dogs and vile profanities. It has to be a misogynistic male. Sounds just like a typical MRA or MGTOW.

  • amde

    Nah. The preferred hysterical delusion of trannies is their problem, not ever going to let it be ours.

    Defining womanhood means literally nothing. There is no such thing as feels like a woman or acts like a woman. A woman is born a biological female and makes it into adulthood. The end. Anything she does or feels makes is what a woman does or feels. Just like anything a man who slices his cock off feels is what some men feel. Because you can never, ever change your sex and nobody gives a shit about your hurtywurty feelpinions.

    DARVO. Hey if you don’t let trannies steal your human rights, get into your safe places to beat, rape and murder women, purloin money meant to go to women and scream screech and rage hysterically in your face you’re oppressing us.

    As you are aware, humanity has the entire field of science, biology, irrefutable facts and undeniable evidence to prove that you are batshit crazy and you can never become a woman.
    Dicks in dresses get treated as deserved here.

    Also, this whiny snivelling account is clearly a second account for one of the “hey I sliced my cock off but I’m totally not a mental case” dudebros who was banned earlier.

    I’m guessing Wakame got tired of trying to pretend through frothing lips that he could hold his temper.

    PS, Meh and namesareirrelevant posting under third ac so the comment can get through.

  • amde

    Sorry you’ve been degraded or abused or terrorised to the point where you’re pretending to believe a mentally ill man who slices his cock off can ever be a woman. Or maybe you’re just very stupid. Or both 🙂

    Either way, you can piss off now. You’re an actual embarrassment to women.

  • SMNZ

    I’m no one’s handmaiden sweetie, and all this thread is teaching me is that the maybe where ever you live needs a little more chlorine in the gene pool.
    I think you may find most “credible feminists” choose not to be TERFS as it removes both “credible” & the true definition of “feminist” from the argument

    But you keeping doing you, honey! It’s sweet seeing you girls hi-5ing each other!

    (I’s not like anyone else takes you seriously…)

  • SMNZ

    OMG. It’s not as easy as “saying your trans:.
    A NZ woman just won 2 silvers at the weightlifting world champs. She transitioned 4 years ago. She was legally cleared to compete by the IOC using their medical guidelines which include hormone levels.
    That kind of hormone change doesnt just happen. Calm down.

    How will schools manage it? thats a tougher question. lt’s possible trans kids might not be anle to play at interschool level without an independent declaration stating its not a just for sport thing.

    (in nz you cant get horone treatments without psych evals so kids start seeing someone early)

    As for education schoafships – its nkt hard to investigate how someone has been living.

    And remember, not everyone is as bigoted as you.
    A trans woman politician is a woman politician to me.

    • Melanie

      It’s not bigoted to acknowledge facts. A ‘woman’ who only two years ago was a teenage boy making rape jokes and feigning blow jobs on the internet is not a woman to me and has no experience or idea of what it is to be one, and as such can’t possibly represent women politically. I don’t think you even believe that crap, but we get it, it’s not the done thing to say so out loud. All those cookies!

    • Kris Åsard

      Anecdotical evidence is anethdotical.
      IF you sincierly DO believe that it’s “not as easy as saying you’re trans” could you then, by your own definitions, give us a singular example of a situation when a person claiming to be trans SHOULD be mistrusted?
      You know, just for arguments sake.
      Because otherwise you are really contradicting yourself.

    • Melanie

      Hubbard has won three of the four female competitions he’s entered. I suspect he threw this one and settled for silver because it was starting to look bad.

    • Kiwipally

      Hubbard is not a woman, Hubbard is a trans-identified man.

      What is a woman?
      What is a man?
      How are babies made?
      What is a human?

    • FierceMild

      What is the acceptable testosterone level for transwomen competing in women’s sports? It is a level that, if found in a woman, would be considered doping. Let me also ask you why it is that there are precisely zero cases of transmen sweeping though men’s sports and raking in the victories?

  • Omzig Online

    Yeah, I know about that adorable little caveat in the DSM5.

    They made the EXACT same statement about pedophelia.

    It was a lightbulb moment for me when I made that connection.

    Apparently, the esteemed doctors that wrote the DSM 5 think that treating women and children like rape-fantasies and figments of the male imagination can be totally normal behavior… if males say it is.

