Today’s shameless lesbians won’t be queered

lesbian

We seem to have reached something like the opposite of a critical mass. A critical lack, rather — wherein people are looking around and asking, “What happened to the lesbian?” As we are witnessing closure of women’s bars, bookstores, festivals, and separatist land; as women’s studies faculties rebrand as “gender studies;” as the category of “woman” opens up to include anyone and everyone; and as the number of female people identifying as “woman” shrinks, in favour of “nonbinary,” “genderqueer,” or “trans,” Slate recently published a series of articles on the state of lesbianism. Many other outlets have similarly published widely-shared pieces about the disappearing lesbian.

For those of us in rainbow community, it’s not really a head-scratcher. We’ve watched lesbian culture be beaten back, redefined, and undermined — in many cases with the gleeful participation from the other letters in LGBTQ.  For lesbians, it seems obvious that this is happening because we are in the midst of a backlash against feminism and women’s rights.

In the last couple years, I’ve moved from identifying as a bisexual/queer woman, to identifying as a lesbian. I offer this personal information because, as I’ve moved away from dudes and ever deeper into community and intimacy exclusively with women, I find the opposite is occurring in the communities where I once felt at home. More and more women call themselves queer (whether or not they engage in homo sex) and are going so far as to position lesbianism as an outmoded, “problematic” lifestyle. In queer circles, “lesbian” is synonymous with second wave feminism. In a way, this is right on, as it was during the second wave that women fearlessly occupied what it meant to be woman-loving and many of radical feminism’s fiercest sisters are members of the “lavender menace.”

Queer women owe their rights to the radical resistance and separatism of their lesbian foremothers, but are embarrassed by lesbian culture and history. Christina Cauterucci contributed an entire article explaining why queers hate the term “lesbian,” in unironically self-hating terms:

“In the space between ‘lesbian’ and ‘queer,’ my friend and I located a world of difference in politics, gender presentation, and cosmopolitanism. Some of our resistance to the term lesbian arose, no doubt, from internalized homophobic notions of lesbians as unfashionable, uncultured homebodies. We were convinced that our cool clothes and enlightened, radical paradigm made us something other than lesbians, a label chosen by progenitors who lived in a simpler time with stricter gender boundaries.”

Cauterucci thinks the 70s were simpler times and that gender boundaries were not something women played with, defied, and remade in their own image. She admits an internalized homophobia is responsible for her unfair characterization of lesbians, but still refuses the term and the legacy that goes with it.

Queers hurl “lesbian” sneeringly at assigned-female-at-birth homosexual women, recharacterizing females as “cis” women, which in the twisted logic of queer is equated to “privileged women.” In the superwoke queer community, privilege is finally, inexorably, another way of saying “you need to shut up, take up less space, and admit that it’s an unearned honour to have had your life shoved into a tiny pink box.” This cannot come as a surprise, as the term lesbian has always been weaponized to silence and deride women.

In 1978, Andrea Dworkin wrote, in The Power of Words:

“It is no secret that fear and hatred of homosexuals permeate our society. But the contempt for lesbians is distinct. It is directly rooted in the abhorrence of the self-defined woman, the self-determining woman, the woman who is not controlled by male need, imperative, or manipulation. Contempt for lesbians is most often a political repudiation of women who organize in their own behalf to achieve public presence, significant power, visible integrity… And so the word lesbian, hurled or whispered as accusation, is used to focus male hostility on women who dare to rebel, and it is also used to frighten and bully women who have not yet rebelled.”

This is precisely why Steve Bannon, the neo-Nazi altar boy of our newly elected president, ridiculed women like Hillary Clinton — powerful, self-determining women — as a “bunch of dykes.”

Lesbian is used pejoratively toward any woman who dares to defy male need. In actuality, “lesbian” is primarily a descriptor of the romantic and sexual practices of homosexual women. That I even have to point that out feels like a twisted joke, but I do. Queer culture demands that female homosexuals redefine our sexuality away from female bodies and toward gender roles, those which are traditionally associated with femininity.

Take trans comedian Avery Edison, who said this on the topic of lesbians dating people with male bodies:

“Look, it’s not like I require the women I date to be cool with having my dick inside them. In fact, I’m fine if that never happens. But being shut off from the very idea of it, not even considering that having my penis inside you is different from having a man’s penis inside you? That hurts.”

Gaymous cultural icon and sex columnist Dan Savage offers this advice to a lesbian:

“Having a coffee now and then with a trans woman you most likely won’t find attractive — but you never know –is a small price to pay to make the online dating world a less shitty place for trans people. It’s what an ally would do.”

Both of the above are examples of people socialized with male privilege telling women that they should not listen to or trust their own instincts. In order to protect the feelings of people socialized with male privilege, women should “interrogate their sexual preferences” for signs of bigotry, and then bring their newly inclusive political analysis into practice by dating people who they are neither romantically nor sexually attracted to. This is quite rich coming from Savage, a man who posits that gayness is an inborn, unchangeable biological condition.

The demand for inclusion has moved from the hot take to the dating app and beyond.

Avory Faucette, queer activist and educator, who wrote an article proclaiming that the Cotton Ceiling is real and a way cis lesbians oppress transwomen, literally teaches workshops designed to teach folks how to “expand [their] understanding of orientation for a fuller and more satisfying sex life.”

Queers, including Faucette, will concede that lesbians exist, as long as they are defined as women who love other women, meaning people who identify as women (thereby excluding transmen). “Transwomen are women because they say they are and I trust women therefore they must be women” goes the merry-go-round logic. We are told that we must love women with dicks, adam’s apples, receding hairlines and beards (shout out to all my AFAB bearded Amazons, your beards are perfect) — to not get on your knees and suck that lady cock is very transphobic.

Ironically, this doesn’t go both ways. Take a swipe at HER, OKCupid, and other dating apps — you’ll find no shortage of assigned-male-at-birth, self-identified “lesbians.” The identities of these men are respected, they are never accused of bigotry for seeking to partner only with “cis lesbians,” and they are never called-out for being too “exclusive.” Interesting double-standard you’ve got there, queers.

You think I’m making this up, don’t you? You’re not alone. My female partners have told me many times over the last several years that no woman has been told she must have sex with assigned-male-at-birth women. That would be rape culture.

What Savage and the rest get wrong is that lesbians are not attracted to the sex role stereotypes (also known as gender) ascribed to those people assigned-female-at-birth. We are attracted to females. This is why a woman who loves women is likely to date women all over the spectrum of hair lengths, preferred heel heights, ability to use tools, ability to make dinner, and preferred amount of makeup throughout her lifetime. Sure, we might have a type (mine is tall women with high-and-tights who ride motorcycles and have major planets in fire signs — DM me), but most women would not say that what they are looking for in a partner is a predilection (or lack thereof) for eyeliner. This also explains why so many lesbians love females who have or will eventually transition to living as transmen.

It’s long been a stereotype that women don’t like sex. These stereotypes remain accepted today — we’re told men are the more sexual creatures, which is why they must have access to porn, why they’re likelier to shy away from commitment and toward no-strings-attached affairs, and why they rape. In contrast, women are said to want emotional intimacy, which is why we love spooning and talking about feelings. An alternate stereotype is that women are hypersexual, big empty voids that need to be filled, whether with daddy’s big cock or the fingers of the Steubenville football team. Too crass for you? I hope you’d say the same about these original source gems by transactivists:

15747773_1047531088688806_9121497672669775545_ndikesfluttershyfuck all the way offsophia bankstransmisogyny

Women are both very sexual creatures and capable of being sexually discriminating. Our sexual practices are diverse: juicy, libidinous, kinky, vanilla, stone, cuddly, intellectual, poetic, and political. They are erotic and embodied. If you think they don’t involve touching, tasting, and loving the female body, you may have fallen prey to the patriarchal belief that women’s bodies are disgusting. Queer culture makes all sorts of room for people whose sexual practice centers around wearing diapers, coercive weight gain, and Grindr, but apparently wanting to bury your face in pussy is what Dan Savage would call “a fetish too far.”

Although my lovers have bemoaned their own “internalized transmisogyny” for being unable to imagine themselves in bed with a transwoman, they never consider there might be some internalized homophobia behind accepting transwomen into every other space reserved for homosexual females, behind closing every dyke bar, dismantling MichFest, and shouting down or shunning any woman who dares to say “no thanks.”

In “Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence,” Adrienne Rich explains that one of patriarchy’s most successful strategies for controlling women’s bodies is to pose heterosexuality as the default sexuality, to funnel women into straightness and punish deviance from heteronormativity. Men in heterosexual relationships benefit from access to women’s bodies, labour, and emotional support. They surveil women, keep them from forming homosocial bonds, and enjoy concrete, material benefits from their often unrestricted access to their female partners. (Straight women: before you get all “not my Nigel,” take a deep breath and remember the centuries of lesbians who have been — and who continue to be — forcibly married, correctively raped, institutionalized, confined to nunneries, deprived of their children by the state, and electro-shocked for daring to separate themselves from men romantically and sexually.)

And while we’re on the subject of conversion therapy, let’s call “queerness” what it is: conversion therapy.

First, I will offer this anecdote: a female friend was dating the dyke of her dreams when said dream-dyke decided to transition to living as a man. This friend’s family is conservative. They haven’t fully accepted her sexuality since she’s come out, and they continue to make her feel like it must remain unspoken — like maybe it will go away someday. So you can imagine my disgust when she explained to me that her partner had made it clear that my friend was no longer a lesbian, was now straight, and had to change her vocabulary and start identifying as straight. Not only was the dream-dyke all straightened out, he expected his partner to get with the program and rebrand as het, regardless of her own sexual identity and the years of struggle it took her to be ok with it.

