‘TERF’ isn’t just a slur, it’s hate speech

The term “TERF” is not just used to smear and deride, but to incite violence.

Adolf Hitler addressing Nazi rally

Last week, a 60-year-old woman was beaten up at Speaker’s Corner by several men. She was there with a group of women, who had chosen the historic corner of Hyde Park as a meeting place, before heading off to a talk called, “What is Gender.” The men who punched and kicked Maria MacLachlan had come to protest the women on account of their interest in feminism and in discussing the way new conversations and legislation around “gender identity” could impact the women’s movement and women’s rights. The protestors did not frame their anger and inflammatory rhetoric in this way, though. Instead, they labelled the women “TERFs” (trans exclusionary radical feminists) — a word that has come to signify a modern witch: to be silenced, threatened, harassed, punched, and — yes — killed.

The idea that feminists who question the notion of “gender identity” should be beaten and murdered has very rapidly become accepted by self-described leftists. We’re not just talking about Twitter eggs, here. Men with large platforms who are publicly associated with Antifa and groups like the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) have amplified the “punch TERFs” and “TERFs get the guillotine” message proudly, with the support of their comrades. In reference to The Handmaid’s Tale, many have taken to saying “TERFs get the wall.”

The comparison is a surprisingly (and frighteningly) truthful admission in terms of the intent of these men. “The wall” in The Handmaid’s Tale is where executed bodies are hung, often with placards around their necks that read “Gender Treachery.” The dead bodies serve as a warning to others: do not rebel, do not fight back, do not reject the patriarchal order of things. And this is precisely what these men who use the term “TERF” are saying to women: obey our rule or you will be punished.

Rather than condemning the violence at Speaker’s Corner, numerous trans activists and self-identified leftist men have celebrated and encouraged it.

 

While some will claim the word “TERF” is neutral, it’s use demonstrates the opposite. It is not a word that women have claimed for themselves — like “slut,” “cunt,” or “bitch,” “TERF” is a word imposed on women to shut them up, bully them, condemn them, smear them, humiliate them, and dismiss them. But more than that: it is a threat. If I think about the times in my life I have been called these words — cuntbitch, slut — by a man, I have almost always felt the threat of violence behind them. The spitting rage behind those words — the desire to follow through with a punch — is too often present. I have always known these words are used against me as an explicit reminder: you are subordinate. No matter how confident, tough, self-assured, strong, or brave a woman is, these words still put her in her place.

The term, “TERF,” is itself an intentional manipulation, intended to reframe feminist ideas and activism as “exclusionary,” rather than foundational to the women’s liberation movement. In other words, it is an attack on women-centered political organizing and the basic theory that underpins feminist analysis of patriarchy.

For example, those of us called “TERF” are labelled as such for numerous crimes, including:

  • Understanding that women are members of an oppressed class of people (a sex class or caste, as feminists like Kate Millett and Sheila Jeffreys have called it)
  • Challenging the notion of innate or internal gender
  • Having conversations about “gender identity”
  • Questioning whether or not children should begin the process of transitioning
  • Associating with or defending women who have been labelled “TERF”
  • Understanding that the root of women’s oppression and male supremacy is in biological sex
  • Understanding that gender is imposed, and is oppressive/exists to create a hierarchy between men and women.
  • Questioning dogma and mantras like “transwomen are women”
  • Supporting woman-only space
  • Disputing an ideology that claims “male” and “female” are not a material reality

These things are not only not criminal, but are at the root of feminism. In other words, in order to understand how patriarchy works, you must first understand who is a member of the dominant class and who is a member of the subordinate class. You must understand that male violence against women is systemic. You must understand that women are not inherently “feminine,” and that men are not inherently “masculine.” You must be willing to have critical conversations and ask challenging questions about the status quo, about dominant ideology, and about political discourse. You must understand that patriarchy began as a means to control women’s reproductive capacity, and that, therefore, women’s biology is very much central to their status as “less than.” You must understand that feminism is a woman-centered movement, and that women have the right to meet and to organize amongst themselves, without members of the oppressor class (men), to advocate toward their own liberation.

What people are saying when they say “TERF” is “feminist.” It is “uppity woman.” What they mean when they say “exclusionary” is not, as is often claimed, “exclusive of trans-identified people,” but “exclusive of males.” Gender non-conformity is welcomed in feminism — feminism is about not conforming to gender norms. If we were interested in conforming, we would, as is often suggested to us, sit down and shut up.

While “TERF” has always been a slur, what has become clear of late is that it is no longer just that: it is hate speech.

Deborah Cameron, a feminist linguist and professor in language and communication at Oxford, explains that there are key questions we must ask to determine whether a term constitutes a slur, such as:

  • Has the term been imposed or has it been adopted voluntarily by the group the term has been applied to?
  • Is the word commonly understood to convey hatred or contempt?
  • Does the word have a neutral counterpart which denotes the same group without conveying hatred/contempt?
  • Do the people the word is applied to regard it as a slur?

Considering the answers to these questions — that, yes, the term has been imposed on feminists, it is always understood as pejorative, it does have a neutral counterpart (i.e. one could just use the term “feminist”), and feminists have consistently stated that the term is a slur — “TERF” is undoubtedly that. Considering that women are the primary target of this slur and that it is commonly attached to threats of (and, as of late, real-life) violence, there is something more we must now contend with.

Following the violent incident at Speaker’s Corner (which was no accident — one of the perpetrators had publicly expressed his intention to “fuck some terfs up”), I have received hundreds of death threats from men online. I’m not alone, either. Any woman who challenged men’s celebration or defense of the violence at Speaker’s Corner became a target. All of these threats have been attached to the term, “TERF.” Feminists have been labelled in this way specifically to dehumanize them, to spread outrageous lies about their politics (claiming feminists want to kill trans-identified people or that they advocate genocide), to reframe them as oppressors of males who identify as gender non-conforming, and to paint them, generally, as evil witches, therefore deserving of violence.

Proliferating lies about and dehumanizing an oppressed group of people in order to justify abuse is a longtime strategy of racists and xenophobes. Hitler used these tools to commit genocide against the Jews. Indeed, propaganda was a key tool of the Nazis in their efforts to spread antisemitism, quell dissent, and turn people against one another. German newspapers printed cartoons and ads depicting antisemitic images and messages.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it,” was Hilter’s guiding mantra. He trusted that people wouldn’t think for themselves and would simply act out of fear or intellectual laziness, jumping on bandwagons without thoroughly questioning the purpose and foundation of those bandwagons. The Holocaust was successful because the public went along with it — because individuals believed the myths and lies proliferated by the Nazis, and because they didn’t stand up, think critically, or push back.

While hate speech laws differ from place to place (and can be blurry), as a general rule, making statements intended to expose people to hatred or violence, or that advocate genocide, constitute hate speech.

Because feminists who challenge gender identity ideology are often (strategically) accused of advocating genocide, let’s be clear: “genocide” does not mean arguing that biological sex is a real thing, challenging the idea that femininity and masculinity are innate, or suggesting certain spaces should be for women and girls alone. What genocide does mean is: killing members of an identifiable group or deliberately inflicting conditions of life aimed to bring about the physical destruction of an identifiable group.

In other words, suggesting that feminists should all be destroyed, fired from their jobs, forced into homelessness, harassed, silenced, removed from society, abused, and sent to the Gulag.

Under the law, advocating or promoting genocide is an indictable offence. Likewise, those who promote hatred against an identifiable group or communicate statements in public that incite hatred or violence against an identifiable group that are likely to lead to a breach of the peace (i.e. for example: what happened at Speaker’s Corner) are guilty of an indictable offence.

But these laws are hard to enforce. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. We should not be charging people willy-nilly for things they say on Twitter. What we most certainly should be doing is holding men to account for inciting violence against women and holding media and other institutions to account for normalizing hate speech.

So, beyond the law, let’s talk about accountability. When the media normalizes hate speech, they become culpable. A publication would not use the n-word to describe a black person or the word “kike” to describe a Jewish person. This is because we know that these terms reinforce racism and justify discrimination and/or abuse against particular groups of people who have been historically and systemically oppressed. When the media, institutions, and authorities become aware that a particular term is being used to incite violence against women, it is their responsibility to condemn or simply refrain from encouraging the use of that language.

And yet we have seen various media outlets using the term uncritically, of late.

The fact that the vast majority of those connecting the word “TERF” to threats of violence, death, and genocide are men is notable. The word has been offered up to those who identify as leftists, who have been, on some level, prevented from making misogynistic statements publicly or otherwise advocating violence against women. Their “progressive” credentials meant that they had to maintain a facade of political correctness. But because women labelled “TERF” have been compared to Nazis and bigots, and because trans activism claims to be allied with the interests of the marginalized (despite its overt anti-feminism and individualist ideology), these leftist men have a socially acceptable excuse. Indeed, they seem to revel in it. It’s as if they were given the green light to scream “bitch” (or perhaps “witch” would be more accurate, considering the targeting of specific unruly women to “punch”… or burn…) over and over again, cheered on by their comrades.

If “TERF” were a term that conveyed something purposeful, accurate, or useful, beyond simply smearing, silencing, insulting, discriminating against, or inciting violence, it could perhaps be considered neutral or harmless. But because the term itself is politically dishonest and misrepresentative, and because its intent is to vilify, disparage, and intimidate, as well as to incite and justify violence against women, it is dangerous and indeed qualifies as a form of hate speech. While women have tried to point out that this would be the end result of “TERF” before, they were, as usual, dismissed. We now have undeniable proof that painting women with this brush leads to real, physical violence. If you didn’t believe us before, you now have no excuse.

Meghan Murphy
Meghan Murphy

Founder & Editor

Meghan Murphy is a freelance writer and journalist. She has been podcasting and writing about feminism since 2010 and has published work in numerous national and international publications, including New Statesman, Vice, Al Jazeera, The Globe and Mail, I-D, Truthdig, and more. Meghan completed a Masters degree in the department of Gender, Sexuality and Women’s Studies at Simon Fraser University in 2012 and lives in Vancouver, B.C. with her dog.

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  • melissa

    Holly shit, those tweets…This is psychotic behavior.

    • DeColonise

      It is the behavior of a totalitarian mindset. These people want to rule with intimidation, force and submission of the people to their theology.

    • finnja

      It is like all this time they felt something was wrong, they felt somehow restrained, and then…… this word comes along and all of a sudden they can freely live out their misogyny and shout down women and threaten them with violence, publicly indulging in murder fantasies of women, without any social consequences. So liberating!

  • Yisheng Qingwa

    Have the FBI been notified? These are credible, specific–and persistent–threats of violence

  • kallaikoi

    I used to support transactivism, but I am seriously rethinking my position. I am terribly disappointed that the trans community isn’t rejecting this violence, it seems as they see feminism as their ally exclusively when we support them, but I don’t see any reciprocity.

    • Lynn

      Same. It never really made sense to me, but really what do I care if it makes someone happier? I don’t even care about bathroom bills etc. But I’ll be damed if other people get to decide I’m “cis” or that I have to accept naked dicks at a women’s spa, or be forced to provide service to a man who I feel unsafe with just because he is trans, or that I have to pretend biology doesn’t exist and that your dick can be a lady! This is becoming lunacy.

    • Melinda Mann

      Many of us — maybe most — started out, at least provisionally, supporting the trans movement. One could, I believed, make the case for biological sex being separate from gender presentation and the creation of a sort of third social category for males who wanted to dress in stereotypically female clothing and mimic “femininity” and females who wanted to dress and act as “men.” Even now, I would defend their right to advocate for their own spaces. But when it became clear that the goal of trans-identified males was a complete colonization of womanhood and denial of the rights and experiences of females, I was all done. Cuz now we are just talkin’ about the same bullshit that’s been going on for thousands of years — males dominating and subjugating females. I know who my male allies are. And they ain’t wearing lipstick and calling me a bigot for wanting a penis-free bathroom.

      • Lucia Lola

        Yup.

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  • ✧ʕ̢̣̣̣̣̩̩̩̩·͡˔·ོɁ̡̣̣̣̣̩̩̩̩✧

    You must be logged in to upload an image.

    um, but i am logged in.

  • Polly MacDavid

    Typical abusive shit. Name-calling until you STFU.

  • MAYDAY 4 WOMEN

    In response to the attack at Speakers’ Corner, the women who organised the original event have now set up a campaign group called Mayday. We want to raise awareness of how the proposed changes to the UK Gender Recognition Act impacts women’s rights.

    We have another event planned on Wednesday 27th September 2017 in Brighton, UK.

    Our Facebook page can be found here: https://www.facebook.com/Mayday-1694349257243278/

    Please like and share!

  • Jackie Mearns

    This is honestly the best and clearest exposition of why “TERF” is hate speech that I have ever read. I want to copy and paste this to my MP (credited, obviously) who is in the process of uncritically riding the bandwagon that’s about to tear through women’s rights in my country.
    Thank you. I’m taking out a regular donation today.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I have been reporting them, yes. And Twitter has actually been dealing with some of them, shockingly!

  • Meghan Murphy

    You’ve successfully created the perfect example of a trans activist argument: no content, zero argument, does not make or respond to a single point. Well done!

  • Meghan Murphy

    I didn’t argue that slut, bitch, and cunt are acceptable? Maybe I’m misunderstanding your comment…?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Solidarity, sister <3

  • Meghan Murphy

    Thank you, Spike!

  • Meghan Murphy

    Thank you so much, Vicki <3

  • Meghan Murphy

    Thank you so much, sister <3 (And sorry the comments over there are such a nightmare… I've been leaving a bunch of the terrible ones up because I think they kinda reinforce the point… )

  • Meghan Murphy

    Thank you.

  • Meghan Murphy

    God is real. If you deny that you will burn in hell.

    • Melinda Mann

      Actually, we aren’t gonna leave it up to God. We’ll go ahead and burn you here on earth. Best for us to assume it’s what God has planned for you.

  • Meghan Murphy

    How so? What is a woman?

    • COD

      What is a woman? I’m betting you can’t come up with an answer that doesn’t focus on the social reality and not physical attributes.

      • Melinda Mann

        And why should she have to? We see what you are doing. Woman means “adult human female.” It is this definition of woman that is the basis for laws and customs subjugating women for millennia. You want women to come up with a definition of woman that ignores our own subjugation at the hands of males and includes males in the definition. I can see how that works out for dudes who hate women, but hmmm, some how I am not seeing how females benefit from this. Care to explain?

  • Meghan Murphy

    “TERFs are hated because they are literally a hate group.”

    How do women who question the idea that gender is innate equate to a hate group?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Feminism.

    • DonG

      What do you think the last letter in TERF means?

      • Meghan Murphy

        Then why use the acronym?

  • FierceMild

    Really? Where? Is it misleading to know that we’re a sexually dimorphism species?

  • FierceMild

    1) what is a woman?

    2) what is violence?

  • FierceMild

    Thank you, but be careful how you choose to make a stand. They won’t hesitate to hurt you in the name of “real” trans people.