    And THAT, my confused friend, is how patriarchy works. Institutions with power and prestige deciding that children can be used as male rape-fantasies as long as men don’t find it too distressing. Then those same institutions decide that womanhood is an ethereal essence that is possessed by the male imagination, if males declare it to be so. The education system, the health care system, and the justice system all work in a similar way. They cater explicitly to male desires. Don’t worry, Wakame, the patriarchy has your back! Because they know that you’re a man.

    It all happens at the expense of females (and children), but don’t you worry too much about that, Wakame! As long as you’ve deceived your way into private female spaces, that’s all that matters, right?

  • Omzig Online

    Glad to amuse you! I wasn’t proposing a theory, though, just my observations of male sex abuse victims, anecdotally.

    If you mean to say that you are partnered with a female, that means you are not in a same sex marriage. Did you mean you are married to a male like yourself? And if so, is he also a trans-identified male like you (if you don’t mind me asking)? I ask this because you said people mistakenly “think [you’re] a lesbian,” so it sounds like you understand that you are not, in fact, a lesbian at all, but a male that is attracted to females. Sounded like a Freudian slip to me.

  • Melanie

    “What happened to you? Why are you this way? Why are you so afraid of sharing?
    Why are you so empty of compassion? Why can’t you love?”

    Why aren’t you being a proper woman? Why aren’t you taking care of men and putting yourself last like you’re supposed to? Why aren’t you denying your own intelligence, your own reality and your own rights to appease men? They sometimes even give you cookies if you show your belly enough. What is wrong with you? Don’t you like cookies?!

  • amde

    You absolutely definitely do not pass. You’re a man. We always know you’re a man. Your dudebros know you’re a man and everyone who sees you knows you are a man. Irrefutably. There are about two people in the world who ever actually managed to pull of pretending to be women in public after months of plastic surgery. You’re not one of them.

  • amde

    He’s come back under a troll name above and is calling us cunts and saying we deserve to be attacked, so yeah he managed to pretend to keep his temper, more or less. Till he didn’t.

  • Omzig Online

    Disagreeing with an incoherent, male-centered ideology and demanding that our boundaries be acknowledged and respected is not “disrespectful,” silly! It’s feminism.

    Oh hey, but while you’re here, little buddy, I was wondering if you could answer some questions for me? You seem really eager to define womanhood and feminism for us, so I thought you wouldn’t mind.

    1) What is a woman?
    2) What is a man?
    3) How are babies made?

    I look forward to your thoughtful, succinct, rational, and cool-tempered response soon!

  • Melanie

    Most people know what a male and a female is. A lot of people are speaking out about how this impacts women and girls in particular, in female facilities, sports, prisons, schools, social groups etc. People are starting to question. Trans activists are desperately trying to silence the critiques in the media, universities and even the medical profession but it’s becoming harder as more people are speaking out and making reasonable, rational arguments about this ideology, how it’s impacting the rights of other people, how it effects families and children and where it’s all going. Maybe come back in a few decades and we’ll see how it all worked out.

  • Melanie

    What’s between your legs has a huge impact on who you are between your ears in our society. What do you think feminism is all about? One aspect of feminism is to help women stop dissociating from our female bodies and to learn to care for and respect them despite our society relentlessly telling us to hate our bodies and view ourselves as mere body parts, and despite all the violence, injury and harm that has been inflicted on them. Transgender people seem to espouse the opposite. They normalize dissociation and self loathing and think their bodies are ‘wrong’ or just parts that can be chopped and changed. because who they are is all in their head. The way they often speak of their ‘former selves’ in the third person is an example, like there’s this huge disconnect going on. We’re whole human beings and our bodies are a part of who we are. I have many experiences, memories, scars, injuries, both physical and psychological, both good and bad, that are a direct result of having a female body.

    • Zoë Lafantaisie

      Beautifully articulated Melanie!

  • Melanie

    How can you be feminist if you’re so invested in ‘masculinity’ and ‘femininity’? These sexist stereotypes are precisely what feminism is trying to challenge and end.

