At what point should the kink community take responsibility for their ‘anything goes’ approach to sex?

That men have learned to put their pleasure first has created a world where sadists like Peter Madsen and Brendt Christensen not only fantasize about hurting women, but make those fantasies a reality.

Danish inventor Peter Madsen, accused of killing journalist Kim Wall.

As it turns out, journalist Kim Wall was not dropped off on shore by Danish inventor Peter Madsen, nor did the 30-year-old accidentally hit her head on his submarine’s 150 pound hatch, causing her to “bleed violently” and ultimately die.

Rather, Wall, who had thought she would be doing “a fun interview with an eccentric Danish inventor who built his own submarine,” was dismembered and decapitated, then tossed into the ocean in a bag full of pipes, in order to make her body sink. Madsen’s DNA was found on her body, as well as stab wounds (in particular, multiple mutilation wounds to Wall’s genitals) and stitches, which were sewn into her torso.

It did not come as a surprise to me when investigators announced that Madsen had “fetish videos” of women being tortured, decapitated, and burned alive on his computer. It was also reported that the 46-year-old frequented “fetish nights” and “sex parties.” Indeed, Madsen attended nights put on by a collective called “Kinky Salon,” which claims to want to “make the world a better place, one pervert at a time.” The website explains:

“Behind this door you can unlock community, creative expression, and sexual liberation, becoming part of a movement to change our culture’s unhealthy attitude towards sexuality.”

Kinky Salon describes their parties as “arty, playful, fun, [and] sex positive” — a “safe space” where “all kinds of people and all kinds of sexuality are embraced” and where people can “explore their sexuality without fear of judgment.”

While blaming fetish parties for men’s decisions to kill women may sound like a stretch, the notion that BDSM porn and the sexualization of violence that is acceptable (encouraged, even) in the “kink community” is harmless strikes me as a dangerous lie. When anything goes and when anything that turns an individual on is celebrated without critique, where is the line? If violence is harmless sex, the idea that violence is sexy becomes an accepted part of “sexual liberation.”

Indeed, the term “violence against women” is never mentioned in Kinky Salon’s “don’t” section. How could it be? “Shaming” individuals for their sexual desires is said to be a repressive practice by those who second wavers referred to as “sexual liberals.”

In the kink community, no fantasy is off limits. From Seattle to Toronto to London and Los Angeles, Kinky Salon explains they are “queer friendly, body positive, accessible, and inclusive,” advertising a “safe space for ALL to pursue the fantasies they seek.” It has become unpopular to suggest there should be limits to the kinds of fantasies people indulge in. The common perspective taken up by liberals, queer activists, and third wavers (echoed by Kinky Salon) is that sex is the thing that will liberate us and that the only possible response to sexual repression is to indulge in anything and everything that comes to mind, free of shame. “Consent” is emphasized, to be sure, but the idea that “consent” can transform an abusive or violent practice into something positive and “liberating” is a questionable one.

No progressive person today would argue, for example, that if a black person “consents” to slavery, slavery can be empowering or liberating. It is irrational (and dangerous) to claim that imagery depicting the torture and murder of women can be “sex positive” so long as the women featured on camera have signed a contract. Fantasizing about torturing women should be viewed as unhealthy, at least, and a sign of an abusive man at most.

Polly Whittaker (AKA Polly Superstar) is the founder of Kinky Salon, and calls herself a “sex culture revolutionary.” In a video taken at her book launch, a number of her guests explain that a “sex culture revolutionary” is someone who “fights against the system that tells us who we should be at the expense of our happiness.” It’s a strange, rather juvenile, certainly hedonistic way to fashion one’s politics, as it centers one’s own personal pleasure over absolutely anything else. It’s also dangerous.

Indulging narcissism is not going make the world a more ethical, equitable place. It is not going to change systems of power or address systemic problems like poverty, sexism, and racism. Positioning our personal desires and pleasure above all else means we can justify anything at all and even politicize indulgence because, according to these “sex culture revolutionaries,” “fucking can change the world.”

The mantra embraced by sexual liberals and articulated by one woman interviewed in Whittaker’s video, that “there is nothing wrong with pleasure” and that it is “all good for you” is not, in fact, true, as many people take pleasure in extraordinarily sadistic practices. Sometimes those practices are harmful to others, sometimes they are harmful to the individuals themselves. Sometimes the practices are harmful to society as a whole. Pornography that depicts incest, racism, and abuse, I would argue, is not good for society, if indeed we wish to live in a society without those things. It is neither “good” or “healthy” to draw no lines between what is ethical and what is not, simply because the thing is pleasurable. Building a society wherein living things are treated with respect will not come from encouraging people (men, in particular — as they are the people who are in a position of power already and socialized to view women as things that exist to provide them with pleasure) to indulge in any and every fantasy they have.

Those of us who consider ourselves to be ethical, progressive people should discourage and condemn the sexualization of violence, regardless of “consent,” just as we have condemned practices like child marriage, sexual assault, pedophilia, slavery, and domestic abuse. When a woman chooses to remain in an abusive marriage, it does not mean the abuse is acceptable, nor do sweatshops become ethical the moment a person agrees to work in one. There is no reason why sex should be the exception when it comes to our ethics and politics, particularly in a world wherein women and girls are sexually abused (and killed) by men every day.

Last week, an indictment against Brendt Christensen was upgraded, alleging the 28-year-old intentionally killed Yingying Zhang, a visiting scholar from China, in “an especially heinous, cruel, or depraved manner.” The new indictment contends her death involved torture or serious physical abuse and that Christensen kidnapped and killed Zhang “after substantial planning and premeditation.” When investigators searched his phone, they found Christensen had visited a forum on FetLife, “a Social Network for the BDSM, Fetish, and Kinky Community.” The forum, called “Abduction 101,” hosted threads like “Perfect abduction fantasy” and “Planning a kidnapping.”

This is not the first time FetLife has been implicated in allegations of abuse. Yet, according to an article in The Atlantic, the site has a policy that prohibits users of making “criminal accusations against another member in a public forum.” It sounds like the ideal place for a man to go not only to indulge his violent fantasies, but to expand upon them, find victims, and learn new ways to torture and abuse women.

Violence against women happens everywhere, but removing our ability to name it as violence is dangerous. The fact that we, as a society, have labelled things like torture and abuse a mere “fetish” should alarm us, but instead these practices are defended time and time again by third wavers, liberals, leftist men, and the queer community. Any space or community wherein men feel safe and supported in indulging in violence against women needs to take a deep look at their so-called politics — ethics and women’s safety should precede any individual’s sexual pleasure. That men have learned to put their pleasure first has created a world where sadistic men like Madsen and Christensen not only fantasize about hurting women, but make those fantasies a reality.

Meghan Murphy
Meghan Murphy

Founder & Editor

Meghan Murphy is a freelance writer and journalist. She has been podcasting and writing about feminism since 2010 and has published work in numerous national and international publications, including New Statesman, Vice, Al Jazeera, The Globe and Mail, I-D, Truthdig, and more. Meghan completed a Masters degree in the department of Gender, Sexuality and Women’s Studies at Simon Fraser University in 2012 and lives in Vancouver, B.C. with her dog.

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  • Rachael

    It’s a world gone mad when society looks at a man who gets sexual pleasure from hurting women and calls it a fetish instead of what it really is: violence. It defies believe that on an individual level, anyone who has any self-awareness can’t see that their sexual fantasies of this type indicate a pathology as opposed to something that should be encouraged and acted out in reality.

    Of course, porn plays its part in this, with its ever-increasing violence towards women, which is normalising it at an alarming rate. What will each generation of internet-porn raised kids be like when they reach adulthood? Will they have any respect left for anyone else? The cult of individualism, of “me, me, me” at the detriment to what is good for society has taken hold in a massive way. I’m not sure how we get free.

    Media such as Fifty Shades has its own part to play in this mess, making women think that not only should they be accepting sexual abuse from men but they should be loving it. TV shows like Game of Thrones portray scene after scene of violence alongside scene after scene of women being used and abused (or simply appearing as sexual wallpaper), all for the male gaze. No wonder violence and sex are now holding hands.