  • M. Zoidberg

    Define “woman.” We’ll wait.

  • Already happening.

  • Hello Athena. You said you aren’t sure what to do. What I’d really like trans people to do is to speak out and say that violent trans activists such as the ones quoted above don’t speak for them, and let your friends and acquaintances know that you don’t agree with this bullying behaviour. Lots of well-meaning progressives think that this sort of trans activist behaviour is justified, and they need to know that trans people don’t all agree with it. In addition, we always need allies in the fight against toxic masculinity. You can help to identify the violent nature of masculine socialization and fight back against male violence. (Anyone can do this!) Thanks for listening to women.

  • If you’re going to accuse someone of “hurting trans people every day” you’re going to actually have to name something they’ve done to cause harm. Do you have any examples of feminists punching trans people, or sending them death and rape threats (as they do to us)? Receipts please.

  • martindufresne

    Great exposition of the facts. As long as platforms like Twitter allow haters to preach hate speech at feminists and women in general, progress toward justice for all will be halted and, indeed, reversed.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    Trans”women” are men. I’m sorry that reality feels like a slap upside the head, but it’s just your fragile ego, bro, grow up.

  • Melanie

    Define ‘violence’ while you’re at it.

  • Melanie

    What’s so telling is that there are no slurs for the men who actually beat, rape and murder transgender people. There’s no obsessive online campaign against them, no protests in the street, no stalkings and beatings for them. They barely rate a mention. It’s just this sick fixation on women who have the ‘wrong’ opinion, who question or who won’t play along. Could they be any more obvious?

    • Ennui

      Apparently women with an opinion are a greater threat than actual violent men?!

      Things like this make me question things. I’ve always been a vocal supporter of rights for trans people. But beating women and expressing the desire to rape lesbians…I question whether I’ve allied myself with the right group.

  • Lynn

    I really wish people would stop throwing the word “violence” around with no regard for its actual meaning. To challenge the concept of gender is not violence, to assault a woman for challenging you is.

  • melissa

    “If the bad behavior of one small group of people is enough to make you give up…”

    Oh please. Trans ideology has been anti-feminist from the get go. Hell bent on overturning gains and protection made for females by feminists. You follow this crap close enough, and anyone being honest with themselves can see the inevitable consequence of this.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    She’s talking about threats against Meghan.

  • melissa

    “The amount of people I’ve come across online who have CHOSEN to see this
    latest violence against women as violence against THEM is mind
    boggling.”

    Oh god, same.You’d think four dudes beating up an elderly woman would be enough to wake people up, but nope. When not rejoicing, a shit ton of “progressives” were actively victim blaming and lying about everything to turn trans activists that stalked, ganged up on and beat up a woman, into the real victims here. Absolutely bat shit.

  • Meghan Murphy

    When I realized so many of these threats and abuse was coming from the DSA, I was pretty shocked… I can only imagine what women go through in this org. Solidarity, sister xx

  • Meghan Murphy

    There is no such thing as gender identity and ‘transwomen’ are male.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Defining ‘woman’ doesn’t require listing all the various characteristics individual women may or may not have… “Woman” excludes trans-identified males because they are male. Get over it.

  • Meghan Murphy

    There is actually feminism and not feminism. The third wave is not feminism, for example — it’s a backlash against feminism.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Hmm perhaps I phrased that sentence badly. I don’t believe that those terms are acceptable or harmless at all. I think they are misogynist terms.

  • Gavin Gamache

    I think “the wall” used in this sense refers to putting people in front of a firing squad, like in the phrase “first against the wall when the revolution comes”. The same idea, but not directly taken from Atwood.

  • Emily Klassen

    Umm, yes they are being protested #fuckbillmaher

  • Emily Klassen

    Sounds like you agree with trans and cis women then. Cool.

    • Cassandra

      Nope.

  • Emily Klassen

    “they’ve chosen the route of abuse and will cling to it” sounds like exactly what terfs do.

    • Lucia Lola

      Sure, Jan.

  • Melinda Mann

    Likewise, there is no concerted campaign to tell het males that they are bigots for not dating trans women, like there has been with lesbians.

  • Ennui

    GNC people are not necessarily transgender ie: a feminine man and a masculine woman are GNC.

  • Melinda Mann

    What about them?

  • Melinda Mann

    Right, some dudes who consider themselves to be women also consider themselves to be lesbians. This is why identity is bullshit. There is objective reality and there’s “not exactly.” You can consider yourself to be a king, a quail or a puppy dog tail, but none of your considerations make it so unless it can also be objectively measured by others.

  • Melinda Mann

    Right, gotcha. Some females are born with congenital anomalies, so that must mean that any dude who says he’s a woman must be a woman. That makes sense.

  • Melinda Mann

    Oh, are there such a thing as trans spaces? Then why the fuck do they need to invade female spaces? You are not an ally.

  • Meghan Murphy

    No one thinks trans-identified people are the ‘boogie person.’ These are the kinds of manipulations I talk about in the piece. Feminists are concerned about male and male violence.

    “’It was not meant to be insulting. It was meant to be a deliberately technically neutral description of an activist grouping. We wanted a way to distinguish TERFs from other RadFems with whom we engaged who were trans*-positive/neutral, because we had several years of history of engaging productively/substantively with non-TERF RadFems.’

    That is what many people use the term as. Of coarse there are random idiots on Twitter misusing the word. What else is not new? There is a bad apple in EVERY batch.”

    A bad apple?? Really? A woman says she is getting hundreds and hundreds of death threats and you pretend it’s just a couple of ‘bad apples’?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Saying ‘bitch’ is easier than saying ‘woman who stands up for herself and speaks her mind,’ too.

  • zirreael

    No, yes and yes.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Curious: Have you ever heard of patriarchy?

  • Meghan Murphy

    What stereotypes am I perpetuating?

  • Meghan Murphy

    The fact that you assume ‘supporting trans people’ = supporting male violence against women is… odd….

  • Meghan Murphy

    OMG are you actually able to read?

    Here’s what I wrote:

    “Proliferating lies about and dehumanizing an oppressed group of people in order to justify abuse is a longtime strategy of racists and xenophobes. Hitler used these tools to commit genocide against the Jews. Indeed, propaganda was a key tool of the Nazis in their efforts to spread antisemitism, quell dissent, and turn people against one another. German newspapers printed cartoons and ads depicting antisemitic images and messages.

    ‘If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it,’ was Hilter’s guiding mantra. He trusted that people wouldn’t think for themselves and would simply act out of fear or intellectual laziness, jumping on bandwagons without thoroughly questioning the purpose and foundation of those bandwagons. The Holocaust was successful because the public went along with it — because individuals believed the myths and lies proliferated by the Nazis, and because they didn’t stand up, think critically, or push back.”

    The point is that you all are using the very same tactics that the Nazis did and it is incredibly dangerous and frightening.

    Did you miss the whole ‘witch hunts’ thing or what?

  • Meghan Murphy

    What is a woman?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Can you please stop dismissing male violence against women? It’s gross.

  • Meghan Murphy

    lol. Telling women/feminists not to care about women is rich.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Women die at the hands of men every day. Stop dismissing women’s concerns about male violence.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I find male violence against women scary. How about you?

  • Meghan Murphy

    How am I wrong?

  • pollik

    It is not such that TERF (an acronym for Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist) is a slur or hate speech. It is more a description of feminists, like Meghan, who campaign or speak to deny trans people basic human rights protections. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgOLs_cEKi0

    So, if you are to complain about the anger directed at TERFs by the people they are trying to mandate out of existence, then you should logically also decry the anger exhibited by #BLM, by gay people seeking rights, by women seeking rights.

    At around 1% of the population, it is nonsensical to try to claim that trans people do not exist…because they clearly do. In numerically great numbers. And have done throughout history and throughout the world. What is not know is why or how. But that doesn’t matter, any more than not knowing how or why some people have a different skin colour. At least TERFs get to choose whether to be TERFs. Neither trans nor black people have any choice about what they are.

    I am not a supporter of trans violence, or any other kind, but if you want trans violence to stop, then you need to stop treating trans as pariahs. Problem solved – trans have nothing to react against. Your arguments are almost neo-nazi, who want to mandate black people and others out of existence, and then get upset when a nazi gets punched. We know what happens when nazism is ignored…you may remember we had a war about it. It was in all the papers.

    TERFs have the choice and their choice was to make a war out of it. Trans people are just trying to survive and are pretty angry at the people trying to eliminate them.

    • Meghan Murphy

      “It is not such that TERF (an acronym for Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist) is a slur or hate speech. It is more a description of feminists, like Meghan, who campaign or speak to deny trans people basic human rights protections.”

      Trans people already have basic human rights protections. What feminists argue against is the notion of ‘gender identity’ and the idea that ‘woman’ is nothing more than a feeling/sexist stereotypes. We also argue in favour of women-only space. This is just basic feminism. If you need to lie about us in order to come up with ‘arguments,’ that says a lot about the strength of your argument.

      “I am not a supporter of trans violence, or any other kind, but if you want trans violence to stop, then you need to stop treating trans as pariahs. Problem solved – trans have nothing to react against.”

      This is sick. You are arguing that in order for women to avoid male violence, they have to do what men say. Male violence is not women’s fault — it is men’s fault. What is wrong with you!?!

  • Meghan Murphy

    There sure are! Gender is a set of sexist stereotypes imposed on people based on their biological sex. Gender is not innate, therefore there is no such thing as ‘gender identity.’

  • Meghan Murphy

    Of course the acronym is about women. What do you think a radical feminist is?

  • FierceMild

    What is a woman?

  • FierceMild

    You are a TRANSPHOBE! You just called transwomen men! Oops. Looks like even you can see the emporer has no clothes.

  • Meghan Murphy

    If we just went along with what people said about transgenderism, we’d all be repeating ‘transwomen are women!’ mindlessly.

    Steinem isn’t the woman radical feminists look toward for theory, in any case (nothing against her — she’s just not known as a key radical feminist theorist).

    I don’t believe Steinem changed her mind, anyway. I think she was bullied into recanting.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yes exactly. Religious fundamentalists fine challenges to their dogma incredibly threatening. Independent thinkers don’t support dogma, so makes sense.

  • Meghan Murphy

    lol. Yeah, I’M the one engaging in “hyperbolic vitriol.”

  • Meghan Murphy

    Hmmm, no. That’s not how arguments work. This is how dictators work, tho.

  • Meghan Murphy

    What is a woman?

  • Meghan Murphy

    <3

  • Meghan Murphy

    I have said many time that it’s not appropriate for men to take on the label, ‘feminist.’ You act like this is some gotcha moment…

  • Meghan Murphy

    Women are raped and murdered by men every day. Violence against women is real. You clearly don’t give a fuck about misogyny or about the impact of misogyny on real women’s lives.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Why can’t trans identified males ‘struggle to exist’ without constantly attacking women’s rights, work, and spaces? That would be nice…

    Also, there are COUNTLESS examples of ‘transwomen’ raping, beating, and murdering women.

  • Meghan Murphy

    True. “Transwomen” are male. That is a fact.

    • Max LaChance

      You are a liar and a bigot.

      You know you are on the wrong side of history and you’ll be remembered for inciting and inviting violence.

      If you had a chance, I bet you’d vote Trump too.

      • Meghan Murphy

        lol. Cool reversal, dude.

      • Hanakai

        When they have no argument or reasonable factual basis for their position, they degenerate into name-calling. A common tactic of fascists.

        Murphy is on the right side of biology and reality. That will override the delusions of the mentally ill and those who feel that sex is a matter of what a delusional person thinks.

      • Cassandra

        Knowing that males aren’t females isn’t lying or bigotry.

      • Hekate Jayne

        Please point out any passage where Meghan has “incited and invited violence.”

      • Cassandra

        The sun rises in the east.

        Liar! Bigot!

  • Meghan Murphy

    What is a woman? What does it mean to be ‘socially, emotionally, and internally women’?

  • Meghan Murphy

    I think men can be great allies, but no, it’s not appropriate for men to go around announcing they are radical feminists. “Show don’t tell” is the rule for male allies.

    • Christie Luv

      Just because you think that does not mean people who use the acronym TERF think that. They are able to be refering to people of any gender, or sex. I’m a feminist, and I think that’s unnecessarily divisive, which hinders the movement.

      • Meghan Murphy

        You are male, which means that you are capable of being an ally (you’d need to demonstrate that, though), but may not take on the label ‘feminist.’ Feminism is for women, not for men.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I believe you explained that you’d experienced sex/body dysphoria… This does not prove that gender is innate.

  • Meghan Murphy

    It’s not false equivalency to point out that trans activists are using tactics that have been used by other violent men in the past. It’s important to pay attention to history, lest we repeat it yada yada yada.

  • Marla

    No, this is the work of the pseudo-left.

    • Kiwipally

      You’re coming close to a #NoTrueLeftists.

  • FierceMild
  • Meghan Murphy

    I’m not sure you understand what gender is… I believe that you suffered or suffer from some kind of dysphoria or mental illness, but those very strong feelings about your body do not mean that gender is innate. Feeling that you wish you were female, not male, doesn’t prove that gender is innate. Gender is just a bunch of sexist stereotypes. It’s not something concrete or measurable.

  • Meghan Murphy

    But ‘relating with having breasts’ STILL isn’t gender. You are confusing gender with physical, biological characteristics — but gender is about personality traits ascribed to males and females.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I have addressed your beliefs about gender many times over. It’s not logical to conflate intersex conditions with a desire to be the opposite sex.

  • DSQL

    “Trans activists play the victims as a first line of strategy. That’s
    when most women fall for it. But when that fails, their second wave of
    attack is to intimidate, harass and abuse. As we see, the final wave to
    enforce their ideology is violence to dissenters and apostates”

    Yes, that is exactly how they work.

  • DSQL

    Actually we cannot tell the difference, and call it all male violence.

    Amazing how many transwomen commit violence against women and even violence against other transwomen (and I am excluding the ones who “transition” in prison) – for such a tiny percentage of the population.

    Thus far, to my knowledge, no female has killed a transwoman. But you cannot say the same. Just a few weeks back, a transwoman killed a black lesbian couple and their son. In England a few years ago, a transwoman killed a ‘part time’ transwoman, nor was it the only example of trans-on-trans violence, I just cannot be bothered going through my bookmarks to cite cases.

  • DSQL

    That’s hilarious!

  • calabasa

    If all transwomen were so sensible (in both the English and Spanish definition of that word), I would have no problem claiming them as honorary sisters.

  • calabasa

    In fact, most of the ‘conflict’ is about boundary violation – radical feminists wish to protect the rights of all women and girls to meet, change, go to the toilet, be counselled by other females, politically organise, etc in female-only environments, away from the policing/pervy eyes of males. Trans are not championing for a ‘trans bathroom’, nope, they want a no-criteria all-entry into women’s and girls spaces. We say NO to that.

    Exactly. Campaign for more trans spaces instead of demanding access to ours!

