11 ways men can respond productively to #MeToo

#MeToo has encouraged some men to post about their misogynist behaviour online, but they need to move beyond social media confessions.

Earlier this week, Meghan Murphy offered a few suggestions as to what we might ask of men, in light of the viral hashtag, #MeToo, which aimed to remind the blissfully (or stubbornly) ignorant about the ubiquity of sexual assault and harassment perpetrated by men against women everywhere.

Some men have responded by acknowledging that they participate in misogyny. Some men have admitted to being guilty of harassment or sexual assault. Some men have apologized for letting other men get away with this behaviour. But, while these men may mean well, these kinds of social media responses don’t necessarily constitute productive action. As such, the Feminist Current team has compiled an (incomplete) list of suggestions for men who would like to respond to the problem of male violence against women in a productive way, beyond virtue signalling online.

1) Sit with how many women in your life have publicly disclosed that they have been sexually assaulted and/or harassed this week, and let it make you uncomfortable. Avoid a defensive “not all men” response. Even if you haven’t personally sexually assaulted a woman, this is part of our culture, therefore you are responsible for working to challenge and change the fact that, worldwide, one in three women have been victims of physical and sexual violence and almost all of this violence is perpetrated by men.

2) Stop treating women and girls as “pretty” first. This means avoiding complimenting girls and women on their appearances first and foremost. Many of us do this without even thinking (we start early, too, telling little girls they look “pretty” or commenting on their outfits), but doing this reinforces the notion that being viewed as attractive or desirable is the most important thing a woman or girl can be.

3) Similarly, start paying attention to the way you look at/view women. If the first thing you do when you see a woman on the street is scan her up and down to evaluate her fuckability, stop that.

4) Stop treating all women as potential sex partners, rather than simply as people who are interesting or fun. If a woman wants to be your friend, this is a good thing, not a fail. Take “friendzone” out of your vocabulary and just replace it with the word “friend.” Women do not become worthless just because they won’t have sex with you.

5) Refuse to consume pornography or pay for sex. The sex industry says that women are things to be bought and sold, used and abused by men. Both pornography and prostitution reinforce the idea that women are for men. These industries sexualize rape, violence, and oppression. Regardless of whether or not a woman “chooses” to participate in this industry for survival, the overall effect of the sex trade is to dehumanize women. Figure out ways to challenge/talk to other men about this.

6) Have you treated women badly during sexual encounters? Acknowledge this and apologize to the woman/women you hurt. Do not expect a response. Do not expect to be forgiven. Do not expect anything at all. Don’t ask for anything from the woman/women you have victimized or hurt. Don’t make excuses. Just own your behaviour and apologize. And never do it again.

7) Quietly fund feminist events, media, and organizations. You could, for example, donate your pay gap money for the week (13 per cent of your wages) to an organization that directly supports female victims of male violence. You don’t need to brag about this on social media — the point is not for you to be rewarded.

8) Volunteer to be part of the clean up crew for a feminist event. Volunteer to cook. Volunteer to help with childcare. Do whatever else feminists ask you to do so that their event can be a success.

9) Learn to listen. Avoid dominating conversations. When you meet a woman at a bar, are talking to female friends or colleagues, or when you are talking to your partner, for example, practice active listening and pay attention to how much you are interrupting/speaking/inserting yourself into conversations. Are you asking questions? Listening to the answers? Hearing what women are saying? Men spend a lot of time talking over/at women and need to spend more time listening, as males are socialized not to be aware of the space they take up in the world. This is just one example of how male entitlement manifests itself. This behaviour discourages men from empathizing with women and working to better understand women’s experiences.

10) Do not neutralize issues that are not gender neutral. It is not helpful to insist that male violence against women is a “human issue.” It is not helpful to say that “rape culture is genderless.” It is not helpful to say you’re against “all violence.” Yes, men experience violence and abuse at the hands of other men, but that doesn’t negate the fact that male violence against women is systemic. Responding in this way is essentially “All Lives Matter-ing” women. #MeToo is about holding men accountable for the violence they perpetrate against women, and in order to effectively address this, we need to name the problem and address its root.

11) Understand that, as a man, you will never fully be able to relate to what women experience on a day-to-day basis, under patriarchy. There has not been a single day in the history of the world that a woman has not been raped or beaten by a man. Women live in fear, every day, of male violence. Women’s lives are shaped by rape culture and the male gaze in all sort of ways, big and small, from body hatred, to PTSD, to choices we make about work, travel, relationships, clothing, socializing, and more. Believe us when we tell you about those experiences. Believe us when we tell you it is a big deal. Believe that we aren’t simply being dramatic or seeking attention. Believe us, even if you don’t fully understand. We aren’t pouring out our trauma online for fun.

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  • Robert Gonzalez

    This is exactly what men need to hear. They need to be held completely accountable for all their misogynistic beliefs and actions, both past and current. They cannot be sympathized with and they cannot expect apologies from their victims. It’s sympathy from culture that lets them escape their actions. It’s time that women get the empathy and sympathy they deserve.

    Once again, a very powerful article from Feminist Current. I love it.

    • FierceMild

      “They need to be held accountable…”

      Don’t you mean we?

  • fxduffy

    Men who respond to women or feminism have similar problems, at one focused level, that women who respond to feminism have. Male pro-feminist groups back in the 1970s, perhaps the only time they ever existed as an actual social movement (as opposed to scattered one issue groups), often split up over the same issues that divided Second Wave feminists.

    Pornography/prostitution viewed as oppressive male sexual institutions like rape and incest, was often the cause of splits within these men’s groups. Those men who insisted on including them in their organizational work lost out in votes and numbers to those men who preferred the more hip and academic rationales which were to soon fuel the whole “pro-sex” movement within feminism. Men also gave many psychological arguments to buttress their support or neutrality regarding porn/prostitution.

    So there were men then and men now who are sympathetic to feminists, but to selected ones, to those they agree with who to them are moderate, intelligent, normal, liberal, not extreme–and heaven forbid, not radical.