    We aren’t fucking progressive as a society, we aren’t becoming more liberal. We are going backwards at an alarming rate. For a supposedly intelligent species we sure are stupid and self-destructive.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Thanks so much for your work on this, Susan!

  • Hekate Jayne

    I watch a lot of YouTube. Apparently I have no life.

    If you know YouTube, you know the “list” type videos. I was watching one called “the top 10 scariest websites”. It was a part 2, the first 10 were scary, or whatever, but it was like B horror movie scary.

    This second list had a website called “best gore”. It was exactly what it sounds like, I suppose. I didn’t visit it. I didn’t think all that much about it. Until I scrolled through the comments.

    The narrator had actually warned against looking at “best gore”. I thought he was exaggerating for narrative effect, or whatever. But there were a ton of people saying that they looked and that it was really frightening.

    The interesting thing about that were the comments about porn being advertised on that site. A woman said that she had clicked on the link, and on the front page of “best gore” were porn adverts. She seemed confused about why that is. I mean, here is a site that shows women and children being beheaded with chainsaws (by a male, I am sure), people doing horrible things to animals, etc. (I didn’t look, but these are things written in the comments). And she was shocked that the porn was especially violent.

    And there were other people showing confusion, as well. They couldn’t figure out why this violent porn was on a gore website.

    I think that it is something else that women are not aware of the scope of this, of how pervasive it is. I think that women see a dude like these murderous guys Meghan wrote about here, and they think that these males are rare, a one off, or a niche group of especially evil dudes. They don’t understand that this type of violence is very common in porn, and that a LOT of males get a hard on from seeing women abused, even up until death. Or they do know, and they ignore it. Because damn. It is fucking frightening.

    • Danielle Matheson

      I watch and read a lot of True Crime stuff and it’s the same. The murders of the women in this article are a dime a dozen (and I don’t say that to make them seem unimportant or insignificant, it’s just so common). People seem to ignore the fact that we don’t live in a vacuum and that outside things really do affect us. The fact that people refuse to see the connection between Gore and porn is scary. Or like you said, they just ignore it and think these terrible murders are going to happen to someone else and they’ll watch it on Dateline.

  • Thom Prentice

    Gore Vidal once wrote that in this civilization, ‘sex is never very far from violence.’

    Yet I have come to see prophetic events like these — if I may call these despicable horrors of white male dominated violent sex porn culture ‘prophetic events’ — (as well as prophets from Isaiah to Orwell and Huxley) — as not so much prophets warning humanity to wake up and turn away from a terrible future so much as they are oracles of how dystopian that future would turn out to be; given the scarcity of thought and reason in species Homo sapiens sapiens.

    These ubiquitous, dystopian science fiction films and Imperial-Jesus-Turns-Into-A–SuperHero films from Superman and Batman to Spiderman and Wonder Woman also come to mind.

    In other words, more oracles than warnings.

    In these cases, even symptoms. Like engines and wings flying off an aircraft telling window-seat passengers what the future holds. Except in reality, none of the superheroes are going to fly in to save the day.

    Yet I do hold fast to reason and respect and the ability of the species to change consciousness and replace the current social order with one foundational in liberation, equality, ethics, ecology-centered, emancipation and justice, however naive, gullible and glib and even ‘hope and change to believe in’ that may seem.

  • Tinfoil the Hat

    On a famous, shitty website that pretends to be feminist, when news broke that Madsen had killed Ms. Wall, several women commenters said, “She wouldn’t consent to sex, so he killed her.” The blowback was immediate and predictable. “How DARE you just MAKE UP accusations against him!” “Oh, were you THERE? Did you SEE it happen?” etc.

    And every single one of us knew we were 100% right. Duh.

  • Kathleen Lowrey

    These two women must have suffered so much. It’s horrible to think about for more than a few seconds.

    I’ve always questioned the theories that serial killers and psychopaths lack empathy. It seems to me that they have highly developed empathy. If I felt sort of cold and neutral toward others, it might make me forget to wish them a happy birthday but I wouldn’t structure my days around finding opportunities to make them suffer intensely. These men — and it is is always men — are far from “unfeeling”. They are expert empaths and feelers, imagining what would really really hurt women and children (and occasionally, male victims — almost always young men, though; not past their 20s). They have a capacity to imagine how others feel that rivals Deanna Troi’s. It’s just completely focused on sadism.

    • Tinfoil the Hat

      This is brilliant. You are brilliant. How have I never made this connection? Thank you!

    • Simon White

      Psychopaths’ cognitive empathy is often normal or superior, which is how they can be so manipulative.
      They lack affective empathy i.e. they don’t get similar feelings when observing other’s emotions. So they are the opposite of an empath. Their reward comes from other things.

      Narcissists are more complex and are kind of opposite as regards empathy – they lack cognitive empathy, and can not understand or control the distorted affective empathy they feel. Both conditions can be present at once.

      BTW serial killers are 15% women in the US but they have a very different pattern to men. Killers of random members of the public are practically all male, as are spree and mass killers.

      • calabasa

        You are completely wrong.

  • fxduffy

    Male sexuality or plain old sexuality as most people know it, is an expression of power and sexual pleasure combined. All its forms, fantasies, and fetishes are to one degree or another an expression of male power. Its based on differentiation between the controller and the controlled. So, in all its forms it’s unilateral and dangerous, if not sadistic. But sadism is built into male desire, which is why surveys of male college students have disclosed that 60-70% would rape if no legal prohibitions were in effect.

    To me, anything approaching S-M sexuality has to be condemned. Victimization is its point, criminality its end. Someone must play the object, and that female or female substitute must end up in a cycle of abuse, injured, disabled, or dead.

    • Hekate Jayne

      Completely agree.

      Males have been telling us for centuries that violence, hatred, entitlement, uncontrollable rage and anger, etc. are a part of their “nature”.

      I don’t know why we don’t believe them.

  • Kiwipally

    From my perspective as a complete outsider to all of this, the BDSM communities seem to be trying to turn sex into some type of higher activity, a la sex magick. What on earth is wrong with “vanilla” sex? And if men can’t orgasm in the absence of violence in association with sex, then it is the violence that is making them orgasm, not the sex.

    • Danielle Matheson

      BOOM! There it is!

  • Meghan Murphy

    This is just sickening.

    • melissa

      I know. And to think that rightfully calling that sickening is controversial now blows my mind.

  • Jane Gaddin

    Truly frightening.

  • Meghan Murphy

    But cooking clubs don’t tell people that violence is sexy and healthy.

  • Hekate Jayne

    Yes. Because dicing an onion is exactly the same as cutting a woman.

    Cooking is totes the same as males committing violence against women!

    • -Jane Don’t-

      The ONIONZZZZ!!!!! Not ALL onions! lol

  • esuth

    Lol, cooking clubs don’t cut up women. Nice try!

  • -Jane Don’t-

    I used to have an interest in BDSM from both sides – submissive & dominant. I have mixed feelings on it in general, especially since I’m a self-injurious person & have issues w/cutting & alcohol abuse. :-/

    After I was raped when I was 24, I have realized all I want is someone to treat me with respect, kindness, and tenderness when I CHOOSE to be with them intimately.

    I don’t think having a kinky sex life is “bad,” but I’ve just now come to the realization that my initial interest in being the submissive one is b/c I hate myself & think I deserve it.

    (Cool, nearly crying in a bar by myself.)

    • Omzig Online

      Hugs, sister. We’ve all been there. <3

      • -Jane Don’t-

        Thank you. <3

    • therealcie

      I know how you feel. For a long time I could only get off to fantasies of being humiliated. I am a sexual assault victim too.
      When the wonderful partner that I never thought I deserved heard this from me, he cried. He said that knowing the things that were done to make me feel this way about myself broke his heart.
      We don’t deserve to be humiliated.

      • -Jane Don’t-

        This site really helps. All of you get it; I wish more did.

