From women’s liberation to pimp accommodation

There is an unresolvable contradiction when a rape crisis centre supports “sex work.”

In 2008, Women Against Violence Against Women (WAVAW), a rape crisis centre in Vancouver BC, published a position paper documenting a two-year collaborative process between their staff, board, volunteers, and practicum students exploring the issue of prostitution. It states:

“The argument of supporting individual women’s choices pales when one considers the way in which prostitution plays out in the global arena. As a global phenomenon, it must be analyzed in its capacity to enhance women’s lives and in its capacity to end violence against women. Viewed in the broad social context, and not in the context of individual choice and unique experiences, prostitution operates as a function of capitalism, colonization, and slavery. It destroys cultures, communities and women through objectification, sexual violence and exploitation.”

Ten years later, on July 18, 2018, WAVAW published a new statement, explaining that their previous position — which criticized the actions of men as sex buyers, pimps, and profiteers of the sex industry — had harmed sex workers, that they take accountability for causing that harm, and that they now support “sex work.” The organization also apologized for articulating their (previously) critical position through written text, as they claimed publishing and sharing this position had caused harm to “the sex worker community and their allies.”

While I disagree with WAVAW’s public commitment to support men who are sex buyers, pimps, and profiteers — the organization has every right, as we all do, to change its political analyses. I, too, operate with an openness to changing my views if I learn about better ways to work toward women’s liberation. However, WAVAW’s ideological shift works to redefine prostitution from a form of male violence against women and barrier to women’s liberation into a career path for women and a service and financial opportunity for men. As WAVAW joins other rape crisis and related centres in supporting men who buy sex, pimp, or profit from the oppression of women, I wonder what “women’s liberation” and freedom for women looks like for these organizations?

What is Feminism?

As feminists, we should all be concerned with the depoliticization of what was once called the “women’s liberation movement.” Today, we are more likely to hear about “gender-based violence” than “male violence against women,” which wouldn’t be such an issue if “gender-based violence” weren’t replacing “male violence against women” as a central component of the feminist movement. As feminist women, our ability to unapologetically voice our realities, name the problem, and set boundaries is being undermined.

What happens when women and our interests are pushed out of the core of our own liberation movement? One consequence is the transformation of rape crisis centres from expressly politicized organizations — where women who have been assaulted by men can receive support from other women and where women come together to develop feminist theory and take action — into apolitical “service-providers” that are open to all.

The feminist movement — like other political movements — is expressly political, and has focused political goals. This means that the feminist movement, like other political movements, is inherently exclusive. For example, a group of hotel workers who are organizing for better working conditions would not include hotel management or the hotel owners in their political movement. Yet, women’s rape crisis centres are pressured to include services for everyone.

This is not to say that service delivery isn’t necessary — it certainly is. Supporting women who have been assaulted by men with a safe place to go, accompaniment to the hospital, and a variety of other important services such as counselling, transportation, housing assistance, and advocacy are just some examples of assistance that is absolutely critical in the struggle for women’s liberation. The difficulty lies in finding the funding, time, and energy to offer these short-term supports while simultaneously working toward a long-term goal of ending patriarchy, racism, and capitalism. The increasing need for social services tied to decreased funding earmarked for anything beyond basic services creates a challenge for organizations who wish to deliver services and develop an analysis and take action against the systems that are creating the need for social services in the first place. But that doesn’t mean achieving this is impossible.

For a rape crisis centre like WAVAW to claim a place in the long herstory of the women’s liberation movement while decentering women and including the interests of men as sex buyers, pimps, and profiteers of the global sex industry in their mandate is at best a misguided position and, at worst, a purposeful attempt to individualize, ahistorcize, depoliticize, and redefine feminism as an inclusive, trendy, profitable brand that is about supporting men’s entitlement to sex on demand and accommodating men’s feelings and desires above all others.

In patriarchy, men as a sex class have power and privilege and women as a sex class do not. A rape crisis centre that supports women and girls in prostitution while simultaneously affirming men’s entitlement to sex on demand and the immense profit generated by that demand runs counter to feminism’s focused political goals to end patriarchy and liberate all women from male domination. Supporting women and girls in prostitution and opposing men’s entitlement to sex with whoever, whenever, wherever, and however they want, is a feminist position that can provide services and recognize and challenge misogynist systems and their underlying ideologies.