    And, of course, radical is what “me too” is about or has to be about if it’s to make a permanent mark.

    • Hekate Jayne

      That drives me crazy.

      Males will support feminism, so long as it is about them, their wants and needs.

      And then they threaten to withdraw support if we become too demanding.

      I always wonder what support they are talking about withdrawing. They give us exactly zero support, and then threaten to remove it? What the fuck are they even talking about? That is an insane level of stupidity.

  • Robert Gonzalez

    I think my initial reply to you was marked as spam somehow. I’ll try to shorten it up this time.

    Sadly, everything you said is right, Hekate. Men are rewarded for playing stupid. We’re seen as sad man/child hybrids that are incapable of understanding women, unable to do housework and inept at anything that requires responsibility. We are richly rewarded for being like boys and even seen as “adorable” for expressed immature behavior; after all “boys will boys.”

    You would think that men would take offense to that. You would think they would fight vehemently against such an image that’s an attack on their manhood. Do you know why they do not? Because it benefits them completely and actually is part of the manipulative toolkit that men possess. It plays into their hand and makes men look foolish and less intentional in their actions. If they don’t know what’s going on, how can you blame them? This fakery allows men to fool and manipulate women and take advantage of the uneven power dynamic that the Patriarchy affords them. In fact, the only time you’ll see men try to fight that image is when it suits their struggle to be right about something. I’ve seen meninists try to use the sympathy card about how men are popularly portrayed as oafs, just to prove that feminism is evil and man-hating.

    Men do understand the harm they do to women. It is not purely biological in basis, and their misogyny is intentional. They are also aware that they lose advantage when a woman wakes up their tactics and calls them on it. In those moments they fear they’ll lose their advantage. On the Internet this has led to doxing, groups attacks and trolling. The harder they fight back against you, in my experience, the more they know what you’re saying is truth.

    Of course that matters little in a society like this because a man can simply pick up and leave and start over somewhere else with people who don’t know the manipulator that he is. And there’s actually hope in the fact that men do these things intentionally. It means that, like me, they can realize what they’re doing and wake up to all the damage they’ve done or are still doing to more than half of our species. They can wake up and be decent human beings. None of us are automatons or complete slaves to biological determinism. Radical feminism is the only form of feminism that I’ve seen that reliably demands men to account for their actions and inactions. Radical feminism is the answer to destroying Patriarchy.

  • Caddy

    Thank you so much for linking that Andrea Dworkin speech. It has moved me to tears.

  • Omzig Online

    I know I’m being cynical here, but I don’t think we’re going to see too many men donating anonymously to feminist causes. I wish women-centered charities required a brief, anonymous survey to track how much money is coming from male donors.

    Men typically like to appear philanthropic in order to:
    a) get laid and/or
    b) mitigate the damage they cause and distract attention away from their misogynistic actions.

    So asking them to donate anonymously undermines their only incentives for giving in the first place.

    • lk

      “I wish women-centered charities required a brief, anonymous survey to track how much money is coming from male donors.”

      I think this would be very interesting to see how many males actually donate to female-centered charities.

      What’s that saying? If you want to know whats important to a man, look where he spends his money.

      I think a lot of men like to shout about respecting women, being feminist and etc…but if you asked those men to give you concrete examples of how they help women…….many of them could not give you one.

  • lk

    “Stop treating all women as potential sex partners, rather than simply as people who are interesting or fun..Women do not become worthless just because they won’t have sex with you”

    I was seeing a guy and he began pressuring me into sex…(what I should have done was told him to fuck off) but I tried to explain to him that I thought we should get to know each other better and see if we developed the kind of feelings for each other where we would want to have sex.

    He basically let me know that he didn’t want to waste his time….

    I was honestly confused by that.

    I was really shocked at the idea that someone would think it would only be worth spending time with me if they were putting their dick in me. What a sad way to live your life..only being interested in people if you can use them for your sexual satisfaction.

    • Meghan Murphy

      How juvenile!

    • Amy

      Cmon now, they don’t treat all women like sex objects, they also use women as free labor/maids/cooks. Because a “woman’s job” isn’t valued with an actual salary and it’s beneath men and their valuable time to do that kind of work (ok on a tangent I know, but had to point that out)

      • Hekate Jayne

        But coddling/babying grown males by doing their laundry, cooking their meals, waiting on them like the demanding toddlers that they emulate, etc. fullfils our “feminine” nature.

        They are doing us a favor, you see, by allowing us to live in servitude to them. They created the tiny box of “femininity”, and then told us exactly how to do it. And when we escape the box, males forcefully shove us back in there.

        Because they are helping us stay in our natural place. That they created. As their domestic and reproductive labor. They are so generous and caring! Feminine gender roles are all about women being happy.

        It is absolutely NOT about males being manipulative, lazy, ignorant, entitled, or demanding. And it certainly isn’t about them stealing our labor for free. That is what the males tell me. So superior! So smart! They would never lie.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You might be surprised at the number of men who donate to/support FC, actually. It is, of course, majority women, but the number of men who donate is significant.

    • Robert Gonzalez

      I’m so happy to hear that, Meghan. That gives me more hope for men becoming allies.

      • calabasa

        My male boss was completely supportive when I had to take time off work because I developed agoraphobia after a year of post traumatic stress.

        What I am noticing from the private FB group I am a part of is how WOMEN are complicit. Non-rapist (not even non-sexist, just non-rapist) men’s reaction to knowing that women have now discovered multiple serial rapists is “why not go to the police?” Although there are of course many reasons women do not feel safe going to the police, and such a sentiment can be victim-blaming, they also have a point. They believe that rape deserves a prison sentence. I am sure most of them would like to see sympathetic prosecutors and jurors that do not operate on myth-based assumptions and who will listen to multiple victims coming forward, regardless of whether they fit some erroneous definition of “good victim.”

        The man who groomed, abused and violently raped me as a teenager has now been outed as having at least 3 other victims of serious sexual assault, quite apart from his constant groping. His wife has come onto the group and posted saying he has admitted it and will be entering therapy, and will “make amends” to any victim who wishes he do so.