Replacing sexual identity with gender identity functions as a kind of conversion therapy, and queerness a colonization project of homosexual culture and the homosexual body. Cauterucci writes, “Queer people have generations of experience reclaiming words and cultural traditions that weren’t explicitly meant for us… imagine what we could do with lesbian.”

Much has already been done to lesbianism and to lesbians. Anybody who bucks gender norms is “queer,” apparently, which is why kinky heterosexuals have joined the club, and why my queer friend recently told me that a straight man with long hair, a knitting addiction, and a penchant for long processing sessions with his wife is a lesbian. Not just queer. A lesbian of the heart.

I guess the agenda of queer activists is that if everyone is queer, there will no longer be discrimination toward gays and gender nonconforming people. This is like saying that if we all just identify as men, or better yet “queer not-cis-men,” as Cauterucci turns the phrase, we’ll finally close the wage gap, quit worrying about abortion rights, and unlock our higher evolutionary level where labels disappear, making us all “just people.” It’s assimilationist politics, and it’s about as politically potent as a Mic listicle about how racial harmony will be achieved by these ten beautiful, racially ambiguous babies. (You won’t believe what doesn’t happen next!)

One thing I learned in college was that the Last of the Mohicans-type story we tell about Indigenous peoples gives white settlers the permission they need to completely colonize. The logic goes: there are no natives left, or so few that they are statistically insignificant, and therefore we can take their spaces, land, resources, names, images, stories, and culture — there really is no end to what we can take and claim as our own. The fallacy of this story is that Indigenous people are not gone. They aren’t silent, they aren’t going away, and they remember every act of theft, every degradation.

When queer culture, led by men and loyalist women, tells us that second wave feminism is dead; that the “sex class” theory is over — that lesbianism as a sexual practice, as a social group, and as an identity is washed up, outmoded, better left to the “wrong side of history” — what they mean is that there are no women (or a statistically insignificant number of women remaining) who love only women. What they mean is “get on your knees, bitch, and take what’s coming to you.”

When women-loving-women bemoan the closure of lesbian bars, women’s bookstores, and when they marvel at the disappearing butch, the prevalence of dykes transitioning to living as men, it sure seems disingenuous. If you are paying attention at all, you know that gender identity is quickly becoming synonymous with biological sex. And yet the act of sex is still physical, not theoretical. Desire is, for better or worse, remarkably disinterested in political correctness.

So those of us with who are unashamedly homosexual have gone underground. We find each other in secret Facebook groups, we hold private festivals with little publicity, we publish lit mags, we make art that serves as a breadcrumb trail into the deepest, darkest, wettest, Sapphic forests. We walk among you. But you let us know that we can’t sit with you — you brand us as “TERFs.”

But one of the big benefits of being a dyke (somewhere between the mutual multiple orgasms and impossibility of unplanned pregnancy) is that you don’t have to please, cater to, or coddle men. It’s also one of the big benefits of being a feminist. And I know that writing this article is probably going to shut down my dating life with queer women, as well as opening me up to the virtual witch burning wherein I am unfriended, slurred, doxxed, deplatformed, and worse. If 2016 has taught us anything, it’s that we cannot afford to give an inch to patriarchal loyalists.

I spent many years as a bisexual, partnering with men who left me sexually frustrated and emotionally damaged. It was hard for me to accept myself as a lesbian — hard for me to ask others to accept me as a lesbian. However, feminism means never having to say you’re sorry, at least not for who you are.

Jocelyn Macdonald is a recovering heterosexual, spinster aunt, and unrepentant vagina fetishist. She lives in Washington, DC with her cat and her motorcycle.

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  • therealcie

    For a person to tell another person that they must be okay with having sex with anyone and everyone is awful.
    Trans people should not be abused, should not be targeted for discrimination, should be allowed to live their lives in peace. However, it is horrible to tell someone that they have to be okay with having sex with a person regardless of whether or not they find that person or their genitals sexually appealing.
    I’m heterosexual. I could be friends with a trans man who has a vagina. I couldn’t have sex with him. This isn’t saying he’s bad, wrong, gross, a freak, or anything else. I’m simply not sexually attracted to people with vaginas. It isn’t in any way right to tell me I have to be okay with having sex with a person with a vagina, or to tell a gay man that he has to be okay with having sex with a person with a vagina, or to tell a lesbian that she has to be okay with having sex with a person with a penis.
    Tumblr “feminism” just gets worse and worse all the time.

    • Yisheng Qingwa

      Stop using trans cult bullshit terms. Stop it. Stop concern trolling here when you clearly subscribe to trans cult dogma.

  • Snork Maiden

    The screenshot where a rape victim is berated for not wanting to be pressured into having PIV is the one that makes me most angry. Is there anything more misogynistic than the concept of a ‘cotton ceiling’?

  • Cassandra

    This is rape culture and intense homophobia and I can’t believe that this is where we are.

    I can’t believe that more people don’t see it. It’s so fucking disgusting that it makes me nauseated with rage. My heart is pounding.

    Women don’t owe your dick a godamned thing you fucking appropiating, colonizing, destructive, entitled, malicious and colossally stupid rape-y fuckers.

    Female people are allowed to have a sexual orientation & say NO. If you say otherwise you are promoting rape culture and fuck you.

    • Lucia Lola

      YES.

    • Just Passing Through

      HELL YES! my thoughts exactly.

  • Alienigena

    It is so discouraging to hear the lesbian culture and lesbians have ‘gone underground’ and have to conduct their lives as lesbians secretly to avoid pressure from MtTs and patriarchal loyalists as the author calls them. ‘Patriarchal loyalists’ seem to think that it is every woman’s job to service males (including MtTs) or make them feel comfortable, happy. It is like they think expressing a lack of liking or simple disinterest will cause men to become antisocial if not violent.

    To be frank I just don’t like people (misanthropist), although this does not mean that I don’t volunteer or give blood or work to make women’s lives better. I just don’t trust people and don’t think they are motivated by much that is laudatory … I think that adopting this philosophy (didn’t know what it was called at the time) was my reaction to a childhood and adolescence of abuse (emotional and psychological). I mean I exhibited this lack of trust and yes, dislike, by age 12. I didn’t trust my peers or adults growing up. Peers seemed to enjoy seeing each other fail or look the fool and adults, well they were abusive and massive hypocrites.

    I tend to avoid males outside of work like the plague they are … my primary abuser was male. And frankly I have seen nothing in male behaviour (as employees, volunteers, random strangers) that I really like. Lesbians have assumed I was lesbian (interesting, sans any evidence of relationships). But sadly I don’t like women that much … too many have assumed the mantle of the partriarchal loyalist. Making me a not very good radical feminist, I really can’t forgive the women in my life who I feel betrayed me as a girl and teenager. They made me feel guilty (and wrong) just for being an embodied female. I know that is how they were raised but they could have questioned their programming a tiny bit.

    I can’t express how sad it makes me that lesbians as a group have been disenfranchised by a movement they vigorously supported. I worked with many lesbians who were involved in the media arts (though some were lawyers, academics, students, social workers, directors of organizations, artists) and volunteer (women’s centres, Oxfam, YWCA, etc.) communities in a southern AB. I wish there was some way I could express support for lesbians in their pursuit of their basic shared right to love who they love (other bio females), and be who they are, unmolested and unharassed.

    • genny

      Thank you so much for coming out as a misanthrope! Absolutely everything you said about not trusting people and why is exactly how i have felt since childhood but was ashamed to admit. I hate men because, obviously, and I’m a hardcore feminist who cant stand most women. I’ ve let most of my female friends go because they either don’t identity as feminist or are useless bleeding heart libfems. Much prefer the company of my cats, my dvd player and the radfems of FC. This site makes me feel sane in a completely insane porn and tranny soaked world.

      • Morag999

        “Much prefer the company of my cats, my dvd player and the radfems of FC.”

        Ah, we have a lot in common, genny.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yeah, I tried the acquiescing. I tried playing along, using preferred pronouns, pretending transwomen were not simply men, etc. It doesn’t work. It’s never enough. You will mindfuck yourself into oblivion and the gender identifarians will never get enough grovelling out of you, will never be done testing you to see how far they can make you bend over (sorry for the visual)… Being straightforward, rational, and true to yourself and to our movement feels much easier, in terms of feeling as though you have some integrity and as though you aren’t simply catering to male-centered bullying.

    • Marla

      “…you aren’t simply catering to male-centered bullying.”

      Bullying is one way of looking at it. Maybe it’s two sides of the same coin but what I found was a lot of guilt-tripping and to a lesser extant, emotional blackmail. When I had clearly stated I had no interest in ever engaging myself into a relationship (as creepy as he suggested it) with a trans male, he replied with a “how could you..!? You’re a natural female. You’re supposed to be a caregiver!”

      • Meghan Murphy

        ew

      • Yisheng Qingwa

        AND there it is.

      • FierceMild

        And cue the projectile vomiting.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Thanks for your allyship, GenderCriticalDad.

  • Marla

    ” Now I am even forced to consider whether men who “pass” as women are also treated as women..”

    My observation is that many trans males demand to be. It’s not just access to woman’s bathrooms, but woman’s dressing/changing rooms, bars, social events, support groups, what have you. They cry foul and imply the world is transphobic because a pair of $600 Ferragamo stilettos don’t come in a size 14 or that they are ignored by the cosmetics girl giving out free samples. It’s beyond absurd to me.