    • catlogic

      Not just women’s spaces, but women’s bodies – the more reluctant, the better. It is a blatantly misogynistic movement.

  • Morag999

    ” If women who are infertile, or are born without reproductive organs are still women, then there is no biological basis for excluding trans women.”

    This halfwitted line of reasoning is so, so tiresome.

    The small percentage of women who cannot become pregnant, for whatever medical reason, are infertile. However, 100% of men cannot become pregnant because they are MALE.

    “Infertile woman” and “man” are not synonymous.

    The former has nothing in common with the latter. They are not the same; they are not similar. In addition to being ridiculous, it is insulting to even try to compare, let alone to force these two distinct classes of people into the same classification.

  • DSQL

    LOL, amusing try at shifting the goalposts to include some bearded dude in a pink frock, that “understands himself to be socially, emotionally, and internally, [a woman]”.

    Nah, that’s not it! Nor is this bit of bullshit:
    “If women who are infertile, or are born without reproductive organs are
    still women, then there is no biological basis for excluding trans
    women.”

    I menstruated for 30-odd years, have ceased, am now infertile. I am still:
    1) female
    2) a woman (an ‘adult human female’)
    and
    3) getting really pissed off with your nonsense (refer above to the crone part).

  • calabasa

    Also, I find it interesting (and sad) that the one trans person I’ve heard voice this belief (that women are oppressed on the basis of our reproductive capacity) is the one with the least male privilege and most female experience I’ve heard from. Having “passed” and therefore been subjected to the violence and discrimination directed toward biological women by men, you understand where we are coming from. I’m sorry you had to go through that to understand, but you really get it, unlike many late-transitioners who have a cartoonish concept of what it means to be a woman. It is not you I am nervous to share my restroom or (more importantly) women’s shelter with.

    It reminds me of a conversation my friends and I had with a late-transitioning MTF friend who identifies as a lesbian. She (which I will say since she went to the trouble to have bottom surgery; I don’t condone that and would prefer men–or women–just be non-binary or agender, but if someone has such extreme dysphoria they mutilate their genitals I will use their pronouns) and the rest of us were discussing long distance solo biking. My best friend and I would LOVE to do this, but frankly I would be very scared. We asked her what the most dangerous situation she’d had was (she had gone pre-transition). He (at that point) had run into a herd of bison and had to avoid them.

    When we heard that answer, we burst out laughing. We were thinking about being followed or harassed by creepy men on the road and the danger they would pose (not bison). It was such a perfectly innocent answer from a male-socialized person.

    Though she is still tall and strong, and not quite “passing,” she is attractive and we cautioned her about the harassment she might experience on her next solo bike trip across Latin America, both of the homophobic and sexual variety.

    Again, I’m sorry you’ve had those experiences. Thanks for being an ally. Really, trans people and radfems should be allies (we are both hurt by gender), and it’s a crying shame what’s happened.

  • calabasa

    Great point. Heretics are always hated much more than people from totally different religions.

    I guess we take umbrage with the idea that being female is such a cakewalk. It’s not. But then, they’d know that if they were actually treated as female, over a long period of time (catcalls and other sexual harassment would get old to anyone after a while), and might be more understanding then (as Brenn down below).

  • DSQL

    “vs the thousands of trans women murdered for just trying to be who they are

    Stop fucking lying!
    Pull up those lists, they barely get into three digits. Every year it is a stretch by transactivists to gather up a few dozen names for the TDoR.

    Now, if you/them were to start compiling a list of murdered women, just for one country, it is almost a full time job. I know, I do it for one country (with help, but it is still a lot of work). I could wrangle up a trans list in less than a week.

    BTW, I absolutely hate liars.
    There, I admitted it, I hate a group of people, those people who are habitual liars.
    You Sir, fall into that category.

  • Kiwipally

    It’s a criminal offence in NZ law, brought in – I believe – as an attempt to more seriously counter domestic violence (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM329383.html). As you can see from the link, it is similar to assault on a child, recognising the relative difference (normally) in size between the offender and the victim. I know some women are larger than some men, and some 13-year-olds are bigger than some adults.

  • Kiwipally

    Brenn, the only thing I do not accept is that you are a woman. I do accept that you are human and have human rights.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “Well it was probably overkill to put an elected, state running, genocidal dictator on the masthead of the article, no?”

    Uh, no… The hate speech Hitler fed to the media and normalized and very real, very awful consequences for Jewish people. Lest we forget.

    Anyway, first you complained about my writing, but then switched gears and claimed it was not in fact my writing that was the problem, but an image illustrating someone who used propaganda and hate speech to justify violence against a group of people. So it seems to me your aim is to invent reasons to condescend to me, anonymously on the internet. How fun!

    “The facts about the events are important. It is not working out very well to say a woman was beaten up by a group of men when in fact a woman was punched in a scuffle by another woman. Don’t cry wolf when the silencing of debate is the problem. When the misogyny online is extreme and you have illustrated that well.”

    What on earth are you talking about?! A woman *was* beaten up by several men. This is concerning. Feminists have very real, very serious concerns about the way this discourse has very quickly become a defense for male violence against women. The fact *you* don’t seem to take this seriously says far more about you than it does about us.

  • Meghan Murphy

    No. It’s supposed to be about liberation for women — the group of people oppressed under patriarchy.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Psychological, and psychiatric associations understand that gender dysphoria exists. That doesn’t literally mean a male can become female simply by desiring it.

    Again, you don’t understand what gender is and you seem intent on refusing to understand. You can take on gendered stereotypes all you like, but that *still* doesn’t make a man a woman.

    • Christie Luv

      Why are you ignoring the differences between sex, and gender I just explained to you? I explained how trans women are intersex in sex, and women in gender. I explained how it’s scientifically found, how sex is all over the body, but you didn’t explain how what I said is not true. The psychological evidence that gender identity is not a choice supports the neurological evidence that it’s biologically based. Some transgender people take on gender roles because growing up in a society that associates gender roles with a certain sex people attach that to their gender identity, but it’s not necessary for gender identity to have gender roles. Many transsexuals say, I was born in the wrong body, or I’m a woman trapped in a man’s body. That’s what it’s essentially about beyond gender roles. If you want to make it into something it’s not you’re hurting people because you want to keep an ideology made by uninformed people in the 60’s. They were humans capable of making mistakes.

      • Meghan Murphy

        I’m not ignoring what you’ve said, I’m telling you that you are wrong. Why are you ignoring what I’ve explained to you about gender?

        It’s not possible to be ‘born in the wrong body.’ You were born with a body. It’s your body, whether you like it or not.

        • Christie Luv

          ” Psychological, and psychiatric associations understand that gender dysphoria exists. That doesn’t literally mean a male can become female simply by desiring it. ”

          We are not saying males become females by desiring it. Sex is your anatomy, and gender is the sex you relate with. So when we say trans women are women we don’t mean their body. I explained in my first post that sex is male, female, and intersex, while gender is man, woman, he, and she. Transsexuals are intersex in sex, and women in gender.

          Gender Dysphoria does not mean psychologists are saying transgender people shouldn’t express themselves, or transition. Instead that’s the treatment they recognize as vital to our mental health. I can give evidence for that. We simply are mentally harmed when we can’t express our gender identity, and that’s what they mean by dysphoria.

          • Meghan Murphy

            Transwomen aren’t women, then. They are men emulating or desiring to be women.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Of course trans identified males perpetrate violence against women. What planet are you living on? What makes you think that male socialization and entitlement disappears simply because a man decides he wants to grow his hair long and wear a dress?

    “Seriously, what harm have they done you?”

    Good god. Pay attention. I have explained in numerous articles how gender identity presents a challenge to women’s sex based rights. Now it is being used to defend vaw and hate speech.

    “How can you justify talking about these people with a picture of Hitler, when they are among the most marginalized, most oppressed, most maligned people in our society?”

    Because Hitler used propaganda and hate speech to defend violence against an entire group of people. What happened when we dehumanize people is that it becomes much easier to abuse them. This is a big deal. Keep up.

  • Omzig Online

    You know, quite frankly I’m surprised the show resonated so well with millenials and third wave feminists. I wonder if it’s because they’ve completely missed the point and think it’s about religious oppression.

    Still, I’m surprised they did not try to shoehorn trans people into the plot to make the show and its producers look ultra progressive. I have this sneaking suspicion that they may have tried, and that Margaret Atwood probably didn’t let them.

    • Stroke_Your_Own_Ego

      I think they must have missed the point. They understood it as being anti cis straight white man, and so they approved without giving it much thought.

      “Shoehorn trans people into the plot.” That would have been an unintentionally funny episode:

      Man in red dress and bonnet barges in on the handmaid’s training, yelling “I’m a fertile woman too, you can’t exclude me you cissexist bitches!”

      Man throws himself down on bed and sticks his head in a woman’s crotch. “How dare you complain about being forced to do this, all I ever wanted was for a man to ritually rape me to bare his offspring. It’s a compliment, duh!”

      Offglen gets persecuted for gender treachery. Man: “That’s not fair, I’m a lesbian too!!!”

      “Repeat after me: Trans. women. are. men’s. property!!”

      Man is about to get banished to the toxic wastelands: “Are you crazy, I’m a man, you can’t do that! Banish that ugly terf instead.”

      Lets be real though, a trans woman in the Handmaid universe would either be living as man, going along with it like the other men, or would be executed with the homosexuals.

      • Omzig Online

        Oh, and I know this was posted elsewhere on this site, but it seems kind of relevant, and it still makes me giggle.

        https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ciPszqk703k

        • Stroke_Your_Own_Ego

          Much needed comedy relief!

  • JingFei

    Yeah it was quite a purge. They got rid of every lesbian-hating sparklequeer editor and staff member. And wow, are they still bitter. I think it’s been over a year and they will *not* let it go. On Twitter AfterEllen is actually sticking up for women and lesbians ( which you know, is “literal violence” ).
    But yeah, there is really not a single mainstream type forum for lesbians alone. Even the Reddit called “ActualLesbians” is run by Trans women and bans every lesbians for wrong think – to the point that a second Reddit was able to form for banned people since there are so many of them.

    • Omzig Online

      Not super familiar with AfterEllen (because I’m not a lesbian), but it sounds like websites like this could benefit from a vetting system similar to the one that WoLF uses.

  • M. Zoidberg

    Feminism is for women. Men are not women. It is hateful to deny women the reality that we are oppressed due to our reproductive capacity, i.e. biology.

    YOU and those who deny women this reality are the ones who have the problem. Stop telling us the imaginary feelings of men are somehow more real than the tangible oppression women experiences daily due to our bodies.

    Stop gaslighting us!

  • Melanie

    Do you know how many women who’ve been molested as children, sexually harassed, assaulted, raped, beaten, endured the terror of domestic violence or even survived attempted murder are out there? Many women become feminists precisely as a result of their experiences of male violence. Can you imagine what it must be like for those women (or any woman) to receive vicious harassment, death and rape threats or even to be stalked or assaulted for merely expressing their opinion or advocating for the rights of girls and women? You get some perspective. There’s nothing reasonable or rational about this behavior. There’s no excuse for it. It’s classic male behavior to try to dominate and control women with the threat of violence. Your movement needs to get a grip. You’re not doing yourselves any favors.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “You are taking as central that feminists make up a universal category of people (white, straight, cisgender, women without dis/ability).”

    Where did you find this argument, Scottie?

    “This article isn’t a critical think piece but verbose gaslighting in which the author gets to sidestep the ways in which they perpetuate systems of oppression.”

    Do you know what gaslighting is? It’s a thing abusive men do to women to make them second guess reality, not trust themselves, and feel crazy. You know, kind of like when men claim to be women and demand feminists sit down and shut up while white dudes lecture us about our own movement.

    “If you want to have a conversation with trans and queer folks by all means meet us at the table…”

    You refuse to join the conversation, then when you do show up, you punch women…

    “Do not for a second pretend that you are doing us a favor by telling us about our own lives.”

    Back atcha, bro.

  • Meghan Murphy

    We don’t want to be ‘equal’ to men, we want a different system entirely. We want a system that isn’t based on domination and subordination. I agree that people should be free to live their lives however they like, albeit ethically and with consideration for others. So can trans activists please stop trying to destroy women’s rights and spaces?

    • ephena

      You want your own separate system? That’s not what we fought for. We fought to take our place in the world on an equal footing, not some weird segregation.

      • Meghan Murphy

        You are an idiot.

  • Yisheng Qingwa

    LOL, nah mate

  • Sparkle Green

    I agree trans activists must apply criticism of people’s dating or sex preferences to heterosexuals and to gay men as much as to lesbians (the whole thing being pretty fucked up I’d rather it was equally not applied tbh). I similarly believe RF should examine cis-women’s gender identity and identification as much as trans women’s. Why hold trans women so very accountable for a much wider damaging discourse? Certainly many women don’t identify with femininity (whatever that is) or gender stereotypes, but many many do.

    • Lynn

      Why should trans activists have the right to criticize anyone’s dating or sex preferences? No one should should be pressured in to sex they don’t want.

      RF do not believe gender is real, because it’s not. Sex is real everything else is just socialization.

    • Stroke_Your_Own_Ego

      We don’t place much importance in what people “identify as” or “feel inside.” We see things in terms of class politics. “Woman” is not an identity so much as a social class. It is the lot in life that we are born into by coming into this world as females. We are socialized as women, treated as women, taught to think of ourselves in a specific way. We are taught to perform femininity, whether we really want to or not. I don’t “feel like” a woman, I am treated as a woman and I was taught to be a woman. Yes, you could say I “identify” as a woman, but only because I recognize being a woman as being my lived experience.

      If you’re saying we should question and analyze why women want to perform femininity then not to worry, radfems have been doing that for decades and decades.

      Also, what are you referring to when you say “wider damaging discourse?”

    • Melanie

      “Certainly many women don’t identify with femininity (whatever that is) or gender stereotypes, but many many do”.

      A lot of women conform to gender stereotypes due to the social pressure and coercion that they’ve experienced since they were girls. Their situation is very different from that of a male who says that the very gender stereotypes that oppress girls and women literally make him a woman inside. The former is a response to sexism. The latter is sexism.

    • catlogic

      We are not “cis” because there is no such thing. We do not have “gender identity,” ditto. Gender aka sex roles are the hierarchy which places men in the dominant and women in the subordinate position. Claiming that “identifying” with that is what it takes to be a Real Woman is both victim-blaiming and classic projection by autogynephiles, who should keep their nasty fetishes to themselves. Likewise, claiming that women who don’t “identify” with our oppression are somehow not women (but never real human beings, either, aka men) is just more misogyny. Which is the core of the transgender movement.

  • Sparkle Green

    much of what you have written about the left is true, which frustrates and saddens me – personally it’s because I am so concerned about antisemitism that I’m motivated to ask that equivillancy with Nazism be reserved for very specific occasions.

  • Hekate Jayne

    I can accept transgender people. Why do you guys keep saying that?

    What I won’t accept is penis in private female spaces.