  • Katie MunchmaQuchi Smith

    Except the thing they’re cutting up in cooking club isn’t women’s bodies.

  • Katie MunchmaQuchi Smith

    Or anyone who buys the books or goes to the movies!

  • Leo

    Cooking does often normalises violence against other animals by reducing them to ‘things’, and the reproductive exploitation of female animals, and human females are indirectly harmed too (eg. due to higher rates of domestic violence and sexual assault committed by slaughterhouse workers, and the impact on global warming of animal agriculture), so yeah, it IS kind of similar. If saying it’s been normalised sounds odd to anyone -that’s because it’s been normalised-, ask yourself would it bother you to watch footage of the way most farmed animals are treated? Of them being killed? How would you feel if the animal were a dog, not a pig, a species just as intelligent, not that intelligence should be the defining factor?

  • Hekate Jayne

    Before I discovered radical feminism, I posted to a libfem site quite a bit.

    And the sight always had an article about BDSM, and about how wonderfully, consent-y and choicey it is.

    The very last article that I posted on was written by an old, white male, explaining how exceptionally edgy and choicey his chosen “kink” was. His chosen link was “daddy/daughter dom”.

    I laughed. For days. I mean, a “feminist” website posting an article written by an old white guy about his edgy kink of dominating very young women?!?!

    How very unusual! An old white guy that gets an erection from “dominating” young, conventionally attractive women! How unique!

    Whenever anything appeals to males, or it is the exact thing that males demand, no matter what it is, it needs a second look.

  • Danielle Matheson

    Yes! I watch a lot of True Crime stuff and all these serial killers were very much into porn. They all had violent sexual fantasies that they carried. It’s so common it’s sickening. And it’s maddening that people think everyone should just accept all the violence and bullshit.

  • Cassandra

    You get an F in Analogy.

  • Cassandra

    It doesn’t matter because the dynamics of how he lives in the world aren’t the same as women’s. After he puts his pants back on he walks right back into male privilege.

  • melissa

    That was profoundly stupid comparison.

  • Julie Katz

    I agree that BDSM mainstreaming is a product of gay male culture. And I’ll take that one step farther and say that some gay men choose to have sex with men not out of innate emotional-sexual attraction to other men but because it’s easier to have anonymous and violent sex with other men because that’s what many men want–the other side of that coin is men who want to be penetrated and violently fucked and can’t find women to do it to them or can’t become aroused unless they are over powered. Gay culture turned into queer theory, which consumed women’s studies, and gave rise to all this rape-positive third wave culture.

    Yes, perversion is what this is. And yes, their flaccid penises from too much tugging to violent porn is what eggs them on to the next step. Studies on criminal behavior show again and again that rape almost always involves distorted signal interpretation–men who rape or have rape-supportive attitudes consistently interpret non-sexual attention by women as sexually solicitous. They learn these distortions, and that women like to be hurt, through porn.

  • catlogic

    The “dominatrix” thing is still men requiring women to cater to their fetishes – in this case, for submission, which is directly connected to “feminisation” and humiliating themselves by pretending to be in the submissive, ie female, role.

    Second, why should it ever be considered neutral or not-wrong for someone to be hurt or degraded? Why should it be okay when there’s a potential orgasm involved? (Not having a go at you, it’s a serious question.)

    To answer your other comment – reddit Gender Critical is worth reading.

  • therealcie

    I think it’s pretty troubling when people are saying that people getting off on the idea of torturing and killing someone (very often a girl or woman) is no different from someone wanting to engage in consensual bondage or activities such as spanking.
    I once happened upon some “fetish comics” which depicted young women being murdered and their bodies cannibalized after they were used for sex.
    This is extremely troubling stuff and it should not be encouraged. For such groups as Kinky Salon to dismiss this sort of snuff fantasy as no different or more harmful than consensual bondage and dominance fantasies is incredibly irresponsible.

    • Alienigena

      See the movie “A Boy and His Dog” starring Don Johnson. Sickening. The main character kills a young woman after having sex with her. So the rule is bros before ho’s, even when the former are dogs. The movie is based on a cycle of narratives by Harlan Ellison, science fiction writer.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t understand why A) you think that feminists aren’t also impacted by socialization when it comes to sex, and B) why you think that the fact that women participate in BDSM means that BDSM isn’t something worth critiquing?

    Plenty of us here (myself included) have desired, enjoyed, or convinced ourselves to enjoy sex that involved some version of power play, abuse, domination/subordination, etc etc. The fact that our sexualities are shaped by the world around us does not make us “mindless” zombies, it makes us human beings living in a patriarchal society. Also, the idea that only people who intentionally consume porn are influenced by it is rather naive.

  • Morag999

    Or drugs. People use drugs; men use women. So, they argue, let’s decriminalize both kinds of users. Because same, same.

  • -Jane Don’t-

    Reddit was your first mistake.

    • Kiwipally

      Credit where credit is due, I think he’s made many many mistakes before Reddit.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t believe that you are a doctor.

    • Cristian Suciu

      this type of statement should also be followed by some kind of argument.
      I am a GP since 2013 specialised in internal medicine and cardiology. I am Romanian and practice in Bucharest, Romania. Google me.

    • Kiwipally

      Come on Meghan, every bloke who states their IQ, occupation, or education on the internet is telling the truth. We all know men never lie! 😉

    • Hekate Jayne

      I especially like this gem:
      “In my country we stil have villages with 0 connections to the internet and still people have sex with animals, rape children, women and other men, practice unsafe and dangerous consented BDSM (inserting hair spray tubes in the anus and stuff like this). People who can do terrible things, who found a way in their mind to be ok with doing it ,will do it sooner or later.”

      PEOPLE. Just, you know, random people doing horrible things.

      And then he says “to OTHER MEN”. LOL

      He is actually talking about males, but refers to them as “people”. Like we don’t know.

  • Meghan Murphy

    That’s not the point she was making…

  • Melanie

    “It is voiced by some really credible people that the existence of child pornography, as sick as this might sound ,actually helped some paedophiles to delay real action. Moved their interest into the virtual world rather than in the neighbourhood kindergarden”.

    The rape of a child caught on film is real. Its not ‘the virtual world’. The pedophile who views it is complicit in the rape of that child and is violating that child. Your comment sounds sick, I agree.

  • Melanie

    My father was like that. He’s a narcissist and was very gleeful about manipulating and abusing people. He actually told me it was a game to him. I don’t believe that narcissists just have a poor, lost, wounded inner child that they’re trying to protect. In my experience they enjoy manipulating, abusing and humiliating people. As long as they come out on top and ‘win the game’ they don’t care.

  • Hekate Jayne

    The article critically analyzes the fact that so many dudes with violent porn on their computers actually end up killing women.

    That’s why it is focused on males. When a woman has violent porn on a computer, and proceeds to kill a male, then we can talk about it. But it hasn’t, and it won’t.

    So you say that “women have their part in this, too”. We know. We are aware. Violent males kill women DAILY. Our part is to attempt to not set off you overly emotional, ragey, violent manbabies.

    Because when you kill, beat, rape, murder us, there is always some of you that rush in, screaming “but it isn’t ever the fault of the male! It is HER fault!”

    We know, dude. We know. Never your fault. Not original or new.

  • therealcie

    I hadn’t seen the surgery ones, but the being roasted on a spit thing was something I saw several times in these “fetish comics.” I do know that there’s a medical fetish, but never thought about it including surgery. Sadly, I’m not at all surprised.

  • therealcie

    Not to me per se, but while I think that it’s suspect, it’s not the same caliber as fantasizing over actually killing people.

  • Melanie

    One the one hand you say that pornography doesn’t influence people to commit violence. They’ll do it if they’re going to do it, regardless of what material they view. But in the very next sentence you say that pornography can influence people not to commit violence. This is a contradiction.

    You also ignore the fact that pornography is very often violence in itself.

    • Omzig Online

      This guy is pulling the oldest male trick in the patriarchal book: trying to argue from both sides of the same topic, and hoping we won’t notice. Either porn influences human behavior, or it doesn’t. Can’t have it both ways.