        Really! “Make amends!”

        If he has admitted it, he should turn himself in. If I accidentally killed someone, I would never be able to live with myself and would turn myself into the police immediately. If I somehow deliberately harmed people but then grew a conscience and repented my crimes I would turn myself in.

        Therapy is only going to help this man better manipulate people. “Restorative justice” feels like gaslighting women into believing some justice has been done, because their rapist went to therapy and said he was sorry. What the fuck.

        His victims are also protecting him. They are trauma-bonded to him, just like his wife.

        I understand this. I have been trauma bonded to my rapist ex-boyfriend for a long time.

        Some of the women in this group who were abused by male coworkers at supposedly “feminist” businesses were fired for making complaints, by female managers.

        Whether it’s because of trauma bonding and sympathy for the devil, or siding with and believing men and harassing women for speaking out, even when they KNOW the man in question is guilty (quite a few of the women in this group were kicked out for exactly this), women are on the side of abusers. The group is kicking out women for screenshotting or for saying to survivors they don’t believe them, but not kicking out women for saying rapists have admitted it and are going to therapy. I understand there are nuances to this conversation, but damn. Women often don’t have each other’s back either, either because they don’t want to believe it, or harbor some weird jealousy, or actively choose men over women, or because the trauma of their victims is the rapist’s protection.

        I think internalized misogyny and trauma-bonding are two of the biggest obstacles to overcoming patriarchy. There are a lot of genuinely non-sexist men who genuinely cannot understand why we can’t get our shit together.

        • Sashimi73

          This is real. I know a woman who supports her son, who is a sexual assaulter and misogynist, because he pays for their home. She wouldn’t be able to afford a home otherwise. No shelter services. It’s a horrible situation to be in.

  • crydiego

    Men should respond with their honest opinions and respectfully consider other people’s opinions.

  • shy virago

    This is fabulous – like all of your work!
    How do I find the link to the Dworkin speech?

  • Robert Gonzalez

    I can’t say that I disagree with you. I’m inclined to believe like you do, that our hope is in the coming generations of men. I can only say that it’s a miracle that I managed to change. I was hit with the truth at around the age of 22 or 23, ironically. It wasn’t instantaneous, but it sort of lingered there in the back of my mind until I realized all the horrible things that I and other men did (and do) to women on a daily basis.

    As time passes I’ve lost more and more hope for getting other men to see it too. I have tried to talk to them about feminism from a radical feminist perspective and have sometimes seen some recognition of a problem. However, it’s always cut short whenever I attack their “freedoms.” Specifically, American adult men do not ever want to be told what they should or should not do. They want their guns, their porn and everything else that brings them selfish joy. That’s a majority of the reason that we have President Trump. And liberal men, though different with their misogynistic vices, still want what they want. I believe that’s why so many of the “Bernie bros” identify with Libertarian ideas.

    Our only hope is a future with a new “improved male of the species.” I’ll keep my focus on that, but I’ll keep trying to chip away at adult men, even if it’s only in vain.

    • Sashimi73

      I think you sound very human, more in fact, then what I’ve heard from relatives who are men.

  • Womble Bananaroom

    my mum taught me that – she called it The Big Dumb Animal Theory.

    Its principle states that for anything you come across you evaluate it’s risk potential. For example, a tractor can be a useful machine or run over you, cattle can be tasty steaks or a stampede, your pet can cuddle or bite. Understanding the potential physics of things is important so not to put a surprising threat in your life. Men come into this equation too.

    My experience has been that the majority are mentally two year old stroppy toddlers in the body of an ox – hence treat appropriately.

    your welcome

    • Hekate Jayne

      I like your style, womble.

    • Hekate Jayne

      This is why the male protection racket is so annoying to me.

      I just saw another thing today, where dudes are all “sure, males are violent, but we will protect you from violent dudes! It is OUR JOB to protect you! So pick one of us, just make sure you pick right!”

      I saw a woman somewhere compare this to gorillas, just as an example. That if we know gorillas are violent, is it safe to attempt to live among them? By trying to latch onto the biggest, scariest one?

      It makes much more sense to just try to avoid them as much as possible. Since they insist that they are just going to be violent and they are very clear that they aren’t interested in stopping it.

  • Womble Bananaroom

    let’s all start holding our breath starting ….now!

  • Hekate Jayne

    That “one off” comment pisses me off.

    Every fucking day of my life that I have to leave my house.

    Every. Fucking. Day.

    If I ran the world, every male would be mute. With their hands duct taped into their pockets.

    And by the way, it is largely a myth that when you get older, that males stop harassing you. I am a mid 40s woman and that is exactly what I look like. And it does not matter.

    • Sarah

      That’s a bit harsh right? How about instead of wishing they were mute, we would change them to be respectful, productive beings? Alienating a group isn’t our goal; it’s to live in harmony with them (which means equal leadership and representation).

      • Hekate Jayne

        You said:
        “….we would change them to be respectful, productive beings?”

        Why yes. We are totally capable of changing the males!

        Why haven’t we changed the males, Sarah? Are we just lazy? Or stupid?

        You are so right. I mean, the slaves were freed when they explained to their white owners that everyone needed to live in harmony. And Hitler stopped mass killing Jewish people when the Jewish people “changed him into a respectful, productive human being”.

        Are you serious? You are implying that I am somehow alienating males?

        You know what, Sarah? I have had more than my fair share of male violence directed at me, and in most cases they were males that were very close to me. I was married to one.

        And I can assure you that I tried EVERYTHING. But your “hugs and puppies all around” approach does not work all that great with a dude that will black your fucking eye and crack your fucking ribs.

        But maybe if I hadn’t “alienated” him, we could have lived in harmony and I could have changed him into a “respectful, productive human being”.

        What the fuck. The ones doing the raping and assaulting are doing the alienating. And that is not me. Or any women.