    That’s what this is about. That I don’t want to accept penis where it makes me uncomfortable, where I don’t want it.

    You want to force male bodies into private female spaces. Why am I not allowed to say no?

    What part of the article is incorrect? The rape and death threats? The males tweeting about punching/raping/killing women? What?

    • ephena

      Really? You think the whole of maleness comes down to a penis?

  • Zuzanna Smith

    Nah that just proves that “gender identity” is just personality and personal style and individual preferences for things.

  • calabasa

    Yeah, I knew I’d get flack for that. I am not unsympathetic to trans people, even though I would accept the argument that said sympathy may be harmful or enabling.

    I don’t think an inverted penis is a vagina, and I don’t think she is a lesbian. I would prefer that people identified as agender and didn’t physically harm themselves or trample on women’s rights. I suppose, though, that I am sympathetic to the degree of a dysphoria a person must feel to do that to themselves, and saying “she” about someone who has is simply being nice. I know others on here don’t agree, and I don’t expect them to. It’s not consistent with stated beliefs. However, my friend is a nice person off in her own world, not a transactivist, and I can’t bring myself to call her “he” because I know how much that would hurt her feelings, and I feel I would be using it jeeringly or cruelly. This is called “cognitive dissonance,” because I know and like this person (she is the kind of person who upon hearing someone yell at her “you’re so gay!” on the subway says “thank you!,” with real cheerfulness). Do some things about “her” trans narrative bother me? Yes. Is “she” male? Yes.

    I am still more sympathetic to someone like my friend (who was mentally ill enough to be compelled to alter her body) than a rabid fully male-bodied transactivist who makes entitled demands of women.

  • Sparkle Green

    ‘woke’ is Black American English and entirely grammatical for people who speak Black American English as their mother tongue

    • Wren

      Ebonics is so 20 years ago, dude.

  • kfwkfw

    You’re sick. It’s unacceptable. Do not brush that off.

  • calabasa

    To each her own. I think sex dysphoria can be real, and if trans people respected biological women’s rights and identities I’d have no problem with them. The issue for me is with the trans”women” who are still acting very much male, and with the left’s cooption of trans identity to further a dubious political agenda.

    • FierceMild

      The point for me is that we have clear evidence before us of what happens when we validate untrue things. Suffering, no matter how severe or truly horrible, does not turn men into women. Niceness does not turn men into women. I too believe transwomen genuinely suffer, but that doesn’t make them female. Denying reality isn’t kind. Trans women deserve the courtesy and kindness that all human beings are due, but no one can possibly merit altering reality to soothe upset feelings.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Oh yes! I do realize that men have always hated radical feminists/sm. Betty Friedan was not a radical feminist. Our sisters criticized her and NOW way back when for her position on lesbians. You are a white man so i find your efforts to paint basic feminist analysis as ‘white’ humourous. Men who believe they are women are not people of colour. Stop coopting the struggles of other groups to make illogical claims about feminists. Stop coopting feminist ideas to defend male interests.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Of course it is useful to point out when people claiming to be progressive are using propaganda and hate speech in an effort to dehumanize and justify violence against an oppressed group of people. That is the WHOLE POINT.

    Nice you feel safe. How nice. I don’t. Other women don’t. And your response is to lecture and condescend to them about how their legitimate fears of violence, rape, and death are ‘exaggerations.’

    They aren’t. The witch hunts happened. The Holocaust happened. Colonialism happened. Violence against women happens. These are the very real consequences of male supremacy and white supremacy.

    • Sparkle Green

      I’ve tried to reply to what you actually write. You don’t seem to return the courtesy.

      I will try to be more basic.

      You can’t teach anyone anything useful on the internet by using ‘Nazis’ as an example in an argument about something else.

      I get you are making valid points about propaganda etc. and how liberal feminists have adopted a ideology based on ‘gender identity’ where other discourse is silenced.

      But I don’t think the situation calls for invoking an industrial, state designed, genocide.

      So please don’t use it in talking about the very important issue of misogynistic posts on twitter etc. *because* I think this subject is important. I’d like people to learn about it with better examples.

      I think it’s bad politics to borrow too much from one specific oppression to another. It comes across as not understanding specific history or people. Or not caring. White people do this a lot. We should tone it down.

      • Meghan Murphy

        I think it’s very dangerous not to recognize patterns repeating themselves throughout history and think it is indeed why so many are letting this gender identity debate turn into a witch hunt on feminists.

      • Hekate Jayne

        You are plenty basic.

        You are being condescending and annoying, with your directives and explanations, including instructions on what is acceptable to talk about here.

        You have outed yourself as a dude. And an asshole.

        You were wondering upthread about will anyone discuss with you. This is why no one is. Since you can’t seem to figure it out.

      • Leo

        It’s valid to use Nazis as an example because thanks to transactivists, Radical Feminists are being equated with fascists (…plus Antifa are obsessed with calling basically anyone who disagrees with them a fascist), which is being used to justify actual violence against us. They can’t do that to us and then complain when we point out that transactivists are acting far more like fascists.Why don’t you go and ask THEM to tone it down?

  • Lynn

    i know. the first time i heard the term was on South Park, I honestly thought it was a joke it was so silly, little did I know.

  • Omzig Online

    “I don’t think being punched is the same as being beaten up.”

    Please don’t use Radical Feminism as an excuse to make qualitative differences between punching an elderly woman and beating an elderly woman. Maria had injuries all over her body. She was literally beaten in public. You are minimizing male violence against a woman and claiming it is part of “radical feminist” discourse.

    If you feel like no one is engaging with you about radical feminism, it’s probably because your argument is “critical of biological determinism,” and Radfems understand that our female biology literally determines our social position under patriarchy.

    Also, I am of both German and Jewish decent, and I found Meghan’s analogy to Hitler’s regime to be spot-on.

    Honestly, you really sound like an MRA troll in sheep’s clothing.

    • Cassandra

      OMG is 60 “elderly” now? 🙂

  • Melanie

    What is a female gender identity?

  • Males who consider themselves “lesbians” are erasing actual lesbians and committing homophobic harassment against us.

  • OMG. Transwomen’s brains are the same as women’s brains? Come ON.

  • Wren

    Sooooo it’s not really happening with any observable significance. Are you confused? Is this discussion just way beyond your pay grade??

  • Wren

    Haha, this is brilliant!

  • Wren
  • acommentator

    “Patriarchy treats trans women as women – so should RF”

    No it doesn’t. Nobody treats “trans women” as women. Nobody.

    That includes liberal straight males who pretend to believe this. Don’t listen to what they say, look at who they date. The only people involved with trans women are gay or bisexual men or heterosexual women who fell in love with them before they “transitioned.”

  • Lucy Casey

    ahahahahaha

  • Lucy Casey

    Someone with XX chromosomes who has the equipment to give birth function able or not.

  • Wren
  • Wren

    Ok, nope, I’m not buying your crazy sauce. Sorry.

  • Meghan Murphy

    The reason females are in the female sex class is because they are female. Women are treated like women because they are female. The source of the oppression is in being born female.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Ok, so you know you aren’t literally female. What is it you are arguing? I’m lost tbh.

    • Hekate Jayne

      He is arguing that penis can be ladypenis. And therefore, should be permitted in all private female spaces.

      Or else, we are bringing rape/assault/dying in a fire onto ourselves. Because until we clasp hands, form a holy circle, and chant “dicks are actually female”, we are Nazi bigots that kick puppies and literally kill kittens. Literally. With the literal violence of our bigoty words.

      • FierceMild

        Bigoty is my new favorite word. It’s somehow…Dickensian.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I understand what you are referring to, but that’s not my argument. I understand how you may have misunderstood the sentence on first reading, but that’s not what it means. It means, “It’s not a word women have claimed for themselves. Like, “slut,” “bitch,” “cunt,” “TERF” is a word imposed on women to shut them up, bully them, condemn them, smear them, humiliate them, and dismiss them.”

    i.e. stick a period in there instead of the dash and you’ll get it.

    • Anon

      Okay, so it wasn’t properly punctuated. You agree that many women do not claim any of these words for themselves. Some do, and that’s unfortunate. Most do not.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You’ve told me you’re not a man? When? What are you? You certainly look like a man…

    Also, nothing you are talking about has anything to do with the feminist analysis of gender and transgenderism… Can you please address the issues/subjects at hand and stop trying to derail?

  • Meghan Murphy

    How did I ‘mis-decribe the video’ in my coverage/the article above?

  • Meghan Murphy

    I know what equality means, thanks. If trans identified males support women’s rights, I hope more of you will speak out against legislation that erodes women’s rights and that you will defend women’s spaces and boundaries.

    • ephena

      You ask for that from people you would erase. The hubris.

      • Meghan Murphy

        What people am I erasing?

  • Cassandra

    Hey heebie jeebies, you’re congratulating your fellow MRAs for beating up a woman.

    MRAs: Living brain donors at your service.

  • Scottie Elton Bradford-LaMay

    Can we reel this in a bit? This piece is not about violence against women. It is not about domestic violence, it is not about sexual violence, it is not about the sexual objectification of women. This piece is about white cisgender women feeling they get to pat themselves on the back for exploiting feminism to attack queer and trans people, and further to say naming transphobia or heterosexism is the equivalent of physical violence.

    • Meghan Murphy

      This piece *is* about male violence against women. Not just ‘white women.’ All women. Again, stop pretending transgenderism has anything to do with women of colour. It’s weird and illogical. You are coopting struggles you cannot relate to in order to attack feminism, a movement that has always included and been led by women of colour, and erasing those women from the movement.

    • will

      No answer for JingFei, hunh? Ridiculous coward.

  • Hekate Jayne

    So when women weren’t allowed to vote, own property, have a job or a bank account, they could have just claimed a “male identity”???

    How did the males know who to keep education away from? How did the males know which people to deny rights to?

    You said:
    “the social attachment of subordinate status to females and dominant status to males…..”

    Who determines the “social attachment”?

    Males have decided who women are since the beginning of patriarchy. You males say what opportunities we are allowed, what we are permitted to do, what we are allowed to have and who we are allowed to be.

    And some of you have decided that you can actually be one of us. You have decided that we aren’t actual human beings, that we are just some mythical, magical lady essence that you can inhabit or mimic. You don’t care how offensive or detrimental it is to us. Because you don’t see us as human. As a class, you guys never do.

  • Cassandra

    And yet you have no qualms telling us how we should define ourselves (“cis” LOL) or oppressing us by demolishing our boundaries and acting like the source of female oppresion is open to interpretation. You’re just an MRA and *you* are the gas lighter. Go fuck yourself.

  • Cassandra

    Oh no you didn’t.

    Here’s a tip for ya Scottie brotatie: don’t come into feminist spaces and try to appropriate the lives of black women and lesbians with some vague reference to feminist history with which you try to fool people who may be reading this who don’t know any better that you have the foggiest notion what you’re talking about. It’s so slimy. And those of us who do know feminist history know that you’re a fool.

    And you have some nerve acting like you give two fucks about lesbians. I thought they were bigots for not being open to sex with males (people with a penis, that is). Isn’t having a sexual orientation bigotry nowadays? LOL

  • Lucia Lola

    “3, yes my response to violence says more about me. I don’t think anything excuses what was done at hyde park. I don’t think being punched is the same as being ‘beaten up’ – This is based on my observations about being beaten up and of other people who have been beaten up. What is happening on this issue is serious enough not to warrant exaggeration. This is based on me watching the video.”

    Here I was hoping I had come across someone who had legitimate criticism to this article. You claim nothing excuses what was done and yet proceed to place an anecdote on what you consider “beaten up”. Being punched isn’t the same. Extraordinary.

    A curious stance, considering how violence is demonstrably an action that escalates the longer it’s left unchecked. But yet, this is an irresponsible “exaggeration” in your eyes.

    I find your contribution sad. I won’t ignore you but I see you. Just another apologist.

  • Cassandra

    What in the hell are you even talking about?

    • will

      He does not really know what he’s talking about, but that doesn’t matter. What’s important is making women toe the line.

  • Cassandra

    Wonderful comment. Made me puddle up though. Men are such mother fuckers.

  • Cassandra

    Do as I say or die!

  • Cassandra

    Oh fuck off.

  • Cassandra

    You’re so right. It could have been the Pink Panther. Or just any random dude attacking a female person for no reason. He just came out of nowhere!

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t think I will be… I’m fairly certain that a decade or two from now, people will feel ashamed they went along with all this nonsense.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Scottie: again, the conversation around gender identity has nothing to do with people of colour. Stop using poc as a prop to make yourself look progressive. It is transparent. Just formulate an argument based on the words we are actually saying, as feminists, about gender.

    If you can’t make an argument that makes sense and is truthful, you won’t be permitted to comment here anymore.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Are you really not going to answer my question? Top notch trolling, bud.

    Anyways, clearly you’re a dude. This is stupid.

    • Scottie Elton Bradford-LaMay

      You are exploiting feminism to do harm. I’m stepping back. Shame on all of you, I hope your white sisterhood is powerful. I will never interject again, but if you attack trans women and faggots expect that we will respond.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Are you stepping back because you don’t want to respond to JingFei’s comment? And also because you have no arguments whatsoever? And because you believe that, as a man, women should sit down and shut up when you speak about their movement? Hmmmmm?

        • Scottie Elton Bradford-LaMay

          I’m stepping back because you are assaulting me. You are not simply a trans-exclusionary radical feminist, but a sexual predator. Fuck your feminism. I hope you find the white woman separatist community that makes you feel comfortable enough that you don’t need to hate faggots and trans women. I am done. Do not email me ever again. Fuck you.