  • Kiwipally

    But how else would we know these assfacts unless some bloke comes along to educate us?

  • Morag999

    Nothing like Feminist Current, but there are lots of feminist bloggers who are not the liberal, pro-trans, pro-pornography, sex(ism)-positive, “third wave” kind:

  • Kiwipally

    I don’t get this at all, what is with “shaming” people who enjoy consensual, loving, respectful sex? If that makes me a “prude”, I’m proud to be a prude.

  • Alienigena

    But is it prudery to not want to be abused. Some of us were physically and emotionally abused by fathers growing up and the last thing we want is more abusive men in our lives. I cut my hand and arm on shards of broken milk bottle as a five year old and still have an aversion to sharp objects, they make me sort of queasy. I can do the self-injury thing, I don’t need help. I think letting other people tell you what your boundaries are or should be is a failure of judgement. There are a lot of people who are quite keen to hurt others (outside of BDSM) don’t help them hurt you.

  • Hekate Jayne

    You said:
    “.I really do thing that pointing at them because a maniac had a BDSM fetish is not usefull for anyone.”

    It is not *A* maniac. There are a large number of males that have murdered women that also have violent porn on their computers.

    Surely you know that this is not an isolated incident. It is a pattern.

    And you want to disregard it. Of course you do. Dr. McFullofShit.

  • marv

    “BDSM is portrayed as a male project, something men initiate and women endure.
    Non-radfem women are portrayed here as passive objects, foolish child-like creatures devoid of both agency and of an authentic self, empty vessels just waiting to be brainwashed by the millions of copies of 50 Shades which someone poured into them.”

    The bible is a male devised project as well. Despite the book’s misogyny dressed up as salvation, numerous women believe it with their whole hearts.

    Why is it so hard to accept the power of patriarchal liberal indoctrination when we readily admit the conservative version? Why do workers accept capitalism, the middles class dream and consumerism? Why marriage? The nuclear family? Speciesism?

    None of these institutions are freely chosen. We are born and acculturated into them.

    Where is the evidence you are not a zombie?

  • Cassandra

    Wow are you full of shit.

    Child porn is not the “virtual world.” Child porn is real, you asshole.

    And if you’re a doctor I’m the Easter Bunny.

    • -Jane Don’t-

      How anyone can hurt a child is beyond me. I see stupid shits being arrested for abusing little girls and I always think of my friend’s daughter and it just makes me sick to my stomach. No child – girl or boy – should experience anything abusive. No person should for that matter. Sigh. Society sucks. 🙁

  • Cassandra

    “So now women fantasize about abuse because of patriarchal society, they can’t help themselves, it’s their most intimate desire, and the men in power are to blame, lol.”

    This is 100% true though, lol.

  • marv

    Look at a woman like Monica Lewinsky who was sexually abused by Bill Clinton. She very well may have not seen it as abuse but part of living out the fantasy of having a sexual relationship with a powerful man. Power shapes desire, and in a male dominant world inner longings are not exempt from being steered by men’s hierarchies.

    I noticed your helmet. Another place we can see how men have captured women’s eagerness is in men’s sports: hockey, football, baseball, basketball…. How could it be a natural inclination to craze over watching a bunch of buffoons doing silly and often violent performances? Of course men and their fans won’t give you an honest socially conscious answer.

  • Cassandra

    Third wave feminism, porn and the culture of “identity” and “individuality” have done a thorough job, huh? It’s so depressing I could cry for a million years.

  • kfwkfw

    Btw-yeah a human mind is capable of having a fetish & masturbating to porn, it’s just not the norm whatsoever for females to have fetishistic fantasies & be gross indulgers, like men.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t really believe that *anyone’s* sexuality is “an entirely personal thing”…. I think that what we find “sexy” is shaped by the society we live in. Yes, individuals differ a lot in terms of what they personally are into, but the idea that our desires come out of nowhere seems naive to me.

  • Hekate Jayne

    A male that gets an erection from pretend violence or actual violence directed at a woman is unsafe.

  • Hekate Jayne

    I read her first sentence as sarcasm.

  • Hekate Jayne

    He is an ass.

    • Yisheng Qingwa

      Thank you… please keep reminding me… I love you, mystery lady. xoxo

      • Hekate Jayne

        I love you, too. 😉

  • calabasa

    You are astoundingly obtuse.

    1) Pornography does not prevent sexual violence. Porneography IS sexual violence.
    2) “Rape rates” commonly measure stranger rape. Pornography use leads to an increase in all the most common types of rape: familial, acquaintance, date and intimate partner rape.
    3) Child-on-child rape has being occurring with ever-increasing frequency as children have ready access to gonzo porn at younger and younger ages.

  • calabasa

    You are very stupid.

    What are you doing here? Go away.

  • calabasa

    I repeat: veeeeery stupid. Go away.

  • Wren

    lololololol Wikipedia?!?!?

  • FierceMild

    Mash a PERF!

  • FierceMild


  • Melanie

    How does a ‘sane’ person get ‘ínsane’ to the point that they want to rape, torture or murder someone? This doesn’t just happen in a vacuum. It’s not a coincidence that almost all rapists, pedophiles and sex criminals have collections of violent pornography. Not all rapists and murders are insane anyway. Some simply enjoy inflicting violence, pain and fear and exerting power over other people. They’re rational and know exactly what they’re doing. BDSM and violent pornography provides them with reinforcement, gives them ideas and normalizes their attitudes and desires, lessening their ‘conservative instinct’. Pedophiles commonly use pornography in this way to bond with other pedophiles, to normalize and reinforce their attitudes and behaviors and to groom their victims. You yourself conveniently see a link between porn and human behavior when it suits your argument. While it’s difficult to prove this scientifically there is some evidence to show this process, for example some men begin using mainstream pornography and gradually move to more violent pornography or even images of child rape because their brains are being rewired to desire more violence and suffering. You could also ask the countless girls and women who have directly experienced the role that pornography has played in the sexual harassment, abuse, molestation, sexual assault and rape that they’ve suffered.

    Also pornography is very often violence in itself. This is why I’m so disturbed by the suggestion that pedophiles watching the filmed rape of children can prevent them from raping other children. How could anyone say such a thing unless their mind has become so desensitized that they don’t even hear what a horrific thing they’re saying? Has it been conditioned through pornography or other media to become so detached and unthinking that we start to see human beings and their suffering as simply ‘virtual media’ or entertainment? It’s not a personal attack by the way. I just think it proves my point. Pornography can have a desensitizing, dehumanizing effect. It may not be the only cause of rape and murder but dehumanizing other human beings is the first step. Normalizing misogyny, violence, rape and torture doesn’t help either, to state the obvious.

  • Hekate Jayne

    Women don’t masturbate to porn involving dudes getting cut open or otherwise mutilated, and then go and actually kill males, either.

    But they get really defensive when we talk about them doing it.

    It is funny to me that in patriarchy, males are given humanity and dignity as default, while we are just objects. When it seems that women have a ton of humanity, and males seem to have none.

    We get lonely and angry, but we don’t kill masses of males. Maybe it is because males just insure that everything gets handed to them, while we have to beg/work/ask endlessly, and still end up with very little.

  • Melanie

    You’re advocating for children who have been raped to continue to be sexually and psychologically violated over and over again by pedophiles under the ignorant assumption that rather than encouraging pedophiles by normalizing and encouraging their behavior it will somehow make them stop. This is so appalling and disturbing. Are you going to be the guy who hands over the filmed rape of a child to your local pedophile? Have a think about that.

  • Mmmeee

    “hard to believe…”

  • Virginia Howard
  • Virginia Howard

    I have a feeling that Simon White is a kind of feckless, random debating-society guy. According to his history on Disqus, he’s been trying on a number of hyper-rational positions. I don’t think he’ll ever put his body on the line for any issue. And to put your body on the line for women, boy… You’d have to be able to identify with Her. With HER!

