What will it take to have an honest conversation about the root of men’s sadism?

Either men’s sadism is innate, or it’s learned, and if it’s learned, we can do something about it.

Hello and welcome to this week’s edition of What the Everloving Fuck is Wrong With Men?

I feel obligated to warn you that I won’t likely have an answer for you at the end of this investigation, but perhaps a generous brother will be inspired to enlighten us.

Admittedly, I am outside my area of expertise, as I have never orgasmed while suffocating a man with my vagina, nor have I fantasized about having a group of friends over to torture a man until he cries and pukes, all the while, masturbating and calling him a dirty slut. I have never pushed a drunk man into a room and locked the door, covered his mouth so he couldn’t breathe or scream, and fucked him while a friend watched, both of us laughing.

Call me uptight, but hurting other people doesn’t get me off — the idea of strangling or torturing someone makes me feel ill, not turned on. This seems like something you do to someone you hate, not someone you desire. And who wants to have sex with someone they hate, anyway?

Oh…

On August 8, 2017, Justin Schneider offered a woman a ride to her boyfriend’s house, insisting he was an acquaintance, but instead drove her elsewhere, pulled over, and asked her to get out of the vehicle. As she was walking away, he tackled her and told her she was going to die, before choking her until she passed out. When his 25-year-old victim regained consciousness, Schneider had just finished masturbating over her, so zipped up his pants, gave her a tissue, and “told her that he wasn’t really going to kill her, that he needed her to believe she was going to die so that he could be sexually fulfilled.”

The 34-year-old man did not receive any jail time, but his year under house arrest gave him a chance to “really work on [himself] and become a better person, and a better husband, and a better father.”

Great, great, super.

To be clear, I do believe in second chances. I do believe people can change. I don’t believe jail rehabilitates people. I also know that there are a hell of a lot of sadistic men in this world, and it is terrifying. I don’t believe for a second that a year of house arrest cured this man of his sadistic desires, and suspect, as usual, that, now, more women will be in danger of being victimized by this man. And I think enough women have suffered similar experiences to the one Schneider’s victim did — and worse — that it’s time we start looking at root causes instead of serving up ridiculously minor punishments after the fact, allowing men to continue to operate as they always have, but perhaps with more discretion.

It seems obvious to me that, in a society that condones sadism as a healthy sexual fantasy, men will want to act out these fantasies in real life. It seems shocking to me that we all at once treat choking as a fun and harmless way to spice things up in the bedroom, but also expect men not to jack off to choking women.

And I know, I know. I know what you’re going to tell me: Consent, Meghan. Consent is the difference. But I’m not talking about, in this case, what women want (or say they want, because they know it makes men hard). I’m talking about what men want. Because even if a man told me to strangle him until he went unconscious, I wouldn’t do it. And even if I did, because, I don’t know, I loved him so much I wanted to make him happy by choking him until he passed out, because anything for my baby, it wouldn’t make me come.

Last week, we heard Dr. Christine Blasey Ford explain that what stuck with her the most about the night, 36 years ago, when she says Brett Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her, was the laughter: “The uproarious laughter between the two,” she said, her voice cracking, “and their having fun at my expense… I was underneath one of them, while they laughed.”

I have many memories of young men like these two, who did similar things to my friends, or who tried to do these things to me. I managed to escape similar situations, somehow, crying and traumatized only at being called a “slut,” a “whore,” and a “bitch,” because I wouldn’t go along with the intended scenario. I got very lucky in many situations that could have gone a very dark direction. Many women I know did not get so lucky. What I mean to say is that these kinds of men are not particularly out of the ordinary, though there are many levels to the sadism different men want to — and sometimes do — inflict on women.

On June 9, 2017, Yingying Zhang, a visiting scholar in the United States from China, got into a car with Brendt Christensen on the University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign campus. Christensen brought Zhang back to his apartment and held her there against her will, presumably sexually assaulting and torturing her in various ways, before killing her (her body has still not been found). Christensen was a former Ph.D. student at Zhang’s university who used Fetlife, “a social network for the BDSM, fetish, and kinky community,” to access the “Abduction 101” forum, which includes sub-threads like, “Perfect abduction fantasy” and “planning a kidnapping.” Prosecutors revealed that Christensen “choked and sexually assaulted” another victim in 2013 in central Illinois, claimed “additional victims,” and expressed a “desire to be known as a killer.” This was clearly a fantasy of his, which he was able to indulge in and plan out via BDSM sites. Christensen was married, and by all accounts, appeared to be a completely normal man, well-liked by his students (Christensen TA’d in the physics department while he was in grad school).

Peter Masden regularly attended “fetish parties,” appeared in two porn movies himself, and sought out violent snuff porn. On the day he met journalist Kim Wall in Copenhagen, who he killed on board his submarine in August 2017, Masden searched the internet for “beheaded girl agony”, and watched a film of a woman having her throat slit. Videos showing women being tortured and executed were found on his computer. The 47-year-old tied Wall up and abused her before killing her and dismembering her body. Madsen was charged with “sexual relations other than intercourse of a particularly dangerous nature” after stab wounds were discovered in and around Wall’s genitals.

There are many more stories like this. There are the Jian Ghomeshis, who perhaps don’t want to go so far as to kill anyone, but simply enjoy punching women in the head while they perform oral sex. There are the countless young men who gang rape women at parties, because hey, it’s a party. And then there are the men who simply watch this kind of thing online while they masturbate, and maybe very politely suggest to their girlfriends that they might consider incorporating this harmless “kink” into their sexual repertoire. For so many men, hurting women is fun. It’s a joke, it’s entertaining, or it’s sexy.

At what point do we draw the line? At what point do we say that it’s ok or not ok for a man to fantasize about hurting women? When he acts on it? When he masturbates to images of women being hurt or degraded online? When it’s too late?

And moreover, where do these desires come from? Why do so many men want to hurt women — why does hurting women make them hard?

I imagine some of these men suffered abuse themselves — maybe sexual. But they likely, for the most part, suffered at the hands of other men. And many of them, of course, were not sexually abused — strangled while being fucked, choked with a dick, called a whore and a bitch while being penetrated in the ass and throat all at once. There is a reason men are doing this to women, and its not because women deserve it, or because women did it to them, and now they want revenge.

Many feel it’s difficult to explain or observe misogyny, but when you think about these crimes and try to find justification for them, it stops seeming so hard.

There is something concerning about our lack of concern for this behaviour, and how many men participate, in various forms. Either we must all admit there is something innate to men that leads them to enjoy torture, in which case, what do we do with men? Or, we must acknowledge that this behaviour is mostly learned, in which case we can stop it. There cannot possibly be so many born psychopaths in this world. (And if there are, why are they almost entirely men, and almost never women?) And considering the non-pyschopathic men we love and live with — the ones who are “good,” and who do not masturbate over women they’ve choked unconscious on the street — also enjoy the sexual thrill of reminding themselves and their partners that they could kill us if they like, but choose not to, and that the power they feel in gently choking their girlfriend is a harmless kink, we must acknowledge that this problem of sexualized violence and domination is not just a problem of psychos and perverts.

According to pornography and “real life,” men want to choke us, cum in our eyes, penetrate us until we can’t breath, cry, or puke — maybe murder us too — and maybe laugh while they’re doing it (Oh, you can’t breathe? But look how hard my dick is!), but can’t manage to figure out what on earth feminists are on about. It’s as if they don’t believe that women know what they watch, what they do, and what they ask for in bed. But of course we know. We all know. It’s just that most of us don’t want to talk about it. It’s too much to acknowledge, and too much to contend with once we do. Do we dump these men? Write them off as evil and incorrigible? Talk to them, and try to explain the harm in their porn habits or sexual practices? I can’t say I have an answer. But at very least, we need to start talking about it, and saying that this isn’t normal, it isn’t ok, and it certainly isn’t harmless.