  • Reggie

    Goddess bless this website!

  • lk

    Lol at the name of that tumblr and also lol at that explanation…….

    First, why doesn’t the author want to get into it? If not wanting have sex with someone who is male is transphobic, why not get into it by giving a logical, rational explanation of why a lesbian not wanting to have sex with male is hateful?

    “It’s totally fair to not want to interact with a penis after that experience”

    I really don’t think Danny understands…penises are not something just floating out in space..one does not interact with a penis that is separate from a person…Penises are part of a human male’s body….the anonymous lesbian is expressing a perfectly reasonable fear/lack of attraction to males.

    “the fear of men was used as a reason to fear trans women”……Men and transwomen are one and the same…no amount of language is going to change that.

    I clicked on the tumblr of the moderator who answered that question and this is in his profile: | Danny | xe/xim/xir or he/him/his or they/them/their | taken-ish | twenty one | polyamorous panromantic panflux genderflux demiboy |

    • Midori

      I clicked on the tumblr of the moderator who answered that question and
      this is in his profile: | Danny | xe/xim/xir or he/him/his or
      they/them/their | taken-ish | twenty one | polyamorous panromantic
      panflux genderflux demiboy |

      I almost spit out my tea from laughing too hard! xd

  • Meghan Murphy

    Grateful to everyone here who never apologized or acquiesced. I learned a lot from the analysis shared here by readers/participants in this ongoing conversation… xx

  • Meghan Murphy

    Oh man. Yes. I’ve had similar experiences and awakenings. The number of folks who come forward privately — grateful — saying they are too afraid to say anything is amazing. Witnessing the intense, abusive, nonsensical bullying is part of the awakening, but then realizing how many people are troubled by the discourse and afraid even to say basic things about biological sex or to question the discourse is eye-opening as well. Thanks to everyone here who speaks out. It is so important xx

    • Ennis Demeter

      I always try to tell brave commenters that they are right, and that I support them. Perfectly reasonable people getting attacked on line makes me really angry, and I like to let them know they are not alone. I have only received a few silly PMs from it, and nothing else.

  • Yisheng Qingwa

    He is also a blatant misogynist.

  • Yisheng Qingwa

    “Queer” is a homophobic slur. It cannot be “reclaimed”.

  • rud

    If females and males are biologically the same, why do the trans need to transition and identify as the opposite sex? In fact, if male and female are the same, there wouldnt be transgenderism. Their theory is quite paradoxical. Im glad many people supported you after all. For me the trans mob taught me to always stay with my boundaries, as they violate them always. It is a great lesson,

  • rud

    Lesbians use vagina as a way to explain female homosexuality. And especially with the trans as they attack our homosexuality and think male and female bodies can replace eachother. But when we use then vagina, they call us vagina fetishists. Its almost impossible to explain to these extremists what female homosexuality is as they redefine and attack everything lesbians say. Very lesbophobic. They operate in a parallel universe. And then do claim they can be homosexual. These people are crazy.

    But this doesnt mean at all, homosexuality is about sex alone. Not at all. Its about the entire female woman, all aspects.

  • FierceMild

    All hail Beetlejuice.

  • keeva99

    About an hour ago I read, “LGBTQIAPK, the “A” isn’t for ally, sorry.”, and I wanted to cry. (yes, that’s right, it’s now official, kink now comes under the queer umbrella). FC makes me feel sane in an insane queer world. Thank you, Jocelyn. xx

    • Tired feminist

      This “inclusion” of “kink” is really, really worrying. “Kink-shaming” is just one step away from stuff like pedophile-shaming and rape-shaming (or “age gap shaming” and “consensual non-consent shaming” or any shit in those lines).

      For the record, I did already come across the expression “consensual non-consent” on a well-known dating app. I’m not making it up.

      • radwonka

        “”consensual non-consent””

        Yeah this concept is quite popular on tumblr and among people who support bdsm/rape “fantaisies”

      • corvid

        Having “kinksters” officially recognized as an oppressed group is great for the porn industry. It’s like the endgame of their efforts to sideline all opposition to porn. Feminists objecting to VAW in porn? Claim that some women like it, they’ll never be able to prove otherwise.

        • Wren

          This is how Ghomeshi got away with his assaults, right? Anything violent that happens to us is just consensual kinky shit that got out of hand.

          • corvid

            Exactly!

  • Wanda Henson

    Never been closeted. Never will. Been out in Mississippi since age 20. I’m now 62. Don’t be scared to be who you are. Live your life in an honorable way and you’ll always be blessed.

  • Rachel

    That’s horrible. There really is no safe space for women anymore. God. They just could not stand to let us have any mental or physical safe space could they- like jealous little kids. It’s like how in a DV situation, the abuser leaves the abused (woman) with no space to herself ever, so her individuality is broken down bit by bit, and she has no space or time to think and realise what’s happening.

    • Just Passing Through

      Men just being men!

  • Ennis Demeter

    He lost me too. He developed his dogma over the years, and is as rigid as any religious person.

  • Ennis Demeter

    I would have stood with you. I’m sorry that happened. You standing up and speaking was very valuable, even with the response you got.

    • FierceMild

      It was harsh. Thanks for the solidarity.

  • disqus_tOJLpM2W0h

    i truly appreciate this point of view! Which is why I am a single lesbian. A whole area of intimacy not appreciated or explored in our culture, lesbian or not…sigh

  • Lady Dark Helmet

    Me too… heterosexual men and lesbians are not fetishists just because they are only attracted to people with a vagina (aka, women). It’ s just their sexual orientation, it is what it is. And since so called transbians feel the same way, does that mean they are fetishists as well? For some reasons, I don’ t see anyone (except reasonable people) telling them that if they really believe that crap, they should be open to date the ones with dicks (formerly known as men) to be inclusive. Well, I know why, since transbians are the most oppressed group of people that ever existed, I guess they can have the luxury of being picky with their dating choices…

  • Lady Dark Helmet

    That’ s something I have noticed, too: everytime I read/hear about “cis” people talking about pronouns, they all use some variation of “I’ ll call you whatever you want out of respect/politeness!”. I have never seen anyone saying “I’ ll call you she because you are a she!”. No one buys this stuff outside of activists, and I have the strong feeling that even most of them are more into it to gain ally points than because they actually believe in it.

    I also get the vibe that whenever people say “I’ ll call you whatever you want out of respect!” they actually mean “I’ ll call you whatever you want as long as you leave me the fuck alone!”. As in: “Yeah, yeah, whatever you say *eyeroll*, now get lost and don’ t drag me into it because I don’ t care/I don’ t want drama!”. Which is really just a way to say that they are happy to superficially support this stuff as long as they are not required to do anything and it doesn’ t touch them and their lives. We all know that if that were the case, even tangentially, they would drop the tolerant façade in less than a heartbeat and come out as the closeted TERFs they actually are to show what they really think: that all of this is distilled nonsense.

    • Meghan Murphy

      It also plays on the fact women are socialized to be polite, to put everyone else’s feelings first, not to stand up for themselves if it might offend someone else, etc. Which is rather sexist and manipulative, imo

      • Lady Dark Helmet

        Oh, I can totally believe that when it comes to women, we tend to go along with the most insane stuff to avoid hurting people’ s feelings. That’ s what we’ re groomed to do. It was certainly my case back when I was accepting of transgenderism.

        Then I stopped because I had the ideological version of a rejection crisis, and I started noticing that when you say out loud what you think of this topic, people tend to be more shocked that you, a woman, are showing “lack of understanding and compassion”, than they are furious about what you actually say. They don’ t even listen to what you say, they don’ t care, there is no spectrum of severity about it, because you are guilty as sin the second you show you are not supporting. It doesn’ t matter if what you say is perfectly innocent or you are a literal nazi: you are a woman who has the audacity of not being the nurturing creature you are supposed to be, and you need to die for it!

        Yeah, fuck that! At least this trans-trainwreck taught me that I really needed to learn that it’ s not my job to be an emotional crutch for anyone, let alone unstable people who can turn abusive or violent at the first disagreement!

        I have, however, seen lots of men saying that they’ re willing to go along with the pronouns stuff, and since they don’ t have the problem of female socialization, and since men identifying as women are not really dangerous for the rest of the men, it really strikes me as something they do to just avoid drama. It doesn’ t touch their lives in any way, so they can play the ally part without really having to think about the ramifications of their actions and words, or see in first person what their support can bring… this, of course, until they hit on a woman, find out he’ s not a woman at all, and it suddenly becomes the most important issue ever!

        • Meghan Murphy

          Yep. Liberal men go along with it because they have no skin in the game and because they get progressive cookies for doing so.

        • Wren

          “At least this trans-trainwreck taught me that I really needed to learn
          that it’ s not my job to be an emotional crutch for anyone, let alone
          unstable people who can turn abusive or violent at the first
          disagreement!”

          Yep, and this means ALL men, whether donning a dress or not. I learned from a young age how to de-escalate men’s anger and drive towards violence by being servile and cute and offering sex.

          • Lady Dark Helmet

            Yes, I wasn’ t talking about transgenders specifically, it was a general statement. It’ s not my job to be responsible for people’ s emotional health. Men, women, lovers, friends, relatives. I can support them and help them, but I refuse to censor myself anymore, or to put up with people who want to leech off my energy and then turn abusive the second I “dare” to put myself before them. Supporting, respecting and loving someone shouldn’ t mean to give up ideas, opinions, feelings and life so that they can feel better while I wither away in exhaustion because other people HAVE to come first and it’ s my job to cater to their needs. Nope!