          • Meghan Murphy

            lollolllolllllllllllllllllll

          • Rachael

            Assaulting? I do not think that word means what you think it means…

          • Anita Perry

            (1.) Why does Scottie make the assumption that everyone here is white? There are radical feminists and gender critical feminists of every race. Truth be told, most black women, whether or not they identity as feminists, aren’t buying all this transgender nonsense. It’s bad enough that trans colonize, threaten, and harass the living hell out of lesbians. It’s bad enough that they shamelessly co-opt intersex. Then, they try to co-opt civil rights for people of color. Pretty soon they will be saying that Rosa Parks was really a transwoman. Scottie looks white to me, so why does he call us all white woman? Transwomen (males) have been convicted of killing black women, even trying to burn the body of a black girl, and then we are all evil exclusionary white feminists. Currently, a white transwoman is on trial for killing an inter-racial lesbian couple and their adopted black son. See below.
            (2.) What does a man really mean when he says, “Fuck your feminism”? He is basically saying that men will define feminism, and what is and isn’t permitted to say.
            (3.) As to “faggots and trans women”, isn’t faggot a reference to gay as in gay man? Most transwomen who, by the way, are biological males with fully intact male genitalia are heterosexual. They aren’t gay. Transwoman Dana Rivers who was charged with the cold blooded slaughter of a inter-racial lesbian couple and their adopted son is heterosexual. Rivers is charged with killing a black lesbian and her adopted son, and then Scottie tries to imply that we are all evil white feminists. Transwoman Douglas Perry who was convicted of killing three women just last June in Washington State is heterosexual not gay. One of the three women that Perry was charged with killing was black. Transwoman Synthia China Blast was convicted of helping to kill a black girl, and dumping her body in a box before sitting it on fire. And, Scottie says we are evil white feminists who exclude people of color. Hell, transwomen are convicted of killing black women and black teenage girls. Damn all those evil nasty feminists who don’t want these violent killers of black women housed in women’s prisons. Transgender constantly appropriate and co-opt the heck out of gay men and lesbians. They continue to do this even as they make “TERF” death threats to lesbians. Transgender activists are so homophobic that they have the audacity to try to redefine homosexuality itself. Redefining homosexuality itself is the ultimate form of homphobia. For example, heterosexual males who think they are “women” are now lesbians, and FTMs who are attracted to males are no different than gay men. Males guilt tripping and shaming lesbians into having sex with them was what the offensive “Cotton Ceiling” was all about. Not only is transgender/queer theory misogynistic, it’s homophobic to the core. In homophobic counties like Iran, the government will pay for sex reassignment surgery, yet homosexuals are executed. It outrages me to no end when trans/queer always toss in gay with transgender. Transgender is not the same as homosexual. Stop colonizing the hell out of gay and lesbian.
            (4.) Feminists do not hate gay men and lesbians, and have always supported gay and lesbian. I’m sure everyone on this blog supports same sex marriage and equal rights for gay and lesbian. We are smart enough to know that “gender identity” laws harm women, and we aren’t afraid to speak the truth.

          • Anita Perry

            WTF is this? “You are not simply a trans-exclusionary radical feminist, but a sexual predator.” Meghan Murphy is not a sexual predator. Who has Meghan been sexually abusing lately? Speaking of sexual predators, biological males who torture women with electrical wires before raping them don’t belong in women’s prisons. Google, Richard, “Sherry”, Masbruch, but be warned that it is extremely graphic. Males who are convicted of raping little girls don’t belong in women’s prisons. There was a recent case in the UK where they sent a sick bastard who raped little girls to a women’s prison. I don’t give a rat’s ass if he identifies as a “woman”.

          • Melanie

            Oh the drama.

          • pyrite00

            What would the alumni and donors of UA think about THIS behavior from a doctoral student at their college? I may need to visit them and find out.

        • Meghan Murphy
        • Meghan Murphy
          • JingFei

            Omfg. This dude is like, a shining example of the hypocrisy and dishonesty everyone deals with when it comes to the Pomo Sparkle-heteroqueer cult.
            Also, classic male entitlement and rage LOL.

          • Meghan Murphy

            And the insane reversals/gaslighting?! Like, accusing *me* of ‘rage’ and ‘projection’? (I was so polite!) Then of being a ‘sexual predator’?? Like, unhinged for sure, but also behaviour that’s so common to manipulative abusers.

          • JingFei

            I’ve noticed SJW’s/TRA’s,Queercult people move from one insane unfounded, evidence devoid accusation to the next. It’s like I said in a previous comment, they just pull random stuff out of their butts, fling it at a wall and hope any of it sticks, hoping to dupe impressionable people who are too young, too dumb, or too lazy to do the work to discover the truth for themselves.

          • FierceMild

            Stop being so white and straight!!!!!!!!

          • JingFei

            I’m trying but it seems no matter how much I identify with being straight and white, people keep treating me like an Asian lesbian. Literal violence 🙁 . I also identify as being 5’9 but these bigots keeps invalidating me and asking me if I need something off a top shelf, or comment on how much leg room I have on an airplane.
            It seriously bums me out because they totes think they’re being friendly and helpful, as if they aren’t literally erasing my very existence every single time they look down to talk to me. If they were true allies they would be looking *up* to talk to me.

          • Do not ever email me here again! lol

      • Just Passing Through

        Why do you assume everyone here is white? Pretty damn presumptuous of you.

      • Anon

        So, you’re a typical violent, white male. Check!

      • pyrite00

        Does the UA know that you are making threats online, sir? I may be in Tucson soon, maybe I should have a talk with some of the administrators there.

    • Scottie Elton Bradford-LaMay

      You never asked a question. You have made nothing but allegations. You are a fascist exploiting feminism to rationalize
      your whiteness and heterosexism.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Whyyyyyyy can’t you make arrrrrrguments, Scottie?! Don’t they teach that at the University of Arizona?

        Please make one. Any one. What is your argument. Based on my words. What is the argument you are trying to make, with regard to the words I have written in the above article. I’m listening.

      • pyrite00

        Dude, just stop. You are being a complete fool.

  • ephena

    Her testimony was wrong. She completely mischaracterized the attack at speakers corner, and then ignored to many many people who condemned it.

    • Meghan Murphy

      I didn’t mischaracterize it at all.

    • CatherineTGWShark

      “Her testimony was wrong. She completely mischaracterized the attack at
      speakers corner, and then ignored to many many people who condemned it.”
      Are you capable of any paying attention at all? And do you have even the smallest amount of reading comprehension?

      The testimony mentioned was against Bill C-16 on 10th May 2017!
      I know that you haven’t bothered to watch the video but do try to keep up.
      Or maybe you aren’t just posting word salads? We all know that “TERF” is the new way to say “witch” so maybe you think that Meghan Murphy can see the future. And was thus able to “completely mischaracterized the attack at speakers corner, and then ignored to many many people who condemned it” on May bloody 10th!

  • Cassandra

    Actually, feminism is entirely about females. That’s the point.

  • calabasa

    Yes, I had the same experiences, though I was 6 the first time I was sexually harassed (inappropriately touched/kissed) by a man. I am literally not sure how many times I have been raped (a lot of which has to do with confusions about definitions of rape; should I include penile penetration only, or also digital penetration? Does oral violation count, or only vaginal and anal? And also, does it have to be forcible? Clearly premeditated? Or does taking advantage of a very drunk woman you know would never otherwise sleep with you count?) As for sexual assaults (not needing a stringent definition beyond unwanted sexual touching), I have no idea–dozens? Hundreds? Sexual harassment, ditto. I have also forgotten most instances of following and harassment, I’m sure.

    I’m aware that assault and rape-wise I am not the norm in most peace-time countries, particularly Western countries, thank God (at least I hope). The rest, though–the fear, following, constant threat, and threatening harassment–IS, unfortunately. I agree that only women can understand what it means to grow up as women.

    However, as Brenn described her sexual abuse by men as a passing transsexual in the post she shortened, I think she understands now and can imagine what that would have been like, and she knows what’s it like now, which is why she is sympathetic to us not wanting transwomen in our bathrooms as she earlier stated. I am on board with that.

  • Cassandra

    “Gender roles are what you do, gender identity is who you are.”

    Bull fucking shit.

  • Cassandra

    OMG are you saying that rape and death threats are “getting yelled at” ??
    Fuck you you fucking misogynist.

  • Morag999

    “Perhaps he finds accuracy scary.”

    This is just it. When confronted with accuracy, they automatically begin lying.

    They tell bald-faced lies, or they equivocate and prevaricate. Or they write sentences that are unintelligible, not because of common typos or errors in punctuation, but because they CHOOSE bizarre diction and grammar.

    It’s all about concealing the truth. Deception. Intellectual battery. It’s all about overwhelming and wearing down women who are seeking clarity and honesty, who are determined to defend themselves with truth.

    The most obvious example is how their comments are littered with “cis” this and “trans” that. These prefixes are used illegitimately to confuse the reader, to disguise the sex of the actors, to preserve the status quo, to reverse victim and offender. So their constant use requires constant de-coding and vigilance on the part of women protecting their own minds from lies and liars.

    Transgenderists and their allies always aim to deceive, even if for some of them this is an unconscious reflex. I don’t think that’s overstating or exaggerating. It simply can’t be any other way because the very foundation of the “movement” is a gigantic lie. And defending lies, as they grow bigger and bigger, almost always leads to a “need” for enforcement, for threats of violence or actual physical violence.

    It’s too bad that words such as “unwholesome” and “perverse” have been made unfashionable via association with religion and prigs. Come to think of it, that’s probably not a passive, natural evolution of the English language. Draining these precise words of their power to name and shame dishonest and dangerous people, to warn others away from them, seems part and parcel of the whole mess …

  • Cassandra

    Oh, you’re so right. Female people don’t live with extreme levels of violence at all. We just can’t imagine it!

  • Cassandra

    There is no conclusive evidence about any similarity between the brains of trans women and biological females. Stop spouting anti-science fuckwittery.

  • Cassandra

    “I gave evidence that transsexual women are intersex in sex, and women in gender…”

    You keep saying this but it has no meaning. It’s literally gibberish.

  • CatherineTGWShark

    It’s really is amazing.
    The way they aren’t even pretending to care about addressing actual (male) violence. Nope, they don’t give a damn about that. It’s actual feminist who have to point out that violence is really not a good way to go.
    But all those pro trans people commenting here? To them it’s much more important to yell and attack women for wrongthink and the terrible, terrible sin of failing to properly submit.

  • will

    The RCMP is a boys club that has, over the past decade, seen numerous reports of sexual harassment, sex-based hostility, rape and so on. So it’s unlikely that they will act honourably or responsibly regarding the threats made against Meghan.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-sexual-harassment-history-1.3453413

  • Rachael

    Calabasa, that’s an interesting point, actually. The “trendy trans” crowd (as opposed to people who genuinely seem to struggle with their own bodies) does seem very much linked with the special snowflake syndrome you see on social media. I wonder if this really is the identify crisis for teens in this generation (it was goth/emo/alt in mine). If so, then I do empathise with them, however the stakes are so much higher with this than with “depressed kid wants to change their hair colour and get s piercing” and so therefore should be explored.

  • Hekate Jayne

    I was wondering about the violence that the raisins were suffering.

    Won’t anyone think of the raisins?!?!

  • will

    I think that the two are not mutually exclusive. A man I have known for decades, who had always behaved relatively decently (for a middle-class straight white guy) developed a bipolar disorder and, especially in his mania phases, behaved with outrageous misogyny and abuse. The misogyny and abuse were real and he is responsible for those behaviours, and he is also mentally ill. I feel both sympathy for his illness and disgust at his misogyny that became visible due to his illness.

    • FierceMild

      I hear you and I fully recognize that mental illness and violence are not mutually exclusive. However, this refrain of “he’s psychotic!” is something we hear every single time a violent male conforms to the logical conclusion of masculinity. As if his perfectly rational behavior in the context of our culture is some kind of personal psychotic break outside of time and space, without pattern, and wholly contained in that one man’s mental illness.

      • foamreality

        True. But masculinity IS psychotic. Its a crazy fucked up idea. Mental illness can be born entirely out of the environment. I really think most (if not all) men are mentally ill. Masculinity is the illness. The question is where does it come from and how does it infect so many men . I’d say it requires class analysis here: namely rich and powerful men (and even some women) abuse powerless men who are told they can get power by controlling women. This doesn’t really satisfy men. This leads to insanity. Women get killed. Men become women. Women become men. And we all get a little bit of stockholme syndrome.

        Jiddu Krishnamurti said it best: ‘It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a sick society’

        • FierceMild

          Hmmmmm. What you and Calabasa and will are saying makes sense. I’m having difficulty with the need to protect people with mental illness from being lumped in with violent men as if their disorders are not burden enough and they might turn violent at any moment and the resonant truth of masculinity as diagnosable. How do you three think this could be addressed? You all seem to have some clarity of thought about it.

  • will

    “All I would say to those women who are directing hate towards me ”

    Who here has directed “hate” towards you? Nobody has done that.

    Some of your comments demonstrate that you are oblivious to the realities that women (humans born into a lower class than the one you were born to) contend with and they have pointed that out to you.

    Disagreement is not “hate”.

    If you are serious about “fighting for” us, stop playing at being victimized when we speak directly to your classism. That’s an anti-feminist tactic, whether you do it with awareness or not (and I do think that in your case it’s the latter).

  • CatherineTGWShark

    Dude, there is a mountain of evidence of transwomen abusing, violently attacking, sexually assaulting, raping and killing women and girls.
    There is a study proving that tw commit violence at the same rate as any other men. Yet here you are bleating about it just being one, mysterious, case of “woman got punched”.

    Also, lay off the gaslighting. There is more then one video of the attack. We have all seen those men (however they may “identify”) swarming and attacking a women.
    So, yeah nobody is buying your minimization and violence apologia.

  • CatherineTGWShark

    If a women is in forest, and there’s nobody around to “treat her as a women”; does she stops being a woman?

    OMG, hold the press! Forests are transphobic!
    xD

    p.s. Your “definition” is pure embarrassment.

  • Meghan Murphy

    What on earth do you think the words “beaten up” mean?? Good lord. I certainly have not exaggerated what happened by any stretch of the imagination, yet you seem to believe I should be playing this down. Indeed, what else is there to say? Your argument, whatever it is, simply does not make sense to me.

  • Meghan Murphy

    *curtsies*

    • Hekate Jayne

      Ah, yes. The curtsy, as we all learn in the mandatory class of “white femininity 101”.

      • FierceMild

        My dad always curtsies in his bathrobe. It’s hilarious.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Did you actually read what Stavvers wrote? https://stavvers.wordpress.com/2017/09/14/terfs-are-using-nazi-tactics-dont-let-it-work/

    Her argument isn’t actually based on Nazi tactics, it’s based on repeating unfounded myths and making vague comparisons. Let’s review:

    “Now, transmisogynistic bigots have rather a lot in common with Nazis already. They both share an unhealthy fascination with trans people’s genitalia, where trans people pee, concern trolling about safety, and a general desire to see trans people eliminated entirely.”

    Liiiike, A) What does any of this have to do with Nazi tactics, and B) What does any of this have to with with what actual feminists are saying about the gender identity debate?

    Here’s more:

    “It seems, in their cosy discussion groups about how to ban trans people from public life, the transmisogynistic bigots and the Nazis have also been exchanging tactics.”

    That’s LITERALLY the extent of her ‘argument.’ So, not only is she a liar, but now I think you are a liar.

    Nothing has been ‘misreported.’ I published a very detailed report, based on numerous interviews and video footage [http://www.feministcurrent.com/2017/09/15/historic-speakers-corner-becomes-site-anti-feminist-silencing-violence/]. And somehow this is EXACTLY THE SAME! as some blog making a few completely baseless accusations about feminists? I mean, Stavvers doesn’t even seem familiar with actual Nazi tactics, never mind what feminists do and believe. Weak, man. You can’t just keep repeating the same thing over and over again and hoping it will become true.

    • Sparkle Green

      did you just call me ‘man’?

      honestly

      I’m presuming you already know Godwin’s law (and its riposte) – and anyway you started with Hitler so it doesn’t really apply.

      Yes there are important ‘lessons’ to learn from the history and present conduct of fascist organising.

      But I don’t think you had call to use them.