We can continue to make excuses, turn a blind eye, or shriek, “Stop policing my sexuality, prude!” whenever feminists suggest that maybe, just maybe, turning violence into a turn on might lead men to be turned on by violence, or we can start being honest. Considering the consequences, it seems worth it.

Meghan Murphy
Meghan Murphy

Founder & Editor

Meghan Murphy is a freelance writer and journalist. She has been podcasting and writing about feminism since 2010 and has published work in numerous national and international publications, including New Statesman, Vice, Al Jazeera, The Globe and Mail, I-D, Truthdig, and more. Meghan completed a Masters degree in the department of Gender, Sexuality and Women’s Studies at Simon Fraser University in 2012 and lives in Vancouver, B.C. with her dog.

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  • nap1367

    This is fantastic, raw and true. When I first was divorced 7 years ago I went to a therapist to discuss my relationship with my ex and two bad dating experiences I had shortly afterwards. I related to her how it seemed to me that the men in all of the cases really seemed to enjoy hurting me. In my case it was mostly psychological but there was some weird sexual stuff with one of the men. She made it seem like I was imagining things and these men really did care for me and wanted to be in a relationship but were unable to for various reasons. Wrong.

    Since then I have dated many more men. There is no doubt the vast majority of them are sadistic fucks who get great pleasure from hurting and demeaning women. They look for a perceived weakness or vulnerability and then try to use it against you. If they see you are down or feeling hurt they take the opportunity to twist the knife. They love it. If they can’t hurt you physically they will try to grind you down psychologically. They are fucking vampires.

    All of the evidence both in this article, in every newspaper, every day, in my personal life, in all of the stories I hear from friends and acquaintances confirms this. Something is very, very wrong.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Do you suggest, in that case, we place restrictions on men, as well as protections for women? How do we prevent women from being victimized? Law? Ethics? Education? Separatism?

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t masturbate to sadistic porn (or porn at all). That is to say, I haven’t learned to get off on this, I haven’t been taught to get off on this, and I don’t encourage myself to feel turned on by sadism — I do the opposite. I intentionally *don’t* engage in this kind of stuff. Men clearly have learned this and indulge in it. They have been told it’s normal, and choose to indulge in these fantasies.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Totally agree on the ‘consent’ as victim blaming thing, as it is used by liberals, third wavers, the ‘sex positive’ movement, etc. It’s just a means to hold women accountable for men’s actions and refuse to talk about MEN’S behaviour, desires, and choices.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “As to sex: Probably it’s just my limited imagination, but I think if I were straight, I’d consider women as sexual partners anyway. Or celibacy. Or only one-night stands with men, and then only with men I could physically dominate.”

    I’m not sexually attracted to women… I’m sexually attracted to men… I also (unfortunately) genuinely like a lot of men. I have a lot of male friends, as well as dating men. One night stands are not sexually satisfying… They can be fun, but sexual satisfaction comes with knowing a person, learning about them, feeling comfortable with them.

    I think a solution could be simply not investing too much in men. Like, we can have boyfriends/partners, I suppose, but maybe don’t live with those men or marry them?

    idk, obviously it’s one of those things that’s difficult to extricate yourself from if you’re heterosexual. It’s not as easy for me to look at the situation objectively, because I’m often in relationships with men — men who I value and enjoy spending time with.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Thanks 🙂

  • Topazthecat

    It’s *not* natural for men to be violent and irrationally hate women,the very people they are born and nurtured by!

    University of Pennsylvania ( 1 of the top universities in the US) anthropologist Peggy Sanday did extensive studies and found 4)% of socities totally free of rape.

    https://web.sas.upenn.edu/psanday/articles/selected-articles/rape-prone-versus-rape-free-campus-cultures/

    Bonobo apes share 98% of genes with humans and are more similar to us than Chimpanzees and the females dominate males and live in a peaceful non violent society.

    Are Men ”Wired” To Dominate Women? Bonobos Suggest Not

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/are-men-wired-dominate-women-bonobos-suggest-not/571957/

    Scientists Assumed That Patriarchy Was Only Natural.Bonobos Proved Them Wrong

    https://qz.com/1033621/scientists-assumed-that-patriarchy-was-only-natural-bonobos-proved-them-wrong/

    bonobos Use The Power of Female Friendship To Overthrow Male hierarchy

    https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/xwqdnw/bonobos-use-the-power-of-female-friendship-to-overthrow-male-hierarchy

    The Behavior Of A Close Relative Challenges Assumptions About Male Supremacy In Human Evolution

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bonobo-sex-and-society-2006-06/

    what Is a Bonobo?

    https://evolutionaryanthropology.duke.edu/research/3chimps/chimps-bonobos

    The female lions do all of the (vicious) hunting.

    https://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/male-female-bci

    17 Photos Of Animals That Prove There’s Nothing Natural About Traditional Gender Roles

    https://www.upworthy.com/17-photos-of-animals-that-prove-theres-nothing-natural-about-traditional-gender-roles

    12 Impressively Active Animal Fathers

    https://www.neatorama.com/2010/06/17/12-impressively-active-animal-fathers/

    10 Ocean Species That Challenge Gender Role Stereotypes

    http://www.deepseanews.com/2013/02/10-ocean-species-that-challenge-gender-role-stereotypes/

    Of course it still never makes sense to compare animals to humans,and there are great reasons why they live in forests,jungles and zoos and can never learn to do most things people can do.

    And almost all of this woman-hating violence by men against women especially the sexualized violence like choking etc is coming from how men are being conditioned to get sexually turned on by this and to believe most women are or should be turned on by this,from typical sexualized,violent,sexist,woman-hating male dominated pornography that has been so unjustly widely mainstreamed and made to seem acceptable and ”normal” and most men have been watching it from a really young age as kids.

    • Sanday, in her own words in a later paper, clarified that she was talking about high-rape and low-rape cultures. I don’t think most of the “rape-free” cultures she looked at were really rape-free, just a lot less rape-prone, or a lot less obviously rapey.

      Also, I think we’re probably more closely related to chimps than bonobos, or equally related, not more related to bonobos. But their society is interesting, isn’t it?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Thanks Henrie!

  • Meghan Murphy

    I’ve been told by some Indigenous feminists that there were communities wherein there was no rape? Could be wrong, I suppose.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Weeeeelll, it makes it more difficult to avoid tolerating male behaviour….

  • Meghan Murphy

    That’s not what I said. I am not necessarily opposed to women hitting men, especially if those men deserve it. I was talking about feeling turned on or enjoying choking or torturing another person.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t generally enjoy living with other people, so it’s easier for me to avoid living with a man… I mean, it’s not off the table. Maybe when I’m older and have access to more space and have known a man for long enough to know that he isn’t going to be abusive.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Right! I don’t *care* if she wants it. A man can easily say, “No, I don’t feel comfortable doing that.” Indeed, I know plenty of men who *would* say this if a woman asked him to abuse her in bed.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Lucky we have a comment section to discuss further! 🙂

  • Meghan Murphy

    “Knowing the cause is essential for an effective solution.”

    I agree. This is also what radical feminism does — it aims to get at the root, not to just treat the surface symptoms. We need to understand the why in order to address a problem in a holistic and effective way.

    How do we stop violence before it happens if we don’t start at the beginning? At socialization? At how children are raised and what kind of behaviour is modeled to them?

  • Meghan Murphy

    How do you stop them from doing it?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Oops I guess this answers my earlier question.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Will look sorry!

    • Thanks! Looks like it disappeared. Ah well. Can’t win ’em all 🙂

  • Meghan Murphy

    Nope.