          • Wren

            SAME.

  • FierceMild

    You’re also at odds with science, logic, and the physical world.

  • FierceMild

    It’s just impossible. They won’t even accept that saying you’re non-binary just creates a new binary of binary/non-binary. Impervious to sense. It really just isn’t about that. They’re not being honest or arguing in good faith at all.

  • pyrite00

    Speaking the truth and refusing to let trans activists control the conversation is the only way to go. I am not going to waste my time arguing with a Christian about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin if I don’t believe in gods and I am not going to argue with a trans about how many genders can dance on the head of a pin when I know that the whole basis of their ideology is based on magical thinking.

  • Cassandra

    Do you realize at all how absurd you sound?

    • Morag999

      And phoney. I don’t believe a word of it.

      • Cassandra

        Yes. May be sock.

  • Cassandra

    Very interesting story. Thanks for sharing.

  • Cassandra

    It’s just so clear that trans functions as a way to keep females from having anything of their own; men know that solidarity and sisterhood are powerful. Sometimes it just hits me like a punch in the stomach how much men as a class want to dominate, hurt and hate us.

  • calabasa

    My God… I just got banned from “notsorryfeminism” because I posted a well-reasoned comment on an article in which the writer is talking about how men don’t seem to understand rape is a big deal, and how she and many other women would choose death over rape. When one survivor on there commented that this was devaluing her life, she swore at her and yelled at her for “shaming” the perspective of all these privileged women who haven’t been raped. She then deleted my comment (and banned me so I wouldn’t reply), also used cruel language toward me (I explained that I had been raped, many times, had learned probably most of what there is to learn about rape and revictimization, and hoped I could use it to help women in the future, and that as terrible as rape was–which I explained–no, it did not devalue my life in the least; and that the hyperbolic, hysterical proclamation of “death over rape” was as ignorant as men who didn’t understand why rape was so bad, and couldn’t she see the irony in that)? She then said she had seen other posts of mine and that I was “transmisogynistic.” The hilarity of it all is dumbfounding (would she be okay being raped by a ladydick, then, as so many of the REAL transmisogynists–that is, trans people who are misogynists–threaten to do on a regular basis to “cis” women who don’t agree with them?) Maybe she would be just fine with being raped by a ladydick. IDK!

    I should have figured such an idiot was a raging libfem.

    Yes, and the fact that “gender non-conforming trans women” with penises date solely “cis” women, or that there are “lesbian” groups in which trans members lobby for health practitioners to give lectures about testicular cancer (but you’d never HEAR of a gay men’s support group inviting a doctor in to give a lecture about ovarian cancer), or that it’s fine to be a gay man and be penis-only, and there’s no disappearing of the language surrounding male biology because it’s not inclusive…all of this speaks volumes. And yet I (and the author of this piece) are the bigots?

    And really, what does “transmisogynist” mean but that other made-up word, “misandrist?”

  • Ruth Barrett

    Great article, Thank you! Thank you! The disappearing of lesbians, lesbian culture, is amongst the issues addressed in the anthology, Female Erasure – What You Need To Know About Gender Politics War on Women, the Female Sex and Human Rights. We must expose the misogyny inherent in trans ideology!

  • Kendall Turtle

    I’m not sure why you’d be uncomfortable around a transman, transwomen are much more violent.

  • rud

    That indeed makes you queer and not a lesbian. No female homosexual wants to be in a romantic and/or sexual relationship with transwomen as they are biologically males. Good to see you dont redefine lesbian, and label yourself queer now. Many refuse to do so, making it problematic for lesbians.

  • rud

    Lesbian is a sexual orientation. Saying its not is just as bad as doing what transwomen do: pretending lesbian isnt based on same sex attraction nor sexuality. It denies lesbians our authentic selves and sexuality. Please do not contribute to our marginalisation

  • corvid

    To paraphrase one answer he wrote years ago: “some people think I don’t understand women. That’s ridiculous, I totally understand women, you see I used to fuck them!” Wow Dan, your dick must be a magical divining rod, uncovering the breadth of female experience!! How could anyone question your dick-authority!?

  • rud

    Great point! This is the problem. Transgenders dont challenge sex nor gender, they stay IN the spectrum as you say. Real challenge would be to step outside of it. Dont know what that would look like though 🙂

  • Wren

    “I see male rage and bitterness and entitlement aimed at anyone who
    challenges their entitlement to have any “cis” woman they want”

    Exactly why they also support the sex industry. Exactly.

  • Wren

    HAHAHAHA!!

  • Marla

    “I need an answer for why it is only MtF to women. It is like saying “I went through all of this work to put on a dress so I can fuck you…”

    I’d change that a wee bit to “I went through all this work which entitles me to fuck you…”

    And only if it were that simple. The fucking aspect is just piece of the revolutionary puzzle. I know I told this story before but the transmale who hit me wanted me to feminize him, humiliate, and eventually sissify him. I admit I was too naive at the time to know entirely what the last one meant but it made perfect sense to me. There was nothing, and I’ll say this again, NOTHING biologically robbed about this guy – he wanted a (younger) woman to indulge his fetish(es). This all involved taking him shopping for women’s clothes, sharing fashion and beauty tips (like I know what those all are), and “training” him to be a better women which, strangely enough only applied to being around other males.

    Naturally, he became angry when I flat out refused to nurse his sexual fantasies. The emotional blackmail and female role stereotype name calling that I was somehow not living up to all came into play as weak manipulation tactic stating I wasn’t “progressive” or “educated” enough to understand his situation, his hardships of societal rejection and how alone he was in the world. I didn’t fall for a word of it. What he wanted was a subtle BDSM relationship as long as he could write the script in order to dictate me to “play along.”

    As for the lesbians here who now feel shut out of their own support system they worked hard to create, I really don’t see it continuing on much longer under such conditions when transmales point their fingers at them and shun them for also not playing along. My personal belief after reading this his article is that they’re just tired of fighting a fight they never started much less asked for. Not to talk in some cliche, “progressive” stereotype, I don’t know many people who are gay. The ones that I do know have struggled with rejection from family (coming from a highly religious background as I did) friends, and coworkers who for the most part, see their sexuality as being a phase, only temporary which is ridiculous when a close friend I know has been a lesbian for over 11 years without no reconciliation form her family and now she is to cater to the transmale revolution paradigm on top of everything else?

    The “revolution” can cis-label me all it wants for my obvious and unwarranted failure of not living up to their standards. I seriously don’t give a shit. If terms like “transphobic” and “TERF” (and I have yet to be called that) are the battle lines being drawn in the identity political sand then I take up my position behind them and hold my ground of not being swayed of any transmale control simply because wearing a dress entitles them to fuck me or ridicule me.

  • Wren

    Any man who insists on being in women’s spaces a predator. They are very aware that all the women in an AA group have sexual trauma issues. I think we should all just accept this as truth and prepare for the worst.

    • Cassandra

      I could write a book about my thoughts about how addiction issues and patriarchy intertwine and maybe someday I will, but suffice it to say that having males in a woman’s AA meeting is a really, really bad thing.

      Jean Kilbourne has done some interesting work on this subject, and Meghan wrote an excellent article about Amy Winehouse after she died that talks about it.

      • Wren

        More to read and learn! Thank you, sister!

      • radwonka

        About jean Kilbourne, is it a book called “so sexy so soon”?

        Bc I Love to read the sources you propose/link 🙂

  • Meghan Murphy

    The solution is the women’s movement and solidarity. We need to support women who speak out and speak out ourselves. Support organizations and groups that already exist and start our own. We need to advocate against anti-woman laws and policies but also make certain we are loud in our opposition, so they know we aren’t a minority, but that there are many of us. We need to use every avenue we can: media, education, writing, on the street activism, grassroots groups/organizations, speaks, etc. We can’t guarantee that we will be able to stop the downward spiral, but we can try. The worst thing would be to give up.

    • radwonka

      yes, organization and independant media are the best solutions

      its time for many feminists to stop whining on tumblr and twitter

    • Richard Rich

      I understand. It’s only because I have come across feminists (not the liberal male-appeasing kind, mind you) who believe that they have no bearing in creating a better future because men create 99.9 percent of the problems in the world, so the responsibility lies on men to set things right. And I have taken these words to heart, even though I concur that Women’s Liberation is only contingent on women liberating themselves from this system of male dominance, and men stepping back and merely giving their support.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Well, yes, if men wish to participating in ending oppression and violence against women, they need to take initiative. I didn’t mean to say that men should step back — not at all. I think men need to speak out and take action as well, as allies. But I think they should do this by supporting and taking cues from women. I think men like Robert Jensen, Chris Hedges, Ernesto Aguilar, Jackson Katz, Byron Hurt are managing to make a difference and confront masculinity and male domination in an effective way that doesn’t simply coopt women’s work and step on women in the process.

      • Tired feminist

        No feminist has ever said feminists have no bearing in creating a better future. This is nonsense.

  • Tired feminist

    Women don’t have penises. Stop parroting this nonsense.

    • Marla

      I stopped trying to figure out her world salad.

      • Wren

        I think she may be confused?? But who the fuck knows.

  • Wren

    It’s exactly the same fear women have about criticizing porn and the sex industry, isn’t it?
    People bark “right-wing-anti-sex-repressed-anti-agency-freedom of speech denier. I’ve had people agree with me in private, but not in front of a group.

  • Cassandra

    Everyone who gives birth doesn’t “identify” as female; they *are* female. We must resist using their terms. Not scolding you–it’s just that the language around this is slippery and we can not give an inch.