Sex as Work

“I want to bring us back to basics. Prostitution: what is it? It is the use of a woman’s body for sex by a man, he pays money, he does what he wants. The minute you move away from what it really is, you move away from prostitution into the world of ideas. You will feel better; you will have a better time; it is more fun; there is plenty to discuss, but you will be discussing ideas, not prostitution. Prostitution is not an idea. It is the mouth, the vagina, the rectum, penetrated usually by a penis, sometimes hands, sometimes objects, by one man and then another and then another and then another and then another. That’s what it is”

Andrea Dworkin

There is an unresolvable contradiction when a rape crisis centre supports “sex work.” One might assume that a rape crisis centre would challenge male entitlement to the bodies of women and girls — whether that entitlement takes the form of sexual harassment on the street; fathers who molest their daughters; or men who beat, rape, and kill the women they claim to love. Male entitlement to sexual access to women and girls is a pillar of misogyny and patriarchy — what has now been termed “rape culture.” Without male entitlement to the bodies of women and girls, prostitution would not exist.

While rape crisis centres that support the system of prostitution may believe the message they are sending is progressive and inclusive, the message actually being sent is: male entitlement to sexually access the bodies of women and girls is not ok unless you pay for it.

Supporting “sex work” as an occupation means supporting and affirming male entitlement. Supporting “sex work” means supporting the ideologies and corresponding behaviours of men who buy sex, pimp, and profit off of women.

One of these men is the self-proclaimed “Trump of Pahrump,” Nevada pimp Dennis Hof. Hof has recently entered politics, and explains:

“It’s all because Donald Trump was the Christopher Columbus for me. He found the way I jumped on it.”

The now 71-year-old Hof has stated he prefers to engage in sex acts with young women between the ages of 18 – 25 years old and only has sex with “pros.”  As Hof’s longtime assistant, Judy Gloria, was quoted as saying in his 2015 autobiography, The Art of the Pimp, “Every time he hired a new girl for the ranch, he had to test her out.” Hof’s words and actions demonstrate very clearly what men who benefit from the sex industry think about women. To these men, women are not human; rather, we are objects to be used to satisfy their sexual and/or financial demands.

Another man who benefits from a “sex work” ideology is Judge David Ramsey. Ramsey sexually assaulted and paid for sex acts from Indigenous girls, some of whom had appeared before him in his court. He pleaded guilty to sexual assault causing bodily harm, breach of trust, and buying sex from minors. But if Ramsey had bought sex from these Indigenous girls the day after they turned 18, how would a rape crisis centre that supports “sex work” respond? Ramsey would simply be another “client” seeking the services of a sex worker after a hard day at the office.

And what about Daniel Holtzclaw, the former Oklahoma City police officer who used his position of power to target and coerce sex acts from black women, many of whom were criminalized, living in poverty, and had histories of struggles with drug addiction and prostitution? If Holtzclaw had used cash to coerce the women into sex acts with him instead of (or in addition to, if they “consented”) threatening them with outstanding warrants, the presence of his gun, or other means, would this have then been acceptable? Holtzclaw would simply be another “client” seeking the services of a sex worker after a hard day on the job.

In these scenarios, the racist patriarchy is in plain view — it is undeniable that the ideologies and actions of these men are unacceptable. But when a rape crisis centre supports “sex work,” it becomes more difficult to label these men’s beliefs and actions as unacceptable — what we would think is a very clear line between behavior that is harmful and behavior that is not becomes unclear.

What is certain is that the underlying entitlement of Hof, Ramsey, and Holtzclaw to sexually access the bodies of women and teenage girls is the same entitlement that fuels the sex industry. It is unclear how a rape crisis centre that supports “sex work” would respond to millionaires, judges, and policemen — men with very obvious power and privilege — seeking out young, marginalized women of colour in order to pay them to engage in sex acts. Whether the men who are sex buyers, pimps, and profiteers hold occupational status or immense amounts of power and wealth is irrelevant — the ideologies are the same, the entitlement is the same, and the behaviours are the same. The stark inequality in these situations is only more glaringly apparent and less easy to ignore.

