The Aziz Ansari accusations may not be about rape, but they are about rape culture

Aziz Ansari isn’t an evil man — he is a completely normal man.

While the #MeToo movement has resulted in man after man being outed as rapists, serial harassers, or general creeps, we would be mistaken to view this as a kind of culling. The truth revealed via #MeToo is not that there are a lot of bad men in this world (though, of course, there are many), but that all men, in this culture, are socialized in a particular way, and that socialization is what leads to men’s disrespectful, unethical, and too-often violent treatment of women.

On Saturday, babe published the account of a then-22 year old woman named “Grace” (a pseudonym) who went on a date with actor and comedian, Aziz Ansari.

According to Grace, The comedian rushed through dinner before bringing her back to his apartment, where he immediately kissed, fondled, and performed oral sex on her. Grace said she felt uncomfortable at how quickly things escalated and voiced her hesitation, though she did reciprocate a little bit, leading many online to respond with frustration at the framing of Ansari’s behaviour as nonconsensual or predatorial.

Indeed, the two never do end up having intercourse. No rape takes place. Ansari was not violent. But it is exactly this that we should be paying attention to. We need not try to frame Ansari as a rapist or a “bad man” in order to be critical of his behaviour.

And, moreover, the reality is that the actor’s behaviour is completely normal. Men grow up in this culture learning that they should pursue women relentlessly and women learn that this behaviour is “romantic.” Young men often treat sex like a game or a contest, seeing how much “pussy” they can “get.” Men also learn that the goal of sex is their pleasure — an idea that is reinforced through industries like prostitution and pornography, wherein truly the only point of a sexual encounter is a man’s orgasm.

In this situation, Ansari displayed a complete lack of concern for his date’s feelings and desires. “He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” Grace explained in the piece. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.” Throughout the evening, Grace would pull away, and the actor would push forward, continuing to press for oral sex or intercourse. She left the date in tears, saying she felt “violated.”

Many people have read this story and responded with frustration, viewing the situation as nothing more than a “bad date,” or by asking why Grace didn’t just leave the apartment. For The Atlantic, Caitlin Flanagan presented Grace as partially responsible for the way the date played out. What happened, according to Flanagan, was the result of a lack of communication and differing expectations — a young woman chasing a famous man, hoping to finagle a “boyfriend,” versus a man who just wanted to get laid. Grace’s anger and hurt, Flanagan argues, is a result of feeling rejected and a desire to get revenge. And while indeed Grace may have felt “hurt,” to interpret those feelings as silly or irrational is irresponsible and dishonest — it assumes Grace is naive, and should have expected her date to treat her as nothing more than a vessel onto which he could project his desires. I mean, goodness, what woman wouldn’t feel hurt at learning their date has no interest in them as a person? It isn’t exactly naive to expect to be treated as a human being.

Flanagan responds to Grace’s comment — “You guys are all the fucking same” — by asking, if “this has happened to her many times before, what led her to believe that this time would be different?” But this kind of “boys will be boys” response is exactly the problem and is exactly why men have become accustomed to behaving in disrespectful, predatorial ways towards women, often without even realizing they are doing anything wrong.

At the risk of being accused of being “too nice” (something I am rarely accused of), I don’t want to vilify Ansari. I don’t think he is a particularly bad or dangerous man. Rather, he is a completely normal man, who has been socialized as all men have been under patriarchy.

I have been in countless situations like the one described by “Grace.” I have sometimes framed these experiences “grey rape,” because, while feeling disrespected, pressured, coerced, or even violated, there was technical, eventual consent. Women give in to male pestering for all sorts of reasons, sometimes because the man in question is a man they like and don’t want to offend or alienate, sometimes because they simply feel tired of politely fending of advances. The notion that men should pressure women into sex is so normalized in our culture that it’s treated as a cute joke when husbands do it to their wives, as though they are children begging for a cookie. But this behaviour isn’t harmless — it is rape culture

It is about how men view and treat women, it is about our notion of “romance,” which often is connected to dominating behaviour on the part of men; the romanticization of male control, jealousy, and even violence; and the notion that men should be the pursuers and that women must always be playing defense. It is about the idea that men “need” sex in order to survive and that they are incapable of controlling their desires.

How can we expect men to stop behaving like this when we are constantly normalizing and reinforcing this behaviour? While, indeed, individual men need to be held accountable for their behaviour, what also needs to happen is a cultural shift — one that all of us are responsible for participating in. We need to change our understanding of sex and courtship rituals; stop treating men as mindless animals, driven by uncontrollable sexual urges; stop normalizing the idea that “consent” is as simple as agreeing or acquiescing; and challenge the ubiquitous objectification of women, which reinforces the idea that women are things that exist for male pleasure or titillation.

Someone like Ansari is no criminal. He is not even a “bad” man. He is a product of our culture. And if we want to end rape in this culture, we need to address all the ways predatorial behaviour is normalized, not only violent situations and not only literal rape.

Meghan Murphy
Meghan Murphy

Founder & Editor

Meghan Murphy is a freelance writer and journalist. She has been podcasting and writing about feminism since 2010 and has published work in numerous national and international publications, including New Statesman, Vice, Al Jazeera, The Globe and Mail, I-D, Truthdig, and more. Meghan completed a Masters degree in the department of Gender, Sexuality and Women’s Studies at Simon Fraser University in 2012 and lives in Vancouver, B.C. with her dog.

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  • therealcie

    Sounds like most of the dates I’ve ever been on, no joke. Men who don’t just leap right on a woman are painfully rare. You are right in pointing out that Ansari is not a bad man, he is a normal man in this society. This is something that needs to change.

    • Hekate Jayne

      I stopped watching OITNB.

      But in one of the last ones I watched, there was a rape. It was the background story of the petite white girl, she had shot up an abortion clinic and she was addicted to drugs.

      Anyway, before she went to prison, she was at a party in a house and the beer was in the bathtub. She goes into get one and a male follows her into the bathroom. I can’t remember exactly what he said, but it was along the lines of her oweing him for something.

      He grabs her and tries to kiss her and fondle her, and she tries to fight him off. And there is this moment in time, and it is just a fraction of a second, where we can see that she just……….gives up.

      The look on her face is a million things. There is rage, anger, fear, sadness, knowledge that in a split second, a male can be on you and you just can’t get away. That the path of least resistance is the safest way while also being your only option when you can’t run or stop him.

      When I see that, and when I look at her, even though it is a fictional story with actresses, my response is much the same as hers. The rage, terror, the fear. The effort of making your mind take you literally anywhere else, trying to mentally escape the male violence that is actually inside of your body. And of just giving in because you can’t run or fight him off.

      Too many of us know exactly how that feels. And we know exactly what it is. It is rape.

      Too many males view that same scene, and they think that it is consent. Because she gave in.

      And if this is normal for males, and I do think that it is, I am not sure why we bother at all. Sexual coercion is not an accidental misunderstanding. It is violence that males choose with purpose and intent.

      Either way, if it is chosen or just an “oopsie”, I don’t know if one of those options is more frightening then the other.

  • Freegoddess

    I’ve been sharing this link a lot lately because it’s a brilliant analysis of how rape culture is perpetuated. Boys and men are constantly bombarded with messages that they are SUPPOSED to be the way they are in order to ‘get laid’. So, yeah, it’s ‘normal’ for men to be this way, but we have to go to the source – the core of the problem. Why? Why do they behave specifically like this? This article breaks it down into 7 categories of media propaganda that reinforce rape culture:

    1 – “Forcing Yourself On Women Makes Them Love You”
    2 – “Asking Permission Is A Sign Of Weakness”
    3 – “Women Like To Be Pursued, And Thus Always Play ‘Hard To Get’”
    4 – “Everything Women Do Is Intended To Stoke Male Hunger”
    5 – “Sexual Assault = Guy In An Alley With A Knife”
    6 – “All Sex Outside Of (Heterosexual) Marriage Is Wrong”
    7 – “Boys Will Be Boys”

  • TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsYoya

    Flanagan’s “lack of communication” excuse is so annoying. *Of course*, it’s up to the woman to communicate isn’t it?

    Men have been making the rules about rape, not-rape and “grey rape” without consulting women much. Well, the rules are changing boys and I have no sympathy.

    • lk

      But the fact is that she did communicate with him.

      Every time she moved away from him, everytime he put her hand on his crotch and she pulled it away.

      Every time she did that, she was telling him that she really didn’t want to be doing sexual stuff.

  • Thank you.

  • Hekate Jayne

    Women say: “Men. We want to have relationships with you. Some fun relationships, some serious, but we need all of them to be safe for us. Can you please treat us as human beings and listen when we speak? If we say that we are uncomfortable, or to stop, can you please respect our words and our rights as human beings?”

    Male response: “LOL, BOYS GONNA BE BOYS, what do you expect? Please suck my dick. No, I am serious, imma need you to suck my dick, tho.”

  • M. Zoidberg

    >>”I mean, goodness, what woman wouldn’t feel hurt at learning their date has no interest in them as a person? It isn’t exactly naive to expect to be treated as a human being.

    Damn, why can’t we all just be the emotionless fuck-holes that men want us to be?!

  • Clare De Mayo

    Not sure I agree on this one. where does the hook up culture very much promoted by many women play into this? Why did Grace think it was anything more than a casual date leading to sex? Why did she stay and watch TV? We have to be very careful of not portraying women as if they have no agency. She wasn’t forced to stay, why she did is really quite confusing. Did she want a boyfriend, or did she want to say she’d hooked up with someone famous, but then the situation felt more than she could handle? Did she think that by staying she’d be able to turn a casual encounter into something more serious? No doubt many will jump down my throat on this one, but we don’t have to portray sex as sweet and romantic in order to expose very bad behaviour. Rape is very different to passionate attraction, rough sex, casual pick ups etc etc. As long as the majority of women still expect men to make the first move, then we are given them the agency to suggest a sexual encounter, and, given the current climate, making them totally responsible when things go wrong and when communication is not clear, or misinterpreted or feelings get hurt etc etc. I have not been blind all my life and have observed women doing everything within their power to attract men and sexual advances, and then sometimes finding themselves in situations they don’t want. Yes, men need to be aware that a situation might not be exactly as they originally perceived it, but women also need to wake up and be very clear about what they want and whether that is actually on the table. And also to stop defining themselves by whether or not they are desirable.

    • peopleareweird

      No, going somewhere private with a man doesn´t mean you are willing to have sex. Simply, you can get to know each other, or are you one of those people that think women are only masturbatory objects and can not hold a conversation? Even if you wanted to do something sexual, why do men always try to get more and more? Is it all or nothing in sex?
      Also, there is nothing wrong with heterosexual women wanting to attract men. We could argue that what is considered an attractive women in this society is wrong and exagerated, but wanting to attract the opposite sex is natural (for heterosexuals). Why are men never critizised for that?

      • lk

        Why arent we asking: Why did Aziz assume the date would lead to sex?

        Maybe she wanted to be alone with him because she didnt want the date to end, maybe she wanted to talk to him or maybe she just wanted to kiss?

        “No, going somewhere private with a man doesn´t mean you are willing to have sex.” I am sick to death of the claim that if a woman is alone with a man, she must know he wants sex.

        I also don’t think there is anything wrong per se with a woman wanting a man that she is interested in to find her attractive…but men seem to think that finding a woman attractive=this women owes me sex right now!!!

  • Maureen

    “We need to change our understanding of sex and courtship rituals; stop treating men as mindless animals, driven by uncontrollable sexual urges; stop normalizing the idea that ‘consent’ is as simple as agreeing or acquiescing.”

    But that’s exactly what you do in this article, by describing Ansari as normal and stating there was no rape. Silence is not consent. Going limp is not consent. Coercion is not consent.

    Sex without consent is rape.

    Aziz Ansari is a rapist and, indeed, the worst kind of man. And no matter how common rapists are, their behavior will never be “normal.”

    • Meghan Murphy

      They didn’t have sex. And saying his behaviour doesn’t normalize it. Watching pornography is ‘normal’, yet I argue against it constantly. What is ‘normal’ under patriarchy is not good.

      • Maureen

        They had sex, they didn’t have intercourse. And regardless you say she has “technically” consented.

        Common, prevalent, pervasive, systemic, rampant, ubiquitous: I wold accept any of these words, but not “normal.”

        • Meghan Murphy

          “Normal” means “usual,” “regular,” “common,” “typical”… This is indeed the correct word to use.

          • Maureen

            Also we often speak as feminists of “normalizing” male violence. I don’t know what could normalize it more than calling it normal.

          • Meghan Murphy

            You are conflating ‘normal’ with ‘acceptable,’ which is clearly not what I am arguing.

    • Meghan Murphy

      I don’t agree that Ansari is a rapist. I think it’s wholly possible to talk about men’s behaviour critically without framing them as criminal, unnecessarily.

  • peopleareweird

    The first time a kissed a boy I still had a lifetime of Disney fairytales adoctrination in my mind. I thought a kiss was something special, a prove of love. So I was incredibly happy and told my mother I started to date someone. My older sister laughed and told me it was just a hookup. My mother grounded me for several months. I have always wondered why my opinion about kisses didn´t matter. I also wondered why my mother insisted so much in me not getting fat, putting a bit of make up and flattering clothes, heels and waxing when she didn´t want me to do anything with boys.

  • susannunes

    Caitlin Flanagan. Enough said.

  • Meghan Murphy


  • Meghan Murphy

    Even if the story were written to vilify him, do you not think this behaviour is worth discussing?

    • Hekate Jayne

      We are not allowed to discuss the males in a less than stellar light, dontchaknow.

      I don’t know how discussion of male behavior is vilifying. I mean, are you ruining his career or sending him to prison? Did you demand that all of the villagers descend on him with pitchforks and torches?