  • kfwkfw

    For real though!

  • meh

    No paedophile anywhere ever was helped not to rape and degrade children by watching someone rape and degrade actual children. You fucking loathesome creepy disgusting pig. We know exactly what you are and it’s not a doctor. I wish there was some way to report you to the police in the real world.

    • Hekate Jayne

      Man logicks!

      • meh

        So completely disgusting. He makes me sick. And he actually thinks we don’t know EXACTLY what he is.

  • meh

    If you have kids they need to be protected.

  • meh

    You had to study how to rape kids to tell everyone else it’s ok to rape kids? Seems odd but I hope your studies land you in prison.

  • catlogic

    “Being illegal i doubt child pornography is made for money.”

    You heard it here folks, nobody commits crime for money, because it’s illegal!

  • catlogic

    ::hands FierceMild some spare tissues::

  • Melanie

    It’s not very interesting or spontaneous is it? Imagine following a tired, cliched script that looks like it came straight out of the Bible every time you had sex. Or signing a contract like it’s some kind of business transaction. If I didn’t find it so disturbing and ethically wrong I would die of boredom.

  • Independent Radical

    As important as love is (yes I’m one of those horrible people who thinks sex should occur within loving monogamous relationships), sadomasochists can use it to their advantage.

    Dominants make submissive fall in love with them so that they will put down their boundaries out of trust (which they equate with love) and allow dominants to do even more horrific things to them. If you ask me, love is as good as the person/thing you love. It is dangerous to love the wrong person.

    The problem isn’t so much that people don’t value love and “bonding” (which can occur in all kinds of horrific ways), but that they have a twisted view of what love is. They see as it either consuming passion (basically extreme lust that makes your brain switch off), emotional dependence (feeling that you “can’t live without” someone) or, worst of all, complete trust and a willingness to be completely vulnerable around your partner.

    The last definition in particular is disturbingly common, even among anti-BDSM sex-negatives and other “vanilla” people. Teenagers complain that condemns destroy “emotional intimacy” (as if emotions can be destroyed by physical objects), suggesting that they can’t feel close to their partners unless they’re potentially danger of getting an STI and have to trust that their partners don’t have one.

    I’m not arguing that condemns are the greatest thing ever (especially since they’re used as an excuse for casual sex) and there are good reasons not to use them, but this trust-centered reasoning seems messed up to me. It’s also the core of sadomasochism, at least within sadomasochist relationships.

    You can’t pull off a dramatic display of trust without danger, though, of course, it’s only women who are expected to make these dramatic displays of trust. Men just say they love/trust women and that’s it.

    It’s sounds horrible to attack trust, but the fact is deadly sex isn’t possible without it. People engaged in these activities shouldn’t be putting such extreme levels in trust in flawed human beings (though thanks to liberalism, telling a man they have flaws is now considered abusive).

    Furthermore, trust is not the same thing as love. Do people love their doctors, pilots, etc just because they trust them? No, love requires liking things about a person and that requires getting to know them, which requires talking about things other than sex and you’re right, liberals do hate that.

    Non-fanatical trust is essential to relationships and any other human interaction, but love is more than that. It also includes not wanting a person to get hurt. Women might feel that they’re proving their trust (and therefore love) by putting themselves in danger, but never bother to make men prove that they love them.

    Should men be putting themselves in danger to prove their love? No, the best way men can prove they love a women is by not wanting women to get hurt by anyone, including them. If a man gives up his sexual pleasure to keep the woman he loves free from pain and risk, that is proof love (not that anybody should be demanding proof in the first place).

    We don’t just need to encourage love, we need a new definition of it, because the dominant definitions were developed in the context of male dominance and revolve around it. I think this will also lead to radically different, gentler sexualities.

    Sadly, the sadomasochist claim that all sexual behaviours are like their practices is true to an extent. In regular intercourse the person being penetrated is at greater risk than the person doing the penetration, so willingness to be penetrated becomes a measure of trust, but in the eyes of sadomasochists regular intercourse isn’t dangerous enough to fully demonstrate trust.

    It’s not enough for them that women trust them not to give them an STI or unwanted pregnancy by pulling out at the last moment while they’re at the height of their arousal. They have to trust them not to kill them while they’re strangling them and getting aroused by the fact that they can’t breath.

    Obviously sadomasochist practices are much more extreme than regular intercourse (unless you count extremely mild stuff, like gentle spanking, as sadomasochism, but those sorts of practices are really just used by sadomasochists to get their foot in the door and to market themselves to mainstream culture as a “safer” sexuality), but I don’t think we’re going to be that effective at challenging sadomasochism is what we’re offering is a milder form of the same thing.

    We really do need a revolution in sexuality, but not a liberal kind. Couples need to be challenged to make their sexual practices as gentle as positive. This will mean different things for different people. In some cases it will mean switching from deadly sadomasochism back to regular intercourse, but eventually it may lead to a move away from intercourse, since there still is so much pain and risk involved for women.

    If couples find ways to experience pleasure without those unnecessary risks they should be praised, not condemned as having an incomplete relationship that “didn’t go all the way”.

    It’s unfortunate that so few feminists, even those who are sex-negative, are willing to challenge intercourse, because intercourse then becomes the only thing we can offer to heterosexual women in place of sadomasochism and many sadomasochists have already tried intercourse and were dissatisfied, so they assumed they need more violence when in fact they may have needed less.

    I fear anti-sadomasochists are focusing too much on the problem, when we should be providing a positive alternative. Advocating love in place of a cold desire for easy pleasure is a step forward, but it’s not the full solution. We need to teach people what real love is.

  • Swannie

    I came out against this normalization of extreme behaviors, many years ago. I refused to surrender to the lie, that BDSM, and extreme kink, was a SPIRITUAL PATH, in the pagan community, but rather believe that it is an aberration from healthy behaviors. I still believe this is true.
    I know this is an oversimplification, but how can you believe “Do No Harm” and harm someone during an intimate encounter?
    But the questions, and issues go far deeper than that. It speaks to sex addiction, and criminally deviant behaviors. And the perpetrators, in my experience, and I have experience with helping abused children, almost never take responsibility.

  • Rachael

    I assume you were directing this at Simon? 🙂

    • Melanie

      Oops, yes I was was. Sorry! 🙂

  • Hekate Jayne

    You said:
    “…..from what i had seen, none of you are open to debate. Not with men. Not with anyone that has any oppinion other than yours.”

    If your opinion is that child rape prevents child rape, that it is ok parental judgement to leave your kids with a known pedophile, and that males are going to keep on raping just because………

    Then yeah. We aren’t open to debate that “opinion”.

    But we are just so angry and closed minded that we bring male violence on ourselves. I mean, we demand that it stop, and that is just unreasonable!

    Fuck you.

    • Morag999

      “But we are just so angry and closed minded that we bring male violence on ourselves. I mean, we demand that it stop, and that is just unreasonable!”

      Yes, that’s exactly what The Doctor is telling us. That we will never be able to prevent men raping women and children because of our incorrect attitudes. Our failure to be pleasant is the real problem.

      Then again, even if we show a good, “reasonable” attitude, fold our hands on our laps and demure to men’s opinions, we will never be able to stop men raping. Because, says he, they’re just going to get drunk or go crazy and do it anyway. C’est la vie.

      However, even though he’s sure men will never stop, and even though the situation is pretty hopeless, The Doctor still prescribes for women a winning strategy: stop activating against snuff films and rape-promoting propaganda, keep our anger suppressed, and open our minds to male geniuses pontificating about how the rape of a child over here might prevent the rape of a child over there. Sad, but necessary: this child or that one. Make your choice calmly, please.

      We women, with our awful anger problem, should be satisfied — instead of grief-stricken and outraged — with this “solution” he’s offering. Trading one rape for another.

      See? Feminists trying to put a stop to the recording and distribution of the abuse, sexualized torture and murder of children and women is worse than useless. Because if men aren’t permitted to do violence to their favourite victims, and/or enjoy watching other men do violence to their favourite victims, they will just find other victims. And who will be to blame for THAT? Angry feminists, of course.