Some Questions

When rape crisis centres buy into the idea that sex can be work — a job, an occupational opportunity — the contradictions continue. If we frame engaging in sex acts as an occupation available to women, the question follows: what does going to work and not wanting to perform the job’s occupational duties, but doing them anyways (as so many of us do), mean when the occupational duty is engaging in sex acts? Is engaging in undesired sex acts with men harmful for women?

For a rape crisis centre that supports “sex work,” the message is a resounding “no”: a woman who is coerced or forced to engage in unwanted sex acts with a man, as long as she is compensated financially or otherwise, is not harmed. However, a woman who is coerced or forced to engage in unwanted sex acts with a man, but is not compensated financially or otherwise, is harmed.

In reality, whether compensated or not, a woman who is being coerced or forced by a man to engage in sex acts she does not want (with that man, or in that way, or in that place, or at that moment) is being harmed. Sexual assault hurts women, whether or not there is additional violence (such as punching, stabbing, or strangulation) committed beyond the horrific violation of her boundaries and the assault on her body. “Sex work” is, therefore, the only occupation wherein a woman who does not want to perform her job duties with a particular “client,” in a particular way, in a particular place, at a particular time, but does so anyways as she is required to do as part of her work, is sexually assaulted. To claim that engaging in numerous unwanted sex acts with men is not harmful is particularly troublesome coming from a rape crisis centre that supports victims of sexual assault. Additionally, what legislative consequences could result in claiming that engaging in unwanted sex acts — sexual assault — is not harmful to women?

When men like Hof, Ramsey, and Holtzclaw benefit or would benefit from a rape crisis centre that, knowingly or unknowingly, supports their misogynist, racist, and classist ideologies and corresponding behaviours, something is amiss. I would hope that rape crisis centres in particular would operate in a woman-centered, feminist way, and stand against men who feel entitled to sex on demand and who coerce or force unwanted sex acts on women, despite the fact that taking this position is often misunderstood, purposefully misrepresented, and very unpopular.

It is entirely possible — and, I would argue, responsible and necessary — to make a distinction between women and girls in prostitution and the men who buy, sell, and profit from women in the sex industry. Working with women who decide to stay in prostitution, to leave prostitution, or to move in and out of prostitution is not in question — of course these women, like all women, deserve support, when requested, and understanding that, as women, we all do the best that we can in the situations we are in. What is in question is the acceptance and normalization of this situation and delivering services with a goal of helping women to cope better and to better accommodate the patriarchal, racist, and capitalist culture we live in. To meet women where they’re at and leave them there sends the message that we can’t reimagine, take down, and rebuild the systems that harm us, so we might as well give up and accept conditions as they are, and not dare hope for something better.

I will not apologize for saying and writing that prostitution is a form of male violence against women and girls that should be abolished. The 2008 report that WAVAW apologized for includes mentions of groups and organizations I have been a part of and women I have worked with. It referenced connections between prostitution and the colonization of Indigenous women, and prostitution and the enslavement and rape of black women. I need to say that I am appalled that a rape crisis centre would apologize for and state that these analyses are causing harm. Yes, read, learn, question, challenge, and discuss the issues at hand when developing or reevaluating a public political decision. Change your position and change your visions, but do not apologize for engaging in well-reasoned critiques of prostitution as functions of racism and colonization. Do challenge and disagree with this position — I’m interested to engage with the information that changed WAVAW’s position, as perhaps I and others can learn from this information as well. But do not dare apologize for associating yourselves with my ideas and the ideas of other Indigenous women and women of colour, and do not insinuate, by your apology, that myself and other women should apologize for the “harm” we are supposedly causing with the feminist analyses we have developed and communicated in our writings.

In Conclusion

Challenging male entitlement to women’s bodies, challenging men’s accumulation of wealth from selling women’s bodies, and challenging the system of prostitution does not cause harm. The men who buy sex from women, sexually harass women on the street or on the job (feminist lawyer, Janine Benedet, has asked, pointedly, how workplace sexual harassment laws apply to sex work), and the men who are making millions off our objectification and the sexualization of our dehumanization are the ones causing harm and are the ones who ultimately benefit from sex as work. We need to ask hard questions when discussing this issue, such as: Does men purchasing sex acts from women work toward women’s liberation and the end of patriarchy? Does men purchasing sex acts from Indigenous women in Canada contribute to a process of decolonization? Are men entitled to sex whenever, however, wherever, and with whoever they want? Does this change if they can pay for it?