        • Robert Gonzalez

          I’m a male and even I agree that “hugs and puppies all around” gets you nowhere with men. And if you are a woman, that might (and often does) get you killed. If you believe in the Patriarchy then you know that men are automatically advantaged just by virtue of being recognized as men. That means that we will never have as much to lose as you do. I’m definitely not here to criticize you or tell you how to think, but I’ll say that I 100% agree with Hekate on what she said.

      • FierceMild

        I don’t think you’ve mustered the courage to really see male violence yet, have you?

  • Robert Gonzalez

    No problem! I am glad you called me on it and I was happy to fix it.

  • Sashimi73

    What changed you?

  • Sashimi73

    I hope so too.

  • Sashimi73

    Wow. This is a great write-up.

  • Anonomega

    So can I honestly ask…sincerely…would you really allow men to be able to experience sexual pleasure at all? Is it really your stance that men need to completely repress their sexuality and deny themselves all sexual enjoyment in order to give women a minimum of respect?

    I mean if that’s the case just say that but otherwise…

    I would honestly like to hear more about what men can…if at all…enjoy sexually.. in both the physical and mental aspects. Have you ever thought any clear outline as to just how men are “supposed” to enjoy sex, feel arousal, be sexual etc (and that includes those who cannot attract a mate).

    I mean, if you would even let men masturbate, what exaclty can they look at or think about when they masturbate? Just how are men supposed to deal with (very real, inescapeable and extremely powerful) sex drive?

    I’m being sincerely curious

    • Morag999

      Your are not honest or sincere. You came here to harass women.

    • Omzig Online

      Fun fact: many men don’t feel the need to leave whiny, petulant straw-man arguments on feminist websites disguised as “sincere” questions. I’m guessing that you are a very young and extremely inexperienced man, and you have a lot of learning to do. Some men, after reading this article, may even rise to the challenge of actually becoming a better man, the sort of kind and principled man that a woman would actually want to be with.

      But not all men have the strength of character to accomplish this. You, for instance, seem like you’re on a straight downward trajectory, doomed to spending the rest of your life dumpster-diving for friends on Incel Reddit, whining about women that want respect, and blaming feminists for your own shortcomings.

      Now run along, dude bro. Looks like you’ve got a lot of angry masturbating to do.

    • Germaine

      I hope your dick falls off SOON !!!

    • will

      “…if you would even let men masturbate…”

      Of course you can masturbate! These comments are pure mental masturbation (flaccid and inept, but a wank nonetheless) and they are being posted! Aren’t you the lucky boy, then!

  • FierceMild

    Yes, what helped you change? I try to keep track of what altered the perspective of individual men in hope a pattern will emerge. Need more data.

  • kfwkfw

    I once told an ex-boyfriend that he talks over me, never asked me questions, and gives long-winded talks/diatribes only about his interests. Well, this caused a fight…he left to his apartment & when he was all done pouting, he wanted to come back over to talk. This motherfucker proceeds to tell me that he’s proud of his way of speaking & that he’d honed it over the years & so I’m asking too much for him to reign that in. That was my narcissist & we didn’t last much longer after that. I had already gone through hell with him, but he is the reason I became critical of men, so I thank him for that.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Classic dude. Most men don’t know how to have conversations that aren’t just centered around them talking at you.

      • kfwkfw

        If only women came with a button for tape recording

    • Wren

      “This motherfucker proceeds to tell me that he’s proud of his way of speaking & that he’d honed it over the years & so I’m asking too much for him to reign that in.”

      OMG I’m dying cause I swear to god that is a textbook response! I had to endure a prolonged word vomit last week, and when I accused him of gish galloping (a term I learned here at FC!! Yay!!), I don’t think he knew what I meant, otherwise he woulda stormed off, lol.

      • kfwkfw

        Haha…and so his reaction was that this is his *style*?

  • la scapigliata

    Hi Megan, a few of my comments are detected as spam lately, never happened before, do you know what the problem is?

    • Meghan Murphy

      I will take a look in the spam folder! Sometimes that happens and I’m not quite sure why.

      • la scapigliata

        Thanks!

  • Hanakai

    Horses may be big, but they are not dumb. Horses are also capable of empathy, loyalty and love, which is not a given for male homo sapiens. Stop defaming animals by comparing them to human males.

    • kfwkfw

      Ha! So true

  • kfwkfw

    “not to be too eager to enter sexual relationships with women” umm…yes. Men being too eager is a huge problem for women. You should try to recognize that in your everyday life and you should put forth effort to view women as MORE than sexual opportunities. It’s not about you and it’s not about your dick. No one here wants to hear your pathetic “so…so…i’m just supposed to be some poor lil boy with no hole to stick my dick in..?” routine. YES, CONTROL YOUR URGES.

    “practically no sexual outlet” oh boo hoo you fucking baby.

    “no means to derive pleasure from women …even in a mental or visual way…outside of having relationships with them” I guess it depends on how you “derive pleasure” you immature fucking heathen.

    “No, I don’t think I owe you that level of asceticism.” And women owe you…?

  • Hekate Jayne

    He is so confused, tho!

    If only he could just understand.

    But he can’t. When we say “stop the rape/assault/harassing/entitlement”, it is just so confusing!

    And when he can’t understand, then it isn’t HIS fault. It is OUR fault. Because we just can’t adequately explain this tricky, tricky concept.

    He needs endless explanations. So, so confused.

  • kfwkfw

    “from here on, “women” is understood to always be accompanied by “or children or any living thing””

    lol it’s like they’re all Lenny from Of Mice & Men. Very nice list!

  • Robert Gonzalez

    Holy shit. That reply alone should be its own article. <3

  • Morag999

    Jesus.

    Yeah, sure, this is all about you. When women demand fully-human treatment and status, you feel all repressed and put-upon.

    All this sexual harassment and assault and rape and fear girls and women are dealing with on the daily, but what gets you upset and worried is “what about my porn? What about MY erections and orgasms? Huh, huh? Never mind how women are harmed, what about Meeee and my PeePeeeee?!”