      When a male does something shitty, hurtful, or even violence up to murdering a woman, it is stunning to see so many running to the defense of the male at breakneck speed with a plethora of excuses. Even when it is just a discussion.

      • Kathleen Lowrey

        Maybe when a woman’s plain description of a man’s dating behaviour can “destroy his reputation” we are living in the fiery hellscape of feminazi armageddon.

        Or, *possibly*, that man’s behaviour on dates is bad. Take a look out the window and check for hails of brimstone and burning bras to determine which scenario applies.

        • MotherBear84

          Nope. No brimstone nor bras. It’s actually pretty feckin’ cold out. Pretty far from “feminazi Armageddon”. 😀

          Hahahaha my stupid spellcheck tried to change that to “femininity Armageddon”! Which is what I feel like I live in!

  • GerryJCapone

    I’ve often heard men complain about women MANAGING them. That such behavior implied a lack of trust. That it reduced them to some generic male. That it implied that they were inexperienced… that they could be easily fooled by such obvious “manipulation.” That “love” didn’t stand a chance under such routine caution and dissimulation. And that it was, in short, a total turn-off.

    Which proves to me that these oh-so-sensitive men don’t have a clue about themselves or about men-as-men. What men do to women somehow isn’t suppose to register. These romantic souls enjoy all the prerogatives of men, including male bonding, and yet also get to experience themselves as unique, especially in the eyes of women. They are taken aback by women’s managing techniques, and yet are very quick to resort to all the seductive tools in the male arsenal. To the point of outright coercion, to the point of rape, in a rape culture which is totally lost on them.

  • lk

    Damn, Meghan is starting off 2018 on fire! Your analysis is dead on.

    I have no interest in seeing Aziz fired or anything like that or people refusing to work with him.(and I know people are going to look at this story as being part of the “witchhunt” of men). A story like this coming out is really important because it is about the larger culture where women are just things to get sex from-either through trickery, coercion, manipulation, relentless pressure, abuse or actual rape/harassment.

    I would love for a story like this to really make men and boys reflect (and change!) on how they interact with women and how their behaviors (though not illegal or as awful as physical rape) are part of the problem.

    “I mean, goodness, what woman wouldn’t feel hurt at learning their date has no interest in them as a person?”
    I don’t think men get what it is like to have someone make you feel like you have no value or worth outside of having holes that they can put their dicks in.

    It’s deeply hurtful and makes you feel worthless.Not to mention the tremendous feelings of guilt that you carry with you long after the interaction for doing something you really did not want to do.

    When you are alone with a woman, your only thoughts/actions should not be:How can I get her to suck my dick/fuck me?

  • Virginia Howard

    I’m reading “How to be a Tudor” by historian Ruth Goodman, and in it there’s a description of that era’s characterization of male and female sexuality, inspired by ancient Greek texts. Assumptions which could just as easily apply to today’s porn culture: women belong to the cold, wet, phlegmatic humor and therefore are in constant need of the “hot essence of a man”, no matter what she might say or do that might indicate otherwise. It’s as though we’re still acting on late-medieval assumptions about men and women.

    • Heather Hewitt

      History has much to teach us.

  • calabasa

    So much handmaiden. “In my day…”

  • esuth

    I feel like the elephant in the room of all these stories is the copious amounts of violent porn these guys are watching. So liberal sex-pozzie feminists trained to think porn is good and normal remain shocked by this kind of behavior. They remind me of the family members of addicts who don’t understand why their sweet and loving family member is hurting everyone who loves him. I agree with you Meghan, Ansari isn’t an evil guy. If I had to bet I’d say that like most men he’s a porn addict, and doesn’t care who he hurts to get his fix.

  • Hekate Jayne

    Corvid. Did you respond?

    I am just gobsmacked. What does a fucking male expect to get as a response????

    I was on a date with a male and he told me that “you need a man to beat you”. I said that I had to go to the rest room, and I never returned to the table.

    Dudes love violence. Hurting us gives them a boner. It does not matter to them if we say NO, or stop, or even if we stop breathing. They aren’t there for the sex. They are there for the violence.

    • corvid

      Thanks. See, he said it in such a casual way kind of like he meant it as a (fucked-up) compliment. Because women in porn “like” being smacked around so naturally that’s a sexy thing to say?!? In retrospect I’m glad he put that out there, surely the second I’d get behind closed doors with this guy he’d Ghomeshi me. To my own surprise I wasn’t ready with a response so I kind of just gave a weird look and walked away.

      They sure do love that violence. Porn is basically an open competition to see who can be the worst to women… who has the weirdest, most violent kink… it’s a sexual arms race, and in it women are only ever props to their bizarre posturing. Freaks.

  • Hekate Jayne

    You could have saved us all some time by condensing your post into the 3 words that you are actually saying. Which is “gold digging whore”.

    Don’t be a dreadful fucking bore in addition to being an ignorant asshole.

    We are cudgeling the innocent menz? Wrong path, indeed.

  • Clare De Mayo

    I’m in agreement. The more we make women out to be incapable of making intelligent decisions the more fuel we give to the idea of women being incapable of being responsible and wielding power in the real world

  • Hanakai

    She told him no. She told him she was uncomfortable. She kept moving his hand away when he was sticking his fingers in her vagina.

    This was more than a bad date. A date is when you hang out and spend time with another to get to know them. She wanted a date. He just wanted to score, to get laid, to put another notch on his dick and he kept pressuring and pressuring and pawing at her until she froze. He took what was not freely given.

  • calabasa

    This is a rare case of both agreeing and disagreeing.

    I believe there was quite a lot of manipulation and coercion in Grace’s account. There are also rumors of Ansari preying on other young fans, hustling them back to his hotel room and leaping on them with aggressive sex (that have been going around for years). He always targets much, much younger fans who look up to him and are therefore impressionable–a la James Franco; just because Ansari’s taste skews slightly older than Franco’s doesn’t mean there’s not this power imbalance. He’s clearly after *just sex*–that is, he wishes to sexually use–these young fans who actually like him and think they have a chance with him. Here is a Tweet about him following a young woman into a bathroom stall and forcing his way into the stall:

    Predatory men, whether their MO is aggressive coercion or actual rape, know what they are doing. This is not about “gray areas.” With predators there’s no gray areas, just how much they can get away with.

    The remarkable degree of learned helplessness exhibited by the young woman in this scenario is more interesting than Ansari’s behavior. Why was she so incapable of standing up for herself and escaping? It can be very shocking when a person who had been treating you well suddenly displays a marked change of behavior–and there’s the fact that she liked him; she kept wanting him to “go back to normal,” most likely. She didn’t want to upset or alienate him, and most likely (as is often the case when a person begins to display aggressive behavior) didn’t want to admit to herself it was happening. I believe her when she says she felt pressured, as well–I have felt that pressure, and had sex I didn’t want, out of fear. No, I didn’t regret it because the guy later blew me off (although yes, that would make me regret it, too, and guys should quit behaving so callously); I regret it because I didn’t *want* to, and so I felt ashamed.

    Some situations in which I’ve had sex I regret have been quite obviously scenarios of rape, such as a strange man climbing into bed with me when I was bedridden, sick and alone in a foreign country; I “had sex with him” so he would not forcibly rape me (and saved myself the trauma of a forcible rape I couldn’t afford at that time, but hated myself for it and carried that shame–for going along with it–for a long time). I’ve had sex when I was really drunk and someone I felt zero attraction to asked to “crash on my floor” because he was too drunk to drive and needed a place to crash, and he crawled into bed with me; again, frightened not to, might as well let him, also I was too drunk to comprehend what was happening and say no to him.

    However, I’ve also had sex–after saying “no” several times, and getting scared by a guy looming over me on my couch–but then, when I agreed, he stopped looming; I could have, at that point, kicked him out (and wish I had, as he went on to terribly abuse me after that in our brief, disastrous, “relationship,” which was really just grooming for sexual abuse). Why didn’t I kick him out? I was scared, yes, but once he let me up I could have–why didn’t I? And why was I so helpless during our relationship, when he became abusive, and began trying to push my boundaries, sexually, force things on me, choke me, smack me, and pull my hair? Force me to do things for him? Why was it so hard for me to say no, and to get away from him?

    A couple of things were happening. I have a history of rape and sexual abuse that goes back to childhood, and he caught me in a vulnerable period; it had been stirred up by research for a book, I was having nightmares again, I’d decided the answer was that all I needed to do was “forgive men” and date again. My history of sexual abuse made me vulnerable. I had a hard time even registering the abuse, and when I did, saying no, and when I did say no, pushing him off, fighting him off and getting away; he picked me because of this state of learned helplessness and my easy dissociation, and how I would not call him on it–he picked me because things about me made me a “good victim.”

    There was another side though. He also love bombed me, in the beginning, using sophisticated techniques of mirroring to get me to believe in him; he was supportive about my past, really supportive, knowledgeable, and kind; and oh yes–feminist! He was a feminist ally, according to him–of course.

    So, when the abuse began, I kept wanting him to go back to normal–to the loving, kind man he had been (apart from the terrible portent of his pressuring me into sex on our first date). Sometimes he would go back to normal, and I’d rationalize his bad behavior. This is the abuse cycle and the abuser’s dynamic.

    Something similar happened during Grace and Aziz Ansari’s date. His charm and kindness evaporated the moment they re-entered the apartment and he became an altogether different sort of man–incredibly pushy, in a porn-specific way (gagging her with his fingers). Uninterested in her as a person, sexually abusive. She maybe was *not* against sex with him, she was against sex with him when he was acting like *that*–there’s a difference. She would tell him to chill, he’d back off and act like he’d be okay again, then he’d start up again. She told him, “I don’t want to feel forced,” and then sat down on the floor to distance herself from him a bit–not to sit next to him–and then turned around and he had his dick in her face, and she “felt pressured” (which again, I understand). He put her hand on his penis; she took it away; he did it *more.* He intentionally ignored her cues, and he noticed her hesitation–that she felt uncomfortable, confused, and didn’t know what to do–and he sought to exploit this intentionally. Remember the fantastic article, “The Myth of the Male Bumbler?” That’s just it: it’s a myth.

    I think the little dynamic he created with this woman was an abusive one. She literally kept inching away from him and he kept following and jamming his fingers in her mouth. He took advantage of the fact that it didn’t occur to her earlier to leave to continue to accost her in this fashion (instead of, you know, chilling as instructed, and chatting about stuff, and being friendly and decent).

    If he’d worn her down and she’d said yes to sex, would it have been coerced? I think so. How many of us have had sex like this in situations like this we don’t know how to get out of, because we’re confused or feel manipulated, or simply because we’re frightened of the repercussions of a “no”? A “no” can lead to rape, can lead to violence. It’s scary to contemplate saying “no” to someone who is being really pushy–*especially* if you have not developed any skills around us. The one thing Caitlin Flanagan got right is that our entire generation (millennials and younger) has been let down in this regard. We never did learn to stand up for ourselves to men, that men would try to take advantage of us, that sex does not equal love; we have also been groomed to be sexual objects for men, in the youngest generation more than any generation before, because of the rise of online pornography. The male-pleasing, sex-positive, hookup culture has been so immensely damaging to women. Right as men are becoming more aggressive than ever because of it, we women are losing vital skills of self-protection. Porn culture is creating a world of well-armed hunters and sitting ducks.

    So, the oral sex was coerced, as well. And his sexual pestering was harassment, when she clearly indicated to him to back off.

    Are there “normal” guys who act like this? Well, when “normal” means “porn sick, entitled, and misogynistic,” yes.

    It’s wrong for him to date young fans, especially just to use sexually; he should find a woman who’s more a match–not some fangirl–who also wants a casual sexual relationship, and try to, I dunno…be a good lover? But he won’t, because he likes this fucked up power dynamic.

    I don’t believe he’s “normal” because I don’t believe, in spite of my experiences, that *most* guys are predatory, and I think he was being predatory. Just because he didn’t rape her doesn’t mean he wasn’t.

    Two “friends” of mine once invited me to have dinner and drinks with them. One of them kept refilling my drink. They didn’t hit on me once–we all chatted for hours–and when I stood up to leave, I felt dizzy, and lay down. One of them immediately pounced on me, took off my panties (I had on a dress), and pulled out his dick, while the other pulled up a chair to watch. I managed to say “no no no,” and he got off me, zipped up, and helped me to my feet. The two guys then walked me home.

    Does that mean no sexual assault happened? Are they great guys? Was it chivalrous for them to chaperone me? Or is it more that they deliberately got me drunk (they continued to refill my glass with a strong spirit that I can’t tolerate well) in the hopes of getting me *drunk enough* that I’d let them (that I’d not say no)? Is that not abuse? Is that perhaps even rape?

    So, Ansari’s MO is to badger and coerce until he gets sex. Is this not abusive? That he stopped when she finally got her wits together doesn’t mean he’s not predatory, or that it’s not abusive–he’s just not willing to go that far, to stray into the territory of force. That’s not part of his particular MO.

    I don’t think he IS like most good, decent guys. People read nonverbal cues all the time, people know the difference between enthusiasm and discomfort. I believe he knew what he was doing, and I also believe it’s not the first time he’s done it.

    I agree, though, that we need a conversation about how “normal” male sexual behavior, if it includes stuff like this, is often predatory. There’s not a dividing line between forcible rape and normal heterosexual intercourse; forcible rape is just the logical outcome of the way that both men and women are conditioned to view heterosexual sex, with men as aggressor, and women as object of their aggression.

    I also agree that we need to talk about how even had this been seduction rather than aggressive coercion, seducing someone who likes you just to use them sexually is also wrong. We need to talk about morality within sexuality. And, if men want women to want sex with them, scenarios like this one should *not* seem normal. Not only was it utterly dehumanizing, but it was also frightening, alienating, and a giant turn-off. I can’t think of anything less sexy than some guy demanding, “Where do you want me to fuck you?” While jamming his fingers inside my mouth. Men need to learn what women like sexually, if they want us to have sex with them.