    • Robert Lindsay

      Yeah see. You get to hit us all you want if we deserve it. We never get to hit you ever no matter how much you deserve it.

      Think about that for a while.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Do *you* think it’s ever ok for a man to hit a woman?

  • Hanakai

    Well, there are cases where certain children seem to be born psychopaths. There are indications that psychopathy can be diagnosed in children as young as 3. Here is a piece that discusses child psychopathy: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/magazine/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath.html

  • Meghan Murphy

    “We,” as a society.

    • Atheist

      This is exactly my point. Women make up half of society and men don’t listen to us. They don’t care what we think or how we feel. Misogynist women also don’t care what we think or how we feel. How are “we” as a society going to do anything when most of “us” only care about men and hate women?

      • Alienigena

        But are we are a ‘we’? I agree that as citizens we have an obligation to support certain things (like initiatives that support families, an institution I really don’t have a lot of faith in, but I see the need to support children and provide refuges for women who need to escape male violence). But I don’t see that we will ever really reach consensus around support for violent men, because women who like men and think ‘we’ can remediate them will never reach common ground with people like me who don’t think there is much point trying to rehabilitate them. Incarcerate them, yes. Unless you can change society as a whole I don’t see how you can start to address the problem of male violence. That means you will have to change the mindsets of leaders in the media, law enforcement, the justice system, politics, medicine, etc.

        • Meghan Murphy

          Whether or not we reach consensus, I still believe we, as a society, *should* be working towards creating a better, more ethical, more just society. I think the goal of feminism is to change society….

      • Blazing Fire

        Sometimes, when I feel optimistic, I kind of assume something like this one: 🙂 🙂

        https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2018/10/news-gene-editing-crispr-mice-stem-cells/

        [Sub-heading:] Scientists delivered pups with genetic material from two moms and
        two dads. But only pups with two moms survived to have babies
        themselves.

  • Hanakai

    Many of your points are well-taken. There is evidence that empathy is or can be a choice, and also that empathy can be taught. Here are a couple of sources for beginning points:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/opinion/sunday/empathy-is-actually-a-choice.html
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/well/family/wonder-crew-dolls-boys-empathy.html

    Having long pondered the origins of patriarchy, I have come to the position that patriarchal domination of women began with herding culture and the domination of animals. Men began with the domination and subjugation of animals (sheep, goats, cattle), seeing the animals as wealth (indeed, our words for wealth, capital and capitalism, come from the word capita for head, as in head of cattle or sheep), and learning that they could control the production and reproduction of animals. The paradigm of domination and control that men applied to animals they also then applied to women. In fact, men began to refer to women with the word for cattle, chattel, and for a long time the law considered women to be chattel, property like cattle. And of course men have benefitted from controlling women’s economic production, and sought control over women’s reproduction, which continues to this day. Male religions and philosophical systems perpetuated this I-Thou split, where women and animals are seen as “other” and in male systems, there is no compassion or empathy for the “other.” Men care not about the suffering of animals or the suffering of women. Or those they define as the enemy.
    Note how men refer to women as poultry (chicks, birds) or other animals: cows, dog, beast, sea hag, bushpig, donkey, kitty, pussy, snow bunny, cougar.

    “As long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seeds of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love.” – Pythagoras

    One of the best works that analyzes the connection between patriarchal rule and herding culture is The World Peace Diet: Eating for Spiritual Health and Social Harmony by WIll Tuttle. Susan Griffin’s work, Women and Nature is also elucidative on this subject, as are the works of Carol Adams on the sexual politics of meat (the euphemism humans use to refer to the decomposing flesh of murdered animals).

  • Meghan Murphy

    I think there is some level of ‘moral superiority’ at play in some of these cases… Like women feel proud of themselves for sticking it out or something? For sure some matyrdom going on…. Of course women are taught to sacrifice themselves (their feelings/needs/desires) for others, so makes sense.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yes, too many women don’t want to acknowledge how shitty their male partners are and don’t want to hold those partners accountable for their shitty behaviour.

  • unfashionable

    “Wish this worked”
    A strategy doesn’t have to produce victory in every case to be a winning strategy. Resistance is risky, but persistence in the face of setbacks has historically been a winning strategy for oppressed peoples.

  • acommentator

    Everyone I know who reads or watches Game of Thrones is a woman. Including my wife.

    I don’t watch that stuff. But she does. So do many of the women at work (lawyers, except for a few nurses).

    So it is not just men they are appealing to.

    • radwonka

      And?

    • radwonka

      Honestly go tell these women about objectification instead of writing me.

    • FierceMild

      Patriarchy forms women too.

      • acommentator

        I don’t disagree.

        My only point was that the violence is not in the show primarily to appeal to men. I don’t think men are the target audience (though I suspect that lots of couples watch it).

        • FierceMild

          I think your sample may be skewed. Most of the people I know who watch it are male. Regardless, the sexual violence portrayed is male violence against women. And as an avid reader of Scifi/Fantasy, I’ve observed the majority of his readers are male as well.

          • acommentator

            Maybe my samples are skewed. It seems to me that most viewers of multi-part television dramas are women. But I have no statistics on that. Just who I hear talking about what they watch.

  • acommentator

    Most people’s behavior is guided more by things like shame (and praise) than by the criminal law.

  • ptittle

    Love your last line. I think that’s why I found celibacy so easy. My mind finally (at 30) vetoed my hormones.

  • ptittle

    Consider that from a very early age, we make killing into a game (mostly) for boys. Killing. Game. The concept ‘toy guns’ — why isn’t that considered SICK? It boggles the mind. If young boys walked around pretending to slit someone’s throat and squealing with delight, hopefully their parents would be concerned. But they can run around shooting people, shouting ‘bang! bang!’ with joy, and no one bats an eye. And … so. what do we expect?

    • Meghan Murphy

      Yes exactly.

  • Atheist

    Yes thank god there’s a man here to put a woman in her place and dominate the conversation. Someone’s gotta be here to defend men no matter how horribly they treat men. #NotAllMen! #NotAllMen!

    Good grief.

  • Atheist

    I hear you. I think any woman who is serious about feminism knows there has to be a point where you finally throw up your hands and accept that women are also misogynists that assist Patriarchy in the oppression of other women. It’s not even that women are dumb or unenlightened or whatever. They know what they are doing, they know they are harming other women and they are doing it anyway because they hate other women and feel threatened by them. I’m done tolerating misogyny whether it comes from men or women.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I have sex only for pleasure and not for procreation so that doesn’t explain anything re: violence. I don’t necessarily think your first paragraph is wrong, but what I do think is that this means that if changed men’s roles in society, we could address much of men’s violence.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I rarely ban people anymore… I mostly just regulate their ability to overtake the comment section by deleting a majority of their comments, which usually had the effect of eventually discouraging them from commenting here…

  • Meghan Murphy

    Living alone is great. Living with a man involves compromises I’m not sure I understand why women put up with. Maybe if he was a very independent man who left you alone most of the time??

  • Meghan Murphy

    No, it’s not a sweeping statement, because I’m well aware that many, very different Indigenous cultures existed and that they are far from homogeneous. That’s why I said “communities.” I think some existed, is all, as far as I am told.

  • Atheist

    Start by NOT SUPPORTING men in your life, ONLY supporting women.

    No. Neither men nor women deserve our support or help unless they’ve earned it.

    Women are also misogynists. Most of the women in my life are Trump supporters and far leftists who sold me and other women up the river by helping Trump take office. I’m not supporting them. I’m not supporting women who take what I offer them and give it back to Patriarchy.