  • Tired feminist

    Uh.. you do know it’s possible to give and receive oral simultaneously, right?

  • You are right, if you sleep with trans women or accept them as partners, you are not a lesbian. Btw, you cannot change your sex and gender isnt real. Have a nice day.

  • shy virago

    I printed this article and read it carefully – you make excellent points. I used to think that the trans movement was defining lesbians out of existence, but now I think it’s trying to disappear all women, not just lesbians.
    Savage tells the woman to have coffee w/ trans women, would he say the same thing to a gay men? This is just the age old male dominance, men who have the power (because they’re men) making the rules and telling women what to do. Savage, since the very beginning, has always made me feel like vomiting.

    I don’t think anyone can be ‘transmisogynist’ because trans women are not women.

  • Wren

    Cause they’re all men who want to kill us. It’s called projection.

  • Kris

    where can we read your article?

  • Just Passing Through

    Yep!

  • Cassandra

    “The accusation that lesbians are creating a cotton ceiling assumes that what’s inside our underwear is public property and we’ve put up barriers to access.”

    Yes. Same old same old male entitlement. The whole thing strikes me as corrective rape-y.

    • Lisa Tremblay

      Thanks. I agree with your comment about entitlement. And it does seem like they want to sexually change us from being who we are.

  • Cadoogan

    It’s not bizarre at all. Gender socialization leads to people believing that a man’s body is his own, while a woman’s body (unless already claimed by a man) is public property.

    Thus it’s possible for us to arrive at this absurd and frankly terrifying scenario where somehow it’s okay to try to coerce a woman into accepting a penis.

    The reason you don’t see this tactic applied to straight men is because it would fail, and that failure is potentially quite costly. A man believes his body is his own and won’t give a damn what anyone else thinks he should be doing with it. And because he’s a man, there’s a very good chance that any attempts at coercion will be met with violence.

    Bullies invariably target the people who they believe are least likely to stand up for themselves.

  • Morag999

    We must destroy the canine/feline binary!

    • Wren

      omg that’s too funny.

    • radwonka

      after all both have ears! so they are the same!

      western biology destroyed!!!!!

  • Wren

    Men are really good at using our history of abuse against us as feigned “concern” so that they can get what they want.

    • Melanie

      They’re like vultures when they spot a vulnerable woman. Who in their right mind would suggest to a woman who’s been raped that maybe she should submit herself to more violence to ‘help’ her? But it seems to be a very common thing with them. It’s so predatory.

      • Wren

        Because in the back of our minds we think if we can just please them, they will stop being violent, maybe?? It’s so hard to undo the brainwashing when we’ve heard it and witnessed it since we were children.

        But I do think these men are in their right mind. They know what they want (to abuse) and they know exactly how to get it.

  • Wren

    I want to segregate and form a women warrior colony. I’m only partly kidding.

  • Atheist

    I’ve always thought “queer” was a problematic word. “Queer” was a word that implied gay men were all pedophiles. Also, queer as in gendequeer is a weird concept. The whole point of feminism is to abolish gender roles, not reinforce them as the default and calling yourself “genderqueer” for rejecting them. Why not call yourself a feminist unless you are opposed to women’s rights?

  • Wren

    You absolutely don’t have to do any sex act you don’t want to, with a man or woman, and you don’t have to justify why it makes you uncomfortable. If hope you know that!

    • Independent Radical

      I do, but that doesn’t help me. In the culture we’re living in men generally insist on oral sex and call you a man hater if you don’t want to do it and now it seems as though lesbian woman will insist on it and call me a misogynist if I refuse it (not you, but others replying to me). That doesn’t leave me with much of a choice, does it? That’s scary for someone who doesn’t want to do it.

      I think when we in engage in sexual practices, we should seriously think about whether other women should be encouraged to do them, because what some women do sets the standard for all women. For example, some women enjoyed sadomasochism and now we’re all being expected to do it. The individualist approach being taken here (I like so I’m going to do it and don’t you dare criticise it) ignores the fact that sexual practices don’t exist in an isolated private bubble. This isn’t necessary a bad thing, since I think heterosexual women should be more open to engaging in sexual practices with women (I’m definitely not arguing for heterosexual women to be pushed into lesbianism, but I don’t buy the “born that way” idea and I think more would try it if exposed to more stories of women doing it), but I don’t want to live in a world where oral is the way most people have sex.

      Are there less degrading forms of oral sex? Sure, but I think the act itself opened the door to all the more degrading practices. Pornography portrayed regular oral sex first, then men got bored and they had to spice it up. Before pornography emerged on the scene, oral sex happened (neither the length of time for which a practice has existed, nor its
      presence in nature have anything to do with whether humans should
      practice it today, especially since most, though not all animals live in
      patriarchal groups), but was considered degrading.

      I’ve heard too many liberal academics brag about how the first victory of pornography and “sexual liberation” was to legitimise oral sex to see the act as politically neutral. If oral were recognised as degrading, throat-fucking and whatever else would be one hundred percent off limits (and yes I’m critical of vaginal and anal intercourse too, no matter how natural they are and advocate outercourse instead, though I hate the term). We can’t ignore the role that oral sex played in shifting the overall culture and the fact that the earlier radical feminist movement was doing its best to be accepted by the sex liberal mainstream of the movement.

      By the time anti-pornography feminism emerged on the scene, the sex liberals had already won that first victory through promoting oral sex in videos like “Deep Throat” (which according to sex liberals is a historical milestone, simply because it featured oral sex, not because it portrayed a particularly aggressive version of it). Had a prudish brand of feminism (I am proudly prudish and I think other women should be too) emerged earlier (in the fifties and sixties for instance) I don’t think it would be so accepting of oral sex, especially while young, unwilling women are being pressured into it. This isn’t just about me, though with everyone else defending oral sex, I do feel pretty isolated.

  • Tired feminist

    Yes, that was more of less the context. Seems to be what some people call “rape fantasy”. Which reminds me of a certain joke…

    – Honey, come on, let’s play rape!
    – No, I don’t want to!
    – Oh, you’re good at it!

    It’s a horrible joke, I know. But it helps to illustrate the absurdity of the concept.

  • Wren

    Yep, I’ve avoided socializing with colleagues because I’m afraid I’ll slip up and get sacked which is just another reason for me to be meek and silent because I have been poor and prostituted and joblessness is terrifying for me. But oh well, gotta mind everybody’s feelinnnggzz!!! (but mine don’t matter at all)

    • Tired feminist

      This drives me nuts. That hurt feelings over “misgendered” would be given more importance than the very real dangers a jobless woman can face.

      • Wren

        If I misgender someone I’m a murderer, right? It’s a great tactic to drive us out of the professional world. This is how purges happen. First they go for the academics, then after the regular working folk.

      • Raysa_Lite

        I refuse to refer to myself as “cis” woman.

        I will not. Nope.

        I was born a woman. I am comfortable being called a woman.

        But now, I have to say “cis” because it’s offensive for me to refer to myself as what I was born as?

        It’s like having to apologize for having a uterus. Just no.

  • Tired feminist

    I certainly agree that it shouldn’t be done if not mutually pleasurable, I’m just challenging the notion that it’s inherently unequal. Some other animals do it too, which suggests it can exist outside of patriarchal/pornographic sexuality. Whereas whipping/tying/choking/facials etc. would be hard to find outside of it…

  • genny

    I’m all about the collective, but individual women who support a liberal agenda and participate in theirs and my oppression work my nerves even more than men do.

    • Tired feminist

      Yeah, it’s the “more than men do” part I find disturbing… don’t get me wrong, I often have the very same feelings, but I still think we should challenge them.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yeah, every man I’ve ever been with has loved doing it…

    • Wren

      Yeah, sometimes too much. Like they’re trying to shove themselves back in the womb.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yes good point!! Like, they think we should all twist ourselves into knots because they get ‘triggered’ at being referred to by the ‘wrong’ pronoun (which is also, we’re told, ‘literal violence’), but who gives a shit if an actual victim of violence feels ‘triggered’ by there being a male (i.e. the source of violence) in her ‘safe space.’ Like, how can they not see how incredibly hypocritical they are being??

    • JingFei

      It’ really a tragedy. As a result, less women will feel comfortable seeking help from trauma centers and sexual violence support groups unless they can sit there, look a male in the face and pretend that person is female. I mean, think about all the issues faced by a female rape victim. What if that victim is a teenage girl? How can a male who transitioned to live as a woman in adulthood relate or understand in the slightest? They don’t even know what it’s like to have a period.
      It’s essential for victims to trust a counselor or therapist and to feel safe in a support group. In fact, I would say it’s a basic right as a patient and victim to have their condition responsibly addressed by a hospital/clinic. They should have a reasonable expectation of feeling understood, as it’s kind of essential to trauma therapy. You can talk to a patient for months on end, but I guarantee if that patient cannot establish a reasonable line of trust and comfort, it won’t be very effective at all.
      Sadly in the end, this comes down to putting the feelings and needs of one group over another. Because to ever admit that females experience sexual violence differently, and that their needs as victims require some special considerations (like all female staff/groups), we would have to acknowledge that Trans women are indeed different from biological women.

      …but that literally murders people every single day!

      • Cassandra

        I think it’s also about having to aknowledge the effect of male violence in general. This is another way to deny it/minimize it.”Feeling” and “identitfying” as a woman is much much much much more serious than the sexual trauma of actual women.

        • FierceMild

          Yes! And thy proceed to minimize and de-legitimize the actual concerns of women and girls by saying we don’t ‘feel safe’ with transwomen in the locker room. Which side-steps around the fact that women and girls ARE NOT SAFE with men in the locker room. It isn’t about everyone having feelings to consider and accommodate but that’s how it’s framed.