      But after several replies my thinking is you feel you have the right to take any point from any struggle any time.

      Like others are using ‘womanface’ on the thread

      Or chucking around ideas about mental illness.

      So overall not a politically considerate space for women as a class.

      after all

      • Meghan Murphy

        Yes, in the same way I say things like “Hey, man, don’t kill my vibe” or “Duuuuuuuude that is fucked!” to literally everyone.

        Honestly. I am v v chill.

        Re: the rest of your comment, as I’ve said before, yes, I believe it’s important to look to history to see if we are repeating patterns.

        This space is one of the most ‘politically considerate’ spaces for women as a class on the internet. Hence all the women.

        Not really sure what your issue is. You seem to be looking very hard to find something to be ornery about, but having trouble.

      • thebewilderness

        Excellent trolling! I give it a six.

  • Meghan Murphy

    It’s so insane, right?? I mean, demonstrative, sure… But totally crazy.

    • Omzig Online

      I think it’s genuinely creepy that this guy is about to earn a doctorate in Women’s Studies. That means he may hold actual sway in the Women’s Movement in an effort to advance his male-centered agenda. Have you considered contacting the PhD committee where he studies about his behavior? They may really want to take a good, long look at his unhinged male rage and entitlement before they award him with a PhD. His argument reads like a case study for why men should never be allowed leadership positions within the Women’s Movement.

      • Meghan Murphy

        I do too… I find it quite scary.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Feminist ideas are violence and responding politely to explain our moderation policy is sexual assault. Get it??

    • Hekate Jayne

      Any asshole that would call a woman a sexual predator based on nothing except his hurt feels over his own blinding ignorance is not only unhinged, but is obviously a person that has never had to be concerned with his own personal safety.

      In other words, male.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “Multiple people on this thread are misgendering Scottie.”

    How so? Even he refuses to explain this.

    “Trans people have been pointing out for a long time that being inaccurately named has been leading to violence against them/their deaths.”

    Yes, you have been trying to push this narrative. What’s missing is the actual evidence that this is is true.

    “The comparisons in this article to Nazi Germany is making it sound like people are being oppressed and killed for holding trans-exclusionary political opinions, and that’s just not the case.”

    The comparisons are to show that dehumanizing people and using propaganda to justify violence against a group of people is dangerous.

    “Yall are not getting killed for your political views.”

    But people are saying we *should* be killed for our political views. Also, the witch hunts were about targeting women — specifically women who spoke up or did not behave according to gender norms.

    “A few have you been punched, and you are getting threats like literally every other controversial figure (left right or otherwise) on the internet.”

    Oh my god. Please do not try to play down violent threats from men against women. That just makes you look like an asshole.

    “Getting punched for having oppressive opinions is not oppression.”

    Feminist ideas are not oppressive. Unless, of course, you’re an MRA.

  • FierceMild

    I don’t want to be unkind, but I think when you say this:
    “…I’ve noticed at this and at other blogs is that if you buck the tide of the comments and in a sense the piece (even if tactfully), you can expect your post to receive far fewer up votes than all the other comments.”
    You’re noticing the same kind of response that people get in face-to-face conversation if they walk up to a group having an intense discussion and instead of joining it make a completely unrelated remark. It’s not that what you say isn’t valid, it just isn’t what people are talking about at the moment.

  • Meghan Murphy

    When men punch women that *is* misogyny. Also, what is it you think feminism is? What you call ‘TERF’ is nothing more than basic feminist ideas and, really, basic ideas about human bodies. Can you explain exactly how feminist ideas make gender non-conforming people the target of violence? Especially considering feminists are gender non-conforming themselves? And are targeted for that? For example, through being labelled ‘TERF’ and threatened or punched?

  • Meghan Murphy

    No, that’s not what I meant. I meant that these words are similar to ‘TERF’. I apologize that the sentence may have been unclear, but I’ve explained how it was intended to have been read in another comment: http://www.feministcurrent.com/2017/09/21/terf-isnt-slur-hate-speech/#comment-3535898776

  • marv

    The central issue you are not addressing is how to release the constipated patriarchal shit out of yourself – menema.

  • Hekate Jayne

    You said:
    “These women are not getting punched because they are women, they are getting punched because they are scapegoating other women for issues of sexism.”

    Thanks for letting us know that women deserve to get punched for “scapegoating” males (pretending to be ladies).

    Also, that 60 year old woman was filming and bothering no one when 3 males decided that she deserved a beating. I get that you support male violence on women. You are being very clear.

    You said:
    “………..make them (ladymen) targets of violence.”

    So you also believe that women cause males to be violent.

    Got it.

    You also say:
    “Trans women are not the enemy, they are not the cause for oppression of women, and their identities as trans women are causing no one harm.”

    Males are the oppressors in patriarchy.

    You are correct in saying that these males claiming to be women doesn’t harm me. Words are not physical assault, as a sane and reasonable person, I understand that being reality.

    What does harm me and other women are dudes demanding that they are permitted to do whatever they want, whenever they want, just because they want it. You want male bodies in private female areas, and we say no to that.

    We are allowed say no. When males ignore our boundaries, you prove yourselves to be dangerous. And the fact that you twist this into being “violence” and “exclusionary” is not only mind boggling nonsense, it is just flat out ignorant.

    This entire thing is nothing but you males trying to force us to submit through manipulation, falsehoods, outright lies, and threat of violence that is rapidly turning into violent acts. The issue here is that you seem to think that these ideas and actions will actually make us capitulate, as it has in the past.

    What we now understand about you is that you are obviously going to choose violence no matter what we do, and you will defend it and claim that we made you do it.

    Just like you are doing here.

  • Just Passing Through

    Yep..exactly

  • Anon

    You are a man. Clearly.

  • Anon

    You are equally white, and male.

  • FierceMild

    Dude, men are the source of women’s oppression, transwomen are men. No scapegoating necessary.

    • Morag999

      Exactly.

      We have to continually translate their deliberately obscure language in order to push their lies out of the way and bring the truth into focus. The sentence you’re referring to, for example:

      “These women are not getting punched because they are women, they are getting punched because they are scapegoating other women for issues of sexism.”

      should read:

      “Men are not punching women because they are women, men are punching women because women are scapegoating men for sexism.”

      This is the absurdity, the pure nonsense, that this trans-crusader is trying to make us swallow.

  • Morag999

    “These women are not getting punched because they are women, they are getting punched because they are scapegoating other women for issues of sexism.”

    Stop calling sick men “other women.”

    Stop pretending that nobody in particular is threatening and punching women.

    Stop constructing ugly sentences and an alternative reality wherein women just happen to “get punched” by some mysterious force of nature when they just happen to be out in public protesting the erosion of their female-specific human rights.

    If you think that queer men have a right and a duty to silence disloyal and disobedient women via intimidation and a show of male strength and force — and, yes, yes you do think so — just say so. Just say it, and be honest and clear, you mealy-mouthed coward.

    But, no. You choose THIS as your opening statement, because you are about to tell a bunch of lies, so best try to get readers confused and mystified right from the get-go:

    “Oppressed identities are not identities that are easily chosen, and they are not identities that inherently harm other people.”

    I mean, what is this nonsense? I’ll tell you: it’s one lonely comma with a pile of garbage to its left, and a pile of shit to its right.

    • Cassandra

      Lol lol lol!!

  • Stroke_Your_Own_Ego

    Not to give anyone an aneurysm, but this is an ugly little thing that I think needs to be dragged out from under the rug. I hate to wonder how many of the shits on twitter get turned on from spewing death threats. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/96833f4ecd9e8969c2c825273b157701a877e1ede945ef0cec87a31ad363d1ab.jpg

  • FierceMild

    Right?! Use of the F word too, like that’s fine.

    • Zuzanna Smith

      Well he is “queer” after all, so it’s totes ok, even though most likely he’s got a wife and two kids.

  • Anita Perry

    “Trans women are not the enemy, they are not the cause for oppression of women, and their identities as trans women are causing no one harm.”

    Transwomen are, in fact, biological males. They offend at the same rate as other males. Most are heterosexual, and most still have their male genitalia. There isn’t anything that “cis” men haven’t done to women that transwomen (males) haven’t done to women. And, I’m talking torture, rape, and murder. “Gender identity” laws allow male sex offenders to claim transgender status where they can access women’s homeless shelters. A sexual predator in Toronto was granted access to two women’s homeless shelters where he assaulted homeless women. He called himself “Jessica” Hambrook and said he was transgender. That is all it takes now. When transwomen (males) murder or rape women, they demand tax payer funded hormones, and in some states are sent to women’s prisons where they can terrorize more women. No one is ever going to convince me that males who torture women, or rape, or murder them should be sent to women’s prisons. Last November in Oakland, a transwoman, Dana Rivers, was charged with killing a lesbian couple and their adopted son, arson for trying to burn down their house, and possessing metal knuckles. In January 2017 in Berkeley, queer activist student Pablo Gomez Jr. who uses “they” pronouns was charged with the stabbing death of one woman and the attempted murder of another woman. Last June, transwoman Douglas, “Donna”, Perry was convicted of the murder of three women (two white women and one black woman). Other examples can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzwMJAFWLtQ

    and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAFcYTwn33A

  • Alienigena

    “where cis women have special needs because of the biology of their bodies”

    These are not special needs they are feature of female biology and all biological females (lesbian, straight, trans-identified females, celibate (e.g. nuns or others), sexually active individuals) have to avail themselves of these services so as to prevent and treat potential disease (e.g. cancer).

  • Morag999

    I know, right? All abusive men just loved being triggered. Unfortunately, I think Scottie found his time here quite exhilarating and purgative. Ugh.

    Anyway, “queer” in its current usage and sub-culture is, I gather, primarily heterosexual in nature and more or less synonymous with sado-masochism. Not just sexually, but psychologically and politically. These are men who are seeking new ways that they can choose and manufacture their own “oppression” which allows them to act out, to vent otherwise socially unacceptable, regressive behaviours and desires. Naturally, this is bad news for women (and children). We know it, and they know that we know it. That’s why they’re getting worse, and sounding more and more deranged.

    • Meghan Murphy

      “These are men who are seeking new ways that they can choose and manufacture their own “oppression” which allows them to act out, to vent otherwise socially unacceptable, regressive behaviours and desires.”

      Indeed. So disagreement or teasing = assault/sexual assault. I mean, the gall of a woman to mock a man! It’s basically like being punched or raped, right?

  • Hekate Jayne

    Isn’t it funny.

    Dudebro demands that we “reel it in” and states that this article full of verified rape and death threats is NOT about male violence against us.

    Then hysterical manbaby screams sexual assault and assault because we openly disagree with what he is saying.

    I guess the lesson here is that words are intimidating or threatening only when women are speaking them. And males declare it to be so!

  • Hierophant2

    There are a lot of entitled white men threatening radical feminists with death, yes. This is not new. You’re not telling us anything new. Men always hate real feminism.

  • Hierophant2

    Fuck you and your pedestaling bullshit. Women don’t want to be on your pedestal. Trafficked women and the pay gap are not lies, you delusional fool. You must be allergic to reality.

  • Hierophant2

    “You choose to have your opinions that scapegoat trans women, exclude them, and make them targets of violence.”
    You are correct that radfems exclude transwomen, because transwomen are men. They do not exclude transmen. And radfems are not making transgender people targets of violence. The trans cult is making radfems and lesbians targets of violence.

  • Wren

    Yo, but grapes in transition (to raisins), or GTRs, need our full and unconditional support cause it’s a super vulnerable time in their lives. Just please be mindful. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2df6bfd9c172c84fd799652e7831063593757fbfc115060e9f291434f5e8d28e.jpg

  • foamreality

    Praise be. Blessed be the fruit. Under his eye. Wait. So are ALL those who rethink their position evil turfs or just one small group?

  • foamreality

    These are women forced to live lives they didnt want. Nobody in the west is forced to be trans. (although some children are now). Also none of them are men. Duh.

  • foamreality

    What if a Saudi woman says that Western women have male privilege
    because they are allowed to drive and leave the house unaccompanied

    No saudi women has ever said that. In order for a saudi women to question why they don’t have the same privilege as western women , or as you put it ‘women with male privilidge’ they’d have to know they were looking at western women, and not western men. And therefore would still know they were women! Your question is tautological/circular .

  • Cassandra

    Holy fuck is your brain pickled in pomo gender juice.

    • Morag999

      Heh!

  • FierceMild

    You see, women’s oppression is based on “simplistic” ideas like sex. So when you say that’s not the basis of your feminism we are in complete agreement because you have no feminism.

  • Virginia Howard

    Yes, “white femininity” sounds Victorian to me. Related to: The Eternal Feminine o_O Which no doubt was a Whiter-than-White fantasy, given its Nietzschean and Goethean roots: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_feminine

    • Morag999

      Yes, and also “The Angel in the House.” The figure Virginia Woolf murdered in the form of a feminist essay.

  • pyrite00

    Or that we practice femininity!

  • pyrite00

    Men, getting it wrong since forever when the issue is feminism.

  • pyrite00

    No, being anti-women is telling women they must lie and call men women.

  • pyrite00

    Problem with making an authoritarian statement is — what are you going to do when people call you on it and refuse to follow your orders. You don’t have the power to enforce your dogma on others so sucks to be you.

  • pyrite00

    Who is doing all that raping and murdering of men in womanface? If only there was some characteristic that those rapers and killers had in common so you could at least berate the right group of people….

    • FierceMild

      There is though. None of them are vegans.

  • Stroke_Your_Own_Ego

    “Refusal to accept the identity of trans people is the basis of their oppression”

    This says a lot right there.

    Women are oppressed because we are systematically exploited, abused, and denied the right to own our own bodies. Trans women are oppressed because laws, people, and media don’t always validate their self image.

    When men kill trans women, they kill them for being gender-non-conforming men, the same reason they kill gay men, or otherwise “effeminate” men. Men don’t kill trans people by misgendering them, they kill them the same way they kill anyone else, with horrible blind force.

    It’s been said many times in this comments section but I’ll say it again: We’re on the same side in wanting to end male violence. Stop fighting us and work with us to stop the people who are actually committing violence against trans people and women.

  • pyrite00

    I use the term womanface because a man putting on a show of what he imagines “womanhood” to be, a caricature of woman based on sex role stereotypes is pretty near as disgusting to real women as a white person putting on black face paint and pretending to be a POC is to many POC. Don’t like my take on that? Too bad.

    • FierceMild

      Yeah. The concern trolling around the blatant similarities between racism and sexism is very frustrating. When men do the very same things to women that whites do to black people and we point that out we’re then told to stop “appropriating” black experience. It’s completely nonsensical.

      White men dressing and acting as stereotypes of black people = oppression.

      Men dressing and acting as stereotypes of women = true womanhood.

      It’s enough to make you scream.

  • pyrite00

    What is this “right to exist” nonsense? Men exist and nobody says they don’t exist. But “exist” does NOT mean that we have to coddle every delusion or fantasy that men come up with.