    Men have the luxury of blindly supporting and defending other men. If we blindly support women we will only ensure that misogynist women are put into positions of power and they will fuck us over. Example: Susan Collins. She didn’t just vote for Kavanaugh she endorsed him in a public way. Jesus. Basically the biggest “fuck you” women have seen from other women since Phyllis Schafly.

  • Atheist

    Men are definitely stunted in the empathy department however that doesn’t mean they are unable to recognize pain or human emotion. There’s two kinds of empathy, cognitive empathy and affective empathy. Cognitive empathy is when you can recognize human emotions. Affective empathy is feeling how someone else feels. Men can definitely SEE and KNOW when a woman is in pain, but without affective empathy he cannot FEEL it and thus, can hurt women without feeling like he’s hurting himself. Sadists have cognitive empathy or else they would not know if their victim is in pain and thus would be unable to enjoy it. Animals may not have power trips but humans certainly do.

  • Atheist

    Thanks for the heads up. I don’t expect anyone to agree with me but I am suspicious of anyone who deliberately tries to shut down any kind of discussion about men and maleness in general. This confirmed my suspicions.

  • Atheist

    This is funny to me. Men insist on dominating everything so it’s men who are the ones who decide what is acceptable and normal behavior, and they constantly break their own rules. When normal and acceptable becomes inconvenient, they just change laws and rules to suit their own agenda. Gee I wonder why that is. It’s almost like you buy into the idea that men have a static standard of what is normal and acceptable.

    Yes, men inherit only one X chromosome and that is the point. Their odds of inheriting genes that assist with social skills and relating to others is literally halved. HALVED. This is not to say that men are incapable of learning how to behave like socially responsible people. They can. However they are less likely to and are less likely to be able to be socialized properly if they lack predisposition to do so in the first place. To put this another way, if someone gets a head injury, do you expect them to do trigonometry afterward?

    The Nurture side of this debate gets too much favor. Women do not have godlike powers to be able to transform a psychopath into an empath or a frog into a prince.

  • Atheist

    Biological essentialism is nonsense of course (‘men are by nature just aggressive/violent, women are just passive/masochistic’)

    No. You don’t have to think that women are passive and masochistic to know that males are aggressive and violent.

  • Hanakai

    This is the influence of porn. In the days before ubiquitous porn, neither the men nor the women even thought of choking the sex partner. Choking = assault. In the good old days a few decades back, men did not see choking as part of sex and they did not demand anal, thinking Ick, poop comes out of there. Porn has changed the sexual thoughts and behavior of a generation of males, and has created a generation of males who feel entitled to prostitution and porn on demand, and many women have acquiesced to the changes, much to the detriment of womankind.

  • I was alive when Sociobiology was published, though I was too young to be interested in it at the time and have yet to read it. I have read a lot of research on sexual coercion in other primates though, quite recently. I do wish people would actually read the science. You don’t have to agree with any of it, but at least argue about what scientists are actually saying. Some of them are trying very hard to figure out the roots of male violence. I think they want it ended as much as anyone.

  • I don’t think you can assume that not having a word for rape means not having rape. I remember reading about women in some civil war in Africa (not sure which one) being raped by enemy soldiers and not having a word for rape so saying they had “grabbed” them. Not having a word for rape is more likely a sign of not having feminists, not having rape, unfortunately.

    • Hanakai

      Language is just one of the indices of a culture not having rape.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yeah, I mean, I wouldn’t argue that professional football, for example, ‘harnesses’ men ‘s energy ‘for good.’ It’s super hard on men’s bodies (and brains — like concussions are not good for men…) and, imo, their psyches. Certainly the military does not.

    • Hanakai

      Really, there is nothing redeeming about Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy.

      American professional football is about team owners getting rich while the bodies and brains of large muscled men, often black, are bashed and mangled. It is kind of a Christians and lions event where the masses get to project their aggression and artificial allegiance to a team (which the nation-state exploits to foster artificial allegiances to a nation/government). Same psycho-energy dynamic. And of course, women are relegated to dancing on the sidelines in skimpy costumes cheering on the men.

  • Meghan Murphy

    This ‘protector’ argument is interesting, because this seems to be one of the most common defenses/explanations for men’s violence. On one hand, it’s true that men have been expected to put themselves out in front of women and children to ‘protect’ them from predators/threat. On the other, of course, today the ‘threat’ is mainly from other men, so it no longer seems a useful argument. I also fail to see how, either way, this translates into a defense of violence against women, since women are never a threat to men.

    • Atheist

      There are gangs that demand people who live in their territory compensate them for “protection” against rival gangs.

      They tell those people “but we provide you with protection” to defend their need to resort to violence.

      Sound familiar?

      • OldPolarBear

        Yes, and the United States Department of “Defense” is the biggest and richest one in the world.

        • Blazing Fire

          LOL! Good one!

  • Meghan Murphy

    If you hit a woman for throwing a glass of water in your face, you are abusive. You are not a child. “She started it” is not an excuse. Women can’t do near the same kind of damage you can do.

    • Robert Lindsay

      I guess I must be abusive then.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Well yes, a problem is that many men seem to use examples of gender roles that are hundreds of thousands of years old to defend men’s behaviour today, which I find rather silly. I think people, in general, want to feel they have a purpose in life, and so it’s perhaps easy to just say, well then, women’s purpose is to have babies and men’s is to provide and protect. But of course these roles are not actually fulfilling for everyone. Betty Friedan’s work alone should have proven that women are not in fact fulfilled by being wives and mothers. (I suppose some might be, but to make sweeping generalizations on this basis is just ignorant.) I think getting rid of gender roles would free people up to actually live a life they find purposeful and authentic.

    • Gundog

      Yes, certain things need to change, but gender roles have gotten us to this point and created a relatively stable society so some aspects have to be working. I don’t like the throw the baby out with the bathwater approach. People should be presented with and have all options available. We shouldn’t discourage what works just because it doesn’t fit some people. Again, we have to keep what works and get rid of what doesn’t.

      Also, what if those gender roles are fulfilling to a majority of population? Should we still do away with them?

      • Meghan Murphy

        Society is not stable…. Women are being murdered by men every day.

      • FierceMild

        You don’t like throwing this baby out with the bathwater because it benefits men at the expense of women.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Right yes. The level of caring about another person’s happiness and well being is connected to accountability and relationship-building/trust, which doesn’t really exist in one night stands/hookups. So, like, yeah, those can be fun, but if you think you’re not going to see a person again, who cares what they think/feel about the experience.

  • Alienigena

    What is the target demographic for most Hollywood movies, tv series and video games? 15-30 year old males, I believe. I don’t think there was a single female character in tv or the movies that I identified with as a child or adolescent which is pretty amazing given that I wasn’t that different (externally anyway) from my peers. I did read a lot. but even the conventional heroes of children’s fiction didn’t really appeal to me. I eventually found a series about a mystery solving girl who was the opposite of Nancy Drew, not perfectly dressed nor a perfect little lady. She as pretty ordinary other than her mystery solving abilities.

  • Gundog

    No doubt there are potential downsides (as with everything in life), but that’s a few examples out of millions who benefit from it.

  • Gundog

    Protectors from others competing for resources. Nature doesn’t create half a species that is intrinsically violent towards the other half.

  • Gundog

    It still has to be fun so it can be continuous. Humans don’t rut and breed once. We aren’t ungulates. You have to keep doing it to get one to stick. Plus, sexual pleasure releases dopamine and a ton of other hormones that reinforce pair bonding, etc.

    Lots of people have sex just for pleasure. That’s the whole point of what I wrote. I don’t understand what your contention is.