  • kfwkfw

    Well, I have something, even though I’m not Sashimi… Nice to see a man expressing such interest. This is just free form, because this memory is coming up easily right now…

    My dad: *sees fat woman walking* “VICKI?”
    …Vicki is my mother’s name. He not only got to disparage my mom, he also got a boyish thrill out of making fun of a fat woman. Not even funny or clever. He did this in front of (almost FOR) his 3 daughters. Day after day, my childhood was filled with this kind of shit. And if you don’t laugh at these jokes (that may even be at your expense), he will make you feel pretty bad for that. My dad’s thoughts & values became my own through some twisted programming. I internalized his misogyny perfectly. I fell in line, but my oldest sister didn’t, and she was the scapegoat, the slut, the rebel, the “bad girl” who dared to question him. The one he made my mom tell to apologize to him for hurting his feelings. She is scarred emotionally, but puts on a tough exterior at the expense of a fulfilling emotional life. My middle sister has beautiful teeth and lots of moles…my dad called her horse teeth and made fun of those moles. She is currently in an abusive relationship that she believes is loving. My dad has a talent which is to comment on your appearance in front of everybody and it’s embarrassing and shameful to experience such a thing. My dad had a temper which scared the ever-loving shit out of me and it made me cry instantly. When I did cry, he would laugh and say why are you crying? That was a pattern in my childhood and it crafted my dysfunctional, codependent way of being. I still love my dad and I have trouble getting angry at him still. Partly because, I don’t know, I love him. But partly because I was the golden child and I could do nothing wrong and I was his favorite, his “angel baby”. I’ve gone to therapy for over 5 years and I am still not at the point where I want to face this aspect of our relationship. Being the golden child has done nothing to deter the shame, lack of self-worth, and warped sense of self that comes with a father playing mind games with his daughters.

    My grandpa, a lifelong salesman: for all we knew, my grandma, his wife of 60 years, was dying in the hospital. He is eating lunch at a deli daily, where he chats with a particular waitress and he is giving her money. My grandma died with 60 years worth of controlling narcissistic abuse untold. She was the most loving, sweetest woman and I cry for her today because I know she never cried for herself.

    • Hekate Jayne

      I am fucking shaking, in a fucking rage, for you right now.

      • Meghan Murphy

        And they wonder why we hate men?

  • Hekate Jayne

    When he says this:
    “very real, inescapable and extremely powerful sex drive….”

    He is letting us know that he is entitled to use female bodies to masturbate into, AND that he is unable to control himself.

    So much of this (his whole post, really) comes down to a very simple concept. That concept is that males are not able to control the violence that they love to direct at us, and it is unreasonable of us to demand the most minimum decent treatment from them.

    Your post is epic. (With your permission, I would like to put it up on my blog, if you don’t mind). But his post is nothing but letting us know that he is violent and entitled, and he intends to stay that way. And his male government and society is going to help him continue on in that fashion, because males love each other first. They love treating us as objects, and they enable each other to do that. They see each other as the only humans, the rest of us (and everything) are just objects for their use. Which always centers on their boner. Because they are a fucking bore.

  • Omzig Online

    I admire your patience.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Stop pretending like being attracted to women and objectifying women is the same thing.

  • catlogic

    Good grief, are you really this stupid? Do you have any male friends? If so, did you get into a whiny, entitled “Be My Friend!” mindset the minute you laid eyes on them? No, the friendship grew naturally, because you see them as people. It’s bloody obvious you don’t see women as people at all. And if you can only fap by watching women being abused – which is what pornography is – then it’s just as well if you keep well away from us.

    • JoeMonoco

      Actually male friendships mature pretty quickly. Men can read right away if they are going to get along with someone. If you apply the same standard to male/female friendships then they end up having sex early on like men want to now.

      • Omzig Online

        Ah yes, I can tell how cosmically and soul-penetratingly deep your male friendships are by observing your shared love of playing Call of Duty. Or drinking beer. Or watching football. Or treating women badly when you’re in groups.

        It is a well established fact – acknowleged by most men – that the person that a man usually feels closest to, the person that they are the most comfortable sharing their fears and their vulnerabilities with, is usually a woman. The “mature” friendship between men that you speak of is relatively rare. However, if you yourself have a male friend that you truly feel at liberty to cry with, share your innermost dreams with, and laugh at your most embarrassing moments with, then I am so very happy for you. But this would be the exception and not the rule. When you say that “men can read right away if they are going to get along,” it usually means that men quickly establish that they both like to drink beer and play video games. Not exactly a profound connection, is it?

        Typically, it is a woman that fulfills a man’s need for a real human connection. And we provide this to the men in our lives all while bearing the brunt of their humiliating treatment, soothing their bruised egos, and weathering their abuse. This phenomenon is called “emotional labor,” and it comes at a great expense to the women in your life.

  • Omzig Online

    If you have female friends but no lovers, it’s probably because your presence in person is somehow creepier and more off-putting than your presence online. And that’s pretty hard to accomplish, little dude, because you’ve definitely got a strong Elliot Roger vibe going right now, to be perfectly honest. So before you go shooting up a sorority because no one likes your penis as much as you do, I sincerely hope you heed some advice.

    First and foremost: Your “URGES” and your sexual impulses mean absolutely nothing to us. There’s not a woman alive that thinks making your little penis happy is a priority. Not even one. We have our own lives to live, and we’ve all had to brush off incoherent, raging adolescents like you for a long time. Right now, you’re too entitled, angry, and whiny to be a good partner to any woman. Your female friends know this, they just haven’t told you.

    So this is what you should work on first – not being such an angry little shitstain. Go see a therapist if you have to. And yes, we fully expect you to get a complete grip on your “URGES” and act like a big boy. Don’t give us “appreciative glances,” it makes our skin crawl when you do that. Stop raging on an anonymous internet about how lonely your penis is, and make yourself a better man from the inside out, with the help of a therapist, of course.

    I mean, really dude, if you were female, would you hang out with someone like you?