    What makes this DOUBLY wrong for Aziz Ansari is his performative allyship. His entire brand is about being “woke” and on the side of women. He literally wrote the book on romance for our generation. And this is how he acts?

    Some links:

    • Yisheng Qingwa

      I hope you never spoke to those two pieces of shit again. That is horrifying.

      • calabasa

        No, as a matter of fact, I didn’t–wait that’s not entirely true. On the eve of leaving the country I ran into one of them again at a music festival. I was with a large group of people, some of them former students, so I did not say anything.

        The friend who had been pouring me drinks was my first friend in that town and country. We used to go biking together. He never hit on me, and I assumed he wasn’t interested (or knew I wasn’t, and was okay with that). The other guy was part of a larger circle of friends–young artists in the town. I didn’t like him at all (when drunk, he’d make kissy faces at the women; he was gross). Because my one friend invited me, I assumed I was safe, that he had my best interests at heart. I also kept an eye on the other guy and saw that he was not drinking, which made me relax (I rather naively thought he was only inappropriate when drinking. It never occurred to me he’d stay sober while the friend I trusted got me drunk so he could assault me). Honestly, the depth of male brutality is something I should have known a long time ago but which it took ages to finally be revealed to me.

        My guess now is that the creepy guy pressured my friend to invite me. They had a house which the friend group rented, to display art exhibits and show weekly movies and have dinner parties–it was literally just a party house. They invited me there, and cooked dinner for me. They were super nice and showed me the garden. Because of the presence of the friend who had never hit on me, I thought I was safe and honestly thought he just wanted to hang out. Neither of them were hitting on me either, including the creepy guy. IN retrospect this was to lull me into a sense of safety.

        It was the creepy guy who jumped on me when I lay down, and my friend who pulled up a chair to watch.

        Had I been a little drunker, Mr. Creepy would have “had sex” with me, with my friend watching (who knows what his plan was–I can’t imagine he’d join in, but he was asshole enough to lure me there, continuously refill my drink, and to pull up a chair while his friend assaulted me, so who knows). They would have framed this as “sex” and pretend they thought there was nothing wrong.

        As it was, Mr. Creepy tried to perform oral sex (I pushed his head away) and tried to make me suck on his penis all in a very brief span of time–I lay down and closed my eyes, he pounced, he began kissing me, then he had my panties off in the blink of an eye and was pawing at me, he tried to go down on me and I stopped him, he pulled his penis out, stood next to the couch, and grabbed my head–this was all in the span of about two minutes. I was *really* drunk (I can’t tolerate mescal very well), and it took me that long to get oriented. When I said no I started to cry.

        Maybe that’s what saved me, who knows. He immediately hopped off, zipped up his pants, handed me my underwear, and then the guys walked me home.

        I was *so* drunk I ended up puking much of the rest of the night. I didn’t realize, as my friend was refilling my glass, how drunk I was getting (and often it doesn’t hit you while you’re sitting). They pretty much had to walk me home. If they had let me go home in that town alone at that time of night in that condition, they *knew* they’d be in trouble for whatever happened to me, since they got me so drunk.

        Who knows, maybe they were being nice. *shrugs*

        The friend who got me drunk–my actual friend–was himself very drunk. I guess he needed to drink too, to go through with whatever their little plan was. The other guy was not drunk.

        When I told people about it later, while my roommates agreed it had been abusive, a supposed friend and colleague (who later backstabbed me anyway–one of the top lackeys for our tyrannical boss who had it in for me, mainly because I was trying to help the students; I stood up to her and got her ousted, though, in the end, but not before I quit, and now *this* backstabbing “friend” is in charge) said “Oh well at least they walked you home,” and framed it as them being “nice.” The way she decided to see it is the way some people see Aziz Ansari in this story, although this case is considerably different, obviously–there was no date, no consensual activity, and the whole thing was a set-up from the beginning; but she saw it as “a little kinky action gone wrong,” or something. This is a woman I think has not suffered much in the way of sexual assault; she was not the person Mr. Creepy asked his friend to lure for him. She later began dating my former friend despite knowing this story. Gross.

        I absented myself from that entire friend group, because these two guys were a core part of it, and were always around. I could no longer see any of the people I really liked. Whenever I ran into them in town they’d ask why I didn’t come to the art house anymore.

        I never outed those guys, but I saw the other guy shortly after he did it and he waved to me like an excited schoolboy (I ignored him). I saw him a long time again after that, and he walked past me with an angry look on his face. I can only think it got back to him that I had told people what they did was assault. It was. I’m not sure what he was thinking, how it could possibly be courtship, or if he was just angry I’d told on him (he was kind of dumb, honestly…I told one of my roommates his eyes lit up and he gave me a huge wave when I saw in the park shortly after, and she had a good chuckle and said, “Idiota”).

        It wasn’t the most traumatic thing I’ve experienced, but I felt extremely betrayed by my friend, and I lost my friend group, which isolated me, and that sucked. The horrible trauma I went through recently was made worse by social isolation and especially by my rapist’s constant presence in the community…you get victimized all over again.

        I ran into the friend who had betrayed me at that music festival. He seemed not to know what to do or say, and was very quiet. Obviously I couldn’t tell the people I was with what happened.

        He went around giving drinks to everyone in the group, but he skipped me as if I weren’t there (I guess he decided that’s how he’d deal with it). I spoke up and asked him for a drink. He looked surprised and rushed to my side to pour it for me personally.

        So, I guess that was a sort of forgiveness of him, and his sort of apology to me.

        But yes, I did make it absolutely clear how upsetting I found their behavior by dropping entirely out of that social circle and not talking to either of them again.

  • Meghan Murphy

    This is very clearly not the way I am using it. I explain my argument in detail, and I’m not sure how you could possibly interpret me to mean I believe it’s ‘natural’ or ‘healthy.’ Those aren’t words I used and that isn’t the argument I made. It seems you are going out of your way to pretend I argued something I did not…

    Re: your comment — I will check the spam folder and release it if it is there!

    • Maureen

      I am explaining why I object to the word specifically.

      But the connotations do flow into your characterization of Ansari as “not bad,” a “not particularly dangerous” specimen of maleness. As if he is a robot void of responsibility, having been programmed by an abstract “socialization” process he has no active participation in.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Accusing me of being a rape apologist is rich.

    • Maureen

      Saying “consent” can exist in a context that is pressured, coerced, violated, and disrespected is rape apologism.

      • Meghan Murphy

        You are completely misrepresenting my argument and every single argument I’ve ever made about ‘consent’ on this website and beyond.

  • Cassandra

    You are a perfect example of male assholery.

  • lk

    Oh my god. I’m really shocked that he would say that. Like, what did he think you were gonna say…”yes, I love being smacked around, lets go on a date!”

    He really should have stopped at you look nice. I guess I’ll give him credit for just being honest about being a creep right from the get go.

    I guess this is the new normal (unfortunately). A few months ago, Men’s Health (or some similar magazine), had an article that was basically about how its okay to ask for anal sex on the 1st date cuz its so common. I was like, nope!!

    Unsurprising, it was only about men giving anal not receiving it.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Well, it IS acceptable in society. It is encouraged. It is totally normal and normalized. This is also the argument I make in the piece and part of the reason why I intentionally used the word ‘normal’.

  • calabasa

    I just want to add:

    If this were really “an accident,” or “Mixed Signals™,” Aziz Ansari could have cemented his feminist creds by owning up to his inappropriate behavior, not playing the “male bumbler”–owning up to her account being true–and he could have not only apologized but gotten the ball rolling on a national conversation about the problematic nature of aggressive male sexuality, and how the whole hetero paradigm needs retooling; honestly, if he were *really* media savvy and wanted to turn himself into a fucking hero, he would have owned up to his distasteful behavior, apologized for it sincerely, talked about it honestly, and asked women to tell him and all men how they can do better. That would have been a fucking media *coup.*

    Instead, he went the predictable route of “deny, deny, deny, sorry if she felt that way, I really thought everything was fine.”

    Aziz Ansari is a smart man, and you cannot convince me that his big head stops working when the little one is engaged.

    To me, his denial speaks volumes about his guilt (people don’t act this way and think it’s okay, and honestly anyone who thinks he wasn’t, at the very least, being a giant creep is just nuts).

    I think he probably does this sort of thing regularly; there are “insider” type jokes about him being a perv, his stand-up is pervy, etc.–that kind of “ironic sexism” thing, meta commentary, that Louis CK did. Do we also remember him *refusing* to speak about the allegations against Louis CK immediately after proclaiming his feminist credentials? Refusing to condemn his friend for behaving immorally–as simple as that?

    I have good reason to distrust any man too loud about being a feminist ally, who uses it as branding, as marketing, and as some form of cover (the trifecta)– and I believe Meghan’s said it’s best to judge a man’s character by his actions, and not his words.

    So what are his actions saying now?

  • M. Zoidberg

    >>”And I’ve lived through the decades of women trying to be just as good as men at having self-involved, unemotional sex. I don’t buy it. I don’t see why or how equality should mean women learn to be just as callous as men.

    College… A guy I met in class set me up with his friend. The friend was this big guy, kind of schluby, but okay on the eyes. Anyway, he was 26 years against my 17.

    We chatted about mutual interests on ICQ (yes, waaay back then) and soon after, he moved the conversation to what would become his favourite subject: his boner (for me!) It was always introduced awkwardly too:

    Me: “Have you read the Hellsing manga? So-an-so has a copy of the whole series?”
    Him: “No, but I know you haven’t seen my dick today.”
    Me: “The ink work is top-notch! But the content is a bit crude.”
    Him: “I could get crude with you, and you could be on top.”

    So, yeah.

    Couldn’t be seen as sexually repressed, though. So, I let him talk about his dick, and sex, and porn, and talking about our mutual interests faded.

    Now, I don’t know how he convinced me, but at college, not long after the ICQ “dick-chats,” he started taking me to the stairwell to get blowies. Whatever, I didn’t complain because I knew that the worst thing I could be was that girl who cared about sex. Cared if I got no pleasure from being face-fucked and groped. Cared if he told my friends. Cared if he talked about other girls in front of me. Cared if he nicknamed me “Miss Viagra.” Cared when my friends heard the nickname too. Wailing in misery in the shower at how quickly normal just slipped away in a matter of weeks.

    That relationship didn’t last the semester, thank fucking God. But I didn’t learn until years later that I SHOULD care that I get something out of my relationship with a man. And sex — I should care that I’m getting something out of that too!

    But there’s no education that teaches girls and women that the callousness with which many men approach sex and relationships, is not normal. And that women should embrace their feelings, not push them way down into a place of apathy.

  • Meghan Murphy

    A society free from oppression and male dominance, duh.

  • Meghan Murphy

    While I don’t necessarily personally relate to all that you say here, I find your questions, experience, and perspective valuable and interesting. Thanks for sharing.

    My perspective, after having dated, slept with, and been in long term relationships with a lot of men (as well as having lots of male friends) is that the best way to proceed, with regard to men, is to simply not invest too much in our intimate relationships with them… I love my male friends, but that’s because I relate to them as friends, not as primary, intimate partners.

    I don’t think, in general, it’s a good idea or necessary to live with men or marry them. I *do* find men attractive, so despite my best efforts, I end up dating them or hooking up with them, but I think that the fact I don’t want to partner with them in a conventional sense (i.e. through marriage, raising children with them etc) means I am in a position to avoid centering my life around those relationships, and it’s easier for me to get what I want out of those relationships.

    Women give up so much for men. We really need to stop doing that. It’s not worth it…

    • Clare De Mayo

      Unfortunately, women will often betray each other in this regard, letting their friends down because their male partner comes first, excluding single female friends from social events once they themselves are in a couple, not being there for their female friends when they need them as they direct all their emotional energy towards their partner. I think you are absolutely right, until women stop centering their lives around men, they will vulnerable to be taken advantage of by men, taken for granted, and it will continually undermine feminist objectives.

      • Meghan Murphy


  • Meghan Murphy

    I’ve had many experiences like the one detailed in this story with non-celebrity men.

    • oneclickboedicea

      This is sexual harrassment. If you go on a date its with a view to seeing whether youre compatible. Too many men see and treat women as whores (in their minds). Just for sex. Did he announce this at the beginning of the date? No he didnt, and yet the conversation is all about how we manage male deceit. How about we just call them sexial harrassers, just in a restaurNt rather than in a workplace.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “Women need a lot more to climax, and thus I don’t buy that most women get as much out of one night stands and ‘uninvolved sex’ as men do. They are just pretending, because porn indoctrinated them into believing if they aren’t orgasming as soon as the penis is in, they are defective or some such gaslighting nonsense.”


    Women fool themselves into thinking they can ‘have sex like men’, but they actually can’t. I did this when I was younger and boy oh boy did I have a lot of boring, unsatisfying sex! I pretended I was enjoying myself because I thought I was supposed to be.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Thanks Jhana!

  • Meghan Murphy

    Thanks Hekate

  • Meghan Murphy

    Totally. She may well have been totally open to having sex with him but was then upset at being treated in a way that made her feel dehumanized and then being poked and prodded and pestered…

  • Meghan Murphy

    Thanks Emine!

  • Meghan Murphy

    I think we DEFINITELY need to be having a conversation about older men predating on much younger women. I have zero respect for 30 something men who go after 20 year old women. It’s not ok.

    • Hanakai

      Even worse are the older men who prey on naive teenagers. In the USA, most teen pregnancies result from sex with men over 20.

      One-third of the fathers of babies of mothers ages 15-19, and 29% of babies born to mothers under age 15, were age 25 or older.

      The media complains about teen mothers, but maybe the complaints, and criminal charges, need to be lodged against males who are fucking and impregnating teen-aged children.