  • Alienigena

    “I honestly never gave too much of a crap about the nature/nurture debate”

    Just assume it is a mix with greater weighting on nurture because a lot of human brain development occurs after birth and our brains are still developing up to the age of 25, older for people with ADHD. So yes, socialisation matters. Should other people pay (as in being assaulted or killed by) for the crappy parenting or abusive upbringing of violent, anti-social men? I guess it is a wake-up call for politicians and others that children and mothers (mainly) need support in order to prevent future social problems.

  • OldPolarBear

    The military does not teach men to be good, but to conform and to kill. War Is A Racket!

  • Alienigena

    Women (by that I mean heterosexual women, I have had a few lesbian friends and work mates, but don’t really know enough about their day to day lives to be critical) seem to live in a perpetual state of judgement … of each other. Around other women’s grooming habits, clothing, shyness/aggressiveness, body structure, eating habits (whether you are a meat eater or a vegetarian, snide comments will be made in the office lunch room about your choices (mine, hummus and sliced tomatoes on whole wheat, as if my choices were a comment on another woman’s meaty leftovers, I am not a vegetarian I just like hummus), etc. For the first 3/4 of my life I sought out female friendships, volunteered for women’s organizations. But I started to become really disillusioned by the lib fems in the last organization I volunteered for, because nothing that they did (many suggested we should include men in the decision-making, remove the word feminist from the name of our organization) seemed very feminist to me.

  • Alienigena

    “So they throw other women under the bus.”

    Love this comment. I feel like I have been thrown under the bus, onto the tracks and under the train, under the tractor trailer, etc. You name a mode of transport and I feel like I have been thrown under it. Including by my nearest and dearest. Leaves you feeling mangled emotionally.

  • Vivian Li

    I definitely think men’s sadism is in part ingrained by their biology (perhaps testosterone is the main culprit), and hence many of them may have a certain degree of behavioural predisposition. I can’t entertain any other probable reason why so many of them could derive inherent joy – sexual or otherwise – in maiming and murdering innocent humans and animals, even when their upbringing and peer group is otherwise unremarkable. It boggles the fucking mind. The social environment then adds fuel to this predisposition by condoning, encouraging, and cultivating this sadism. Just think about how war, recreational fighting, hunting, and in general any and all violence is glorified. If you dissent or refuse to participate, you’re a “sissy” (an insult mostly applied to men). It’s sickening, and in this context it’s no wonder violent porn has maintained the stronghold it has. What perplexes me most is why it’s still tolerated (legally, at least – I’m sure there would still be an underground market for sick men out there). If, hypothetically, there were websites, magazines, films, games, and other media devoted entirely to whites beating, torturing, and murdering black people and other racial minorities, there would be a worldwide uprising. Hell, there would still be an uprising if the fantasized victims were homosexual men. But when it comes to brutalizing women, the entire world is in on the bandwagon. Sexualizing violence against women is perhaps the crux of the issue: by sexualizing the violence, the public subconscious probably categorizes it as a “private matter” and thus shouldn’t interfere, in the same way that if one enjoys pineapple on their pizza within the four walls of their home, nobody is the wiser to tell them otherwise (this is also part of the reason why the public takes so long – if ever – to intervene on domestic violence cases). Couple this with the fact that women are seen as public property of sorts, and the inertia surrounding the pornography industry is magnified tenfold.

  • Alienigena

    There was some discussion of whether men had a maternal haplogroup on FC’s Facebook site and some women seemed to be arguing that men had no maternal haplogroup. Well, men have mothers and one X chromosome so they have a maternal haplogroup. The amount of scientific illiteracy in the world, including amongst women is pretty disturbing.

  • radwonka

    Ah so you are useless. Got it.

  • Alienigena

    “You could have exploded a bomb next to my mother-in-law and she wouldn’t have noticed”

    Wow, that sounds like my sister. I have never seen her upset. Apparently she can get upset, as her ex-husband indicated he found her ‘terrifying’, those angry women, terrifying. I guess being a male, he was worthy of some expenditure of emotion. From my perspective she seems to lack affect. When I mentioned the concept of empathy, I had to explain what it meant to her, she didn’t believe it was a real human capacity. She was a typically rebellious teen (alcohol fueled and unsanctioned parties, drug use, teen pregnancy, truancy, running away) but never seemed to garner my father’s overt disapproval (though he may have achieved this by only yelling at her when she was on her own, he did that with me (well my mother was often there but not my siblings). I call her ‘Evil Minnie’. Until about 10 years ago she was my older sister and I had an innate respect for her. But given that she is a daddy’s girl that has dissipated.

  • radwonka

    It is still MVAW. As someone who has read FC for some time, you should know what our beliefs about internalized misogyny are. Your comment doesnt add anything to the debate smh

  • radwonka

    Lol

  • radwonka

    If all men had those instincts naturally I dont see why you dont have them too?

    • Robert Gonzalez

      He’s speshul. He magically deflects his own rape instincts.

      • DeColonise

        Not feeling that special to be honest. Either all of us are special or none of us are as I see it.

        I’m not really trying to deflect anything, sorry if it comes off like that, I was having some thoughts and ideas that popped up in my head based on the original poster that I wrote to first, that’s all. It seems that upsets you for some reason.

        It is clear that I have not the ability to convey my thoughts and wonders on this, that still originates from the initial post that I first replied too.
        The written word is not always the best way to have a discussion I noticed and it goes without saying that when one has to write in a language on is not born with it sure gets even harder.
        Anyway hope you have a good weekend and so on it is friday today after all, I guess, depending on where in the world you live 🙂

  • Vivian Li

    To dig into biology a bit here, the clitoris is an evolutionary holdover from the penis (in the same way that male nipples are another vestigial body part). Since all humans develop from the same fetal template – where the fetus only turns into a male upon exposure to the Y chromosome – the penis develops from the same tissue as the clitoris, and likewise, men have nipples because theirs is a template from the same tissue as women’s nipples. So women technically didn’t “evolve” to have the clitoris; rather, they have it because men have penises.

  • Vivian Li

    I don’t think the author is really saying that those things are “good”, objectively speaking. Just that those are the main “socially acceptable” avenues in which everyone (not only men, though they are pressured into them the most) can channel their “aggressive energy” into something less harmful. For recreational martial arts and sports (barring harmful ones like American football, wrestling, boxing, etc..), I would agree – they are beneficial as they promote exercise, strategic thinking, and teamwork. The military, on the other hand, is much more controversial. Many people (myself included) are pacifists and believe war should be entirely unnecessary in this day and age; hence for us, the military is definitely in the “bad” category.

  • Hanakai

    Actually, the most common first reaction of men to having their dicks amputated is to come out of surgery and think or say: “What have I done???”

  • Robert Lindsay

    Look how aggressive and territorial male animals are. My male cats are far more restless and aggressive than my female cats. In fact, I only have female cats now. The males are just too aggro. Most don’t realize that it is typically male dogs that attack humans in the attacks that cause the worst damage. Look at how aggressive male seals, sea lions and elk are. Look at their harems. Look at how they fight over females. Look at how territorial male animals are. Just like male humans.

    Sex with mammals is often out and out rape. Male mammals often openly rape female mammals. That male humans are rather rapey and aggressive about getting sex should be no surprise.

  • Vivian Li

    Excellent points, and very enlightening especially on the whole “channelizing” argument. Funny enough, I used to somewhat believe it myself, that things like sports would help to “channel aggression” into safer pursuits (not the military, though, as that is definitely rife with violent brutality in all forms). It never crossed my mind that maybe, instead of dissipating the aggression, such environments – e.g. in locker rooms – would actually foster and cultivate the aggression to the point where it’ll spill over into everyday affairs and relations. It would be very revealing to see whether all male athletes, not just footballers, are more prone to assaulting and raping women.