      Unreasonable women will be to blame. For failing to recognize the method in men’s madness. For meddling with how men meticulously organize their sociopathy and sadistic violence into a nice continuum. For interfering with the delicate balance of the abuse-torture-rape-murder ecosystem in which men dwell. For not allowing each man the peace, quiet and space he requires to fulfil his specialized role in keeping the whole bloody system intact and functioning.

      The Doctor advises that we should sit back, let the men get on with it, and — most important — stop being so damned angry about their pain- and death-loving proclivities. Unless, of course — and here comes the inevitable threat — we want them to become even MORE sexually deranged and homicidal?

      • Hekate Jayne

        And let’s not forget who is going to be forced to give birth to those children that dudes so badly need to rape, film it, and distribute it (At a financial loss, too, because child porn doesn’t make money, according to Dr. McDumbass), all in the pure and holy effort of stopping males from raping too many children.

        And you know what I especially fucking hate? The tone. The tone of “listen, little dainty ladies, child porn is actually good, and you ladies are just too stupid to understand, why you so angry, tho, honey pie?”

        Yep. Males only have 2 choices, according to them. They control feminism, exactly to their (violent, rapey) expectations, OR they form a woman hating mob. No other options. And their choice to disregard us as human is just all our own fault.

  • Hekate Jayne

    All of those are qualities that we have! And males hate It!

    Prude Pride it is, then.

    • Virginia Howard

      Mine’s a pruney-prude-pride alright! And here’s another one: I’m a GRIN, as in a Gender Role Intolerant.

  • Independent Radical

    Yes, love tends to render women stupid in stories. I say “stupid” and not “helpless”, because we should attack women for lacking power or being vulnerable. What you meant probably is that women is love are represented as being incapable of making good decisions, so I’ll give you a pass.

    Love can also make men stupid in stories, but those cases it tends to lead to violence rather than submission. For men “losing control” because of love or other drug-like influences means something very different from what it does for women. This is obviously a product of gender (masculinity vs. femininity).

    But I do think we need to oppose definitions of love that celebrate crazy passion and lack of self control. I think we have romanticism and the (original) free love movement to blame for this sort of thinking. Contrary to popular belief, neither movement argued in favour of casual sex or “sexual liberation” as liberals put it, but they did argue that you shouldn’t question your emotions.

    For sex liberals arousal is an emotion (or at least has the same status as emotions in their minds). As somewhat of a philosophical traditionalist I think arousal and other physiological responses are more primitive than emotions and reason (both of which developed later in humans’ evolutionary and are therefore more uniquely human), but liberals don’t make that distinction. So they take the “don’t question your emotions/desires” idea and apply it to sex.

    Both romanticism and the free love movement had their value at the time when they flourished, but feminism (which historically developed out of them) inherited a lot of bad ideas from them. While not being sex liberals, radical feminists buy into a lot of the same general ideas in different contexts.

    Feminism is tied to emotion-centric thinking because women have historically been excluded from areas associated with rationality and assumed to be more (irrationally) emotional, so they rebel against classical ways of thinking (that were more skeptical of emotion).

    However, with women entering into traditionally man-dominated fields, the idea that they should cling to feminine ideologies (for lack of a better word) is sexist.

    I wish there were a brand of feminism that drew upon valid viewpoints that women have been excluded from, such as those that emphasised rationality, self-control with regard to desires/emotions (which contrary to liberal belief, isn’t the same thing as repressing them) and sound decision making that involved balancing risk and reward instead of the risky thing for the sake of doing the risky thing.

    Those who previously drew upon these viewpoints were men and they ended up concluding that sex was wonderful, because for men is rewarding and relatively free from risk.

    If women did rational, cost-benefit analyses with regard to sex (both sadomasochism and “vanilla” intercourse) they would probably end up concluding that the reward of sexual pleasure (which often isn’t even present in intercourse) did not justify the serious risks involved.

    That would lead to a lot less intercourse (especially now that new technologies are making it less essential for reproduction) and certainly no sadomasochism and men (particularly those with power) having done their own cost benefit analyses are afraid of that.

    So women aren’t allowed to start questioning sexuality in case they go down that road and kept up concluding that sex needs to be (truly) revolutionised. The fact that we aren’t allowed to question it is all the more reason to question it.

  • Bleeps3

    I always wonder what people that dead inside get out of living.

    • -Jane Don’t-

      Well, they torture others to feel “alive.” I think I’m going to go throw up now and cry. How can someone treat another person like that?!!!!

  • Leo

    I’ve met too many nerdy women who were into fanfic in person to think that’s always the case – there are definitely women who are very openly into this stuff. It can notoriously be kind of obvious from the way they write, too…gay men at least probably understand how male anatomy works!

  • Omzig Online

    Calm down, little buddy. We’re not angry at you. Just having a little fun at your expense.

    You cited a source call ScienceDaily. As a “doctor,” you should probably know that this is not a legit source of information. They are essentially a press-release farm that churnes out highly edited and repackaged press releases under the pretense of journalism. They often produce fake news. A little scientific rigor and critical thinking on your part would’ve prevented you from disseminating shoddy informationI over the Internet. I hope that you do a better job of seeking out more reliable sources of data in the future, for the sake of your patients.

  • Melanie

    You still don’t get it. You don’t seem to understand that accessing images of child abuse and child rape is in itself an abhorrent crime against children. It’s a record of a rape. It’s the sexual and psychological violation of a child. The material is not simply a movie. It’s not just online entertainment for pedophiles, which may or may not stop them from raping another child. It’s a crime. You seem unable to register that those children are real people who have a right to be free from violence and exploitation. Maybe this is because you yourself have been so desensitized by pornography or other violent media that you can only see them as images on a screen, a movie. In which case you’re proving our arguments for us. Can you imagine how that would re-traumatize and devastate those children? To know that they’re rape has been reduced to entertainment for the same pedophiles who raped them, and that society condoned that? Apparently not. This is why people are angry at you. Men like you set such a low bar and you think you have a right to set it.”I’ll take that”, you said. What gives you the right to sacrifice a child for some sick bastard, who you yourself said is going to do it anyway regardless of what they do or don’t watch? At least get your story straight before you go running off.

  • marv

    Men of science and medicine are infamous for analyzing violence, porn and pedophilia as issues of psychosis and in gender neutral terms. They are unscientific for shutting their eyes to the objective sexual politics causing these behaviors in men. Male supremacy is the foundation of societies and the unexamined bias behind “common sense”, “tons of studies and meta analyses and paying attention to all opinions.” Science can’t get past its obtuseness because of male class self-interest falsifying the scientific method.

    You have a warped brain because of patriarchal training, and like so many others in the discipline a disgrace to true science. I would wish you to break away from dogmatic scientific sexism but am not gullible to believe it could happen.

  • Tobysgirl

    I don’t think I’ve ever mentioned this on FC, but many years ago there was a radical feminist publication that was profoundly affected by lesbians who were into S&M (as it was then known) insisting that all radical feminists acknowledge their sexual preferences and honor them (because not doing so was the same as denying lesbians’ right to existence). Many lesbians, of course, disagreed with this position, and the arguments were ugly. Then I recently read a radical lesbian feminist saying that it was straight women who had brought S&M into the women’s movement. This was emphatically not my experience, kink as it is now known being a fairly rare phenomenon in straight women’s lives, and much more common among gay men, and straight men who exploited prostitutes to satisfy their deviant sexual urges.

  • susannunes

    Yes, the issue of porn IS black and white. It is prostitution on film, which in turn is paid rape, which in turn is human rights abuse and should not be allowed. There is nothing else to debate.

  • Kiwipally

    BDSM is sexual abuse. Name the problem.

  • FierceMild

    So now being beaten while someone sodomizes you is equivalent to stubbing a toe? You aren’t thinking very logically, I wonder what your stake in this game is?