    • ivonne

      he didn’t go after her at all–she chased after him at an after emmy party while on a date with another guy..He is the victim not her. She is merely looking for her 15 minutes of fame.

    • Clare De Mayo

      Age gaps in both directions are much more common in Europe (eg Macron). Unfortunately in the US and Australia (my country) it is very much one way (older man), and seems to be about a trophy child wife/girlfriend who is compliant and controllable, as well as very attractive

  • Meghan Murphy

    Also, I’m sorry but going back to a man’s apartment after dinner or drinks does not mean consenting to sex. Sometimes the bar closes and you want to keep chatting. It’s quieter, cheaper, and you can play your own music. I’ve gone back to plenty of dudes apartments after drinks or a date and it’s not because we all are assuming sex is happening. God, people have such black and white views of sex, dating and relationships it’s weird. Women should be able to go to a man’s apartment without being expected to have sex with him, sheesh.

  • Meghan Murphy

    True! I should have said ‘intercourse’ or ‘penetrative sex.’

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yeah, I think on TV ‘come up for a coffee’ means ‘have sex,’ but it real life, having a drink at a man’s apartment is pretty common and does not necessarily assume sex.

    • Clare De Mayo

      maybe, if you know them well. But going to a private place with a man within a romantic context of a date certainly opens up the possibility for sex. If you absolutely don’t want to have sex, you say goodnight at the bar or restaurant, or outside your house, or if you want to talk you do that somewhere public, until you really know the person and can trust the situation.

      • Meghan Murphy

        I guess I don’t date men I don’t know, so maybe that’s the difference? idk

  • Jesse McAllister

    Then don’t go home with the guy. It sends the wrong message.

  • lk

    I think its cool that you approached him (although he turned out to be a creep). I am a complete chicken about letting a guy know I’m attracted to him.

    “There’s a certain level of denial involved when you’ve liked a guy for long enough.”
    I think that denial can be really dangerous (especially once you are actually involved with a person) because we cling to all the good things/how we feel about a guy and ignore or explain away his sexist and/or abusive behavior. And I think women have become masters at denying the red flags we often see from males early on.

  • lk

    I didn’t say anything about her being pure or about him being evil.

  • lk

    “Treating other people as if they are just a means to an end is psychopathic to a certain degree. Other people don’t exist to be your narcissistic supply.”

    Yes, I don’t think women adopting male ideas about sexuality is a good thing.

    Dehumanizing males does nothing but contribute to the idea that people are things to use.

    There seems to be this idea that if women had sex like men everything would be okay….I really don’t understand how women using men for sex is going to make everything okay.

    I don’t want to use men for sex and I don’t want to be used for sex.

  • Emily

    Because our mothers slap us when we don’t respond politely to weird strangers. Because our teachers give us detention for yelling, “shut up!” at our sexual harassers in middle and high school. Because our friends call us rude when we don’t want to smile and flirt with the middle-aged men who bought us drinks because “i like the way you dance.” (I was barely 21 for that one.)

    Because women are severely punished for not playing nice.

  • Alienigena

    “What I Just Don’t Get is WHY do WOMEN not SLAP THE CRAP out of the guy and YELL: “GET YOUR HANDS OFF ME, I DON’T WANT TO, AND LEAVE?!” Or “GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY TIT!”.”

    As a 12 year old who a fifty plus year old man asked for a kiss once, I didn’t object. My mother raised me to be polite towards people, especially towards men, to the point of pathology I think. As a 15 year old who was studying at a downtown public library on a Sunday I answered the questions of an older man (looked like someone of no fixed address) with a younger male companion (who was completely silent but complicit), smiled when he said I was pretty, but did not believe him. I was taught not to be rude to someone just because they were older, suffered from dementia, had a disability, were homeless. I would even ‘suffer’ people, like this man, who made me uncomfortable. I became increasingly uncomfortable with the conversation but didn’t say anything. The man and his companion left at some point but returned an hour or so later. This time I didn’t engage and tried to focus on my work, he threatened to pick up the heavy library table and throw it. He tried to pressure me into leaving with him in his truck. I thought the younger man being young would come to my aid because he must remember what it felt like to be a teenager and vulnerable. Eventually the man left, maybe someone else in the library complained. I spent my time at the bus stop nervously looking around for the man.

    Having a verbally and sometimes physically abusive father whom my mother coached me to appease or avoid didn’t pre-dispose me to stand up for myself. The librarian in the second example, when I looked their way, just looked annoyed with me for not stopping the situation which I thought I was doing by not engaging with man when he returned. On the bus on my way home I remember seeing a guy from my school on the bus who seemed to be looking at me with contempt. He must have been in the library as well. Did he think I should have stood up physically to two adult men? I really don’t know. As I say, the librarians didn’t really seem to care.

    My father would harangue me for an hour at a time as I came up the stairs from the basement after playing piano, watching tv or reading a book. I contemplated just pushing past him at times but I think I was afraid he would grab me and push me down the stairs and then claim I had tripped. A fall could have seriously injured me or killed me as the floor in the basement was concrete covered by some kind of hard tiling.

    At this point in my life I really have no time for men. I seriously don’t care what they feel and I don’t respond to catcalls or suggestions that I just smile. I don’t owe a total stranger who is male a conversation as I wait at the elevator, I am not the narcissistic supply of every random male I encounter. I have literally had men imply I should thank them for opening doors for me when I and said men pushed / pulled the door at the same moment in time. I don’t know if I simply live in a very retrograde province and city where the men are all angry Cro-magnon types or if the entire world is like this. Likely the latter and much worse. I have had men threaten to punch me while I was walking down the street. They have commented on my body as they walked behind me. Men don’t inspire sympathy, too many of them are too self-pitying, too self-involved, too self-righteous and too violent to inspire anything but contempt.

    If you want to know what my authentic reaction would be now to the man in the library now, I would definitely tell him to fuck off. But would that save me from further harassment or abuse or make the situation worse? I might be tempted to remove some of his internal organs like the ‘Josephine the Ripper’ I aspire to be.

    • MotherBear84

      Holy shit Alienigena. I am so sorry to hear that.

  • Hekate Jayne

    So you say that it is “time for women to stop being victims”.

    Is it ever going to be time for MALES TO STOP BEING PREDATORS?

    No need to answer. I already know.

  • Clare De Mayo

    I can’t agree more. Sounds like quite a fantasy expecting wonderful intimacy and great communication and great sex after a ‘rushed through’ dinner on a first date. Thing is, after the so-called sexual liberation of the 60’s, 70’s, we all threw out the rule book about dating and courtship. It was OK to have sex before marriage, it was OK to have casual sex, it was OK to date different people at the same time. Women had the pill, we could have sex for pleasure! (Watch some reruns of Sex and the City if you want to remember those times!) Trouble is, navigating that freedom is a hell of a lot harder than it seems, and actually harder than following a strict set of rules. It appears that a lot of women are not happy with where this has all ended up for them, they want to feel safe and valued, but they don’t know how to act within the current mores. Hence the popularity of books like ‘The Rules’, or ‘Men are from Mars, women are from Venus’. These ideas might be rubbish, but people flocked to them to have some way of navigating through the fog of human sexuality and courtship behaviour. But women do have to know what they want, and have some idea of the most likely way to get it, and not just bumble along and ‘hope’ that a guy will meet all their fantasies without them communicating them or setting personal boundaries.

    • Meghan Murphy

      FYI, if you look at literally all of Jesse’s comments, you’ll see he is a misogynist, libertarian, MRA. Just so ya know who you’re agreeing with…

  • thebewilderness

    D00D, she doesn’t give a shit about his effing career. Why should she. He is a predator and he did to this young woman what he has done dozens of times to dozens of young women.
    Are you really so thick that you force a woman’s hand on to your penis over and over again no matter how many times she takes it away and says no? Does she need to hit you with a brick for you to be able to read her body language?

  • lk

    I saw the title of an nytimes article that was something like Aziz Ansari is guilt of not being a mind reader.

    ROFL…nobody is asking guys to read minds.

    Nonverbal communication is a huge part of how humans interact with each other. I think its ridiculous for guys to act like they don’t pick up on nonverbal cues, I think a lot of them just ignore it.

    If you put a woman’s hand on your crotch and she starts touching it or pulls down your pants or starts undressing, she is telling you that she wants to continue being sexual with you.

    If you put a woman’s hand on your crotch and she pulls it away multiple times, she is telling you no.

    Figuring that out has nothing to do with mind reading! Listening to someone’s tone of voice, seeing how their bodies and face responds are not foreign concepts.

  • thebewilderness

    It is a warning to other women. That is why women write it on blogs and on bathroom walls. How is it possible that you do not know this? AA is a creep who refuses to take no for an answer. So say dozens of women. Spread the word! Stay safe.

  • thebewilderness

    I was seven when I found out men, especially police officers, are much more interested in the accusation than they are the perp.

  • Meghan Murphy

    FYI I wouldn’t normally approve comments from trolls like Jesse, but want commenters to be able to see what he’s about. He won’t last long here, of course.

  • Meghan Murphy

    lol seriously

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t know that anyone would argue she shouldn’t speak up for herself and many women have argued she has some responsibility in this situation. The point I was trying to make in this article was that socialization and gender roles have such an enormous impact on men AND women’s behaviour and that this needs to be part of the conversation when we’re talking about rape culture, sexual harassment etc. We, as a culture, need to change how we think about dating, sex, relationships — all of it.

    • Rek Seven

      “socialisation and gender roles have such an enormous impact on men AND women’s behaviour and that this needs to be part of the conversation”

      I agree with this 100% but that was not what you presented in the article. I recognise the fact that it’s primarily the behaviour of men in our society that is the problem but that doesn’t mean that women can’t share some responsibility without it instantly being called victim blaming.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Yes, it is what I argued in the article. You just want me to have made a different argument than I did.

  • Whatsittoyou?

    This the same bullshit hiding excuse you hear.. you are the asshole im sure. Your brothers, your neighbors, your friends, your bosses, your everyday asshole man, brother, thats who. Dont be so god damn naive. Again this just recycles the same patriarchal blame narrative on women. Stop it.

  • Whatsittoyou?

    Theres the threat of physical violence with men that is present, that is a huge undercurrent in these situations, beyond speaking “no”, enforcing it is a different matter. And men know this and abuse this. And i know, often women play coy because they dont want to see things go that way. So if your teaching affirmations, teach to-the-death self defense. One has to be listened to with actions and respected for ‘no’ to work, or able to make someone respect them with their boundaries. Men need to learn to be gentle and relinquishing of their male aggression and dominance.

  • Jan

    Come on, you can’t actually believe that men will ‘probably’ kill people for that… Don’t you think it’s a demeaning thing to say? “Men are just an inch away of being murderers, make them annoyed and they will probably kill you…”

    • corvid

      Are you sure feminists are the ones promoting this narrative? Seen any movies lately? Read the newspaper much?

    • lk

      Lots of men kill women for much less than refusing sex with them.

  • Hekate Jayne


  • Hekate Jayne

    The vast majority of males are ignorant parasites. And that includes financially.

  • Hanakai

    Dan Savage —- are you kidding? Do you mean the misogynistic homosexual self-styled sex advisor who has no credentials or education whatsoever to advise people on matters sexual or psychological, (His background is in acting) but who tells women they should act like homosexual men in matters of sex? Do you mean the manpig who bragged about licking doorknobs in order to spread disease and germs? Do you Dan Savage the champion of pornography, the one who sponsored the Hump Porn Film Festival??? Do you mean the man who finds women’s bodies disgusting, yet seeks to advise people on female sexuality? Do you the Dan Savage who advises women to take dick up the butt, to engage in all sorts of kink-sadism that men inflict on them, who thinks kink-sadism & torture are “good clean kink fun”? The Dan Savage who thinks love and intimacy are for squares and urges people to go to huge sex parties where anything that hurts women is fair play? The Dan Savage who refers to loving sex between man and woman as “heteronormative bullshit”? The man whose “sex-positivity” includes demanding that women agree to anal (despite numerous medical contraindications). Do you mean the arrogant male fuckhead who thinks the vagina is ugly and distasteful yet thinks he is qualified to advise women on their sex lives? The man who tells people to dump their partners if they gain weight?

    Obviously, you are a dude. Dudes love Dan Savage because Savage tells women that they must participate in whatever degrading or degenerate sex act that males desire and always be available to the male.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Considering a majority of women don’t orgasm during penetrative sex with men, yet most men continue to only have penetrative sex with women, I’d say you are wrong.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I’m not kidding, no. There is something wrong with a 34 year old man who wants to date a 20 year old woman. I think there is less of a problem when we are all older (I don’t, for example, see a problem with a 50 year old man dating a 40 year old woman), but there is little a 34 year old man has in common with a 20 year old woman. What could he possibly want with her? I’m not challenging YOUR interest in older men, per se, I’m challenging the older man pursuing the 20 year old woman. There is inevitably a power imbalance in there and a desire on his part to be dominant in the relationship.

    • theoryne

      That may be your experience – it’s not mine. “There is little a 34 year old man has in common with a 20 year old woman. What could he possibly want with her?” All kinds of things. In the relationships I know or have experienced, it was political, intellectual, spiritual, and/or musical interests, variously – and emotional compatibility and attraction. A twenty-year-old can be more mature and worldly than many 30-year-olds. People are unique and sweeping generalizations aren’t helpful.

      • Meghan Murphy

        If ‘sweeping generalizations’ aren’t helpful, how do we talk about the fact that it is incredibly common for older men to prey on much younger women? We are talking about patterns and the reasons behind those patterns. There are always exceptions to the rule, but we still have to talk about the patterns.

      • Cassandra

        It’s predatory.

  • Meghan Murphy

    The trend goes in the opposite direction. imo this is like asking, “What about women who pay for sex?” Also, clearly the power differential is different due to patriarchy. So, no, I’m really not at all concerned about older women dating younger men.