  • Morag999

    Pornography harms women. Its production even kills. It harms individual women directly, and harms all girls and women indirectly, no matter how young or old, how beautiful or ugly, by functioning as propaganda which normalizes and naturalizes our objectified and subordinate status to men.

    Pornography, then, contributes hugely to making our human rights, as female human beings, appear less urgent and important. It paints a target on our backs for violent males and says that that target is intrinsic to our nature, that we were born to be men’s playthings, to be raped, to be disposed of when no longer useful to men’s desires. It helps to turn violations of our safety and human dignity into a trifle.

    We’re not going to “tolerate” THAT for you. Meaning, for any and all men, for whom female degradation arouses sexual pleasure and feelings of power and superiority. Why would we? We’re never going to “make peace” with the status quo wherein our lowly and dehumanized status is a male aphrodisiac.

    Pornography harms women; it harms our lives, in manifest and latent ways, from cradle to grave. If you don’t think you owe us something, fine. We’re not stupid, we know we can’t force you, personally, to renounce the objectification which turns you on. And YET, you want us to worry about YOU! Incredible, really. Like, our self-defence really confuses and hurts you.

    Male sexuality, which is dependent on a false and fragile illusion of human superiority —and which is fearful that there are only two possible positions: top or bottom, superior or inferior — is broken and dangerous, and males created this situation all by themselves.

    So, come ON. Don’t cry to us, don’t complain to feminists, about how you’ll cease to exist as a man unless you’re on top and doing the harm. That’s a psycho-sexual problem for you and your brothers to fix. In the meantime, we’re not going to offer up ourselves and our daughters and granddaughters as human sacrifices to keep you feeling happy and secure. And, no matter what you choose, we’re going to continue to fight the men and women who support the sacrificing of our sisters and daughters, all over the world, to meet the demands of ravenous and, frankly, deranged male sexuality.

    • Hekate Jayne

      This article is all about how males can support women.

      Males don’t have to comment here.

      But for dudes to come into an article about a mass of sexual assault commited by one disgusting dude on a huge number of women, and then proceed to whine and cry about his boner?????

      That is some epic male assholery.

      Post says “dudes, here is how you can be productive”.

      Dude responds “BUT MY BONERZ, THO WAAH WAAH WAAH”.

      Jesus. And he is too ignorant to care. About anything but his fucking erection. It is beyond pathetic.

  • kfwkfw

    While of course, I agree it’d be great if there was an even playing field where men & women could get attracted to each other and flirt and have passionate sex. That’s not how MEN do it because men see access to women’s minds & bodies as a RIGHT that they demand to have. If you claim that’s not how it is, I’m telling you that’s how it comes off to women, so that’s where you shut up & listen & seek to learn more & do better.

  • crydiego

    I agree with you. Is there anything that you think men should continue to do?

    • Omzig Online

      There’s actually a really great article about what men can do that addresses your question perfectly:

      http://www.feministcurrent.com/2017/10/22/14-ways-men-can-respond-productively-metoo/

      • crydiego

        I saw what you did there, ..good comment.

        • Robert Gonzalez

          Just making sure… Are you a man, crydiego? I don’t want to assume.

    • FierceMild

      In what arena? We’re talking about sexual assault here, so no, there is nothing in the arena of sexual assault I think men should continue doing.

      • crydiego

        Personally I don’t commit sexual assult but I understand what you’re saying.

    • Wren

      Um…did you read the article?

      • crydiego

        I see your point but the vibe from this articles comment section is like all men are basicly pigs. I’m just asking if there are smevthings men generally do right but your point is well stated.

        • kfwkfw

          God damn dude, get outta here

  • Hekate Jayne

    You said:
    “I also went through this phase where I realized that I really disliked men.”

    I am in that phase now. For a few decades.

    • Robert Gonzalez

      Hahaha. Oh. Shit. I should correct that. I’m even more in that phase now. I have zero male friends now. They all turned out to be complete misogynists. And I’m trying my best to recognize the awful shit in myself and correct it. Part of me commenting here is to be around better people like you, Hekate.

  • Morag999

    “You basically just said you have no problem treating women like human beings but you have a problem with treating them like human beings.”

    Yes, this is it. One cannot be committed to the project of actively upholding the full humanity of females and children, and, at the same time, support and enjoy the industries and institutions which promote their dehumanization and abuse as entertainment and sexual thrills.

  • FierceMild

    It does help.

  • FierceMild

    I’m sorry for what you went through. That is horrendous.

    • Robert Gonzalez

      As horrendous as it was, it still doesn’t seem like much compared to what women continuously go through or have been through. But I’m glad I can be open about it on here.

  • Robert Gonzalez

    La Scapigliata, could I have a link to your blog? I admire your writing and your insight.

    • la scapigliata

      Thank you Robert. Sure, but I’m not terribly regular or organised over there, and I try to keep it low key. https://www.plumandcinnamon.com

      • Robert Gonzalez

        Thank you so much, La Scapigliata. I’ll definitely be paying your blog a visit. 🙂

  • kfwkfw

    Wow, we certainly are in similar boats. Thank YOU for opening up, too. While you saw your father for what he is when you were younger, i was blind it to the truth of mine until somewhat recently…I felt it was normal. I felt I deserved whatever happened to me. I was fully brainwashed. And my special status with him grants me the awful feeling of betraying my sisters when he’d divide & conquer. I felt like I was pleasing my father & he conditioned me to want that more than anything. Me & my sisters are good with each other now though & have bonded & treat each other like sisters we love & I know they hold no grudge. We have always been close & I saw them as safe even though they bullied me. My mom and us were always an alliance against this monster we never really addressed head on. This is the effect of trauma from emotional abuse & I’m sorry you went through what you did as well.

    Tough to talk about, but ultimately it is a great thing to reach out to each other. I feel for you, too. Because of my background, I never feel right accepting true validation, but it’s time I do opposite of what I was taught, so I thank you.

  • kfwkfw

    Trust goes out of the window. So sorry for your experiences <3 if you want you can share them as I know we all have memories which haunt us. None of us deserved that shit.