Centering women in feminism, imagining and working toward the end of patriarchy, and challenging a billion-dollar assault on women that is so ingrained in our culture that rape crisis centres refuse to challenge male entitlement to sex on demand — as long as its paid for — is not easy, especially today. But feminism is not easy, and that’s the point of it. If it were, we wouldn’t need it at all.

Cherry Smiley
Cherry Smiley

Cherry Smiley is a Nlaka’pamux and Diné feminist who refuses to be silent.

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  • Ashley Braman

    With real jobs you dont get your vagina ripped open… They even say giving birth and having a kid isnt a job… Yet its a job to have sex to make a person? And um excuse me but why is it a 13 year old child would get more money then a 73 year old womxxn. When it comes to ACTUAL JOBS you get promoted the longer you work…. So how is this an actual job? And also…. They want to make ptsd and pregnanct and birth preexisting conditions. So what about these sex trafficking victims getting raped bc that causes ptsd..

    • TwinMamaManly

      Did Trump succeed in making rape/sexual assault/sexual abuse a pre-existing condition?

    • northernTNT

      Soon vagina work will be work in Canada. IVF, “fertility” treatments, fake uteri, ova sales, sperm sales, surrogacy.
      They call it job creation, gotta make the wheels of capitalism churn out for need and more profit.

  • Tobysgirl

    This is the essence of neoliberal feminism: “to individualize, ahistorcize, depoliticize, and redefine feminism as an inclusive, trendy, profitable BRAND that is about supporting men’s entitlement to sex on demand and accommodating men’s feelings and desires above all others” [my emphasis]. Excellent essay and that single statement says so much about our society. Someone said millennials do not care about products — in other words, actual material reality such as antiques used by one’s family for 200+ years — but they do care about services. I amended that statement to say they care about BRANDS. Brands are all, brands are everything, and one can see this played out in the way Smiley so aptly summarizes, and also in the embrace of trans and queer and nonbinary, which are, after all, just a bunch of brands.

  • Zoë Lafantaisie

    Thank you so much for this brilliant work!

  • TwinMamaManly

    This is what happens when the “special snowflake” generation grow up – whatever they think or say or do is to be taken seriously, lest they feel “emotionally unsafe” and their feelings aren’t “validated”.

  • Jani

    The people who seem to being making the noise about “white feminism” tend to be white bratty privileged princesses. I was quite disturbed by a (white, presumably privileged, presumably educated) woman saying that to be “pro choice” was outdated (!!!!) and that the generation who advocated for safe and legal access to abortion in the second wave weren’t this or weren’t that, and considering the anti abortion lobby in North America, the attempts to make abortion illegal and the lack of access to clinics in some states, threats to doctors and surgeons, etc etc, I would say to that young woman “don’t criticise those women for making it possible for women to have that choice, because what you take for granted today won’t necessarily be there tomorrow. In the UK, abortion was made legal in 1967 and is available under the NHS at no cost, and we don’t have a strong anti abortion lobby that has any sort of political power. Not so in North America.

    Yes, there are huge correlations with the sex trade and racism and poverty. It’s no surprise that the major sex tourism destinations are very poor third world countries. In wealthy nations the women and girls are trafficked from third world countries and forced to work in prostitution. I read of one writer who saw the parallels between BDSM and her great grandmother’s descriptions of being shackled as a slave, which also begs the question about where these ideas of torture and restraint came from. Meanwhile these third wave faux fun feminists are describing this pain and degradation as “sex positive” and shit like that. They are the ones who should be learning about the true meaning of “intersectional” feminism.

  • Karla Gjini

    I’m so grateful you wrote this. The idea that an organization that is working to end violence against women could submit to the sexual exploitation industry so publicly is so frustrating and sad. Thank you for not being silent!

  • Meghan Murphy

    omg nooooo most women do not ‘date’ like this. I am having a hard time believing even *your* story is true, tbh. But trust me, I know a LOT of women who date and have dated (and I know me!), and NONE of them behave in this way good god.