  • Meghan Murphy

    How have I told other women how they should live and what they should think?

    “Feminism is about freedom to live any way you want, any way that makes you happy, be it as a single person, married to a man, or married to a woman, or whatever feels the right way of life for you.”

    No… Feminism is about ending patriarchy and male violence against women.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Seriously. Who wants to have sex with someone who clearly is only interested in them because of their ‘fame’? That would be such a creepy feeling. Unless, of course, you were a soulless narcissist…

  • Meghan Murphy

    “Why was she waiting for this guy who was ignoring her needs to save her from himself? To comfort her after what he was doing? Why did she just assume he was going to give her a backrub? Aziz acted like an ass, but this is the part I found most odd. To me this reeks of more than just pressure from Aziz. She was looking for some kind of savior comfort here and comes across as incredibly passive and emotionally misguided – and this is a very dangerous thing to expect from a man you feel is victimizing you.”

    Yeah but victims of abuse do this all the time.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I should never enter a man’s apartment unless I plan to fuck him?

    • MotherBear84

      Shit, if we ever buy anything off an ad then, and show up at the apartment to collect it, we are ASKING FOR IT.

      FFS. The fact that a lot of men actually DO think exactly that…

  • Meghan Murphy

    “No intention of anything further”!?!? What on earth does that mean?? In general, we go on dates to get to know someone or see if we like them/want to pursue “something further.” That doesn’t mean you get to use our bodies as masturbatory tools. It is not exploitative to buy a woman a drink ffs. (Though I suspect you are unemployed and living in your mothers’ basement, leeching off of her and never going on *any* dates, never mind paying for a drink here and there.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Totally. I also honestly think some partnered women feel judged by single women who are single by choice (i.e. feminist). That is to say, my choice and feminist position against marriage makes them feel judged and so they choose to spend more time with other married couples than with single women. I think it challenges their worldview and choices in a way that perhaps makes them feel uncomfortable.

    But also, in general, I feel like a lot of couples choose to hang out with other couples. I have friend circles wherein I am the only single!

    Not all women/couples, of course… I have plenty of single female friends and friends I see who are in relationships with men… But there is that pattern, still.

  • thebewilderness

    1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.
    With a dollop of NAMALT for starters.

  • Meghan Murphy

    If women were free from patriarchy, the hope is they’d be able to live how they like, happily, but as it currently stands, feminism is about the fight to end patriarchy, not doing whatever you want. Making personal choices that make you happy is fine, but not necessarily political.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Facts aren’t reductive, brah. Most women aren’t orgasming during sex with men.

  • FierceMild

    I’m imaging that 5 second thing Men’s do in porn that is called “oral sex” but looks painful.

  • Paramdeep S

    I think everyone is missing the bigger factor here, that is the cultural piece of it. Men behave the way they do but culturally some behave a certain way either their lack of respect for women who are in dating scene and definitely if you decide to go to a man’s apartment the very first date – somehow the message taken is that you are ‘ready’ to take it the next level. I do not agree with the way Ansari ended the evening on his date, but I also agree with some of the other comments that women have to take some responsibility too…unless the names here are alias, another thing to notice is that everyone who is commenting is not of the minority ethnic background…we could debate this in so many different ways, I believe the key is to not to be quick to blame the other person and take the responsibility and learn from the experience…when as a women I put myself in such situation(s) I have learned a thing or two about myself…did i like the approach, would i put up with such approach…what is it that i really wanted at that ‘moment’ yes it all starts in a moment and escalates…

    • Wren

      Many women here are of minority status, but what does that matter? Because Ansari is a minority?? The conversation about men and their abusive tactics does not change with consideration of their ethnicity.

      • MotherBear84

        Does Paramdeep seriously not realise that so, so many of our name son here are NOT our real names?! Yup, in my real life, I’m Ms. Bear, first name Mother.

        And, as you say, how is our ethnic backgrounds or AA’s even the point?!

        • Tinfoil the Hat

          Yes, my name is tinfoil hattie! Weren’t my parents clever?

          • MotherBear84

            Was your childhood nickname Hattie or Tinnie? 😀

      • Hekate Jayne

        Is she saying that Brown males are rapier than white ones?

        That is what I am understanding.

        Edit: I should have addressed this to her, sorry, wren. But I do want to know is this is how you understand it, too, or if it is just me.

    • Americus91

      I don’t get why so many are claiming she was totally passive and didn’t take any responsibility. I wonder if everyone who says this read the entire story.

      She did USE HER WORDS “I don’t want to feel forced,” after she came out of the bathroom and had a chance to gather herself. He acknowledged it and they went to the couch to watch TV. That’s when he tapped her back and when she turned around he pointed to his dick.

      He’s 10 years her senior, and very famous, and he still felt entitled to push for more. He is not this stupid. I can’t believe he didn’t start to feel even a bit alarmed and gently tell her right then and there he was sorry and believed she was down for anything and “ready” He didn’t think to take responsibility for possible consequences of the situation, or he simply felt entitled, didn’t give a shit and didn’t believe there would be any consequences.

      Well he was wrong.

  • FierceMild

    Really we can just let the frat boys sum it up with their common campus chant:

    “No means yes, yes means anal!”

    That right there is why women’s ‘assertiveness’ tactics or outright “NO”s are les than effective. Because men are bigger, stronger, meaner, and the get away with hurting women.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I haven’t treated you like anything. I’m simply responding to your comments.

    “Making personal choices is not political? Are you serious? No personal choices for women were possible without political struggle. Everything is political. Especially where I come from.”

    I’ll offer an example: a woman ‘choosing’ to buy stilettos is not a feminist act, simply because she chose it. Feminism is about working towards an end to male supremacy. If you make choices that work towards that end, then those choices could possibly be called ‘feminist’.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Actually it’s not a me problem, because I am able to orgasm via penetrative sex. But MOST women do not. It is possible to see and discuss patterns even if those patterns don’t apply to us personally, without getting defensive.

    Sorry but most men aren’t good at sex. I say this from personal experience but also based on statistics, research, and what most women say. How many men have you had sex with, anyway? What is your expertise on the matter?

  • MotherBear84

    I am s ashamed that, growing up, I didn’t know this; or at least knew so astonishingly little.

    • Hekate Jayne

      I didn’t start learning about it until my late 30s.

      I was raised in purity culture. No feminism to be found anywhere in that!

      It doesn’t matter when you get here. Just that you do get here. We need you and are happy to have you.

    • Hanakai

      Do not be ashamed. Your elders failed you by failing to educate you. Your patriarchal culture failed you. Rather, congratulate yourself for coming to consciousness and knowledge.

      • Tinfoil the Hat

        “Your elders failed you by failing to educate you.”

        Yeah, because telling the truth about men, patriarchy, and rape culture has such widespread support and so many mainstream resources that her “elders” failed her.

  • Wren

    We don’t actually care what you think, monkey man.

  • MotherBear84

    CHOOSE to receive the wrong message. It’s deliberate.

  • Wren

    Some men think me saying “hi” means I want sex. They always find a way to think we want sex with them unless we stab them with a fork (or they think that’s kinky hot).

  • Hekate Jayne

    What I can’t figure out is why males keep on saying this to me. It is like they are so upset that I openly abhor their choice to be sexually violent, and there are always a few of them that desperately want my attention so badly that they say WAAHWAAH, WHY YOU HATE US, THO? WAAH!

    I clearly hate them. But I guess that I am supposed to feel badly about that? Because man feels are so very precious?

    Or maybe I am not supposed to say it? Because I should not hate them? Because males think that they are just the bestest, mostest, specialest creatures ever???

    There is always at least one captain obvious that says something like that to me, and he is expecting my socialization to kick in and for me to start stumbling over myself qualifying my statement and apologizing for being so honest.

    Fuck that dickhead. Right in his ugly manbaby crycry face.

  • Wren

    Fuck off you piece of shit.

  • Hekate Jayne

    Males cannot control their emotions and it makes them dangerous. And annoying.

    I was having a conversation with another woman about how males spend their lives with a free female servant. Their mother serves them for free while training daughters to serve the males as a wife. Males have built female servitude into their systems.

    Anyway, I received about 20 PMs from this one male. The first one said that I was wrong, that mothers don’t serve their sons. Over the course of the rest of the messages, you can guess how he escalated. The last one was something like HOW DARE YOU SAY I DON’T LOVE MY MOM, YOU UGLY BITCH!!!

    Women PM me to disagree with me about random things, and maybe a few of them have been rude. But no woman has ever threatened me with violence. Or said anything about the way I look, probably because they understand that they can’t view me on a message board and this is information that I am aware of.

    Rational and logical thought is not a strong suit of males, but they seem to excel in tantrums and violence. And if this is pointed out by me, WHY YOU HATE MALES, THO.

    It is kind of sad. But also, funny. Because damn. Idiots.

  • Hekate Jayne

    You said:
    “There was no threat here at all thought. Nor is he a threatening presence in any way.”

    So you were there? Or you somehow magically know that she is lying? For all of this great attention that she is getting?

    Do you know that Christian males beat, rape and kill women? That no dude ever admits to less than stellar behavior? And when good dudes murder or rape us, that he always has an excuse about how he isn’t responsible for his chosen actions?

    I hope you do not have daughters.

  • Hekate Jayne

    Well, you certainly seem to be a catch.

    You said:
    “It’s about limits assholes. And much better than Ansari, I stuck to them.”

    So he didn’t stick to his own limits, by your own assessment. And we are discussing it. And that is our right. No one made you come over here to emote and whine about how you totes don’t like this discussion that is taking place no where near you.

    Learn to control your emotions and to be just a little rational. You will live longer, little fella.

  • motosgp

    For those trashing this woman and her story, do you believe Anita Hill? Below is a nice summary of the ways in which Clarence Thomas was defended by those accusing Hill of lying, taken from Wikipedia. Sound familiar? It’s the exact same defense given to Ansari by his defenders. “Why didn’t she just say no?” Why didn’t Ms. Hill just say no? “Why didn’t she just leave?” Why did Anita Hill follow Thomas to another job? “If he’s such a bad guy why did she go to dinner and to his apartment with him?” Why did Anita Hill continue to have contact with Clarence Thomas, including asking her abuser for a job reference? These are demands made of women who accuse men of egregious behavior. It all sounds the same because it is. The same old tactics used to deny a woman’s credibility and humanity. Should women ever date men? Go out to dinner with men? Go to a man’s apartment? Invite a man over? Have sex with men? Marry them? Work with men? Walk the street? Ride the subway? If women avoiding predatory men is how we are to live our lives, we will die of starvation in our homes, never to see the outside world because these men are literally everywhere! In every race! In every class! In every sexuality! In every country! Rape apology leads to the inevitable conclusion that the only way for women to “prevent” rape and unwanted contact from men is death because women and girls have been unable to escape abuse no matter how cautious we are, what clothing we wear, what job we work, how famous we are, how attractive we are, how rich we are. The sad reality is that there is no escape. There is no guarantee that the paranoia and precaution will pay off. Just hope your turn never comes.

    What #MeToo has shown is that women don’t have the power to destroy dangerous men. #MeToo is comprised of stories from the women that supposedly have it all: monied, beautiful, famous, accomplished, white. And yet none of those things, sometimes all wrapped up in a single woman, are enough to save them. No trials have been had. No one has gone to jail or prison. No stonings in the town square. No sweeping legislation. Nothing. If this is where you get off the #MeToo train, you were never really on it.

    “Thomas’s supporters questioned Hill’s credibility, claiming she was delusional or had been spurned, leading her to seek revenge.[13] They cited the time delay of ten years between the alleged behavior by Thomas and Hill’s accusations, and noted that Hill had followed Thomas to a second job and later had personal contacts with Thomas, including giving him a ride to an airport—behavior which they said would be inexplicable if Hill’s allegations were true.[7][9][13][21] Hill countered that she had come forward because she felt an obligation to share information on the character and actions of a person who was being considered for the Supreme Court.[13] She testified that after leaving the EEOC, she had had two “inconsequential” phone conversations with Thomas, and had seen him personally on two occasions, once to get a job reference and the second time when he made a public appearance in Oklahoma where she was teaching.[5]”

    So again I ask, do you believe Anita Hill?

  • Hekate Jayne

    You said:
    “And it is certainly not about alternatively oppressive ideology taking over.”

    Liberating women from male violence and oppression is NOT oppression.

    That is a male view, that if they are not allowed to oppress women, that they are oppressed.

  • Hekate Jayne

    I am married. To a male. A white one, even. I chose not to have kids, though.

    I have been married for almost 2 decades, and a feminist for less than a decade.

    I like him and I am happy. If I had known then what I know now, I wouldn’t have gotten married on principle. I would still be in the same relationship, though.

    I like my marriage, and I like my husband. But I am not upset with women that say that marriage is not a feminist act because they are right.

    I don’t feel judged and no one has asked me to turn in my feminist card. Marriage is something that women sometimes don’t CHOOSE, but it is more of a “choice”, if you know what I mean. We all have to survive. And sometimes our “choices” are shit. So I don’t judge women for “choices”.

    • Meghan Murphy


  • Meghan Murphy

    Coffee shops close at like 7pm and are boring and uncomfortable.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I think men in their 30s (or 40s or 50s) who pursue sex or dating or relationships with 20 year old women are displaying predatorial behaviour.

    “And I disagree that such relationships are definitionally ‘not OK,’ because it’s not just men doing the choosing – women are attracted to powerful men and seek them out. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that.”

    Men are not passive. They can make their own choices (and do). You act like they are incapable of saying ‘no’ because a woman ‘seeks them out’. Do men date or have relationships with every woman who expresses interest?

    “Some people even find power imbalance sexy.”