    • FierceMild

      Thanks, I appreciate that. So many people here have experienced deep pain and grief it’s heartbreaking.

  • Wren

    YES!! A man finally gets it:

    “…..So apparently you want me not to be too eager to enter sexual relationships with women. And simultaneously have practically no sexual outlet…no means to derive pleasure from women …even in a mental or visual way…outside of having relationships with them.”

    We are not at you disposal, for pleasure or anything else. See, everyone?? Men can totally get it; they just choose not to.

  • Wren

    Thanks for sharing your story. I think it’s important.

    • Robert Gonzalez

      I’m glad to share, Wren. Thank you for taking the time to read it.

  • Hekate Jayne
  • Wren

    “When you grow up like that you don’t believe that people have a ‘reasonable’ setting.”

    My parents are both seriously disturbed people and nothing ever made sense in our house. My siblings and I were unloved and treated with contempt unless we were making our parents look good, but we were always, always terrified. Of course we all dealt with it our own way. I had a relationship with my parents on and off into early adulthood, until my ex-boyfriend told me that I shouldn’t ever talk to them again, that there was something deeply wrong with them. It’s not that I only broke off contact because my boyfriend said so, but because finally someone else really, really saw what I saw. My ex gave me the confirmation I needed to break away for good, and I will forever thank him for it. He also gave me several years of the only stability and love that I have really ever known. Our relationship had problems, but he did give me a lot in the time we were together.

    I think my situation is a little unusual in that the primary abuser in my family was my mother. My father wasn’t aggressively misogynistic like many men, but more infatuated and powerless in relationship with my mother. He did, however, have a violent and unpredictable temper.

    It’s taken me a very long to see and acknowledge that some people actually have control of their emotions and have no interest in hurting me, and they might actually care about me. It’s very, very hard to trust other people when you’re primary caregivers were cruel.

    • kfwkfw

      Glad you can see it now for what it was. I look back even when i feel most hopeless these days & I think at least am not stuck there, where I was.

  • kfwkfw

    Do you mean your dad was a bully…emotionally abusive? I’d say it caused me to live on the defensive. I actually trusted my dad, too much. Healthy trust is what I’ve lacked. You have gifts in being able to read people.

    • FierceMild

      Yes he was a horrible out of control rage monster and a bully of the first waters. He was like an alcoholic without the booze. My mother is more of a true misogynist though.

      The problem with both my parents (as with some abusers) is genuine remorse and love of their children. They are capable and desirous of change. But the emotional and spiritual damage to their children is severe and cannot be recalled.

  • lk

    Males believing that women owe them sex is an awful belief.

    Men use it to justify rape, use prostitutes, cheating on their partners, abusing/manipulating and threatening their partners into sex. I’m not entirely sure men understand the tremendous emotional, psychological and physical damage they do in putting getting sex from women first and foremost before treating us as people and equals…or maybe they do?

    “I’m so sorry that happened to you. No one deserves that.”

    It was terrible…He gave me a deadline date to have sex and referred to sex and blow jobs as my duties and was constantly reminding me that we needed to start having sex. So I had sex I didn’t want to have and when I wasn’t ready and it was horrible..I felt worthless and like garbage and got no sexual satisfaction from it, but he was happy…

    Like many women, I learned my lesson the hard way, you have to be very careful around men.

    • Robert Gonzalez

      @lk – It’s the worst belief. It’s one that I had when I was younger but didn’t even realize I held. As a man you just think that’s how things are supposed to be. And the less a man feels empathy towards a woman, the less likely he is to ever question it. Even then, it’s so acceptable in our society that those that do question it end up questioning themselves and just conforming. All of the friends I used to have were very open about pushing boundaries with women or outright using them. I still remember one friend telling me specifically that he used his girlfriend for blowjobs and nothing more. Patriarchy does a great job of maintaining itself.

      Men rarely understand the negative impact they have on this world. It took me a long time to understand just how much male sex expectation does to damage our society and the women, children and vulnerable men within it. I mentioned in a comment in another thread that I had a male coworker that I placed a lot of trust in that ended up raping me at work training. I actually woke up to him between my legs. Something snapped inside of me and I just dissociated from my body. I couldn’t believe it was happening to me and that it was even real.

      Everything that happened to you is horrible. There’s no excuse for that kind of treatment. And I wish that what happened to you was just a chance occurrence, but your story is nearly word for word what happened to one of my good friends. She, too, was expected to be a sex toy without any expectation of getting her sexual needs met. And these assholes have the fucking audacity to turn it on you and make you feel like you’re the horrible one. They deserve to burn.

      I’m so, so sorry that you had to learn in that way. In my own way, I learned too. I know now never to trust men again Too many of them resemble sociopaths and I’m starting to think that the condition isn’t as rare as psychology would have you believe.

      • lk

        I am so sorry about your rape. Nobody has the right to force or coerce anyone into sex, ever.

        I will always believe that sex is something that should be shared happily and freely between two people-not something that should be done out of fear or force or a feeling that you owe someone sex.

        “I still remember one friend telling me specifically that he used his girlfriend for blowjobs and nothing more.”

        That is awful. What is terrible is that this woman probably really liked him and believed that this guy cared for and respected her.

        I’ve heard and seen many people say that women need to be better at screening out bad guys, but that is not as easy to do as people think.

    • FierceMild

      I’m wishing you healing with all my strength, sister. Sometimes I hope there really is a hell just so douches like that have a place to live out the unfolding of the universe.

  • Hekate Jayne

    I knew that you would be with me.

    Hee hee.

  • lk

    I’m trying to understand how you can read this article and come to the conclusion that
    women expect guys to “starve my sexuality to the point where I neither pursue relationships or fantasize.”

    Do guys really not understand the MASSIVE difference between healthy sexual attraction/relationships between men & women and the sexual abuse, harassment and objectification of women? Why do guys think respecting women=the end of sexual enjoyment? Why is their only concern about their sexual satisfaction and nothing else?

    Also “surrogate sex”..what?!