          • Jocelyn Crawley

            Important points, FierceMild. The issue of safe space is something that I was just discussing with another rad fem today. I’m thoroughly persuaded that women and girls are not safe anywhere because the threat of rape is always present when a male is present. Even if the man is not a rapist (and the odds are high that he is), the threat of rape is likely prevalent in the woman’s consciousness. Yet many feminists seem to suggest that separatism is not the right ideology or praxis given that women need to learn to occupy their space without apology and fear rather than being intimidated into all-women conclaves based on the ongoing threat of male violence. I do not agree based on the research I’ve done thus far. It does not appear that men are going to stop raping women and controlling public and private spaces occupied by both men and women such that the well-being of members in the latter group is continually compromised and constrained. This is why I am interested in separatism.

    • Wren

      Hypocrisy has nothing to do with it because they are not coming from a place of good intentions. I think any trans person that has some sensitivity would stay away from women only places. Those that impose themselves are there for the purpose of making women uncomfortable and to deny our right to exist separately from the presence of male authority for even a moment.

      I guess what I’m trying to say is that they know exactly what they’re doing and they just don’t give a fuck. Calling them hypocrites is pointless. Maybe I’m being extreme, but I don’t think we should strive to resolve this with logic because it’s probably giving them a fucking thrill. If they’re in sexual assault groups for women then they’ve totally fucking colonized us.

      • Meghan Murphy

        True and fair. Pretending it’s at all logical is degrading, in and of itself.

  • Morag999

    Oh god. Me, too.

  • melissa

    “…I wonder if there’s a generational sweet spot?

    My parents generation of men are more likely to view cunnilingus as
    yucky and twenty-somethings seem to be completely unable to have any
    non-abusive physical contact with one another through their porn-addled
    haze of BDSM/Kinkiness.”

    I think you might be more or less on the mark there.If its not already the case, its getting there.

    “There is a small cohort that grew up before internet porn and after
    women were a strong presence in the workforce that seems a little
    healthier to me”

    Damn, i can’t help but wonder how amazing it would’ve been if the culture instead started leaning towards radical feminism since then? Except now it seems an unending backlash and Orwellian doublespeak is what we got left with.

  • Cassandra

    It’s male hatred of females. This is about breaking us down. And it’s painfully obvious.

  • Melanie

    The thing is it’s not just about you and your ‘identity’. You can’t just go around changing the meaning of words to mean whatever you want them to mean, because that has an effect on other people. How can lesbian women articulate their lives, experiences and politics if the very language they need to do that has no coherent meaning?

  • Tired feminist

    I imagine. But your daughter will thrive. If only my mom were a radfem!

    • FierceMild

      I hope so! I wish I had the option of raising her with women like all of you to surround her, support her, and push her to think clearly and demand better…hell, I’d love that for all of us.

  • eRuthe

    Yeah, it’s a bit of a headspin to think about someone identifying as male at the same time as pushing a baby out. My friend says she knows lots of people who identify as male who have given birth, though. It makes you wonder what “male” is exactly.

  • Tired feminist

    “omg I feel like I’m 20 all over again!!”

    Yeah, cool story bro.

  • Kendall Turtle

    I’m not so interested in the hereditary aspects of homosexuality as I am about heterosexuality… see we always assume heterosexuals are innately true, I am much more suspicious of that claim. I lean towards sexuality being on a spectrum myself, where there may be 100% straight people and 100% homosexual people but many other percentages in between.

    We also know sexualities CAN be repressed, many women do not know they are lesbians due to our heteronormative society until they end up discovering (sometimes they even are quite old when it happens) they are, I’m sure the same happens with gay men. I do not question homosexuality, I question the assumption that every heterosexual is actually heterosexual… it doesn’t make sense we would have to have so much heteronormative pressure in our society if it was all natural, we wouldn’t need the propaganda.

    But hey I could be wrong and I’m open to further discussion 🙂

  • Fanny

    Once again, I’m pretty sure the opposite won’t be seen as a problem ; who would blame a gay guy for not wanting to have sex with a woman ? And a straight man with a man ????

    • Danielle Matheson

      Exactly. My best friend is a gay man and I asked him, would you have sex with a transman, knowing they have a vagina? His answer was obviously “no”. So it naturally moved to whether we were transphobic because we are a straight woman and a gay man. We understand the difference between biology and the construct of gender. And the most important is that no one is owed sex or an explanation as to why. Saying no just means no. But that pesky male privilege seems to think otherwise.

  • Katie MunchmaQuchi Smith

    It’s “cool” to be queer now. Being a straight up lesbian or heterosexual is not cool for women anymore. Also, nowadays you are not really a lesbian, you’re a vagiphile if you don’t want to have sex with trans women who have penises. I’m like….um? I am pretty sure we all understood that lesbians don’t like penises? This is not universal, of course, but there are enough people saying stupid shit like this that it seems to be a problem. BTW, I’m not heterosexual. I’m a cockphile since I only like sex with people with cocks….and I’m a bigot because I don’t like when a cock is attached to a woman. -sigh- Women just aren’t allowed to set sexual boundaries anymore it seems.

  • Wren

    Yep.

  • Richard Rich

    @eRuthe:disqus Yes. Women who have internalized their own misogyny, and are therefore misogynistic towards other women. The system of male dominance rewards jealous, catty behavior between females, and a hierarchy (classism) between women who have and women who don’t or struggle to get by.

  • radwonka

    “then you look at Pride festival, and the media usually showcases every Kinkster or naked person they can find wandering around”

    yeah, male gays have rarely been critical of the hypersexualisation of the LGBT (they say its “sex shaming”), the drag queens who mock women, and the celebration of eroticized abuse as “fun”

    as long as you sexualise everything, you are “progressive”, “cool”, “funny”, etc

    and if you dont agree, then you are a catholic/prude

    what kind of political goals? What kind of reasoning is that rlly?

    *sigh*

  • JingFei

    My partner is Ukrainian/Russian ( all Ukrainians speak Russian on a certain side of the country). We watched a documentary on these ones. Their aim is basically to find good husbands in the end.
    So it isn’t truly some kind of segregated community. It seemed more like teaching the girls self defense and how to find the right kind of guy.

    • Wren

      I read about that too. It’s definitely better for them to find a “good” husband (whatever that means) then get trafficked, so I can’t fault them for that. I just wish the world offered more options for them.

      • JingFei

        Yeah. Finding a “rich” husband is really drilled into their heads from a young age as they have limited options. Especially if they are single mothers.

    • FierceMild

      That’s really disappointing. I thought they were actual separatists. Like Shakers only not Christian, completely badass and all female.

      • JingFei

        Well, you have to understand the limited choices in Ukraine for females. They are very poor, and they have a culture where women are raised and encouraged to find a b/f or husband who is 10 years their senior at least. This is because he will have money.
        That’s why there are so many Ukrainian “mail-order brides”. They want to escape poverty.
        They are alienated by their society if they don’t marry a man in their 20’s ( out of their 20’s they are considered “old maid”).
        To truly be separatists… that would be quite something in that part of the world. But very very very hard unfortunately.

  • Jocelyn Crawley

    You’re welcome. I’m very, very excited about sharing ideas with other feminists and learning from them so I can deepen my consciousness and contribute to female vitality in a strong way. 🙂

    • FierceMild

      I thought your article was good. Thanks for sharing.

  • martindufresne

    The BBC documentary on whether transing children is ethical is now on-line: https://archive.org/details/BBC-trans-kids

  • Wren

    Lol. Yeah I actually read through some of her posts on disqus on other threads, and I don’t think she means harm, I just honestly think she’s confused. But I’m pretty confused about all of this as well…I mean, IT’S FUCKING CRAZY.

  • Wren

    Of course. Submission is consent now. It means we didn’t fight to our death.

  • Wren

    It is oppressive that I make my cat shit in a box instead of outside like the canines. My god, I am so violent and hateful.

  • FierceMild

    I agree. And I confess my weakness in still using the word. I’m trying to mend my ways!

  • FierceMild

    Who was it that said oppression doesn’t happen by mistake? It my have been Lierre Keith.

  • Lisa Tremblay

    Thanks. I had a similar eye opening experience once and remember being shocked at gay men’s lack of understanding about power. The thing about gay men that’s different from straight men is that women and girls feel physically and sexually safe around them. The problem is when they look right through us and assume a male-centric view of the world. As a lesbian, I experience camaraderie with some gay men and enjoy the ways they challenge gender norms and expectations. But the camaraderie falls apart if they don’t understand systemic male dominance and what that means for lesbians in the movement or for women in general.

  • Cassandra

    “Women’s sexuality will not be free until we take down the patriarchy, and any efforts at using it to empower ourselves will be co-opted for male benefit. The same is true of breaking out of gender roles and the gender binary, the attempt at which will be used against us to invade our spaces and erase our realities as long as this hierarchy of male privilege exists.”

    I don’t know why this very simple truth is so very hard for so very many to understand.

  • Independent Radical

    I don’t care what animals do, ever. I think genital stimulation of any kind provokes a physical pleasure response, but the specifics of how that is accomplished is socially conditioned. It doesn’t need to include oral sex (or penetration in the case of heterosexual dynamics). Please don’t misinterpret my arguments as an objection to all lesbian sexual activity.