    Yeah. I’ve written about that many times. Including in this article, when I talk about our understanding of ‘romance’ and expectations in dating. We have normalized and sexualized domination and subordination (power) in this culture — that doesn’t mean it’s ok or a good thing.

    You say ‘attack’, I say ‘challenge’ or ‘criticize.’ It’s insane to ask people who are confronting patriarchy (i.e. feminists) not to look at heterosexual relationships, courtship practices, and, in general, the way men behave, engage with, and approach women for goodness sakes!

  • Meghan Murphy

    You seem pretty angry yourself, bud.

  • Meghan Murphy

    And yet you have accused me of being ‘incredibly angry’ when my comments have been perfectly calm and don’t express any anger at all. Do you know why this is? I’ll give you a hint: it starts with an ‘s’ and end in ‘exism.’

    Sheesh. Men are so sensitive.

  • Meghan Murphy

    HAHAHAHAHA. Yes, clearly WE are the sexist ones. Thanks for the laughs, kid.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I also don’t understand… I don’t feel judged or insulted by critiques of makeup, despite the fact I wear it. I don’t feel judged or insulted by critiques of the meat industry, despite the fact I am not vegetarian. I don’t feel judged by non-drinkers just because I drink. I don’t feel judged by critiques of heterosexuality, despite the fact I am heterosexual. In fact I support those critiques and engage in them myself! I wish people wouldn’t take other people’s choices or critiques of systems/practices so personally.

  • Meghan Murphy


  • Americus91

    Your post is right out of my head!

    What I’m not getting and I welcome anyone explaining this to me – I get the sociopathic males commenting on articles about this – they’re pissed that this “grey” areas has been brought out into the open and they’re not having it. I get the MRA trolls having a field day with all of it.

    What I’m not getting is the women speaking out and writing articles defending him. What is different about this situation compared to the others? Compared to Louis CK and Weinstein – he didn’t have power to make or break her career. What about Franken? Is it really THAT different from that situation? Oh yes, she was on an actual date with the guy.

    So for some women – they’re against sexual predators – but if a woman agrees to a date – then ANYTHING other than full blown brutal rape is fair game?

    Do some women really believe this or are they experiencing cognitive dissonance with Aziz because he’s younger, has a cute innocent smile, because he’s not as “scary” looking? Because he’s a minority?

    Why so much anger towards her and not him from these women?

    • Omzig Online

      It appears that one of the more vocal, defensive female critics of this article is one of Ansari’s lovers.

      The same commenter seemed highly offended that Meghan Murphy chose to write about her dating/lifestyle choices on her own website, so….yeah. Lot of handmaids on this webpage.

      • Hanakai

        Ansari does not have “lovers.” If some woman thinks she is Ansari’s lover, she is delusional. Ansari has no lovers, he has cum-receptacles and porn fantasies. He is, like most porn men, incapable of love and loving.

        And I think that it is high time women started telling the truth about men and how they are treated by porn men, and how horrible porn men are at love and sex. Truth is good.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Ew. Go away.

  • lk

    “Women can and do hurt others just as much as men do.”

    What world do people live in where they really believe this is true?

    Sure woman can hurt others as much as men do, but in really men actually Do the bulk of the hurting nearly worldwide: rape, murder, sexual abuse/sexual assault.

  • Hekate Jayne

    Where does this misinformation come from? That doods are losing ALL OF THE MONEYS to the LADIES?

    The majority of the women that I know that are under 30 have jobs, their own apartments, maybe kids, their own cars. The majority of the males that are under 30 still live at home with their parents.

    When I dated, you would be amazed at the dudes that were all “you own your own house? Cool, when can I move in?”

    There are tons of dudes that are just straight up mooches. And they feel entitled to your stuff.

    I have never had a male give me anything, outside of my father.

    And I know a lot of divorced women. Any that I know that receive money from their ex is only for child support, in disturbingly tiny amounts, and males can’t manage to stay current. If they pay at all.

    And the women without kids get nothing from ex husbands. Which is fine because they don’t need it.

    So where are all of these millions of rich ladies that be scamming innocent doods out of their precious moneys, lol?

  • corvid

    How ’bout you guys collectively lay off the porn and actually learn something about women’s sexuality and boundaries (hint: not what’s represented in porn.)

  • Hekate Jayne

    We can’t expect males to be “nice and communicative”. We have to earn it by going out on multiple dates.

    And then, if we haven’t earned it, then we don’t get it. And it is all our fault!


  • Hekate Jayne

    Male supremacy is maintained by males holding ALL positions, even at the same time.

    That kind of manipulative lying is a special kind of stupid. It can’t be reasoned with.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I predict that, as too commonly happens in the social media/internet age, many people read *about* the story, but did not actually read the story itself, but nonetheless feel qualified to determine whether or not this woman said ‘no’, was clear enough in that she felt uncomfortable, etc. Not all of course, but I bet many of the male trolls here didn’t even bother to read the thing. (Which was, in many ways, unpleasant to read, I will admit, because it was so badly written, but the words and experience of Grace are important, nonetheless, if we are going to form an opinion about them.)

  • Meghan Murphy

    “Pretty sure I explained what going further meant. And it didn’t mean using your bodies as ‘masturbatory tools’, good grief.”

    OF COURSE. I mean, few men would say this outright, but it does not mean that isn’t what’s happening.

    “Buying a drink for a woman you hope to chat up at a bar isn’t remotely the same as setting a date, going out, paying for everything ( because hey, that’s what we’re expected to do) when the woman in the equation had no real interest in the first place.”

    I don’t know what planet you live on, but this is not what is going on. Most women go on dates either because they are already interested, think there is a possibility they could become interested, hope they will be interested, want to see if they are interested etc. Also, I don’t go on dates with men and expect them to pay for everything. I usually contribute or at least try to. The last date I went on, the dude insisted on paying for dinner (I tried to contribute) so when we went out for drinks after, I forced him to let me pay for the drinks. I’d spent many evenings at his place PRIOR to this date and yet MIRACULOUSLY we never had sex. We *gasp* were friends who were attracted to each other and got to know each other by hanging out and talking in various capacities — both in pubic spaces, with friends, at parties, in bars, and in intimate places, like his apartment.

    You watch too much TV.

  • Hanakai

    Thanks for your PSA anouncement, calabasa, which is well-taken.

    I have a minor quibble, though, with your statement: “he’s just a Millennial man whose life was shaped by porn, like most men his age and younger.” The quibble is that his life was not shaped by porn, rather he CHOSE to let porn shape his life, mind, attitude and thinking. Men are not forced to view porn or let it take over their hearts and minds. Men choose to use porn and choose to allow it to influence them. Men choose it in part because it supports their already-existing misogyny and view of women as objects that exist solely for male sexual titillation and gratification.

    In my observation, the men who choose to get involved with porn are already deeply misogynistic and sexist and already adhere to the ideology of male supremacy. Good decent men who see women as human beings do not use porn, instead their reaction to porn is that it is ugly, gross, revolting, degrading and not fit for decent people. No good decent man uses porn.

    Millennials seem to think all men use porn, and maybe in that generation the overwhelming majority do, and so perhaps it is unsurprising that millennials have an ugly, coarse and confused sexuality, including trans-insanity. Oddly with Tinder and hookup culture, sex is easier to come by than ever before and yet millennials, male and female, fill their minds with the ugly unimaginative drivel of porn. There is something seriously pathological about people who choose to get sexually aroused from porn instead of from a genuine mental, physical, emotional, affectional, energetic, pheromonal attraction to a real human being. A normal sexually healthy human animal gets aroused by reality, by touch, by senses, taste, smell, love, genuine attraction and affection. Only a sexually twisted person gets aroused from seeing pornographic degradation and exploitation.

    In real life, there are decent and sexually healthy men who do not give their sexuality over to the fantasies of pornography, who see pornography for the ugliness it is, who understand that porn is the theory and rape is the practice. Decent men and women see porn as mindless, cruel, stupid, ugly, dishonest, hateful and misogynistic, dehumanizing for any participant.

    Therapists’ offices these days are filled with women complaining about porn use by boyfriends and husbands and too many substandard therapists tell these women that porn use is normal. It is not. It is pathological. I do not get why young women get or stay with porn men. Why? A man who uses porn is advertising that he sees women as cum-buckets and objects for his titillation and gratification, that he is complicit with the rape and sexual molestation of children (yes, most female porn performers were raped and sexualized as children). Men typically consume pornography specifically to avoid normal and natural love and affection. Why bother with these men? Porn men are invariably lousy lovers — among other things, their healthy neuronal circuitry has been given over to porn and instead of being turned on by the reality of their partner and centered in their hearts and bodies, they are dissociated and off in their heads playing out porn fantasies.

    When affection and healthy emotion are drained from sex, as in porn, it becomes repetitive and uninteresting, even to men who use it primarily to facilitate masturbation. And so what happens is that porn men need ever more sick porn to get off, cruelty, child porn, snuff porn, rape porn, etc.

    If you are heterosexual and relating to men, why bother with porn men? Why not just throw them out of your reality? Why waste time trying to understand or change porn men? Why not find a decent man who doesn’t use porn? They are out there, some data shows as many as 30% of men do not consume porn. Decent men occupy their time and minds with worthy pursuits: some are setting up clinics to treat women in poor countries, some are working to save the last of the whales, some are looking for ways to reforest the world, some are looking for cures for pediatric cancers, some are suing corporations for sex discrimination, some are taking care of their children.

    Leave the porn men to their porn. Your life will be happier without them in it. Porn men do not deserve the time, attention, company or affection of women.

    • Tinfoil the Hat

      33 years ago when I started dating my husband, I thought he was odd for thinking porn and blowjobs were degrading. I soon grew to be extremely, secretly thankful. But of course I didn’t *tell* anyone! They would have made fun of him.

      How effed up is it that I used to be ashamed that we didn’t watch porn? And that I didn’t give my husband blowjobs as a “reward” for something?

  • Omzig Online

    Dear concern troll,

    Did you happen to read “Grace’s” full statement? I am including it here:

    She told her story anonymously, so it’s not likely that she is “attention seeking.”

    Please pay special attention to the following statements that Grace made to Ansari on their date:

    “Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s just chill.”

    “I don’t want to feel forced because then I’ll hate you, and I’d rather not hate you.”

    Grace made her feelings about Ansari’s “eager”advances very clear, and she gave him many, many chances to hang out without being a transgressive creep.

    Please don’t come to a feminist website and express faux concern for victims of sexual harassment, and then try to justify Ansari’s harassment in the next breath. For two reasons: a) it won’t work, and b) you just outed yourself as an amateur, undesirable creep that flies to the defense of other creeps the first chance he gets. Not a smart move, dude.

  • Omzig Online

    “Grace and her story does a dis-service to women who have really been assaulted.”

    Ha, ha! Nice try, concern troll.

    Gosh, you’re just so concerned for all those REAL assault victims, aren’t you? Oddly enough, though, there just never seem to be any women that qualify as “real” assault victims in your book. Funny how that works.

  • Misanthropia

    Sometimes the minority communities will try to say that a certain western woman is ‘crying rape’ in order to bring a racial celebrity minority down because the western woman in question is supposedly a racist who destroys his career and good standing by false accusations. But as a woman of colour I know this is bullshit. Men everywhere have a collective interest and collective oppressive power over women regardless of the country, religion, or racial group. In fact conflicts and wars between races or groups of men involve raping the ‘other side’s’ women. Males not only view women in their own communities as resources and property. they view women in other communities as resources and property, albeit not belonging to them but to other males.

  • theoryne

    It’s clear from her account that she wasn’t afraid of him. He’s a little (5’6″) wimpy guy for one thing. You can try to rewrite the narrative to make it about fear but that’s not in her story at all.

    • Minerva Conatus

      You didn’t answer my question. What if he had blocked her from leaving? His height has nothing to do with anything.

  • Meghan Murphy


  • FierceMild

    Welcome, I’m glad you’re here! I know this content is very difficult for men. Our comments are also hard to stomach if one hasn’t heard women’s seriously unedited opinions before.

    • Evets

      I welcome unedited opinions. It’s the only way anyone can ever truly learn what other people think. Too much discourse in our society is filled with tiptoe through the eggshells nonsense wherein nothing is ever really expressed. Conversely, at the other end of the spectrum are people speaking from pure emotion which quickly degenerates into unintelligible name calling and vitriol. Thankfully, I’ve found that neither of those extremes are common here. It’s nice to read intelligently written articles and comments that don’t mince words. The conversations can be harsh, but they’re often well-reasoned and force me to think. That’s why I come here.

  • FierceMild

    If you’re not a woman dating these guys you have no idea what they’re doing.

    • outer_rl

      Why shouldn’t I trust my personal experience? You have no basis to tell me it’s wrong.

    • Hekate Jayne

      Like so many males, he doesn’t care what women think. Taking into account our thoughts, experiences, wants, etc., doesn’t fit his extremely narrow male worldview.

      He can’t think critically and he is severely deficient in any emotional intelligence, which is typical of most males. Add to that their entitlement, ability to lie to themselves, and their leanings towards violence to get what they want, and it becomes clear that most males are a toxic mix of rage and stupidity.

      It seems to be a really sad way to exist. I don’t know why they choose such a pathetic way of being.

  • FierceMild

    The choices shouldn’t be;

    A) treat women like victims or children who cannot make decisions

    B) treat women like fuck toilets

    That’s the whole point of the article.

  • FierceMild

    “It might come as a shock to you but the majority of men don’t care about people they do not know.“

    This does not shock us. This is what we are criticizing and saying is wrong.

    • Hekate Jayne

      He also says this:
      “Often they view others in terms of what they represent or offer them.”

      Wow. So males are typically users. They view others by what they can take. I wonder why he hates males.

      There is no misandrist like a misogynist.

  • Wren

    Is this your excuse for Ansari’s behavior?