  • Alienigena

    Well, studied it but I didn’t become a primatologist though I was a teaching assistant in physical anthropology courses (taught by primatologists) during my MA degree. I ended up specialising in social/cultural anthropology but would really have liked to become an animal behaviourist (wild not domesticated or captive) but was interested more in small mammals closer to home, e.g. ground squirrels (who live in matrilineal groups). Every primatologist I encountered in my undergrad counselled against anthropomorphism. I remember researching deception in primates for a course in my BA which is a tricky subject because of the potential to attribute emotions, motives, and behaviours to primates that are distinctly human.

  • Hanakai

    Well, if one is heterosexual and a normal humanoid mammal who wants warmth and love and affection and eschews celibacy, dealing with male humanoids is fairly much inevitable. My practice has been basically to only deal with good decent men and only allow such into my life, bed, social circles and play groups. I am selective and prefer artistic or literary or musical sorts, they must love and respect animals and nature, not own guns, not use porn, be mostly mentally healthy, like and respect women and the rainbow of peoples, have intelligence & good senses of humor & a commitment to justice and be fun to be around, and they have to treat me right.

    My observation of married childless couples in my neighborhood, one where folks are liberal and educated, is that the marriages are egalitarian within the dyad and the hetero and homo marriages resemble each other. But, my observation is that when children are added to the equation, the situation changes with the woman typically shouldering more of the child care and child-rearing work, thereby losing some degree of liberty, equality and economic power. As someone who only has limited interest in interacting with incontinent germ-laden diaper-wearing screaming illiterates, it is difficult for me to understand, but it does seem that some women appear to enjoy serving children and their needs.

    I am coming more to believe that women best not live with men and it is ideal for an involved man and woman each have their own places; or if sharing a residence, it needs to be large enough so that a woman has her own space over which she has sovereignty and her on bathroom. A woman needs this to get her necessary solitude and peace, for creativity and equanimity.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Word

    • Meghan Murphy

      “I am coming more to believe that women best not live with men and it is
      ideal for an involved man and woman each to have their own places; or if
      sharing a residence, it needs to be large enough so that a woman has
      her own space over which she has sovereignty and her own bathroom. A
      woman needs this to get her necessary solitude and peace, for creativity
      and equanimity.”

      Word.

  • FierceMild

    Yes, you’re right. I meant to point out that male violence isn’t caused by women. We can and should do more to curb it, but for example, leaving a violent partner puts a woman at risk for her life and at a mark for the courts. It isn’t a matter of lean in and he’ll back down and it’s a dangerous mistake to imply that it is.

  • FierceMild

    I am certain they aren’t. In any case, it isn’t something that can be proven.

    • Robert Gonzalez

      No, we can’t prove it, you’re right. Even the most ‘obvious correlations’ do not necessarily equal causation. I agree with Hekate that we need to focus on the safety of women and girl children, here and now. There’s a clear and present threat from many men out there. But I also agree with Meghan that questioning the root cause is a worthy pursuit.

      • FierceMild

        The most interesting possibility I see for discovering an answer to the nature/nurture question are the boys who are now growing up in the women’s villages in Kenya. It’s not perfect, but it’s a start. Those boys will eventually be given the choice of violence and domination, or peace and equality.

        • Robert Gonzalez

          You have a good point there. It would make for a great study. If only some academic out there cares enough.

  • marv

    I won’t speak to any of your claims on sports and baby making since others have, but I could.

    Militarization, especially by US forces is imperialistic. The harnessed energy of male soldiers is not being used for good.

    ‘We learned that the United States has approximately 800 formal military bases in 80 countries, a number that could exceed 1,000 if you count troops stationed at embassies and missions and so-called “lily-pond” bases, with some 138,000 soldiers stationed around the globe. David Vine, author of Base Nation: How U.S. Military Bases Overseas Harm America and the World, reported that only 11 other countries have bases in foreign countries, some 70 altogether. Russia has an estimated 26 to 40 in nine countries, mostly former Soviet Republics, as well as in Syria and Vietnam; the UK, France, and Turkey have four to 10 bases each; and an estimated one to three foreign bases are occupied by India, China, Japan, South Korea, Germany, Italy, and the Netherlands.’

    https://www.thenation.com/article/the-us-has-military-bases-in-172-countries-all-of-them-must-close/

  • Robert Gonzalez

    I don’t know if you know what you’re talking about. An instinct is defined as “an innate, typically fixed pattern of behavior in animals in response to certain stimuli.” Take a Canadian goose, for example. It instinctively knows and gets the urge to migrate when the right environmental conditions are met. Are you saying that certain societal conditions can activate a literal rape instinct in men? If so, that’s a bunch of bullshit. That means all men are rapists waiting to happen. Just as all geese are migrants waiting for the change of the seasons.
    You might want to rethink that.

  • Gundog

    I think its a chicken and the egg problem. Did men become violent from being the primary defenders/protectors from animals, nature, and other groups trying to take resources, or were men the primary defenders /protectors because they were violent? Probably a little of both.

    • FierceMild

      Women don’t and didn’t need men to protect or defend us from predators. We can do that just fine ourselves. The role of protector/defender/provider is both spurious (women provide almost all of the calories for almost all societies, build homes in most and protect both themselves and their children from predators) and manufactured. This is what men want to have been true, not what actually happened.

  • Gundog

    So you are think the clitoris is unrelated to breeding? That nature just plopped a pure pleasure button on females? Why do other mammals have clitorises then? Talk about a misunderstanding of biology…

  • Meghan Murphy

    I find they’re trying to justify why they objectify women, as well as justify why, say, there are more men in engineering and tech, and why women are destined to be mothers/caregivers.

  • Misanthropia

    Matriarchy is the only way to go. I don’t want equality with males. I want to burn their system to the ground and build something new and better.

  • DeColonise

    I didn’t mean to sound like that at all.

    Having discussions in the written form is not always the best I guess.

    Sorry if I came off as that.

  • Hanakai

    Ick. You are too good to waste any of your precious time with dude like the one you describe.

    My stance against one-night stands is not coming from some place of morals and I get that young people, especially, want to experiment with and learn about their sexuality. Some one-night stands can even be salubrious. But after observing what happens, I tend to oppose them from a public health standpoint, they spread too much disease, and the women have too great a chance ending up bruised, beaten, raped, murdered, stalked, etc., especially from ONSs with strangers. And while men typically climax in a ONS, most women do not get much sexual satisfaction from the encounter. So, I think it is better to wait for a good decent kind man whom you know and trust enough to be comfortable with, or have friend arrangements, or masturbate. There are decent kind sensitive men around who genuinely like women, they are the best ones to be around and also the best lovers.

  • Witch

    The article you linked does not refer to scientific studies. Honestly, it seems like wishful thinking on Ford’s part because of her son.

  • Yisheng Qingwa

    Sex. Sports were (WERE being the operative word here) separated by sex. ‘Gender’ means nothing.

  • Yisheng Qingwa

    Yep. It’s a racket.

  • Yisheng Qingwa
  • Robert Lindsay

    The more you segregate men and women from each other, the more they dislike and hate each other. Just my 2 cents.

  • Robert Lindsay

    “No other species causes pain to its own for pleasure.”

    Really? Ever seen a cat toy with its prey? What it’s doing is it is slowing torturing that prey. It would be easy to just kill the prey right away but cats prefer to slowly torture their prey to death because it’s more fun that way.

    Nature is a brutal place.

  • Meghan Murphy

    It’s not about *me* ‘not caring’; my point is that there is less investment and less accountability.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Kink sexualizes violence/domination and subordination, though.

  • Hanakai

    No one ever signs up for something like Fetlife without some previous indoctrination, as a healthy mind does not even go to places like that on its own. Most humans are not the least bit original and instead follow tracks previously set down.