  • pyrite00

    You started out OK then went right off the rails. An adult human female is of the sex that produces the large gametes for our species. That was true before humans started practicing class oppression and it will be true if we abolished sex role stereotypes completely.

  • pyrite00

    “trans women” are male and they offend criminally at the same rate as all other men (as a class). So it seems that it is reality that you find scary.

  • FierceMild

    Word

  • pyrite00

    Not sure what you mean. Just noting that in blocking about 100 abusive transaboos, the largest group was white men, the second largest was white women and then TIMs. I just did not see too many POC supporting this trans nonsense in that particular set of comments.

  • Hekate Jayne

    You said:
    “My feminist isn’t based on simplistic ideas about biological sex, I base my feminist values on sociology and the principle that oppressed people should be listened to in regards to their own oppression, and what I see is that trans women’s experiences are not being listened to at all.”

    Women are oppressed on the basis of our biology. So, you erase that factual reality, dismiss our bodies as “simplistic”.

    Women are oppressed by males. Yet, you dismiss us, while simultaneously stating that we aren’t listening to males. Why do you think that I owe a male my time, attention, energy, etc.? I mean, I understand that males demand that, and that they have included our forced babying of them and coddling them into the gender role that they force us into, but I don’t really give into to male demands. I am gnc that way.

    You said:
    “Like nothing that trans women are saying about their own experiences is being validated and this is so similar to the way that men discount women’s experiences…..”

    I would address this, but I am too distracted by the explosion of 1000 irony meters.

    You said:
    “Refusal to accept the identity of trans people is the basis of their oppression and what makes them a target of violence and overt discrimination.”

    Once again, the male violence is caused by feminists. So feminists attempting to retain our safe spaces causes males to murder each other? I make them a target because I say no to penis?

    I don’t have to accept anyone else’s identity. I don’t care if males call themselves whatever. I covered this extensively in my original reply to you and yet it is like you completely ignored it because it doesn’t fit your narrative.

    You know, for centuries, people knew who are male and who are female. Males kept us out of education, jobs, turned us into legal property, kept us from voting, etc. Males refused to allow women any rights or freedoms at all at times.

    And all those many years, the males knew exactly which people to rape, to beat, to buy and sell, to impregnate, etc.

    Just like they do now. And you are driving the oppression of women in defense of males, and you are claiming confusion at the complexity! You guys are determined to make me believe that you are just complete and total self hating idiots. I am starting to believe you.

  • pyrite00

    This guy having diarrhea of the keyboard is just loving it because he is soaking up the attention he is getting from real women. He is putting on his own little gender opera and using us all as state props for his grand show. Meghan has the patience of a saint for not shutting him down.

  • Hekate Jayne

    Agreed.

    I don’t buy their confusion, anymore. They just seem so endlessly confused about everything. It is a deliberate act.

  • FierceMild

    I used to have one for a pet but my neighbor said it looked weird so it killed itself.

  • Zuzanna Smith

    Stop blaming women for men’s violence which they choose to do on their very own. Nothing women are doing is making men choose to be violent, men know that transwomen are men, everyone is aware of it, it’s not a revelation to anyone.

    The 60 year old woman was punched for not doing what men demanded of her which was to shut up and put up with anything men dish out and you are very aware of that fact you disgusting misogynist.

  • Cassandra

    We aren’t spreading misinformation and we aren’t helping to create “suicidal rates.” (How can rates be suicidal, btw? Do rates take anti-depressants?)

  • Hekate Jayne

    Male squared.

  • -Jane Don’t-

    Transwomen have dicks. Biological women don’t. Transwomen are transwomen.

  • Meghan Murphy

    And after all that, he accuses me of ‘rage’! I mean, the sexism is so overt it’s amazing.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Who else *actually* reported on this story with the detail and number of interviews I did? Did you read this or no? http://www.feministcurrent.com/2017/09/15/historic-speakers-corner-becomes-site-anti-feminist-silencing-violence/

    Your condescension is ridiculous.

  • Meghan Murphy

    lol. And you don’t engage with arguments, but rather get stuck on your own ideas, regardless of whether they fit with the conversation at hand. Throughout this conversation, you’ve leapt from point/accusation to point/accusation, in the hope one might stick. Now, you’ve resorted to complimenting your own intelligence as a conclusion. I hope you haven’t given up on counselling?

  • FierceMild

    your patience is impressive.

  • FierceMild

    its true. In my younger days I used to make friends with one big bruiser of a dude as my “check casher” and then goad the thin-skinned dudebros to see if I could cause an aneurism. Ah, youth.

  • FierceMild

    Pathogenic Douche-baggery, almost exclusively a male trait.

  • calabasa

    Did you understand my comment?

  • kfwkfw

    Yes, all they care about is their dick & seeing their dick invade undisturbed places. It’s like having a toy, truly. Fuckin idiotic.

  • Wren

    Hi go fund page will probably tell you who he knows, at least two years ago:
    https://www.gofundme.com/yf7ypgw

  • Leo

    I don’t quite like to pick on them given this is men’s fault as per usual, but I wonder what would happen if we called the LibFems TERFs every time they ‘slip up’, which is inevitably (because it’s impossible to talk about feminism otherwise) very often? Would they come around, or just slip deeper into the PoMo-ish nonsense? Might be worth a go given it can’t get much worse…

    • Meghan Murphy

      I think this is a great strategy, ftr.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Ok, I see you’re now going full tumblr sjw. Hitting all the marks, hitting all the marks. You’ve lost credibility here, I’m afraid.

  • Melanie

    Apparently it’s ok for transgender people to say that ‘misgendering’ them is literal violence. But its not ok for women to call violence against us literal violence. When women experience actual violence – from three male attackers no less – we’re just exaggerating.

  • Hekate Jayne

    Male violence is the single biggest issue for us. And males are experts at perpetrating it, covering it, ignoring it, dismissing it, all while they insure that they can continue to terrorize us. They seem to lack any sort of creativity or imagination, with the exception of violence (and the threat of it) directed at us.

    No radical feminist woman would dismiss this assault. Whatever they do to one of us, they can do it to the rest of us.

    My first husband broke one of my teeth with one punch. And he didn’t knock me down that time. Maria is lucky that she wasn’t killed.

    • JingFei

      I’m so sorry you endured such a traumatic event. And what you say is bang on. It makes me wonder if some of these commenters that claim to be female are actually female? Or perhaps first year Gender Studies students, having been sheltered from anything even close to abusive men. No woman I know would look at what happened to Maria M and shrugged it off as “that’s not that bad!”. No. It resonates with us. We see it, and it makes us remember when that happened to us. It makes us ponder what we know could have been the possible outcomes of that situation, and as always, unless a woman is hospitalized, or dead, it’s just “not real violence”.
      I’ve been assaulted by men (has not every woman?) one sexual assault I did not escape, but I got smarter, and the next one I did escape. I surprised him and physically fought back after martial arts training. I stayed in my house for 5 days unable to leave out of fear and trauma because I *knew* what could have happened to me again. I knew how close I came to that line. And I couldn’t tell anyone because of cultural shame, that I somehow was at fault.
      No one aside a few close friends took it seriously. Why? Because I had “won” and “it could have been worse”. Like, how often do we hear that?
      People like Sparkle Green and friends, are the first ones to fight the good fight over “misgendering”. Because somehow, someone looking at a male and seeing a male, using a pronoun- is “literal violence and trauma”. But they are the first to utterly dismiss, minimize, roll their eyes up at the trauma of being a female attacked by a man. Let alone THREE.
      How would one react looking at that footage and seeing that happen to their own mother or grandmother? And what would you say to that mother/grandmother? “You weren’t REALLY beaten gramma, you were punched and stuff- stop being so transphobic”.
      I guess they think we’re all pros at that now, and hey- it’s not someone’s feelings being hurt by not calling them “zir” so whatever!

      • Hekate Jayne

        I am sorry for the male violence that you endured.

        And aren’t we getting fucking sick and tired of saying that to each other.

        You are spot on. In the book, “why does he do that”, lindy Bancroft talks about how male abusers always, always give themselves away with their attitudes when crying wolf and claiming that women abuse them.

        He says that when a person has suffered real physical violence and abuse, that the most common response is empathy, because no sane, decent person would dismiss the feelings of another victim.

        The first reaction of a liar is to dismiss and minimize. He had pages about dudes claiming that women had abused them and lied about it as a way to attempt to discredit the women that they had abused.

        But that’s male privilege. Patriarchy believes males over women, claims that we make it all up, while it simultaneously never happens.

        We have dudes in dresses saying that they are women, and they are accommodated because they are male. We also have a woman being beaten by 3 males, and the video doesn’t matter, because the males are the only important thing.

        I am disgusted.

    • FierceMild

      Hekate, I wish we could just go Boondock Saints on them.

      • Hekate Jayne

        Agreed.

        In fact, I think that males are going to make it unavoidable.

  • catlogic

    Me too.

    Not attracted to delusional (and with the men, usually AGP and/or narcissistic) people who think they can change sex, or are the other sex? “Transphobe!”

    Yup, fine.

  • Cassandra

    Trans people conform to societally imposed gender mandates of the opposite sex. They would be gender non-comforming only if they went against gender comformity for their sex while remaining their sex.

    “GNC trans person” is an oxymoron.

  • FierceMild

    Absolutely. And now the term ‘Intersectional’ is being actually appropriated by white men from black women and everybody is totes fine with that ’cause trans.

  • Kiwipally

    As Disqus doesn’t have a pm feature, I’ll do this publicly. I love your comments, for some of them I wish I could give you more than one upvote.

    • Omzig Online

      Why, thank you so much!

  • FierceMild

    Trans exclusionary is not accurate. Transmen are women. Transwomen are men. Womanhood is not a club or a cookie we’re denying transwomen.

  • FierceMild

    Men use suicide and threats of suicide as a weapon to control women allthe time. I will not submit, I will not be made to speak in hushed and concerned tones because a man threatens suicide if I won’t validate his feelings…again.

  • Hekate Jayne

    Can we just take a minute here to really just bask in the absolute idiocy of being male to MALE?

    Is that like doing male twice? Or is it somehow becoming twins? I mean, he says that he isn’t male, but he is somehow maling twice?

    I am not Male! But I am male 2 times! Eventually, I will male to MALE to male, and I will trans right on into a baseball team! Or a boy band!

    And we are somehow not really women, and we are only doing it once.

    What the fuck is even happening. I don’t qualify as an individual woman, but Scottie is a plethora of male. Fuck that.

  • Virginia Howard

    (Delicate, tinkling laughter)

  • Hekate Jayne

    Radical feminism means something. And it doesn’t mean what you think it means.

  • Cassandra

    Nope. He’ll never have “female bone structure” or any of the other traits on your list. The only thing that makes any bone structure female is being attached to a female.

    And I hate to burst your bubble, but his shoulders are similar to those of a linebacker’s. He doesn’t pass.

  • ✧ʕ̢̣̣̣̣̩̩̩̩·͡˔·ོɁ̡̣̣̣̣̩̩̩̩✧

    maybe we should call ourselves the chair-lifters
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW0ZTvRCS1o

    • This is one of the most hilarious things I’ve seen in some time.

      And the explanation is so easy! If you’re a bit nerdy at least… So just in case someone hasn’t figured it out yet, excuse me nerding out:

      Women generally have wider hips and therefore more weight in the hip region; men generally have wider shoulders and therefore more weight in the shoulder region. When a woman bends forwards, it’s no problem; the weight in her hips keep her body balanced on her feet. When a man bends over, his bulky torso which he bends over his body causes him to almost tip over already without any additional weight, so he can’t lift even a relatively small weight (like a chair) without falling on his nose. He would need very heavy hips to keep his balance on his feet.

      End of nerdiness…

      And thank you Meghan for writing this direly needed article!

  • ✧ʕ̢̣̣̣̣̩̩̩̩·͡˔·ོɁ̡̣̣̣̣̩̩̩̩✧

    why not just call them terfs right back? cuck, terf, snowflake, straightbian– all nonsense words designed to cast aspersions to varying degrees. i know the origins of each, but they’re all still ridiculous.

    during our school years, my little brother called me the b-bomb, so i hurled it right back at him, and i hissed it in the most obnoxiously feminine caricature of venom i could muster. what teen boy would take that as anything but an implication of homosexuality? that’s right, i weaponized my little brother’s own homophobia against him. and guess who never called me that again.

    you could take literally any tweet made by these batshit cultists and RT with #FoundTheTerf and send them into a sputtering spiral of rage and denial. their “can’t -evens” will be CAN’T-EVEN-ER!

    and then, go further– make up more silly acronyms/hastags — #FoundTheFret #FoundTheFert #FoundTheFlurj #FoundTheTorp #FoundThePlop #FoundTheNarp #FoundTheYarp

  • calabasa

    Hey will, sorry for having to reply to you here about another blog, as I got banned for my comment on there.

    I just revisited that post on NotSorryFeminism, and saw your comment (which was great). My comment on that post was polite, and mainly took the author to task for berating survivors who did not agree with her (I should have also taken her to task for glorifying suicide. Her response to me was not only was pure verbal abuse but used a suicidal-sounding rape victim who posted on there saying yes, she wished she’d died to score points, absolutely horrific, IMO). Notice how she responds to other survivors who disagree with her on there (telling them they are shaming suicidal people, to stay away from them as they would not make great allies, swearing at them, telling them believing life to be better than death and therefore rape not resulting in death to be better than death was a “shitty logic fail,” etc.)

    Since she deleted my comment and blocked me from replying to her awful reply to it, I sent her one email (one) telling her she was behaving like a terrible person for blocking reasonable comments and telling a rape survivor “fuck you, I fucking hate you” and “you’re terrible” for disagreeing with her. That she assumed I sent you, used my real name and threatened to dox me to employers (for saying she was being a terrible person)? is rather frightening, as is the weird implication that she thinks I emailed her more than once.

    Your question (of what the point of her post was) was a good one. Like me you probably assumed she was running a real site, since she makes it out to be a feminist site, but she’s not. It’s just an online diary, and she is mentally unwell, in a way which makes her extremely unpleasant to others.

    Her comment policy would be funny (the hypocrisy, considering her behavior toward commenters) if it weren’t so sad (that behavior).

    I just wanted you to know I only emailed her once, in reply, and also warn you to be careful as apparently she threatens to dox people for offending her.

  • Melanie

    I can understand if somebody is struggling with medical expenses and it’s out of pure desperation or it’s a charity or something. I would be mortified to ask people for money so I can get a boob job etc. Not that I would ever get a boob job. But geez, some of the things people expect other people to pay for.

  • Hanakai

    No, Jazz fka Jared Jennings is male in every single cell of his body. Every cell of his body contains the Y chromosome, the biomarker of maleness. He is male, period, and to call him female is delusional. Please think about getting professional help, as you seem to be delusional as well.