  • Wren

    Thanks. I think the MeToo movement is mostly a blessing and but slightly a curse: it’s a blessing to have this all out in the open, to have our experiences confirmed, but it’s a lot to take in on a daily basis, for all of us I would think. And we all hurt for each other.

  • Wren

    Hahaha!! I got it from someone else here at FC.

  • Wren

    I can’t take credit!! I got it from someone else here at FC, but can’t remember who. She mentioned it several times.
    Knowledge is power!!

  • corvid

    Shame on you. SHAME on you, for trying to write off the destructive effects of the porn industry on the most vulnerable. For trying to make individual women responsible for damage control. Just as the pollution and destruction of the environment, and the effects on all life, are glossed over and denied by psychopaths like yourself.

    We don’t believe you. We will fight you forever.

  • Hekate Jayne

    I think that you might be the only xy human on this thread that speaks like you have some fucking sense.

    For that reason alone, I am glad to see you.

    • FierceMild

      Danny was in a bit downthread speaking some sense as well.

    • Evets

      Thank you! It means a lot coming from you, Ms. Jayne, as I’ve seen you repeatedly eviscerate the poor, misguided fools who come here and express their dunderheaded opinions. To be honest, it’s been quite entertaining to watch.

  • Hekate Jayne

    That is an MRA idea. It is meant to be shit slinging at women.

    It is males saying “see, ladies? Your complaining has taken all of the spontaneous and romance, and now we have to have a legal contract before we even touch you.”

    The dude that uses this is the same dude that responded to “me, too” by saying “I am just not going to talk to ladies at all because EVERYTHING is sexual harassment. CONFUSING, THO.”

    If you have to use an app to obtain legal consent and to avoid raping me because you just can’t figure out basic human decency, well. That app ain’t going to make dudebro safe.

    It will out him as a creepy creep that doesn’t understand minimum standards of decency. It is useful in that way, I guess.

  • Wren

    Dude, you just admitted that you’re all sociopaths.

  • Wren


  • Americus91

    Was so pleasantly surprised by this.

    I just saw a new piece published by Flannigan attacking “babe” – she’s out for blood, now we have a cat fight between older female journalists and younger ones.

    I say they all need to come to this site and get educated!

  • Hekate Jayne

    And here is something Meghan talks about that has griped me for a long time. Fucking ROMANCE.

    In my opinion, romance is yet another societal concept created by males to manipulate women into doing their bidding. Males created a set of behaviors (flowers, chivalry (ick), opening doors, etc.), and when women don’t just fucking swoon when a dood opens our car door or brings us flowers, then we are ungrateful Bitches.

    The concept of romance is such a male idea, so many of their ideas come down to “if a male does X, then the woman will do Y”. If a male pays for my dinner, then I owe him sex. If I accept a male’s invite back to his house, then I owe him sex. If a male buys me a gift, I owe him sex.

    Males have dictated that we are not human, but the gatekeepers of the sex. And males created the special code that unlocks the lady so that all of the sex comes out at him. And the code is romance.

    And this is why males get shitty if women don’t go all in for romance. Males say that women want romance, and if we don’t immediately fall all over ourselves to gush about how wonderfully romantic their bullshit is, then we are not the correct male ideation of a woman.

    Romance is another version of “charming”. It is a manipulative tactic by males to elicit specific responses from us. Liking romance is just another facet attached to femininity. And like the rest of that, it is bullshit.

    • elDragonata

      All of what you’ve explained is one reason I am essentially antiromantic. The other is that due to the ideologisation and construction of something that is meant to be instinctive and natural, i.e. ‘love’, romance is frankly boring. There’s no soul to it and, as you’ve basically implied, it’s merely a soft approach to reinforcing the insidious gender expectations and stereotypes fostered by society. Because of these expectations too, they can easily become toxic.

  • Hanakai

    Actually, the latest science is showing us that boys start internalizing sexism and misogyny by around age 3. So, yeah, there are already lots of little misogynists running around.

    If an 11-year-old is digging porn, his mind is already twisted. You are making a lot of excuses for boys. In my career, I have seen boys 11 and younger who have murdered their little sister, who have raped a young child, who have horribly tortured and killed animals, so I am not bound or smitten by this fairy tale notion of the “innocent child.”

    While porn use can exhibit some of the indicia of addiction, it is not medically addictive, nor does the neuronal activity with porn coincide with what actual physical addiction (alcohol, methamphetamines, heroin, etc.) does in the brain and body. I think men who ascribe their excessive porn use to addiction are disingenuous and making limp excuses.

    Yes, porn is used by pedophiles to groom children, which is why we need to eliminate and abolish pornography.

    You sure are making lots of excuses for males with their porn. It’s addictive, it’s part of male socialization, they suffered childhood abuse, they start it young. If what you are saying is true, then if their generation of girls is smart, they will avoid close involvement with the males.

    And no, the majority of 11-year-old boys have not been exposed to hardcore porn. Understand that 65% of the planet’s people have never been online. And if a generation of American and developed nations males are poisoned by porn, maybe women should look to the developing world for men who like women and have not internalized a pornhead view of women.

    • Tinfoil the Hat

      I refuse to blame children for being ruined by adults.

      • Hanakai

        It is not a matter of blaming them. It is a matter of seeing reality, the reality that a lot of male children by age 11 are already misogynists, psychopaths and sociopaths.

        • Sabine

          Oh god….it’s just so depressing.

  • Tinfoil the Hat

    “Waaaahhhh! Not all men!”

  • Tinfoil the Hat

    “The females claim allegiance to a faux feminism that caters entirely to desires of males. The girls and women go along with hookup culture, flooding the cybersphere with nude selfies, finding sex partners via Tinder, they condone & applaud pornography, and think of prostitution as empowering women.”

    • Hanakai

      Yep, that is what so-called liberal third-wave feminists do.

  • Tinfoil the Hat

    Lord(ess) above, I CRAVE friendships with women who are single by choice.

  • Hekate Jayne

    Oh, Jesus.

    I love that particular brand of manlogicks. Maybe because it is just so fucking honest about what that particular “special” male thinks about us.

    That we are an object, a resource to be managed, so that all males have an equal shot at mining the female things that males are just entitled to own and fuck because they say so.

    That dude is proud of his evil and scary. Which is really weird.

  • Hanakai

    I know what boys are like. I have boys tear the wings off of endangered butterflies. I have seen them stone a harmless garter snake to death. I have seen them with their BB guns and air rifles and weaponry shooting, injuring, maiming and killing defenseless animals. I have seen the cases of boys who sets cats and dogs on fire, who stuck firecrackers up the anuses of defenseless animals. You can makes apologies for boys, I will not. You can have empathy for boys who torture animals and girls, I will reserve my empathy for the victims.We already have whole cultures and nations on the side of the oppressors, I have no interest in joining them.

    As for your language of boys being “exposed” to porn, no. One is exposed to the flu or some other virus, and not by choice. Porn is not an infectious disease, watching porn is a conscious choice made by men and boys who delight in the humiliation and degradation of women.

    • la scapigliata

      More blah blah blah arguing in bad faith from you. Boys are victims too, and that doesn’t annul bad behaviour of men or that women and girls are majority of victims. Also, psychological addiction is what I’m talking about. You don’t know or understand nearly as much as you think you do. I’m not here to argue. I have nothing more to say to you.

  • Hanakai

    U.S. Justice Department data is that half of rape victims were using alcohol and that shoudl tell you something. Like it or not, there are behaviors that make a women more likely or less likely to be raped. That is not fantasy, that is not victim-blaming, that is just stating fact.

    • la scapigliata

      I was not referring to alcohol, but to the fact that vast majority of rapes are not stranger rapes. I never said the rest of things you are saying. You are victim blaming, throwing strawmen and either deliberately obtuse or arguing in bad faith. Our conversation is done here.

  • Cassandra

    “But I want to know why you would treat your girlfriend like that? Why would you want people to see that and think that you would date anyone you don’t treat like a lady?”

    This shows how much of a sexist asshat you are. What does “treating someone like a lady” mean? Kissing a girl in the hallway is not inherently “disrespectful.”

    Just pure patriarchal vomit on your part.

  • Cassandra

    You do know that there is no such thing as sexism against men, right MRA?

  • Tasmanian Tiger

    This discussion is pissing me off to no end. WHY are men being excused like this? It happens everywhere, I get so sick of it.

    It just goes on and on and on. At NO POINT did consent enter the story. Despite ALL these years of feminists, radical and liberal, hammering on about consent, consent, and not doing anything without consent. This guy pretended to be on the side of feminists, and basically assaulted a much younger woman and intimidated her. He behaved manipulatively, and ”creep” is an understatement given that he went way further than just be creepy. He ignored numerous rejections and he couldn’t even let her go without having to force a kiss on her.

    He DID force himself on her, numerous times in several ways, just not in the way that causes bruises. If you just read the story and strip away any possible sympathy and just look at the facts of his behavior, and the course of events, his behavior was abominable. If this is so shocking for men and women alike, if this is such common behavior (it is), it just shows the scope and extent of the problem.


    a) did not have consent for anything. WHY is this being so easily forgiven

    b) Ignored rejections

    c) Ignored discomfort

    d) had ZERO concern for her well-being

    e) he’s aware of what feminists say

    f) If he’s not unremarkable as a ”bad guy”, well, a LOT of men are unremarkable bad guys.

    Run of the mill pseudo-assaulters. Saying that it’s just socialization and not entirely his fault doesn’t cut it anymore, not for me. He KNEW about consent. He was just so entirely selfish and misogynistic that he kept on forcing and pushing. Are we really still at the point that we’re about to give men brownie points for not ”actually rape-raping” women? For saying sorry? Because I’ve seen that as well, ”oh, well, at least he owns up to it and takes responsibility!” Now let’s talk about actual naivete. (not Grace’s kind) This dude is well-informed enough in what (lib)feminists expect of men, given all the articles they wrote in previous cases where they were angry about lackluster fake apologies. This dude knows what buttons to push, what words and phrases to say. Wow, how impressive, yet he couldn’t even muster the basic human decency to not pretty much sexually assault someone. (including fingering, pressing his penis against her, etc) That is a matter of BASIC RESPECT. Just like I don’t do it, because I see other people as humans and if I saw such a distress, I wouldn’t try to pressure them further, I’d make sure they were alright and stop forcing myself on them. (which I wouldn’t do to begin with)

    So now this ass says ”sorry, my bad” and he’s already forgiven by many? We hold them to SUCH ridiculously low standards… Men keep on getting away with everything. Women dive like hungry pigeons on any crumb that men throw them, and a lame-ass apology is such a crumb. We don’t want to see the awful reality for what it is, but we must. A very substantial amount of men behave like sex criminals. Patriarchy doesn’t excuse them, socialization doesn’t excuse them. Hold them accountable for once! Damnit.

    Poor Grace.

  • marv

    From your second last statement up-thread you said:
    “AND, I have numerous female friends who certainly talk a good game about getting some dick, too. We also fail to call out the women in our (men’s) lives who feed and groom such behavior and excuse it away – mothers, wives, sisters add to the Macho ideal early on. Why do women play a part in that formation?”

    You are calling out women as if their facilitation of machismo is rooted in irresponsible agency. Male organized ways of living – hetero-dominance, marriage, nuclear family, porn, prostitution, economic privatization – divide women among themselves. Male social, economic and political architecture is the cause of the dysfunctional and self-defeating attitudes women have. By blaming them you have revealed the biases in your own question, “Why do women play a part in that formation?”, without any grasp of the male constructs women have to navigate. This shows the folly of bogus reverse sexism which feeds the male paradigm of actual sexism. Without a paradigm shift away from patriarchy there is no hope for “moving forward”. “Whether we like it, or not, this will only change if we are all willing to come to the table and communicate with brutal honesty”.

    • Cassandra

      A+ summation of what’s called CONTEXT for that dickhead.

  • Ada

    I noticed that some authors (Verge, Jezebel…) want to blame 2-wave feminists for backclash against #metoo, especially since Ansari story broke out. I don’t understand it. Are they just that stupid, I think that radfems are one of the biggest supporters of the movement, or they want to use the moment and make “Terfs” look bad in the eyes of young generation of women.

  • Cassandra

    Samantha Bee gets it for sure. I’m continually surprised that she’s “allowed” to do what she does, but I think her adding the “humor” to it takes the sting off, to state the obvious.

  • Cassandra

    You sound like a dude.

  • Cassandra

    Why do so many people not know this or understand why it matters?

  • Blazing Fire

    Agree with everything, except the “I might have 20 years left..” line – I believe you have a lot more fruitful years than that:)

  • Alienigena

    “raises little girls to think they’re princesses”

    Are you kidding? I was raised to be a ‘hewer of wood and drawer of water’. My parents expected us to pitch around the house/cabin including on physically challenging tasks (peeling logs, roofing work, lawn work, etc.). Though my sister and I were also supposed to be well groomed … which to me was a contradiction. Peeling logs and painting them is messy and sweaty work. You need to put a time frame with your claim. I will grant that from the mid-1980s on girl children were inundated by princess paraphrenalia. I wasn’t as a child. I played with lego, puzzles, read a lot, played in the outdoors. One of my Halloween costumes was a bat (not Batman), this was a costume I wanted to wear.

  • Abi Tiki

    Exactly. Romance always seemed to me to be about *symbols* of love, in the absence of love itself.

  • Wren

    Ha! Totally.

  • theoryne

    Your question makes no sense because it’s hypothetical. So we can imagine a million different scenarios, from saying “move” to screaming to spraying him with mace to killing him with the gun in her purse. All would depend on the other hypothetical factors in your hypothetical scenario, including Ansari’s hypothetical reaction. What is your point?

  • marv

    Why is it that younger men with older women is so rare while the opposite is common? Don’t use evolutionary reproductive success psychology as an answer because that is an entirely sexist theory.