  • Melanie

    No they don’t have a uterus or ovaries, not because they’re women with a medical condition who had an operation. But because they’re male. Male violence and sex segregation for women and girls are feminist issues. I’m not sure what issues you think feminism should be concerned with, but women supporting males at the expense of our own rights, privacy and safety isn’t one of them. And please stop being disingenuous and pretending that you don’t know what girls and women are afraid of. You haven’t been following the news lately? Honestly, what are you trying to prove? Why are you trying to paint other girls and women as irrational when you know very well that our fears and concerns are well founded and valid?

  • SMNZ

    We share a country. We have had an openly trans mayor & mp. Trans is an accepted state legally.
    YOU are out of place and time.

    • Meghan Murphy

      lol. I suppose when men are in power that’s also the most progressive thing because it is what is currently happening??

      • FierceMild

        You know, I hear that we may soon pass an Equal Rights Amendment for women here in the USA. The only “women” who have full constitutional rights at the moment are transwomen…because they’re men. That’s part of the reason they are able to get legislation changed so much more quickly than women are. Well that and the fact that rampant homophobic anxiety is soothed by trans ideology. It’s not a gay man, that’s just a woman in the wrong body! Lesbian? I don’t think so, that’s a small, be-mammaried man.

  • SMNZ

    zzzz

    • Meghan Murphy

      Can’t answer the question, eh?

  • Meghan Murphy

    What is a woman?

    • Kiwipally

      They keep begging the question. How scientific of them! 🙂

  • Kiwipally

    Only men.

  • Kiwipally

    No they do not, because lesbians, being a small percentage of women, commit very few crimes. And because they are women, they are welcome in women’s spaces.

    Trans-identified men, being men, commit sexual crimes at the same rate – or greater than – non-trans-identified men.

    Thanks for coming here and throwing lesbians under the bus!

    Do you have any facts, or are you happy just to throw ad hominems around? And you’re the one who wanted to tone police, LOL.

    What is a woman?
    What is a man?
    How are babies made?

  • Melanie

    Except that one of these things is not like the others.

  • Melanie

    Feeling depression, pain or being gay are all rational things to say that you are or feel. They’re all real, valid possibilities. Saying that you’re a woman when you’re clearly not and are in fact a male is not the same thing. That is not a possibility.

  • Melanie

    No they’re not because they’re female and females are far less likely to commit sex crimes. The fact that they’re female also means that they’re not a problem as far as privacy. The idea is to mitigate risk and ensure equality of access to public space for girls and women. The best way to mitigate the risk of sexual violence and predation and to ensure privacy, dignity and equality of access is to have sex segregated facilities. That’s why they exist in the first place and are considered legitimate legal exceptions in equality law. At least until now when we have men who identify as women and their handmaidens trying to remove those legal protections from girls and women.

  • Kiwipally

    You keep begging the question, how sciency of you!

    What is a woman?
    What is a man?
    How are babies made?
    What is a human?

  • Kiwipally

    Why do you keep begging the question and coming here and insulting us? Please answer the questions I keep asking you:
    What is a woman?
    What is a man?
    How are babies made?
    What is a human?

    • lk

      Lol, I love that you added “what is a human” to your list of questions…

      • Kiwipally

        🙂 Well, I’m now reading in other areas that chromosomes are a social construct. Postmodernism seems to be the single biggest reason for the dumbing down of some university graduates.

  • FierceMild

    How, exactly, are transwomen women? What is a womb-man? Oh look, silly me I didn’t mean to use the Middle English for woman there, must have been my lady brain troubles again.

  • Kiwipally

    LOL, so now you admit you can’t answer:
    What is a woman?
    What is a man?
    How are babies made?
    What is a human?

    It’s telling that you come here and commit repeated ad hominems against women, who aren’t the ones attacking gender nonconforming men.

    So we saying that a man cannot be a woman is “behaviour barely qualifies as “proper human””, but you ignore men doing all the actual abuse. What a feminist you are!

    Why don’t you go away and address male violence instead?

  • FierceMild

    Wait, if we’re the ones with crazy classification of what makes a woman, why are you here yelling that men are women? And what does the word even mean?

  • Melanie

    It might be complex and nuanced in some people, but most of us are either male or female. That’s how we all got here. Transwomen are by definition not intersex, but males who ‘identify as women’.