    Also, Jazz Jennings, fka and nee Jared Jennings, has basically had his body destroyed by trans ideology and practice. By giving this boy puberty blockers and other hormone therapy while he was still a child, Jared “Jazz” Jennings has been rendered permanently sterile. Furthermore, when he sought to have his penis surgically mutilated and transformed into an invagination to create a fake vagina, the surgeons told him that it would not be possible, because the puberty blockers and hormones he was given have resulted in a teeny penis too small to be used to create an invagination, there is just not enough tissue there.

    How many other children have been destroyed because of the trans lobbying by this misguided child and his publicity-hound parents?

  • Hanakai

    Mental illness does not typically excuse an individual from responsibility for their actions or their crimes. With most mental illnesses, people still basically know what is going on and still exercise volition and choice.

    So-called transsexuals are mentally ill — those who truly believe they are of the other sex are absolutely delusional; and the rest have one or more diagnosable conditions. But those illnesses or conditions do not excuse them from committing criminal behavior.

    In the US, mental illness only excuses one from criminal behavior and supports a verdict of “not guilty by reason of insanity” if the mental defect is such that the person is unable to distinguish right from wrong and is unable to understand the nature of his actions. Most mentally ill people know that murder and rape and theft are wrong and are able to refrain from committing these crimes.

    Explicating the mental illnesses of claimed transsexuals does not shame other people who suffer from mental illness. These days, most of the American population has one mental illness or another; indeed, people are proud of their illnesses, they identify with their illnesses and the victimhood and attention it affords them, and are happy to announce their perceived pathologies upon meeting. Among millennials and college-aged, mental illness is considered the norm, depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, PTSD are quite popular. Healthy happy normals have become a distinct minority.

    • foamreality

      The problem is that mental illness is ill defined . Its on a continuum with sanity. Sanity itself is ill defined. Richard Dawkins wrote an excellent science essay called The Discontinuous Mind. He ponders if black gulls and white gulls the same species. They can’t mate with each other but they can mate with other ‘grey’ gulls that can mate with either black or white gulls. They are both absolutely different species and also definitely the same. As with much of our language and understadning, the problem isn’t that our definitions are rubbish (as many believe). The problem is our discontinuous minds need to think more continuously. We need to accept the lack of definition IS a useful way of understanding the problem. And seeking to define it means we miss (or dismiss) the useful information in overlaps. Sorry for the digression, its just that I think mental illness deserves sympathy in all its forms, including in everyday masculinity. When we single out mental illness as something thats apolitical we miss an awful lot. Mental illness can and often is born of political means. Mark Fisher wrote (correctly in my view) about how psycologists and shrinks treating depression ignore politics at their peril. The two aren’t separable. Patriarchy is both a cause and sympton of mental illness (and according to the masses who accept patriarchy: sane).

  • foamreality

    Being raised with male organs gives you male privileges, ie not being treated as a woman. This does prevent you being a woman. Because they are inextricably linked together as the definition of man. It doesnt matter whether you think they should or shouldnt be. I dont think being black makes you inferior to white people, that dosnt mean you wont be treated as such. Just as racism comes from the immutable fact of the colour of your skin (you cant just not be black), gender comes from the immutable fact of your sex (you cant just decide you arent female). Is president obama black or white? Isn’t he mixed race? You could say he is white just as equally. But if hes treated as a black man, in any way that matters: politically, emotionally, culturally, right or wrong, then its no good for him to just say ‘actually i’m white’. For as long as society sees him as black and racism exists, then people will think of him as black and treat him as black. What he wants to be treated as wont change unless he changes his skin colour. But thats not the problem to be solved. The same is true for gender. You are what you are perceived to be. It shouldnt matter to be a woman, it shouldnt be a bad thing. But it is. Because it is perceived that you SHOULD suffer. When we change our material bodies to escape negative cultural perceptions we are accepting negative cultural perceptions. Thats not feminist.

  • Meghan Murphy

    How are transwomen women? What is a woman?

  • Meghan Murphy

    “The denial of trans identities causes psychological abuse, and feminism has historically recognized psychological and emotional abuse as violence. Feminism has historically recognized the denial of marginalized experiences as oppression.”

    Do you not see the irony of your statement, here? Try this:

    The denial of women’s material reality/gaslighting *is* psychological abuse, and feminism has historically recognized psychological and emotional abuse as violence. Feminism has historically recognized the denial of marginalized experiences as oppression. For example, the dismissal of women’s basic human rights in order to accommodate men’s feelings, egos, and desires.

  • Meghan Murphy

    The fact that you feel so completely entitled to come here and advocate for violence against women is gross. What wrong with you?? Take your misogyny elsewhere, please.

  • Heidi Hall

    I know this is an older post but I wanted to respond. The porn infected abusive ex husband insisted that my refusal to submit to his “needs” was sexual abuse.

  • Minerva Conatus

    Please explain how standing up for our human rights (and the rights of all women and girls), including our rights to privacy and safety, is “oppressive”.

  • Matthew Johnson

    TERF stands for “trans exclusionary radical feminists”. If y’all claim to be feminists but exclude transpeople? I’m gonna call you a TERF. Don’t like it? Tough.

    Trans people are people; they deserve our basic respect and human decency. Deal with it.

    EDIT: Go ahead and block this comment for disagreeing with your worldview, I don’t even care.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Feminism doesn’t ‘exclude trans people,’ feminism centers females and opposes gender.

      Curious to know why you feel entitled to smear feminists at a feminist website tho?

    • Minerva Conatus

      Nobody here is denying that “trans people are people; they deserve basic respect and human decency.”

      What we ARE denying is the notion that a man can become a woman or a woman can become a man. That is literally impossible. It’s akin to saying that I can become a giraffe. Sure, I can make a suit out of giraffe-patterned material, or I can even tattoo my skin permanently with giraffe spots. I can choose to eat nothing but leaves. I can insist that other people refer to me as a giraffe. But I will never be able to actually become a giraffe.

      The category “woman” and the category “man” mean something; neither of them are catch-all categories that anyone or anything can belong to. Turning them into catch-all categories is dangerous, for a variety of reasons that I won’t get into here.

      Also, you seem to have neglected to actually read the article that you replied to. If you had read it, then you would realize why calling anyone a “TERF” is cruel and hateful.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Thanks for explaining the “TERF” thing, Rich. Much appreciated.

    (An aside: I generally identify myself as a socialist AND a feminist, rather than explicitly a socialist feminist.)

  • Amy Avalon

    To the author , I would ask several questions so as to understand a certain type of feminist’s viewpoint on people who are described by general society as transgender.

    1) Are you OK with those born male presenting in a feminine manner as you present in your avatar (lipstick , long hair , eye makeup, foundation, big toothy smile ). If not why.

    2) Are you OK with those born male changing their bodies to look more female. Facial feminization for instance.

    3) If your face was suddenly masculinized, would you consider getting facial feminization.

    If you are not OK with number 2 but would consider feminization of your face if it was suddenly masculine (#3), how would you rationalize this position as fair.

    • Morag999

      You ask what’s “fair.” Fair to whom? To men, of course.

      Men just wanna have fun, which means men doing whatever they feel like, when they feel like it, and everyone else can go to hell. And women, including feminists, should actively support that male prerogative. And if we don’t build you an all-hours playground and become your cheerleaders? No fair! Feminism is no-fairsies!

      But I can tell you what’s fair, for real. Women asserting that women are fully human and female at the very same time. That’s fair. That we are individuals, not an eternal essence, or an idea that men can imitate and embody. That we are female with or without make-up, and with or without costuming. Like, honestly, we’re female all the time, from cradle to grave, and not just when the mood strikes. Whether or not we identify with femininity, or appear feminine to others, has nothing to do with it. Because female just IS.

      Naturally, you’re fixated on hair and make-up and surgical constructions. Because you’re shallow. And because your understanding of half the human race is much worse than shallow. You mistake the cultural symbols and wacky ideas for the thing itself. And the thing we’re talking about here is people — girls and women.

      So how about YOU be fair to us and drop it? Drop the notion and the LIE that men can, with a handful of materials, and their boyish imagination, construct the female they’ve always dreamed about. OK?

    • Kiwipally

      You have a complete lack of understanding about feminism, i.e. female liberation.

      1. It depends. If the presenting in a feminine manner is used to mock or insult women, then no feminists are not okay with this. If you’re asking whether men can wear skirts if they want, that’s a racist question that ignores cultures where men don’t wear shorts/trousers.

      2. Feminists are against anyone changing their bodies. A woman is a woman, irrespective of whether any of her features would be considered “masculine”. A man is a man, irrespective of whether any of his features would be considered “feminine”. Beauty standards, which is what you are implicitly referring to even though I don’t think you realise this, are patriarchal and feminists fight against them.

      3. Nobody’s face is “suddenly” masculinised. Nobody woke up in the morning to a face that was masculinized. You are using emotive and factually incorrect words to try to make a point.

      And men can piss off with their faux “but my face/body should be (more) feminine” faux concerns. Men have abused women, both mentally and physically, all through history when the women have looked “too masculine” for their tastes.

      And nothing you have typed, literally nothing, has shown how a man can be a woman. Which, as feminists know, is impossible.

  • Morag999

    That’s a good idea. You should look at it. You could start with opening your eyes.

    • Have any links or references?!!! Or is this “mountain” only in your imagination?

  • Meghan Murphy

    “No. The alternative is not ‘feminist’. Feminist is such a broad term.”

    No it isn’t. It means something quite specific. Feminism is a political movement aimed at liberating women from male supremacy/patriarchy.

    “TERF is used to speak about people who specifically refuse to respect transgender people – men and women – and actively contribute to the oppression of that minority group.”

    lol no. Please don’t lie. Feminists do not oppress trans identified people. Disagreeing with ideology is not the same as ‘refusing to respect’ or ‘actively contributing to oppression.’

    Please make arguments in good faith or move along. This kind of trolling is unproductive.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “Feminism is a political movement aimed at achieving full social, political and economic equality between all genders.”

    No dear. This is a women’s liberation movement. Stop trying to redefine our revolutionary movement to include men. “Intersectionality” does not mean “center men in feminism,” it means understanding that many WOMEN are oppressed in more than one way, based on class and race, as well as sex.

    Excluding men — the dominant class of people under patriarchy — is not ‘discrimination’ any more than excluding white people from the political efforts of people of colour to combat white supremacy is ‘racism.’

  • Leonie Zurakowsky

    Radical feminists do not discriminate between any classes of women and are intersectionally inclusive of all women. We simply consider that as trans women are men, they are not part of liberating women from patriarchy (except that we’d like to give up their patriarchal behaviour). We believe in their full humanity and their equal rights as a class of men and that they have their own movement to achieve that without taking away the hard earned rights of women.Trans men are women and are thus included in the liberation of all women.

  • Omzig Online

    You seem like a nice enough person, and I’m sure your heart is in the right place, but saying that feminism is about equality between “all” genders is unbelievably tone-deaf and obtuse. But I think you meant it as a let’s-all-join-hands-and-sing-kumbaya kind of statement, so I’ll give you a pass for being a little naive and probably new to feminism.

    To say that feminism is for “all” genders is like shouting “All lives matter!” after yet another black person gets shot by the cops.

    Saying that feminism is for everyone is like running through a cancer fundraiser shouting “Some people have much worse diseases than you! All diseases should matter!”

    Calling feminism a movement for everyone is like looking at your neighbor’s burning house and saying “That guy’s house over there is much more flammable than yours! All homes should matter! Firefighters are for everyone!”

    Please stop saying that feminism is for everyone. It is not. Feminism is a movement to liberate females from the sex-based oppression that we experience at the hands of males. Nothing more, nothing less. We are NOT here to make sad, confused males feel better about owning a penis, or to make sure they feel pretty wearing lipstick.

    But as females, we always get roped into doing everyone else’s emotional labor, don’t we? When males put on makeup and talk about feeling sad and “oppressed,” we feel somehow responsible for kissing their psychological boo-boos. Our world has conditioned us to do this. But trust me, the sooner you learn to reject doing the emotional labor of disturbed, narcissistic males, the better. Let them make their own movement, and build their own spaces.

    I noticed that you used the word “intersectional” to describe why you advocate for males intruding in our movement. This term was coined by an African American woman to describe how being both black and female acted as a dual axis for her oppression. You may want to reflect on that for a while before you post another comment about including males in order to appear more “intersectional” in your feminism.

    Meanwhile, please don’t ever let anyone make you feel guilty for making females your only priority in feminism.

  • kfwkfw

    The unofficial umbrella of GNC people just means they do not fit gender stereotypes, are uncomfortable with gender stereotypes, etc. Simply, lots of people are uncomfortable in this male-dominated shitty society. Because it’s loud & in your face & bullshit & oppressive. We all go about it differently…eating disorders, a goth phase, more feminine, more masculine, promiscuity, celibacy, identifying as ___, on & on.

    Only one group of “uncomfortable-with-gender” people are bullies, get their way through threats, intimidation, silencing, and violence, and dismiss everyday violence against women as less important than misgendering…that is transwomen. You are not oppressed, look how much sway you have. Transwomen can be violent against an elderly woman & it’s hurriedly re-focused more as a pity party for the trans! WHAT. Entitled males controlling media’s image of their made-up victim status.

    No, no, no…I, a person with compassion & empathy, stop at the violence. And I ask what happened here? I search for answers. It’s reminiscent of shit I’ve seen my entire life, so you’re not exactly blazing new trails. Male on female violence is disgusting & inexusable…but here you are. Shut up about your victimization in the face of someone else’s. It’s like the White House saying Roy Moore’s accusations are troublesome, yet still endorsing him & painting him as a witch-hunted victim. Don’t gaslight me dude. You preach gender colonization…just look at you.

  • Erik Victory

    A man diverts his usual routine of discussing legos, gi joes, and comic books to tell women what women are.

  • Erik Victory

    So when “feminist” writer and “woman” Jacob Tobia, in an article for well-known “feminist” publication Playboy writes,

    “While many of my cis women friends are trying to figure out how to drain out a swamp of unwanted male attention, I’m stuck in a desert trying to suck water from a cactus…So boys (and girls and everyone in between), I’m consenting to being objectified. Next time I’m on top of the bar, I want you to look at me. I want you to take in every inch of my towering legs,”

    repeating the phrase “I want to be objectified” seven times, are we to go ahead and say that by your definition, Jacob is not a woman?

    When male atheist redditor cliché-cum-Woman Extraordinairre Zinnia Jones bemoans the fact that absolutely no man’ll give him the gaze, temper-tantruming his way through another underhanded phobia-suffixed shpiel, is he confessing that he’s not a woman, by your definition?

    Their experiences, as they self-report them, betray the one thing they are not: treated like a woman. If you decide to toss ’em back up here into the mens room of patriarchy, I’ll let them know that it’s cool if they want to wear a dress and stuff, just like the radfems have been telling them.

  • Serai 1

    Perhaps you should read a little history and discover just WHO you owe your “feminist” credentials to before mouthing off about who “deserves” to be called a feminist.