    Men choose youthful women because of dominance and pedophilic inclinations as TotalDisregard mentioned, and it makes them feel younger, virile and special to be attracting these women trophies. Almost always there are pronounced gender roles in the relationship. Women do the bulk of unpaid childcare. eldercare and housework. Men make the higher incomes with their careers taking priority over women’s. Women end up taking care of these men when they develop disabilities in middle and old ages. You don’t see very many men being the primary or sole caregivers of disabled women they are in partnership with.

    All of these things occur in same aged couples but are magnified with age disparities

  • Cassandra

    “Because apparently there’s a rare kind of white woman running around with a magenta vulva with kitty ears perfectly portrayed by the pussy hat.”


  • Cassandra

    I love this bit. Wanda is so great.

  • lk

    LMAO at that Wanda sketch…hilarious and spot on!

    IMO, he hasn’t done anything criminal here nor is there evidence that he was violating workplace sexual harassment laws, so I don’t really think he should be fired.

    I think Aziz like many men just think predatory, manipulative, coercive behavior is just part of males pursuing women sexually. At this point, I just want men like Aziz to just do better, to just treat women better.

    That being said mainstream comedy is primarily male-dominated and beyond sexist, so I would welcome more women in the comedy game.

  • Maureen

    “Who’s even trying to criminalize it?”

    Well I for one think Ansari’s behavior is criminal. Here is a definition of rape that actually makes sense to me, from Catharine MacKinnon:

    “So I’m proposing rape redefined … [as] a physical invasion of a sexual nature under circumstances of threat or use of force, fraud, coercion, abduction, or the abuse of power, trust, or a position of dependency or vulnerability.

    Then recognize that psychological, economic, and other hierarchical forms of force are coercive, including age, mental and physical disability, and all other inequalities, including sex and gender. Add in: vulnerability includes drunkenness, unconsciousness. Inequalities would be recognized as a form of coercion when mobilized to force sex in specific interactions.

    In other words, for a criminal conviction we need to show the active exploitation of the inequality, not merely the fact of it. And then where any of the listed means are used, the ‘consent’ of the victim would be irrelevant.”

  • Sabine

    “It is about how men view and treat women, it is about our notion of
    “romance,” which often is connected to dominating behaviour on the part
    of men; the romanticization of male control, jealousy, and even
    violence; and the notion that men should be the pursuers and that women
    must always be playing defense. It is about the idea that men “need” sex
    in order to survive and that they are incapable of controlling their

    Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

  • Sabine

    I just recently spent an incredible month in a beautiful country in Asia. Just an amazing trip. Do you know the only things that marred it? Men. Walking along a staggeringly gorgeous beach and being flashed at by a teenage boy who was young enough to be my son was one of them. It was about 9.30 in the morning and I had just arrived and was feeling completely elevated by the beauty of the place. And then this fuckin’ kid…He was not expecting me to go after him, ready to punch his lights out. Never seen anybody run so fast. I was enraged. An unwanted penis in paradise. I would have knocked his block off if I’d got hold of him.There were a couple of other incidents, none actually (physically) harmful but gross and unnerving. Literally the only negative memories I have of that trip involve males. Fuckers are everywhere, ruining things.

  • marv

    The male class as a whole is not all the same but as a group they do have advantages over women: women’s unpaid reproductive labour and lower wages for work of equal value. Men don’t have to deal with being pornified or systemic violence by women. Decent men are complicit in patriarchy when they dont’t act in solidarity with feminists to end the male dominant system of oppression.

  • Liz

    If you don’t like it here .Why don’t you just leave?

  • Meghan Murphy

    “Seduction” and “romance” are not the same thing, though, imo. “Romance” is all rooted in gender roles (sex roles)… Like, proposals, diamonds, all this performance, all this “men need to buy things for women in order to woo them” etc etc. It’s stupid and sexist. Relationships should be based on friendship (and attraction and sexual compatibility, sure, if it’s a sexual relationship), but I don’t need to be wooed in order to “fall in love” with someone (whatever that means).

  • Meghan Murphy

    I’ve fallen in love many times over. I fall in love very quickly and deeply, in fact. Despite that, I still don’t know that that term has any particular meaning… It’s just kind of an irrational, intangible feeling.

    • Hekate Jayne

      Be careful. He may make you fall in love with him. He has done that many, many times.

      It’s like we are love ATMs, and he has cracked the code.

      • Meghan Murphy


  • Meghan Murphy

    Sure, I mean, I suppose one of the main problems I have with ‘love’ or ‘falling in love’ is that it is usually connected to a romantic relationship and there is a hierarchy wherein love between men and women is on top. In reality, we can love all sorts of people in different ways. I also feel like women placing ‘falling in love’ on pedestal sets up unrealistic expectations of relationships that are not based on mutual respect or friendship, which is a problem.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Right. And beyond that, I’m troubled by notions of ‘love’ as they are connected to hetereosexual couplings — as though this ‘love’ is the end all be all and should ‘conquer all’. It just encourages women to put up with bullshit and stay in relationships with men that are not healthy or beneficial to them.

    • Hekate Jayne

      Yep. And all of that creepy male verbal vomit about how us ladies just LURV love, and those of us that don’t comply with the not so fucking subtle demands are just icey, frozen, glaciers of the coldest ever ice would be annoying. If I gave a shit about what males think about anything.

  • Meghan Murphy

    All men learn this lesson, though. That sex is about *their* pleasure. This is simply what men learn under patriarchy. That is not the same as saying that all adult men only care about *their* pleasure (though I’d argue that a majority really only do) — I’m talking about socialization and cultural messages.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “How do you know what men learn? Did you read about it in a book written by a woman? Did you hear about it from a man? Did you do your own analysis of socialization and cultural messaging in the US? Did you learn from someone else’s analysis? Or did you just have an idea and figured it sounded right?”

    I’ve observed through cultural messaging in, for example, media and porn culture, through my own experience with men, through talking to many, many other women, through feminist analysis, through talking to men, etc. etc.

    Considering that women don’t orgasm the majority of the time they have penetrative sex with men, it’s odd men continue to view ‘sex’ as penetrative, and limit their sexual practices to that, if what you claim is true, eh?

    Women who watch porn (and women in general) also learn that the primary purpose of heterosexual sex is male pleasure.

    I do get out of my ‘feminist bubble’ quite regularly. The men I date are not radical feminists (obviously), nor are most of my irl close friends. I of course spend lots of time with radical feminists as well, but my closest friends are people I’ve know from high school and elementary school. Some are feminist, some are not. They aren’t anti-feminist, of course, but they would never consider themselves radical feminists. We agree on various things and disagree on others. I engage with a wide variety of people, believe it or not. You seem to have a very stereotypical view of what the lives of radical feminists are. We’re regular people….

  • Meghan Murphy

    “However, saying that men ‘learn’ that their own pleasure is all that matters with sex, and worse, claiming that men generally believe that, is actually quite rude and based on stereotypes.”

    It’s not ‘rude’ to talk about socialization/cultural messages…

    “If I said women ‘learn’ that once they are married they can get fat and stop having sex with their husbands because women ‘learn’ that once they’re married their man is on the hook for alimony, how would you react?”

    Where do they learn this? And if indeed they did learn this, who cares?

    “There’s a lot that is odd about this sentence. ‘Sex’ is how we reproduce, so ‘sex’ in that narrow definition is exclusively penetrative heterosexual sex.”

    So you see my point? That what we generally understand to be “sex” in this culture is heteronormative and centered around male orgasm?

    “But it’s odd that you would suggest that men limit their sexual practices to penetrative sex. I’m not aware that men got together and decided we were no longer interested in any kind of sexual activity besides penetrative sex. Seriously, is this idea backed by something, or are you just generating vague ideas based on stereotypes from sitcoms you’ve watched?”

    How many men have you had sex with?

    “And a large part of the reason women do not orgasm from penetrative sex is because the majority of men in the US have had their genitals mutilated at birth. Do a little research into how the sex act changes when the foreskin is removed from the equation, and hopefully you will come around (if you haven’t already) to be being anti-circumcision.”

    I am absolutely opposed to circumcision. I’ve read the research you reference above and it definitely pisses me off! But the main issue is that most women orgasm from clitoral stimulation. (Not all — I am a good example of an exception to this rule, but almost all of my female friends don’t orgasm from penetrative sex.)

    “I didn’t really see a rebuttal to the idea that men are taught that making a woman orgasm is the defining aspect of how good a man is at sex. That concept reveals that, generally, to men, to be good at sex means to be able to pleasure the woman. Being perceived as bad at sex is humiliating, so suggesting that men generally believe that they don’t have to care about the woman’s pleasure seems seriously confused.”

    Most men don’t realize they are bad at sex because women fake it to protect their egos.

    “I would really love to hear about your observations of “media culture,” and how it teaches men that all that matters during sex is their own pleasure. I’d love to hear what you heard from talking to men that made you believe they think their pleasure is all that matters. Because if you actually have no evidence-based reason for making the claims that all men “learn” that their own pleasure is all that matters in sex and that most men believe that, you ought to realize that that is an extremely rude accusation which just sounds like stereotyping. You can’t make the concrete claim that all men learn that their pleasure is all that matters in sex based off your anecdotal experience and biased interpretation of the utterly massive media landscape (you couldn’t even analyze a fraction of current media let alone the media that influenced the generations before you). You can’t casually throw that idea in a paragraph and act like it needs no support other than the existence of porn (you are aware there are a large number of men who are anti-porn, yes?). I’m not convinced you’ve even thought through your argument, seeing as you claim that women too learn from porn that all that matters is the man’s orgasm.”

    If you watch porn, it’s very clear what the goal of sex is (as per porn): male orgasm/pleasure. And again, how many men have you had sex with? It’s very clear, as a woman who has sex with men, what their priorities are. It’s not ‘rude’ to say so.

  • marv

    But one sex is by and large the owner of the industry. Women make up a fraction of the manufactures.

    Most males are watching porn and it is having a huge impact on how they are treating females and having sex:

    “Pornography is ubiquitous. While more than three-quarters of Australian men report having watched pornography in the last year, younger cohorts are even more likely to consume pornographic material and use it habitually – on either a daily or weekly basis.”

  • Meghan Murphy

    “You ask, how many men have I had sex with? I guess I could ask you the same, no? Have you had sex with a sizeable percentage of men – enough to make statements about all men in general?” I think so, yes.

    “Are you sure you haven’t just had series of selfish lovers?” Yes, I’m sure. They haven’t all been bad! The thing is, though, that with most men there is a “teaching” process… Most men really do approach sex in a similar way. Especially when they’re younger. It doesn’t mean all men don’t *want* women to experience pleasure, it’s that they all watch too much porn so *assume* that women will simply enjoy what *they* enjoy.

    “They learned it from the misandrist society that privileges women in family courts.”

    Ha. That is ridiculous. Society is not misandrist and historically the courts have favoured men. You might find this podcast informative

    “Seriously, do you think men are incapable of pair bonding? Of caring for a romantic partner?”

    Of course not. Where on earth did you get that idea?

    “I can’t speak to your sexual encounters, but perhaps it’s the rise in casual sex and sex between participants who care very little about each other that is causing an increase in selfish lovemaking.”

    Casual sex is indeed generally not satisfying for women. It’s once you get to know someone a little more and feel comfortable with them that sex tends to get better. That said, there are countless husbands who expect ‘maintenance sex’ — i.e. who believe women should have sex with them whether they feel like it or not. This is because they believe they are entitled to sex and that it doesn’t really matter if the woman is into it or not. Sure, they want her to pretend, but they still think their orgasms are a right, and hers are just a lucky bonus.

    “But if you really have never had a man who seemed to care about your pleasure during sex, maybe you’re around some seriously piss-poor guys. Maybe get out of the city, find some slightly less self-absorbed people.”

    You’re creating a dichotomy that doesn’t really exist in the real world. It’s not really as simple as ‘caring’ vs ‘not caring’. Plenty of men would insist they did care, but still, at the end of the day, they have learned that their orgasms and pleasure are the priority. Men in the city are no less ‘self-absorbed’ than anyone else, also. As if rural guys are somehow less misogynistic. Please.

  • Meghan Murphy

    ‘You don’t know any of this. You don’t know what countless husbands do. You don’t know what context their interactions with their wife are.’

    Yes I do. I have talked to hundreds of women about their relationships and experiences with men, and have read much more. I also *know* first-hand how men behave in relationships, having been in many relationships with men. You need to get out more, or just start listening.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Porn, by and large, is made by and for men. There are exceptions to that rule, of course, but the exception does not make the rule.

  • marv

    Men, especially white ones, own and control the bulk of wealth in the whole world.

    Men founded and primarily run governments, capitalism, industrial agriculture, the military, religions and every other powerful institution. Men created and mostly operate the business of porn. These are facts not conjecture. The minority of women who make porn in the enterprise are following a male dominant pathway to claim a share of the profits – assimilation. They are cashing in on a male system. It doesn’t make porn less of a male institution to have women promoting it.

    Why are you arguing irrationally rather than with reason?

  • Meghan Murphy

    It’s true…. Men don’t talk to each other about details of sex and relationships (well, most of them… I’m sure there are exceptions). The only communication is, as you say, “I fucked her” or something of the like. Meanwhile women talk about literally everything. Whether he is ‘good’ or ‘bad’, the specific details or why or why not, his personality, behaviour and so on and so forth. It’s weird how little men talk to one another. I don’t get it.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I didn’t say ‘brainwashed.’ Again, I’m talking about socialization. If men genuinely cared about female pleasure as much as or more than their own, sex would look a lot different than it does. Of *course* some men are good in bed and care about their partner’s pleasure, but in general, heterosexual sex is male centered/centered around the male orgasm.

  • ptittle

    Interesting interpretation, thanks for your response.