    • FierceMild

      It is so horrifying. This kid is out in the world persuing young women to “derive pleasure” from them like a depraved Frankenstein’s monster.

      • lk

        The whole language of his comments is just so gross and sexist, I honestly couldn’t even bring myself to respond directly to him.

        We can only pray and hope that he will not procreate, haha!

  • FierceMild

    Please don’t speak for me. I don’t know who your “we” refers to, but I certainly do not “appreciate” that this boy is “trying to figure this all out” by classifying all women as firstly and primarily things from which he has a right to derive pleasure.

  • crydiego

    You may very well be right. I hold no grudge because I can sense a lot of pain here.

    • will

      Does it hurt to be that thick, or is it more like a big puffy feather pillow where a mind should be ?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Men and women WILL be ‘enemies’, if you want to frame it that way, so long as men continue to perpetrate violence against women. Up to y’all, really.

  • Meghan Murphy

    There is no such thing as ‘fourth wave feminism’ and we, here, are all critics of the third wave. You are very clearly talking out of your ass.

  • FierceMild

    I would like to understand your position more thoroughly; when you say “male sexuality” what exactly do you mean? I’m thinking maybe you’re referring to the way males exhibit sexual interest, or what they exhibit sexual interest in?

    I ask because when I see the words ‘male sexuality’ I tend to think of something like the natural habits and dispositions of males (human or, more broadly, mammalian) towards sex acts and sexual contact with others. You seem to be coming from a more evolved and much more sophisticated point of reference. I’m not sure if I’m being at all clear so let me try to sum up:

    Me: male sexuality = being male and disposed to lick/shag/snuggle/masturbate/sniff previous to cultural or even species-specific influence of any kind.

    you: male sexuality = ?

    • kfwkfw

      I’m referring casually to the way they exhibit sexual interest, yes! The way you are defining it there.

  • FierceMild

    Yes to everything you’re saying! My father was raised by two abusive alcoholics. Couple that with as severe a case of male entitlement as you’ve ever seen and a devotion to brutal Patriarchal religion (Irish Catholic) and he had no chance of coming out well-balanced. That’s not an excuse, it’s just a fact. You’d have to be a bloody saint and an intellectual giant to overcome that upbringing without help. He was a crap father and an abominable partner to my mother.

    Fast forward some forty years and he is actively seeking ways to atone. It is lacerating to see him with my daughter. He, a father of ten, is clumsy and tender with his grandchildren. He watches their faces trying to read their reactions and learn how to respond to them in the way they most need. He learned how to change a diaper with his grandchildren. He has done the best/worst thing possible in asking his children how to make up for his shortcomings as a person and as a father, and then trying to do what’s asked him.

    • kfwkfw

      That is fascinating. Sometimes, I think the sheer stress of living with children (10 for your father!) and eking out a living causes all of their abuse to bubble up so terribly against the ones they love. The way aggression, frustration, anger, etc. builds and releases is human. But fathers like yours and I’s have unwritten social license to abuse women and children, which makes it unacceptable. I can accept his very human rage exists, but they way it was expressed was damaging to his 3 young girls and his wife. I just can’t settle my feelings on this.

      Btw-I just thought of how girls and women are subjugated into viewing their very real abuse as nothing more than “daddy issues”. Just another way men escape responsibility. It is much more than “daddy issues” and men turn it into the butt of a joke to lighten the severity of it. It is not a joke. This is MOST women, honestly. MOST women struggle with the way their father treated her, IF she even wants to address it. But in our society’s view of what abuse is, pointing out blame in every-day, pervasive, and insidious abuse is not taken well. THIS is what makes it impossible to claim abuse. We are being gaslighted every day of our lives.

  • kfwkfw

    Feels so yucky to be on the receiving end

  • Mmmeee

    Point 8) Volunteer to be part of the clean up crew for a
    feminist event. Volunteer to cook. Volunteer to help with childcare. Do
    whatever else feminists ask you to do so that their event can be a
    success.

    Almost impossible to realize for a man in every country…

  • Omzig Online

    This is a pretty good read, but the comments at the bottom – from both men and women – are each a near perfect demonstration of Lewis’ Law.

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/comments/2017/10/19/opinion/metoo-sexual-harassment-men.html

  • crydiego

    Been there, doing that.
    Goodbye

  • marv

    Give it up already. Diversity of opinion among the dominant sex class is irrelevant in class struggles. Should blacks care what whites think, the rich to the poor? Playing devil’s advocate is the frivolous yet damaging pass time of liberals instructed in unacknowledged class advantage – you.

  • kfwkfw

    That’s not a real question whatsoever. You’re not open to women who hold these opinions. You’re not engaging in thoughtful debate, you’re trolling.

    Shit like this “Women can be abusive too…especially if they grow up in abusive homes” THIS HAS NO PLACE HERE. That’s YOU missing the point, ON PURPOSE. Let’s see…who was PROBABLY the original abuser in her home…hmmm her father & you are ignorant of REAL women’s experience (I doubt you talk with REAL women about their REAL life experiences? Not that you should, you’d probably ruin it) if you come back with “well it could have been her mother” Like we get it, you have a hard-on for demonizing women & excusing men…it’s boring to us & it has no place here. And just cuz you haven’t been openly rude means nothing. What’s rude is you invading this space with your MRA shit, which you must get off on.

  • Meghan Murphy

    That doesn’t make any sense, as far as definitions go…

  • Meghan Murphy

    Like what?

  • kfwkfw

    Do you ever get to lecture & bait men about things the way you have here? No. You save it for women cuz that’s just more fun, isn’t it? You get off on this shit. It’s weird. It’s creepy. I hope you are actually gone now cuz you’re the worst.

    Oo I wanna try lecturing… Hey, if you wanna try out having an open mind…honestly evaluate how you treat men vs. how you treat women. If you don’t do this, you’re being dishonest with yourself. Cuz I can sense your misogyny & entitlement. Give yourself some boundaries & start with “no more bugging feminists on feminist current” …Freak