  • Meghan Murphy

    We oppose all prostitution, yes. Female buyers are a very, very tiny minority, of course.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I have never heard of a ‘Men’s Liberation Movement’….?

    You are exactly right that MRAs have invented a strawman version of feminism to hate/tear down/mock. This is part of the reason why it’s impossible to take them seriously. They don’t understand feminism or what feminists actually do/say. For example, these dudes are constantly calling me a ‘third wave feminist’ and I have to tell them, actually, I have criticized the third wave from the getgo. It just makes them look dumb.

    • Robert Lindsay

      Actually I hate all of the Manosphere. The MGTOW’s are so misogynistic than they are almost insane.

      The MRA’s are mostly just idiots, but they’re reactionary and their views on feminism are stupid. Their misogyny levels vary a lot, and some are not misogynistic at all. Mostly they are just fanatics.

      PUA/Game is a great idea and a lot of what they say is true. What’s wrong with showing men how to get women or get a girlfriend? Game is supposedly manipulative but it needn’t be that. A lot of Game is also about relationships – Married Man’s Game, etc. Some of that is quite reasonable.

      Ideally it is just ways to run your relationship so you both maximize what you want out of it.

      Problem is 99% of men on PUA sites are complete assholes, and the misogyny level is nuts and offensive. Very patronizing towards women.

      I actually rather like Incels. They don’t revolt me immediately. The misogyny is not in every post they write. A lot of it is PUA stuff about relationships, and most of what they say is true.

      But the misogyny is so horrible that it ruins everything they say, and their misogyny is on a seriously frightening level. And it’s combined with this terrible self-hatred. Most of them are suicidal. An incel site is mostly just sad as Hell.

      All of this stuff could be a good idea, but it’s wrecked by the wild misogyny or the reactionary crap. The whole Manosphere is sort of a shitshow, really.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I usually just let people tire themselves out or eventually start deleting comments if they become too tedious, which leads them to stop posting. I try to avoid blocking as much as possible. Despite the fact that sometimes men can post offensive or troll-y stuff here, I often find the responses to be useful, and sometimes find their posts revealing or even interesting… I know that can be annoying for you all, and appreciate your patience.

  • Meghan Murphy

    No johns get arrested under the Nordic model… They get fined. But yes, a man buying sex from a man would be fined and the prostituted man would not be criminalized.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “What sort of relationships do you think women have with rich men? Especially older rich men and young women? The young women go for him and he buys them stuff. That’s the deal. At my age this is probably the only sort of relationship I can have with a young woman.”

    Of course these relationships exist. Some young women believe it is a fair trade off for dating someone they are physically disgusted by or would never otherwise date. This is unfortunately the world we live in. But these men will treat these women badly and these women will likely learn the hard way that these relationships are not healthy or good for their self-esteem.

    “What about Sugar Daddy relationships? Would those be illegal too? I am actually getting quite a few REQUESTS from young women for some sort of a relationship like this, with all sorts of variations – some involve sex and some don’t.”

    I don’t know how the police would track these kinds of ‘relationships’, but I suppose the sites that hook young women up with older men could be criminalized? Not sure…

  • Robert Lindsay

    How bout you don’t date either? Sounds like a fun life, right?

    • BeeWall

      Done.

    • BeeWall

      I don’t date. Men.

  • Alienigena

    All you really need to know about Richard is that he thinks he can dictate to women who women are, real women that is. He might even be under the mistaken belief that he could out-woman most women, you know, the unreal women. You have to wonder if some kind of trans-identified male transformation is in the offing for him, given how much he thinks he knows about women and how real women behave. No doubt, he can lecture women about how to attract real men and have good feminine hygiene (see the tweets of Haley Heartless, a TIM from Vancouver),

  • Angelique Nolan

    If they wish to not be declared bigots at best or threatened with violence at worst, they certainly must accept my version of reality. It’s oppressing me if you disagree with me, and I have to fight my oppressors. At least, if they’re powerless individuals I have to. The rules are more flexible if they have institutional power.

  • Alienigena

    It is almost as if he gets some kind of sexual satisfaction creeping on the women in this forum. He will just keep beating off every time someone responds to him. I can almost anticipate the fake outrage to this comment. He is one of those people for whom any attention, even negative attention, is a good thing.