  • FierceMild

    The mister and I nearly relocated to NZ a year or so ago, so we read up on some of the aspects of daily life that are really different. One of the strangest pieces of internet advise was to buy everything and bring it with you and damn the expense. Apparently the manufacturing in NZ isn’t very robust and everything has to be ordered in anyway?

    • Kiwipally

      Yeah, once the tariffs and quotas were removed in the 1980s, local manufacturing was decimated. Even bloody Cadbury is stopping its NZ manufacturing (so buy Whittakers, it’s better chocolate anyway). 🙂

  • Hanakai

    There is no such thing as a trans-woman. One is either a man or a woman. With their mental illnesses, comorbidities, grotesque presentations and high suicide rate, I doubt a transsexual would ever be the best person for the job.

    Basically, I hire women almost exclusively, having found that men generally do not make good employees: they talk back and do not want to take direction from a woman, and they are just not as much fun to be around day-in day-out as smart women. My staff includes black, white, mixed and immigrant women, women from different cultures, we have fun, get the work done and learn from each other.

    • Kiwipally

      Yeah, can you imagine the HR nightmare of having a trans-identified man as an employee who has fits over people not “respecting” his pronouns, let alone the sexual harassment situations that are likely to arise.

  • thebewilderness

    Given that this d00d says he has a wife I am guessing he still has his “lady stick” or whatever the psychos are calling it these days. On the other hand given how many lies he has told WTFKs.

  • Kiwipally

    Ah that one, which is discussed elsewhere in the comments. The one that is mainly about disorders of sexual development. It was one weird article. It did Nature no favours in publishing it. And it’s an opinion piece rather than a peer reviewed paper.

  • thebewilderness

    A few days after claiming this you included yourself as a male who was commenting on this thread. That’s the trouble with men talking. They always give themselves the lie.

  • thebewilderness

    What it means is that society indulges your male dominance displays no matter how absurd they are.

  • catlogic

    HAHAHAHAHAHA

    “I was already something I had to change to become.”

    What a little genius he is.

  • catlogic

    Nope. Messing about with your male body doesn’t change it from being male.

  • catlogic

    We’re not changing any rules, dude. You’re a male, a man, and will never be anything else because it isn’t possible to change sex, or to be “born in the wrong body” or have a ladybrain or whatever feeble justification for your paraphilias you’re using today.

  • Melanie

    “…Stop thinking so hard…’

    Lol, I think we’ve identified your problem.

  • Melanie

    But what is a man? It’s complex and nuanced right? What makes you any more derserving than any other male?

  • FierceMild
  • Melanie

    There’s no such thing as living as female if you are not female.

  • Melanie

    Your mum is your mum because she gave birth to you – because she’s female, a woman. That’s why you call her your mother without having to assume or ask.

  • Hanakai

    You need to show some respect for nature, science, biology and reality.

    Misgendering is a fake construct. Humans do not have gender, human have a sex, male or female, that they are born with. Gender is a silly construct created by confused humanoids to denote how one chooses to present oneself in terms of societal sex-role norms.

    Look, the transsexuals who think they are the other sex are mentally ill, delusional. It is impossible to change one’s sex, which is marked in EVERY single cell of the body. Surgical mutilation and makeup and hormones can alter outward appearance, but the truth is in every cell.

    You are the ultimate disrespectful unit in demanding that normal sane people ignore reality and buy into a twisted pathological delusion system.

    Go get help. The emperor is naked and if you are born with a dick, you are ever and always male.

  • Hanakai

    Protons are not electrons and transsexual men who think they are female are not women, but still and ever and always men. Fact: Sex cannot be changed. Get a clue.

  • DeColonise

    Nah it don’t really tell much where society has gone it just mean your friends in government could not care less over a letter on a piece of paper or in a computer system and they give you a little bone to chew.

  • Zoë Lafantaisie

    LOL

  • Zoë Lafantaisie

    WOW – Good answer Melanie.

  • Urban_Leprechaun

    Faye says “Trans women live under the same system of patriarchy as other women”. I don’t think this is so, but given feminists (mostly) see the world through the lens of patriarchy, and feminism as a counter to such oppression, could it be that Faye ‘needs’ to feel s/he suffers from patriarchal oppression so as to validate her as a woman. Or ‘I wanna be a victim too!”?