    To me your arguments sound a lot like lesbian defences of sadomasochism. You’re basically saying “yes, I know it’s anti-egalitarian when men do it to women, but when women do it to women it’s alright, because women can’t possibly copy the abusive behaviours of men”. Unfortunately, women can and do, hence the existence of lesbian sadomasochism. Women should be aspiring to do better than men, not assuming that anything they do is automatically better because they are women. That reasoning can justify anything. I do see giving someone a massage as a subordinate behaviour (it’s even part of lifestyle sadomasochism, I believe), that’s why men pay women to do it (nobody pays for the right to massage another, as far as I know). If I were with someone I would want that person to be happy, but I wouldn’t sacrifice considerable time and resources on an activity that only made them happy and gave me nothing. Experiencing pleasure solely by making another happy is yet another behaviour that women have been conditioned into favouring.

    I don’t believe that sex creates intimacy and love. I believe it expresses intimacy and love. The idea that women are automatically bonded to the men (or women) they have sex strikes me as example of evolutionary psychology, which feminists agree is bullshit. Women don’t become helplessly bonded to a man because she had sex with him. Men create the bond first in order to convince women to have sex with them. Furthermore, I don’t see oral sex is intimate at all. Physical intimacy for me is about bringing bodies together. Oral sex brings mouths and genitals together with those parts often being the only parts that touch. Other sexual acts bring more body parts together, not just genitals.

    While there is nothing wrong with being an asexual (I think the asexuality spectrum is too broad, but some people are fully asexual), I don’t believe I am one just because my sexuality isn’t centred on genitals or penetration, because I reject the idea that sex focused on genitals and penetration is the only kind of “real sex”. For example, I see passionate kissing as a sexual act, even though it doesn’t involve genitals, since it is highly arousing. Sadomasochists are never labelled asexual even though their sexual practices also don’t involve genitals (they can, but often don’t). If sadomasochists are having “real sex” without genitals being involved, why can’t gentle sexually arousing acts that don’t involve genitals be considered “real sex”? I want to do sexual stuff (with someone I loved and felt intimate with well before the act) and be aroused. I just don’t want anyone’s genitals near my mouth, because I’m not about pleasing others (men or women) and hoping I’ll feel happy solely because they’re happy. How dare I want to things I actually enjoy, right?

  • Wren

    I agree and I don’t think women need to be rude and crazy about it. It’s more about drawing a hard, definitive line. If we pretend for one minute to listen to their justifications and word salad, then we get nowhere. The fact that we even listen or engage in this imaginative shit is already capitulation and they know it. It’s an energy suck and ain’t nobody got time for that.

  • Wren

    “What concerns me most is the diffuse feeling of unreality about it all.
    That sense that it’s impossible that it could get worse because it’s
    just too irrational and absurd, so why worry about it? People who look
    back often describe the prelude to terrible events in exactly this way.”

    TOTALLY. This is why I can’t shut up about everything, and I’ve stopped reassuring anyone that it’s going to be okay. We gotta be vigilant, not passive, to everything that could possibly happen. Of course I’m also talking about Trump, but everything in total shows we are heading towards a very unstable period in history.

  • Leo

    I don’t mean to suggest you should identify that way if you experience sexual attraction in the typical way, just that romantic asexual people might share experiences in common such as having had to navigate specific sexual expectations of them in relationships, and they won’t want that kind of relationship that includes penetration, oral, either (while they might well be fine with kissing, not seeing it as sexual themselves even if a partner does, and be interested in talking about non-genital centred sexuality and ways to express affection in relationships), and the asexual community as a whole, despite the invasion of the sex pozzis (which actually frustrates a lot of asexual people too and there is pushback against it and people describing themselves as ‘sex negative’), still includes a lot of people who are fed up with our hypersexualised society. There are many of us who are sex-repulsed, too, in fact they’re the majority of the community (here: https://asexualagenda.wordpress.com/2014/06/22/i-am-not-your-dirty-secret/), and that can include feeling uncomfortable about genitals specifically (I feel as though sexual people are somewhat weird for actually WANTING to look at them and veer between ‘eww, gross gross gross!’ and more indifferent and clinical but still not positive reactions, but that’s me). I do think most sexual people are pretty sincere about the keenness of their interest in genitals, bizarre as it seems to me too, so for a sexual person who wasn’t, or who wasn’t especially, some asexual people might be more likely to understand that experience.

    I mean, what you’re saying makes a lot of sense to me (though I’m bearing in mind sexual people vary and don’t feel it’d be fair, say, to expect everyone to be grossed out by certain acts), and though I’m aromantic as well, I know I’m not the only asexual person who’d ‘get’ it or who wants for sexual people to be able to talk about the variations in their experiences too (https://asexualagenda.wordpress.com/2014/07/30/not-everybody-wants-to-do-it/). We’re mostly not actually tumblr sex pozzis adopting it to feel like a special snowflake – my feeling when I finally found the term ‘asexual’ wasn’t that it made me special, it was thank god I could stop feeling *quite* such a freak, broken, because although it might be unusual, at least I wasn’t the only one after all, as I’d believed. It still took me time to feel Ok with it and I’m still not always (because it’s very alienating to live in such a hypersexualised society, and sexual people usually just don’t see things the same way), just mostly. So, I feel we’re not the worst bet, for people who might be willing to look at sexuality differently.

  • Athena Brown

    So I’ve made what I think is a thorough response to this article. If anyone cares to see it: https://www.facebook.com/Athena.Brown759/posts/943674465763098

  • foamreality

    yeah, I got that point. I may have over thought this. It depends whether you think political correctness is a thing or not. So to me rad- feminism is the politically correct way to think and act. If your sexual desires arent feminist, no matter how difficult or even impossible it is to change those desires, you still need to account for any harm they cause. It isnt a defence to say you cant change how you feel if such feelings actively harms others. (lib fems justify porn culture this way – ‘ooh but them feelz is real’ ) The author here has made it clear its not wrong not to want to sleep with trans, nobody should sleep with someone they dont want to. And no harm is done. ‘Desire being remarkably disinterested in political correctness’ isnt relevent to the issue (whether true or not) . What is relevent, (ironically) is that it is understood to be politically correct that anyone can reject anyone. They need no reason. And you might even desire the person you want to reject too!

    • Jocelyn Macdonald

      BDSM and kink are examples of desire that is disinterested in political correctness. Many radical feminists, including me, have had desires that are informed by porn and rape culture. These elements *should* be interrogated and contextualized. It is possible to influence your own sexuality by thinking critically, and I think this has led many women to give up porn, kink, fetishized gender roles, even heterosexuality. The point remains though: your brain and your body react to stimuli on a base level; the theorization and politicization come after.

      • foamreality

        How do you think rad feminists should seek to resolve these contradictions? It seems you are saying you can’t have both. Either women must reject their cultured desires and therefore sex altogether or reject their radical feminist theories and politics? I’m not sure how women are supposed to resolve that internal conflict. Either rejection seem extremely destructive to women, but neither can co-exist. How do you deal with it (if I may ask) as an ex kink/porn user? Do you think it is as hard to rid ourselves of cultural imprinted sexual desires as it is our biologically innate sexual attractions (where/if they exist). I’m lucky that porn culture hasn’t filtered into being a particularly strong influence on my sexual desires. That might be to do with my age (40) – as i had little exposure to it during my younger years but younger women today will inevitably have been much more influenced. I worry about how these women, whose anti-women desires are still real, hope to live and act as rad femists without feeling bereft of any sexual satisfaction.

  • BellaDonna

    I disagree with you, dominance and submission exists in het relationships, because of the power differential between men and women, they can only exist in same sex relationships if they are created by role play etc. Sexual acts themselves are not inherently dominance and submission, though mens bodies do lend themselves to that, because that is how they are made. Men’s and women’s bodies are different, oral sex with women is physically very different than with men. For example women are not choked from performing oral sex on other women, though can easily be from men. I think comparing oral sex between women to S&M practices is is extreme to be honest, and nothing at all like the reality of the act.

    The main problem is you are seeing oral sex between women from mens point of view, i.e. Men have said it is about dominance and submission therefore it must be so, in all circumstances, between all people, whether there are actual sexual power dynamics between the participants or not. I’m sorry but this just is not so, that is a male belief. It is not about “reinterpreting” things, some of us never interpreted it in that male way to begin with, which is what I am trying to say. It is actually you that is reinterpreting it through the male view.

    The mouth is a very personal and sensitive part of the body and so are the genitals, so of course it is intimate. It creates a very strong feeling of closeness between the participants, which is why we like it, therefore I’d say it is very intimate. There are of course other acts that we do too, it is just one of the acts that makes us feel the most close and connected to one another. It is not the same as doing it with men, when it is between two women. Males are always trying to reinterpret lesbians behaviour through their own male way of looking at things. To be honest I think that is what you are doing here, even if you are unaware of it.

    It is illogical to say that bonding is about emotions and feelings, that somehow do not happen within the brain. The body, including the brain is a complete entity, thoughts can cause neurons to be released, so can actions.

    People tend to think women’s genitals are disgusting, because that is what they are taught by male society, hence they feel aversion to giving oral sex to women. It is actually fairly rare that they feel giving oral sex to males is disgusting, because they have been taught to love male genitals. It is possible to internalise one view that is taught, i.e. That females genitals are disgusting, whilst also rejecting the other, i.e. That males are appealing. Those of us lesbians that like oral sex with women, do not like it because it makes us feel better about our genitals, we like it because it makes us feel close to the other woman, and we just have not internalised the view that females genitals are disgusting. I think sometimes when people do not like something want to justify not liking it. It is perfectly fine not to like something, there does not have to be a justification.