  • FierceMild

    I’m soooooo glad you came along to tell Yisheng all about her life! How else would she have known what she was doing and how men paying her to do what they wanted her to do sexually was actually her being

  • FierceMild


    • Hekate Jayne

      His boner is his citation.

  • FierceMild

    Oh well, being hurt is fine as long as it isn’t physically lasting. So why don’t we just have a community of white southern men who consensually enslave black southerners? After all, it might hurt, but it doesn’t have to harm.

  • FierceMild

    Also? Like, when men pay women for certain sex acts? That’s, like, totally misandrist. And I’m a doctor! Well, not really a doctor, but I impersonate one on the Internet.

    • will

      Oh right… I forgot how wiley and powerful sex workers manipulate vulnerable men, force them into sex acts and then take their money. Evil misandrists, indeed!

      • Hekate Jayne

        Sex work is empowering! That is why so many males do It!

        Oh. Nevermind. Males dominate government, law and legal professions, IT, etc. Males keep women out of the most lucrative fields because those jobs don’t “empower” women.

        Males traffic women and buy and sell us as boner commodities because that is where the REAL empowerment is. Us silly females need to learn how to let the superior, smarter males empower us, by generously allowing us to please their boners.

        Man logicks!


        • FierceMild

          You should start a man logicks twitter

      • FierceMild

        Wanna be evil misandrists for Halloween? Slutty ones, obvs.

  • Hekate Jayne

    Will. Is it just me, or is this kind of New?

    It seems like the male narrative is subtley moving from “rape is horrible, not all men tho, we are working on trying to stop it” to “some males are just going to rape, child porn might be the answer, it is bad, but oh well.”

    I mean, we have always had the male advice of “don’t fight too hard, give us what we want and may be we won’t hurt you too badly”.

    But now that we straight up demand that it stops, it feels like it is shifting a bit. To males openly saying that SOME rape is going to have to be acceptable because it stops other rape.

    Is it just me? Anyone else?

    • will

      I think that, as the arguments feminists make become harder and harder to refute, as more women speak out about their experiences, the push back becomes both more batshit and more aggressive. They are writhing into little knots of their own bullshit, trying desperately to hold onto the free ride they have always enjoyed. They know what useless shits they unmistakably are when their privilege is stripped away and they are desperately babbling in terror of that.

  • Melanie

    Pornography has the incredible ability to influence people for the good, but it has no negative influence whatsoever. It has no effect on human thought or behavior at all, except when it suits us, for example when we want to defend our porn use. Amazing.

  • Hekate Jayne

    Isn’t it interesting that he says a 23 year old committed a rape, and that is how he phrased it. Exactly.

    A 23 year old. He didn’t have to say a 23 year old MALE.

    But we all automatically know it is a male. And he didn’t say it because it is always so obvious.

  • Hekate Jayne

    But he really, really believed it was 9 inches.

    • FierceMild

      He IDENTIFIES as nine inches.

      • Hekate Jayne

        Well then, that is settled.

        Man feelz is the ultimate (ass)facts!!!!

        He identifies. Therefore he be. Can’t argue with that iron logicks.

    • -Jane Don’t-

      He’s YUGE. Of course. (eye roll)

  • melissa

    mass noun

    1Physical injury, especially that which is deliberately inflicted.
    ‘I didn’t mean to cause him any harm’

    1.1 Material damage.
    ‘it’s unlikely to do much harm to the engine’

    1.2 Actual or potential ill effects or danger.
    ‘there’s no harm in asking her’

    [with object]

    1Physically injure.
    ‘the villains didn’t harm him’

    1.1 Damage the health of.
    ‘smoking when pregnant can harm your baby’ ”

    Harm isn’t dependent on permanence. Not that semantics nullify anyone’s objections here.

  • melissa

    ” who were literally begging you to “abuse” THEM, and you want to call
    Patriarchy? You are one clueless idjut. Female empowerment dynamics,
    such as Pro-Domme work, are quite often Misandry based, not misogynist. ”

    Yea, abuse which often entail things like pegging, feminizing, using derogatory gender based terms like cunt, bitch etc. Essentially treat him how misogynists like to treat women.

    Nothing “empowering” about adopting the same male misogynistic behavior. Abuse is abuse.

  • melissa

    verb :1Physically injure.

    verb:1. cause physical pain or injury to

    This is a dumb argument.

    “It also, at times, involves no physical discomfort at all, and is a relationship style known as a Power Exchange.”

    TPE relationships often tick most boxes on a DV checklist.Controlling, threatening,punishing, monitoring etc etc. Uneven power dynamics are inextricably linked to abusive relationships. At best you get something like how fundamentalists that adhere to strongly patriarchal abhrahamic faiths tend to live. Which again, a horribly misogynistic worldview. Everything about BDSM is antithetical to feminism, whether agreed upon or not.

  • Kiwipally

    And here comes the MRA brigade to tell us that BDSM is not the abuse of women, and that abuse of women is actually empowerment and evidence that women rule society. Fuck off.

    • Hekate Jayne

      See, when Yisheng tells us about her experiences, we aren’t supposed to find her to be credible.

      We cannot trust her, you see, because women are unreliable narrators. The only way we can trust her is if she says what males sanction as appropriate.

      So when women say that they had bad experiences in “sex work”, those women are lying liar slut prudes that we shouldn’t listen to.

      But when women support the sale of other women for males to purchase as boner pleasers, then those women are totally cool and awesome.

      We are only doing feminism correctly when males are getting their boners pleased. And being critical of “sex work” makes for a flacid penis. And a flacid penis is a sad penis!

      Let’s not forget what is important (to males) in our feminism, ladies! Lest the males get all flacid and withdraw their support!

    • fragglerock

      The mention of “misandry” negated Darkroom’s entire comment for me.

  • Kiwipally

    That’s right, because the history of psychiatry has been one long history of ethical mental health practices, that uphold women.


  • Kiwipally

    Trying to work out if you are lying or stupid (you could be both). At no point are you recognising psychological harm, you disingenuous MRA.

  • kfwkfw

    I’m sensing that, too

  • Hekate Jayne

    Why would you ever purposely stub your toe?

    Is that a new kink?

  • Hekate Jayne

    Sex work is female empowerment?

    There is an idiot here. But it Isn’t Yisheng.

    Also, Yisheng Isn’t entitled to an opinion on “sex work”? Oh, that is right, she is only allowed an opinion if that opinion defends the “right” of males to purchase women as commodities to please their most important boners.

    Her experience and opinion is ignored, unless she agrees with you. How feminist of you, dude. Way to listen to sex workers.

  • Hekate Jayne

    Male organizations agree that it is wonderful to HARM women during sex????

    Shocking. Did you know that first wave feminists were anti PIV? And that the (all male) psychiatry establishment decided that women that didn’t want to engage in PIV were “fridgid”? The (male) media of the time began printing stories of how women who were spinsters were “frigid”, unfulfilled, and often mentally ill. Women were trying to separate from you, and doing really well at it. Hysterical, overly emotional, needy creatures that you are, males tried to impose societal pressure to keep women in servitude to you.

    See, when we say no to you, you immediately use your male systems to pressure us into going along with whatever you want.

    So the “doctor” downthread is advocating for the rape of children. I am wondering if you support that.

    Nevermind. He is a “doctor”. So if he says it, I am sure that you will agree. Because the doctor says so.

  • FierceMild

    How do you superscript?!

    Also, I’m glad you found access to your own soul, and I think you’re a valuable and intelligent person.

    • will

      Thanks FierceMild! 🙂 I just do shift or caps-lock. I have not figured out italics or bold, despite the instructions here. :/

      • FierceMild

        Hmmmm. I’m almost always commenting from my phone (hence the copious autocorrected weirdnesses and fatfingering mistakes). I’llntry thatbthe next time I’m in my actual computer.

        It’s really hard to explain the italics but because if I actually do the keystrokes it’ll just italicize. So let’s try again. I’ll see if this new way works:
        Then type whatever you want italicized.
        Then type
        To turn it off.