    If one’s mind starts fantasizing about things like masochism or sadism, or domination and subordination, the thing to do is not to indulge and feed the sickness of mind, but to seek help and techniques to get the mind back on a healthy and happy track. It is possible to exercise dominion over one’s own mind and to nourish healthy thinking instead of choosing to indulge in ugly twisted thinking.

    Most of what mentally and sexually unhealthy humans call “kink” these days is actually perversion, sickness, pathology, paraphilia, a twisting of healthy natural impulses into the patriarchal pathologies of the day. People who try to normalize this sickness are themselves sick. Part of what goes on is that modern humans have become numb, they have closed themselves off from natural emotion, and being unable to feel normally, and then they seek ever more and more extreme stimulation to feel anything at all. This is all part of the patriarchal and capitalistic blueprint — if you cannot feel for the sex slaves and incarcerated children and tortured animals and battered women, then you let the evils continue while you go about being an unfeeling obedient consuming robot.

    When you have benumbed pathological people, these kinds of things result:
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/11/nyregion/sex-workers-massage-parlor.html

    If one is so twisted that they cannot get pleasure from normal, nonpathological, non-harmful salubrious sexual conduct, and seeks instead to get aroused, titillated and gratified from kinkiness, what happens is that after a time the kinkiness no longer works for them and they must go to ever greater and sicker lengths to gain any ‘satisfaction.’ Look at serial killers, they start by indulging psychopathic thoughts, then go to torturing animals, then to killing animals, then to dominating human victims, then to torturing and raping human victims, then to murdering humans, usually women. If not caught quickly enough, they go all Jeffrey Dahmer and start vivisecting and eating those they have tortured and murdered.

    We really need to start shaming and blaming kink, calling the mental illness for what it is and getting treatment for the sick minds.

  • Hanakai

    The reality is that women in the military have a higher incidence of being sexually assaulted, raped and murdered than women in the civilian population. Do a little reading and you will learn all about it.

    Here is a start: https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/07/politics/us-military-sexual-assault-investigations/index.html

  • Meghan Murphy

    You are arguing people “should” feel a certain way. I’m just making basic arguments about most-likely levels of accountability and investment in relationships vs one night stands.

  • Vivian Li

    If you think that *all* sports are harmful, then go ahead. We can agree to disagree. Just know that clearly not everbody shares this view (including feminists); probably not even most.

  • Vivian Li

    Yes, to which I agree. Never did I mention or argue against this.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Apparently?

    • Gundog

      Doubling/tripling human life expectancy and plopping rovers on Mars is not stable enough for you?

  • Meghan Murphy

    “What utter BS! Women risk their lives and die constantly for the sake of others, much more than men could ever do.”

    omg seriously. Birth ffs.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Obviously I agree…. You are saying ‘should’, and I’m talking about how this works irl, often.

    That said, even if you aren’t thinking the other person as a ‘means to an end’ (this is never how I’ve ever thought about a person I am having casual sex with/a one night stand), the fact is that you don’t have the same level of accountability to a person you are not in a relationship with…

    • acommentator

      “the fact is that you don’t have the same level of accountability to a person you are not in a relationship with…”

      I am certainly not disagreeing with that.

  • FierceMild

    So men punch women because women are conniving man-punch-makers?!

  • FierceMild

    Gigglesnort

  • Djdj Jdjd

    You are referring to patriarchal complaint and male-identified women. If patriarchy didn’t exist, these women wouldn’t have been brainwashed to serve their male masters, plain and simple. These kind of women want the same power that is automatically granted to males at birth, but since they were born with a vagina instead of a penis it’s impossible for them to hold systematic power in society so instead they do the next best thing which is to appease men no matter what it takes in order to be rewarded with the few crumbs men will throw them for cooperating. No matter how bad they are, they will never possess the same power that men do in society so can’t be held to the same accountability, although in this dick worshiping world women are blamed for men’s actions all the time.

    This is not to excuse these kind of women, it’s just an explanation, and even with the participation of SOME women to the degree that you describe, it doesn’t take away the fact that these are patriarchal roles and standards which means they are roles and standards created by MEN for MEN. Taking the focus off the main perpetrators isn’t helpful. These kind of women would cease to exist when patriarchy ceases to exist. The same probably couldn’t be said for men as I believe that at least some of their depravity is biological and needs to be controlled with different methods such as with therapy and medications.

  • Alienigena

    The only way I can take your comments on this and other stories on this site around male violence is as an effort to threaten women and keep them in line because if they don’t tow the line, they will be assaulted by people like you. You have been sneaky about it but your comments could be summed up as

    “Better watch your step b*tches, you are one step away from a beating”.

    So again, piss off.

  • VY

    You’ve already lied once, as the figures you cited prove. And then you tried to get around the lie by laughing about it. Good bye.

  • Alienigena

    Denise Mina (The Garnethill Series) is someone whose work I enjoy. I didn’t know of her until 3-4 years ago but I like her characters and style of writing. Being in the UK you probably have known of her work for some time. I hate romance fiction and don’t read a lot of genre fiction of any type. Takes a special ‘genre’ writer to appeal me.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Homosexuality does not fetishize domination, subordination, and abuse, so no.

  • FierceMild

    Homosexuals are attracted to members of the same sex, not sexual excited by hurting others. Even a person so mentally under-equipped as you are must see that difference.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t think so?

  • foamreality

    Many would say pejoratively that you are creating a ‘moral panic’. I never know how to respond to such people, because I think we ought to be panicking about normalised sadistic thinking and behaviour. I never understood why people say ‘you mustn’t kink shame people’ . Why?

    Shame, like anger and guilt, among other emotions is a useful and natural societal necessity. Its a good thing in the right context and a bad thing in the wrong context. Its as if we all have to decide shame is always bad (left wing) or shame is always ok (right wing). Rubbish. I think you are right to say we need to shame those who think ‘kinky’ desires and actions are socially harmless, or worse, good for us. Thats not to say we should punish them, or have no sympathy for such people, in our capitalist society its hard not to be screwed up. And thats why we need to help such people seek treatment. The treatment is radical feminism. The result is sexual liberation.

    • Hanakai

      A simple law of Nature is that healthy organisms seek pleasure and to avoid pain. An organism that is seeking pain is a sick puppy.

      Look are your cats and dogs. They are constantly seeking pleasure, good food, a nap spot in the warm sun, playtime, treats. They are not seeking people to whip and beat them, eh, they have more sense than sick humans.

      My stance against sadism and masochism is not based on moral considerations, but on physical and mental health criteria.

  • Hanakai

    Homosexuality is within the range of normal and non-pathological forms of human sexual expression. It is not being criticized here.

    Masochism, sadism, domination, torture, causing pain, embracing pain, choking, most of what is misnamed ‘kink’, these things are twisted and pathological. Sick.

    And by the way, real feminists have no truck with the patriarchal abrahamic nasty punitive man-made religious nonsense. We are just too smart to believe in talking snakes or the idiotic male belief that Eve got humans evicted from the Garden of Eden.

  • Alienigena

    One of the primatologists I worked for as a teaching assistant studied Mountain Gorillas in Rwanda and she observed females holding an infant moving between feuding male gorillas. She used the verb ‘interpose’ to describe the behaviour.

    https://www.karger.com/Article/PDF/156871

  • FierceMild

    Did they say why in the world it was better for him to hurt her than for her to hurt herself?

  • Djdj Jdjd

    Unfortunately there are patriarchy invested women who are indoctrinated into this brutal system, especially if they’re sociopaths like pretty much all men in power are. I’m not saying that there are no bad women like the ones you describe, and though they may not posses the same systematic power as males, I agree that this topic should still be discussed as these women also do harm by aiding sadistic males with more sadism. But at the same time since they are the lesser problem by existing in much lesser numbers, it makes more sense to tackle the root of patriarchy, and since men created and designed the patriarchy to their liking and benefit they are also part of the root whereas women are not.