  • lk

    IR,

    I read your posts on here and find them interesting. TBH, I don’t think I’ve given oral sex much thought in term of feminist analysis (unless its forced, coerced, violent, involves name-calling etc). I probably haven’t given it much thought because oral sex has pretty much been accepted as a normal, healthy part of a sexual relationship. I’m also not familiar with the history of oral sex but I thought it was somewhat popular long before the introduction of modern pornography?

    “Physical intimacy for me is about bringing bodies together”.- Can you explain what you mean by this? It seems like any physical contact (with the exception of hugging) only brings parts of our bodies together-hand holding brings our hands together, kissing brings our mouths together and etc.

    As a whole, I think many women probably long for sexual pleasure that focuses less on penetration and more on other parts of their bodies…I’m always seeing articles and comments where women discuss how much they enjoy foreplay (kissing, touching and massaging of sensitive parts of their bodies-something their genitals but usually other areas of their body that they want touched).

    • Independent Radical

      “I probably haven’t given it much thought because oral sex has pretty
      much been accepted as a normal, healthy part of a sexual relationship.”

      That is the problem. I’m not trying to call anybody deviant. In fact I don’t think it’s inherently wrong to “deviate” from the status quo and I don’t equate “accepted” and “normal” with “good for women”. I feel there are plenty of dominance and submission dynamics in what is considered normal and healthy.

      This shouldn’t really be a strange idea to feminists, who criticise other accepted things like beauty practices and conventional romance. It is normal for women to have their fathers walk them down the isle and hand them over to their husbands whose surnames the wives take. Those who do this are not considered deviant in any way, yet when we look closer there is clearly a hierarchical relationship involved. You can “reinterpret” the wedding ceremony all you want, but I don’t think that is the solution. There is a real loss in power that comes from having to constantly label yourself the wife of someone else (by using their surname as yours). I don’t think it’s a matter of interpretation.

      Instead of ignoring such dynamics or trying to deny that they are there,
      we should be looking for them and trying to abolish them as best as we
      can. I’m sure most radical feminists will agree with this criticism of
      weddings and allow me to subject other accepted aspects of romantic
      relationships to the same criticism (e.g. men paying for women’s meals,
      men sweeping women off their feet and carrying them as if they couldn’t
      walk). However, when it comes to sex, even some radical feminists seem
      resistant to the idea of subjecting it to the same scrutiny that
      everything gets subjected to and imagining completely different
      possibilities for it.

      I’m not against sex pleasure in the abstract (though I reject the
      way sex is equated with intercourse) any more than I’m against romance
      in the abstract. I just like the way we go about both is completely
      wrong and needs to be seriously transformed, not just tweaked to get rid
      of the really bad stuff (though that’s a start). Nothing is beyond
      criticism in my view, not even “normal” sex.

      “I’m also not familiar with the history of oral sex but I thought it
      was somewhat popular long before the introduction of modern pornography.”

      It existed, but it was far less popular (it was a minority practice rather than a majority practice) and more people were critical of it. Mostly conservatives I admit, but I confess to often feeling that some of the conservatives condemned by liberals as prudish (not all conservatives of course and definitely not Trump, sorry for bringing him up, but I’m still pissed off about him become president) often do have more respect and compassion for women (those on their side and in their families at least) than liberals. The problem is that they want to “benevolently rule” women for the purposes of protecting them from dangers that are often real, though ironically created by the conservatives’ own politics (the rise in oral sex is largely due in part to their virginity worship).

      The point is, people who weren’t liberals, didn’t tolerate oral sex as much before pornography start promoting it (don’t forget the rise of soft core pornography in the 1950s and 1960s). Shelia Jeffreys has spoken of how lipstick was (in the nineteenth century I believe a way for prostituted women to indicate that they were willing to perform oral. Why would men seek out prostituted women with a special marker on their lips if the act was so common? This suggests the act was, at that time, rare even among prostitutes.

      It doesn’t matter really. Many messed up practices have a long history and some are even without a doubt natural. If you’ve read my previous comments, you’ll know I’m no fan of natural pregnancies and childbirth either (another position that puts me at odds with many radical feminists) even though they have existed as long as humans have.

      I’m all for using technology to improve upon nature (so long as it isn’t used for patriarchal, capitalistic or environmentally damaging purposes) and I imagine technology could be used to invent even safer and better sexual practices, but that’s a whole other topic. Transhumanists have some interesting ideas about the future of human bodies (look them up if you want) that would require the development of new sexualities. Radical feminists could be exploring similar possibilities, but unfortunately science and technology are fields dominated by liberal men who I worry will misuse them.

      “It seems like any physical contact (with the exception of hugging) only
      brings parts of our bodies together-hand holding brings our hands
      together, kissing brings our mouths together and etc.”

      You can kiss, hug and hold hands all at the same time, because none of those actions consume your focus the way I feel oral sex does. In fact you can do many things while lying naked side by side, which I feel is a big part of what makes vaginal intercourse so appealing to women (more so than the penetration itself), but intercourse is so unquestioned that people don’t seem to realise that such touching can happen without it. At least vaginal and anal intercourse allow for that sort of touching, while oral sex forces bodies into positions that make it difficult and the genitals become the focus (especially since the head is such a sensitive area).

      I think you’re right about women preferring “foreplay”, but I hate how the term is used to suggest that such actions are only a lead up to “real sex”. I think the idea of “real sex” should be abandoned, with “foreplay”, particularly if used to bring someone to orgasm (which it sometimes can), being seen as sufficient to complete a sexual union. All forms of intercourse (including oral) should be completely optional for people in sexual relationships (we should not forget the external social pressures surrounding the acts in addition to pressure that might occur within the relationship) and not the end goal of all sexual activity.

  • Charlotte Moon

    I wanted to share a well-meaning response to this article and to Feminist Current here: https://writingsofayounglesbian.wordpress.com/2017/01/22/response-to-the-condemnation-of-young-lesbians-calling-themselves-queer/

  • ripia

    Do you have a blog calabasa? Your essays are always great. 🙂

  • Independent Radical

    I think you’re basically arguing sex liberalism, but applying it exclusively to women. If women can do anything they want and not have it be an act of dominance or an imitation of masculinity, then why not practice lesbian sadomasochism? You’re arguing for child masturbation, which is a pretty sex liberal position in my view, but one can touch their genitals without thinking that they’re the greatest, tastiest thing in the world and that they should be licked. That attitude (specifically the idea that they should be put in people’s mouths) makes them seem gross to me. That’s why I brought up dirt. I don’t think dirt is that gross, but I don’t want it in my mouth and I don’t think that’s the result of indoctrination.

    There’s just a narrow range of thing that people would put in their mouth and if take a random object and ask me to stick it in my mouth I’m going to find it much grosser than if you didn’t. There are many body parts that people don’t want to lick, so I think it’s arrogant (and masculine) to demand that every part of your body be licked for your physical pleasure, which is more a product of the brain than the genitals in my opinion. I also see this overly physical view of sexual pleasure (that it comes only or mostly from genital stimulation) as masculine and yes, masculinity is a way of behaving and thinking that male bodied people are indoctrinated into.

    I think it’s overly cynical to think that men are automatically masculine because they have stronger bodies (also partially a product of masculine indoctrination, since men are encouraged to do things that strengthen their bodies while women are encouraged to weaken them). Masculinity and femininity can and should be rejected by everyone, which isn’t to say that women who embrace masculinity are as bad as men (since they don’t embrace it to the same degree), but their actions aren’t automatically good or acceptable.

  • Anya

    I do, and am all about a radfem misathrope knit a long. Am currently knitting a wee fair isle patch for my jacket that reads “buzzkill feminist”. Would be thoroughly into talking about feminist ideals with folks, intermingled with cute pics of the crafts we’re working on.

  • Samalia Poteete

    I’m definitely tired of being called transphobic. I’m a bio woman who loves bio women. I have no problem with trans people. He’ll I’ve lived with and have been friend with trans peeps for years. But it seems like ever since the new wave of sexualities came out its been chaotic. I’ve struggled with my sexuality for years because being lesbian was such a dirty word. I’ve been bisexual but….women are so amazing to me. Their bodies, mind and souls. I don’t really agree with everything but you shed some light on things I’ve been too afraid to point out

  • Danielle Matheson

    I love your reply. It’s exactly how I feel. I feel like I am constantly screaming NO but I’m not heard by the menfolk. Nor by libfems. Like when I thought BDSm might be something I’d like to try (I’m so glad I never engaged in anything other than conversations) I could never get an answer from men as to why they feel it’s okay to dominate and subject another person to that. They wouldn’t even explain where their interests come from. The honest to univserse answer I always received was “well my partner likes it. They consent to it.” Like fucking duh, idiot. But again it puts all the onus on the woman and he doesn’t have to admit he likes to beat and subjugate women. Sorry for the rant, but your thoughts spoke to me.

  • James Hundley

    Is there a difference between accepting transwomen as women and finding transwomen attractive? Not finding someone attractive isn’t transphobic at all. Attacking them because we’re still stuck with inaccurate binaries seems to be the issue, no?

  • Martine

    “Lesbians are attracted to bio females”
    I really don’t think I could fall in love or be interesting in a transsexual woman because she would be probably too “feminine” in a weird way( also because I don’t like the way they see sex and gender). It’s a prejudice though, maybe I’m wrong. If I could fall in love with a transgender? maybe.
    But still, I’m not attracted to bio females, I’m not attracted to females but to women. I’m not directly attracted to breasts and vaginas so it’s fair to say I would not care if my girflriend had a penis. Which would never happened because we live in a too binary society.