  • FierceMild

    It’s not people, it’s men. I know it’s hard to get in the habit of speaking that truth, but honestly, do you know anyone who was sexually abused by their mother or stepmother? Now how many abused by their father or stepfather? I know I women can and do sexually abuse, but the numbers are close to null compared to men.

    • -Jane Don’t-

      You’re correct on that. I initially thought the route you were going to go was talking about men being abused, in which my reply would have been that my former professor was raped by his cousin (a guy) as a child. Why is it almost always men? Christ, it disgusts me. And it makes me scared of them and their motives….

      • FierceMild

        They are terrifying when you really look at them. They have chosen to trade their humanity for dominance. It’s nauseating.

  • FierceMild

    Right? Because they think sex itself is dirty and rebellious and the dirtier and nastier it is the more sex-like it is. Bo-ring.

    Whatever happens to being really turned in by a picnic with someone you love in a meadow?

  • fragglerock

    The sexualization of something does not legitimize it. Sexualizing hurt/harm is not just problematic, it’s dangerous and not questioning that is just as dangerous.

  • fragglerock

    The DSM is the source of a lot of contention in the mental health field and is far from universally accepted.

  • will

    “You are one clueless idjut.”

    You need to look up “psychological projection”, but I suppose you’d have to pull you head out of your ass to do so, and that would be too much to ask.

    I will ask that you fuck off with the incoherent name-calling. Yisheng’s contribution to the conversations here is something many of us value very much. Yours on the other hand, just add to the heap of evidence that defenders of the conservative/regressive/fake-edgy kinksterism is intellectual gobbledegook.

  • will

    ““My boyfriend doesn’t even like to dominate me, he just does it because I want him to!”

    If that’s true, you are scum. Teaching a male to mistreat women is the lowest of the low. A woman who urges a man into sadomasochism teaches a man women like to be abused. This is anti-woman betrayal of the highest order.”

    I like this quote.

  • will

    SO true!! Without sexual repression, all of this sexifunness implodes. As soon as someone starts with “naughty”, “dirty” nonsense (in the name of healthy sexuality), I just feel depressed.

    Imagine the same dissonance projected onto food:

    “Who’s the naughty little cook, then? I’ll bet your just dying to turn on the griddle and start frying aren’t you, you dirty little chef? Let’s see some of that nasty chewing and swallowing!! Yeah baby! MASTICATE THAT LETTUCE!”

  • -Jane Don’t-

    Oh my god this brought tears to my eyes. How horrific.

  • -Jane Don’t-

    Hugs. <3

  • -Jane Don’t-

    Ha, the poly crowd are an interesting bunch. Some dude a few years ago (he was also married) wanted to date me, and the whole thing just weirded me out. Nope, not going to be sloppy seconds. But yeah, they talk about it non-stop. (eye roll)

    • Hekate Jayne

      I don’t like touching salt shakers at restaurants because of germs. Same with ATMs, gas pumps, etc.

      So you can imagine how penis germs freak me the fuck out. That, and males are just kind of disgusting.

      On one of the PUA websites a while back, one of the more infamous dudes was whining about all of the time consuming inconveniences of personal hygiene that he was forced to engage in as only a politeness to the women that he was tricking into sex.

      On that list was wearing deodorant, cleaning his dick and balls, making sure his nose was clean, and my personal favorite, wiping his ass.

      Personal hygiene be MISANDRY.

      And the comments section was full of dudebros all chiming in with “hells ya! Why should I have to clean my body to fuck stupid sluts?!?!”

      And I again felt horribly bad for the women before us. The women that were owned as property and traded between males, without any regard about what they wanted. I am betting that lots of dudes back then were just physically disgusting because they could be. And the poor women. If I.

      I mean, this is the half of humanity that is so lazy that they sneakily and manipulatively force the other half of us into domestic servitude to them. They are literally too ignorant to do simple tasks, like following a recipe or doing laundry.

      So I am not surprised that personal hygiene is something else that they just can’t be bothered with. The ultimate laziness. Uniquely male, lol.

  • -Jane Don’t-

    I was accused of being “clingy” when a supposed “friend” of mine thought it was weird I didn’t want to be friends with benefits. Heaven forbid I want someone to give two shits about me before I allow them to enter my body….

  • -Jane Don’t-

    I pretty new to this too. I unfortunately used to be a lib-fem. Embarrassed to say….But Christ, I’m glad I saw the light. (No, I will not use that stupid word “woke.”)

  • -Jane Don’t-

    Don’t criticize my friend. (Yes, I know her IRL.)

  • marv

    No thinking person could claim misandry in a world structurally organized by men. Would you also assert Indigenous people commit reverse colonization toward white people when the former denigrate the latter? Male dominance has frozen your mind and heart.

  • -Jane Don’t-

    I’m not joking. Meghan – would meet-ups ever be possible? I’m not far from Canada.

    • Meghan Murphy

      I know some women here have contacted me to put them in touch with one another — we could try that? I’m not currently in a position to plan a meetup, but one day it sure would be cool to plan something?

  • -Jane Don’t-

    Lol. That literally made me chuckle.

  • -Jane Don’t-

    Hugs to you Polly (if that’s okay for you.). <3

  • -Jane Don’t-

    The guy that raped me was a dom. He was stone cold sober & I thought I could trust him to give me a ride home after I had been drinking at my friends’ concert.

    Fuck. The bite marks. He laughed at me as he was fucking me & I kept saying no.

    I just froze.

  • Blazing Fire

    May be they were just doing locker-room-talk-as-per-Trump’s-definition.
    Trump claimed, when he was caught, that all his bragging about him groping women & doing worse stuff was not real, but just locker-room-talk..
    All his abuse IS real, but the fact that he says “it is not real, but just locker-room talk”, shows that male locker-room-talk involves a whole lot of unreal, imagined experiences about getting a lot out of women very easily.

    When one male brags, his peers don’t want to be left behind, so they come up with even more dramatic (worse/horrific) stories & it snowballs.

    Even without Trump enlightening us, we do know that males brag a lot, especially about women. If you _really_ couldn’t see that in the reddit page that you read, you are hopelessly retarded & have the maturity of a 3 year old who believes in tooth fairies.

  • Blazing Fire

    Thanks for the laugh! LOL

  • Hekate Jayne

    Hee hee 😉

  • Blazing Fire

    Exactly. Used to wonder why the western media uses “prude” as if it were a bad word! (Was totally bewildered the first couple of times I read “prude” used in a negative context..)

  • Emily Erin de Castrique

    As far as sex work: Do you know what “coercion” and “you need the money to eat” means? Also, The BDSM community turns a strong blind eye to the impact of sexual abuse on a person’s mindset and life…but I get it BDSM–your point is this: “Everythings fine and consensual, nothing to see here, don’t be so generalizing”…if there is a legitmate consensual-BDSM community than an article like this is not a threat. If you are leigitmately dealing with free-thinking adults then they can handle criticism of the “less-desirable” portions of the community.
    1984, much?

  • Angus McGee

    The local kink scene in my geography is heavily dominated by straight couples and trans (men). I have had two or three female lovers that brought up the BDSM ‘scene’ with me as something they were in to, and after deciding to dip a toe in the water to find out what it was about, I joined the local group in FetLife for my city. I went to a couple of events. The group seemed to be dominated by what some people would call “Queen Bee” type females (that term is admittedly pejorative but very descriptive for this purpose). These leaders typically had a “primary” sexual partner, typically married to a male but also had other things going on with other members of the group. There were a few very alpha style “Dom” men that typically had a couple of female ‘subs” and were living out the misogynistic fantasy. My reaction was that this whole thing was very subcultural, and that their activities were very unexamined as far as politics went aside from the dogmatic statements discussed in Meghan’s article such as being “sex positive” about whatever kink was brought up. As stated in the article, no critical discussion was allowed. I found the whole thing pretty horrifying and deleted my fetlife account. I tried to bring up some ideas of how porn is bad for both men (causes copulatory impotence) and women (obviously causes bizarre male expectations of female sexual behavior), but this was not the crowd for critical thinking.