  • Hanakai

    Well, if you know about how women are treated in the military —- how they are murdered and raped and abused by their fellow soldiers more than women in the civilian world, why would you argue for mixed spaces?

    All your anger does is show that you are engaging from a primitive emotional place instead of intellect, all of which is only releasing cortisol and other stress hormones into your system; and your knee-jerk angry profanity reveals limited vocabulary and emotional range.

    • radwonka

      “why would you argue for mixed spaces”

      Here is what I said “I think mixed spaces can be useful, sometimes, but if the culture remains the same, it can make the situation worse (ie putting females in a closed space with misogynistic males… hmmm…)”. It is a nuanced, neutral, sceptical position. Though slightly against it. It is neither a pro or cons for *all* mixed spaces.

      Who is limited here I wonder; Btw Your arrogance shows your own limited emotional range, lacking empathy and always feeling the need to put others down and treat them as intellectually inferior and dumbfucks. Analyze yourself. *shrug*

  • Hanakai

    I would think that rather than turn women into killers and have women enter into patriarchal military institutions and forms designed by men, we would all do better working to demilitarize the world and eliminate warfare from the human behavioral repertoire.

    Half the federal budget in the US goes to military purposes, which is why the country lacks universal health care and social safety nets for the homeless, the addicted, the mentally ill, the disabled. Military greed trumps human need.

  • Hanakai

    How so? Not sure what you mean. One of the impacts of global warming is increasing desertification of the world. And the forests everywhere have been or are being cut. The fossil fuels were originally mostly ancient trees and plant matter and originated in the Carboniferous Period. I suppose global warming will result in both areas of desert and areas of hot humid vegetated land. And lots of heat waves.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Right exactly! Arousal makes sex easier (and also more enjoyable, obv). Lubrication exists for very good reasons.

  • Shannon

    Male violence against women is an international problem. While my comment was specifically addressing the US because it’s an article about the US Supreme, this isn’t just a problem in the United States.

  • Steve Law

    Aha well I agree. But HOW we do that is a different matter. I think that to a certain extent the male tendency towards violence is biological, instinctual, not just cultural. Yes men should take responsibility for themselves, but just banning and suppressing it drives it underground where it can take even more pathological and deviant forms. Addressing the problem involves more emphasis on personal responsibility and self-discipline but also on how to redirect and express that energy in healthy and harmless ways. Sport is a very good example.

  • Matthew Downhour

    That’s definitely possible. I certainly think that ‘selfish sex’ is precisely that even if it is 100% ‘consensual’, esp. for males, b/c of their greater privilege

  • marv

    ‘“Males don’t want to think clearly” because they benefit from the status quo.’

    Thanks for the correction.

  • Layla Alexandrovna

    You might find this newly established forum interesting: https://www.genderhammer.com/ . If you’re in western Canada, I could have other information for you. Thanks! 😀

  • marv

    Yes, and the hierarchies of men built the infrastructure for the hierarchies of women. Highly privileged women are usually born and or marry into male riches and institutional power.

  • unfashionable

    I actually think that compulsory pairing of sexuality with “love”, lifelong commitment, cohabitation, merging finances, procreation, and in-law nightmares is not at all in women’s interest. Besides colonizing/embedding women in patriarchy, the no-sex-without-love rule is also a burden on sexuality. I’m not a fan of “hookup culture” in a heterosexual context, seems dangerous for women. But I think it warrants consideration by lesbians. Personally, I’m sometimes attracted to strangers, and it strikes me as natural and fun and perhaps even socially useful.

    • radwonka

      You said all this just to defend sex without feelings?

    • radwonka

      “Fun” is the word people use to shame people who hurt by this but go off I guess.

  • Meghan Murphy

    This might be a bit of a derail, but I wonder if it would be easier for women to have and enjoy casual sex if we lived in a world wherein women, in general, held more power in society, but also weren’t so accustomed to feeling disempowered by sex with men, AND if sex were more woman-centered, and therefore more focused on our pleasure, rather than on men’s.

    I’ve said this several times before in the comment section, I believe, but I’ve personally had a lot of casual sex (and have had numerous long term, monogamous relationships, as well), and learned that, for me, it’s practically impossible to maintain a ‘casual’ sexual relationship — I always develop feelings, at a certain point… I’ve also found that sex is much more enjoyable in long term relationships (I’m talking relationships that last longer than a few nights… I am also, of course, aware that sex can get boring or monotonous after a few years), rather than one night stands, for example, just because you get to know the person better, feel more comfortable with them, etc…

    • unfashionable

      Your description of the many ways in which casual sex with men fails for you makes sense emotionally; and perhaps politically, although I’d like to think further about how it might be made to work better even under present conditions. (I’ve mentioned previously on FC that if I were heterosexual, I imagine I might experiment with casual sex with a stranger I could physically dominate.) However, my posts about this in response to Radwonka were concerned with lesbians, where structural power is different, although not always absent; and I acknowledged the greater dangers of casual sex with men.

      In my youth during the early 1970s in NYC, there would often be a feminist political meeting, followed by less formal discussion, followed by adjournment to a bar or somebody’s apartment, followed sometimes by casual sex with someone I’d just met and felt a connection with. Sometimes the courtship was much shorter. There was no expectation of progression, although occasionally there might have been a one-sided wish; but as a subculture, we were not focused on romance. Consequently, on the one hand, lesbians tended not to couple off and disappear from political activism; on the other hand, our political meetings were charged with excitement, and I recall strong bonds and easy trust among the women.

      At that time I could meet another young lesbian in a lesbian bar in Manhattan and reasonably assume she was a feminist. Prevailing lesbian politics of the time strongly criticized butch-femme; and marriage was held in contempt as the patriarchal structure that it was.

      Lesbian culture has presently all but disappeared, having been absorbed into gay male priorities such as AIDS, ethics-free sex like sadomasochism, and marriage “equality”. We are now poised to be the canary in the coal mine of trans activism. And butch-femme is back, along with the “U-Haul” syndrome (cohabitation starting on the second date). Lesbian-only bars are gone. Personally, I’m burned out on it and still grieving, sad refugee from Lesbiana.

      Considering that sex is political, how we do sex as feminists seems important/central to not supporting or participating in patriarchy. I’ve made myself a promise not to engage in oppressive sexual structures, no matter how much I long for sexual connection; this has greatly decreased my sexual options; but I can live with myself.

      • Meghan Murphy

        I’ve noticed this immediate shacking up thing with lesbians (and of course have heard of the “U-Haul syndrome” thing)… What is that about? Maybe women trust other women more than they trust men, so are willing to go all in more quickly? idk

  • Meghan Murphy

    Ah

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yes, I agree. This notion of ‘sex without feelings’ is sort of an odd thing to aspire to be able to do. The reason, I suspect, women would want that is just in order to be able to avoid being hurt by men. Imagine if we could trust other people not to treat us badly by having ‘sex without feelings’ themselves? I think men are socialized away from ‘having feelings’ and connecting with other people, making it easier for them to have sex with women while shutting down emotionally, enabling them to treat women carelessly. We are socializing one another into a sociopathic society.

  • Meghan Murphy

    It doesn’t surprise me… I know a lot of women who play along with and even initiate pornographic scenarios, having learned this is sexy and liberating.

  • Liz

    There is no proof the Clinton’s are involved in sex trafficking. You are reading right wing propaganda!

  • marv

    I suppose 9/11 was planned by the deep US State as well?