  • will

    Yes, yes, we are the objects you “love” to stick your cock into. We’ve heard this one before.

  • will

    Look, you gas bag, there is plenty of critical analysis of Sugar Baby/Daddy transactions on this very site. You look ridiculous, lecturing us ladies on issues that we know far more about than you do. You know that saying “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt. It’s better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt”? You should take that one under serious consideration.

  • Agnes Robakiewicz

    Excellent summation, Angelique. And this post-modern arm-chair philosophizing over “reality” is such a load of mental masturbation, it can only come from a patriarchal mindset. We accept “others’ versions of reality” every damn day. We accept that pieces of paper have real value and that ammassing large quantities of those pieces of paper constitutes “success”. Why is no one demanding that capitalists abandon their binary concept of money (you’re either powerful because you have it, or powerless because you have none)? As always, women and their rights are the low hanging fruit, the easiest to throw under the bus in the name of what this culture now defines as “progress”. Meanwhile, the Oceans die and the Earth burns.

    • Angelique Nolan

      For sure. At most, it’s a fun mentally exercise or something to get high and fight with other philosophy majors about. It’s not practically useful in any way, particularly not for making any sort of policy decisions. It’s surreal to in a world where someone can declare a woman to be nothing more than an idea attached to a body that doesn’t matter, call themselves a feminist and have people think they haven’t give entirely mad with woman-hated

  • Vicky

    You dont love women, you love sex with women, end of story. Also, please stop your double standards. In your comments you repeat constantly how you want to date “hot and young” women. You are not hot nor young, yet you get enraged at hot and young women not wanting to date you.

    • Robert Lindsay

      Thanks for telling me what I think. It’s nice that someone can read my mind better than I can.

      Most women I date are around my own age. I hardly date young women at all.

  • Jani

    Hahaha@ polyamorous! I mean, whatever happened to just being single?!
    “Kink” is just another capitalist colonisation of sex as far as I can tell. Like all these dumb costumes and accessories. WTF is so wrong with the naked body anyway? There’s none of all this overpriced tat getting in the way.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You’re right! Sorry! My mind turned ‘arrest’ into ‘jailed’. Tired…

  • acommentator

    “I mean sex is just a regular job right?”

    I think they see it as a regular job for someone else. Certainly not them.

  • acommentator

    “What sort of relationships do you think women have with rich men? Especially older rich men and young women?”

    I don’t think these relationships are all mercenary. A lot of women are genuinely attracted to somewhat older, successful men. That comes from socialization I am sure.

  • northernTNT

    From “political” to “service-provider” is the very clear consequence of “funding” to these organisations, and people who run these organsations defending funding sources because it gives them a job.
    Shelters need to return to the oriiginal scenario.
    Who pays you controls you.
    Shelters must get away from government funding, get away from so many paid positions, get back to basics.

  • northernTNT

    Helping victims is SO MUCH LESS efficient to change the world compared to properly educating girls to get the fuck out of patriarchy. It’s time to shift gears.

  • northernTNT

    Oh I didn’t know Cherry was at Concordia. Yes, Concordia has long been a cesspit (along with McGill) of neoliberalism, with the only distinction fo being more “arty”.

  • acommentator

    “And many of those male customers get violent when they realize that the “woman” they purchased has a dick.”

    I think that is very uncommon. Most MtT do not “pass” nearly as well as that, even if the ones who are prostitutes are among those who appear most feminine. I think the men who are their customers know what they are. They are gay or bi men who are looking for someone like that.

  • Robert Lindsay

    Thank you for your kind response, Brenda. Thanks for pointing out that a lot of these murders occur when they are prostituting themselves and yes their label doesn’t always say what’s in the bottle. A friend of mine picked up a “woman” in a cab and went home with “her” only find out halfway through the blowjob that it wasn’t a woman at all. He didn’t get violent but he was pretty freaked out and upset.

    I hope you will agree that it’s pretty abusive for TIM’s to tell us other men that they are women, and we get into dating/sexual stuff with them and suddenly find out they’re a guy. They’re men pretending to be women and worse they are not even telling everyone!

    No one wants to hear this, but a lot of gay bashing is actually done to gay men who are openly propositioning straight men (like, say, grabbing their cocks?). I am not supporting bashing of course, and I have been gaybashed three times myself, once with a baseball bat! So I’m not wild about gay men, but homophobes are 100X worse. Also, how come no one talks about straight men getting gaybashed? It’s epidemic.

    And no one talks about this either, but gay men are far worse than straight men as sexual harassers, in fact they wrote the book on sexual harassment. Sexual harassment is the unspoken norm in gay male society.

    I do dislike gay men but I support them politically and even work on their campaigns. I dislike them because they have been hitting on me for decades, and they won’t take no for an answer. My reaction is similar to that of women mad at men over sexual harassment.

    Yes, gay men sexually harass straight men. You cannot talk about this either because it is “homophobic.” When I lived in LA I lived in a gay community for a while. Supposedly I was good-looking back and then had some male modeling offers. I had a couple of friends who were straight models who started out pro-gay but became almost violently homophobic over time due to constant harassment by gay men. Male modes are not all gay. Actually 2/3 are straight.

    Anyway, the place was swarming with gay men, and I would walk down the street, and all of them would be rubbernecking me in their cars driving by. I had one who WAITED OUTSIDE MY WORKPLACE EVERY DAY RIGHT BEFORE WORK. I would go to the window and look out, and there he would be, staring right up at my window. I almost had a panic attack. And he would watch me like a hawk as I walked to my car.

    When I would go to parties, etc. they would creepily stare at me for long periods of time.

    I related this on my side and got called homophobe of course, but some of my female readers commented and said, “Ok, now you know what it feels like to be a woman!” And she was right. I didn’t like those gay men treating me like a piece of meat. Now if women want to, ok, maybe.

    The generally feeling would best be described as UNNERVING which may be how women feel with constant male sexual attention?

    I also disagree that sexual harassment is driven by misogyny. As you can see, men harass other gay men worse than they harass women and gay men harass straight men like crazy. How about a theory. Men sexually harass women BECAUSE THEY ARE MEN, AND THAT IS WHAT MEN DO – SEXUALLY HARASS OTHER HUMANS? It’s a more science-based theory.

  • Robert Lindsay

    I am not sure if anyone here is interested, but I always wondered who has sex with these TIM’s?! You can Google it and see a lot of complaints from TIM’s that straight men won’t have sex with them because…I dunno…maybe because they are really men? So a lot of them are not getting many dates.

    I met one the other day though. This was a TIM who was a pure male, I mean, he was not on hormones nor had he had surgery. He was also obviously gay. We used to call these guys drag queens, but now they are transsexuals?! What changed? It’s a drag queen!

    From our conversation it appears that he mostly has sex with gay men, which figures as he is a drag queen, and gay men definitely have sex with drag queens.

    He also told me has sex with some women?! So some women like to fuck drag queens? Why!?

    He also said that some straight men like to have sex with him, always insertive anal with condom, and while doing it and after, they act like they don’t know him (he’s a total stranger to them, and they never met him), but they keep coming back for more sometimes. So these are straight men who are having sex playing the male role with a drag queen, but they are ashamed of it, so they act like they don’t know him, but they like it so they come back for more.

    If you are wondering why I mentioned male role, this is a very important concept in male homosexuality because a lot of basically straight men will have sex with another man as long as they play the male role. Use your imagination to figure that out. They are not considered gay.

    The only person who is considered gay in this sex is the man playing the female role (and these men are often somewhat disdained for this, even by men they have sex with).

    Actually this type of sex is epidemic among single straight men in North Africa and maybe in other places too. This is so because females are not available to single straight men in these countries, so they screw men. It’s also how things play out in male prisons.

    If you deny men access to women to have sex with, they WILL have sex with men. Especially young men are like this. People who hate homosexuality also hate sexual freedom for women, but they should support it because there’s a lot less gay male sex where women are sexually freer.

  • Wren

    This almost happened in Nevada.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “Equity feminism” isn’t a thing. It’s a term used exclusively by MRAs (i.e. anti-feminists…)

  • Wren

    “Funny these people so interested in the lives of these women aren’t responding to this by redoubling efforts to find safe, sustainable work that isn’t illegal for these people.”
    Yes, exactly.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Those women aren’t feminists, they are men’s rights activists…

  • Angelique Nolan

    I was being facetious to make a point.