• Omzig Online

    Very refreshing to hear someone from academia discuss the incoherence of transgender ideology, while most professors seem to be swallowed up by jargon and Orwellian Newspeak.

    Here’s another article written in a similar vein: https://www.truthdig.com/articles/from-identity-politics-to-academic-masturbation/

    • Maeve

      Great piece! Thanks for the share

  • Maeve

    Yes, great article. I’ve always suspected that the trans project was a perpetuation of the post modernest denial of our deep ecology and dependance on the material world. From my perspective, our dependance on all life is what makes the human experience interesting because it requires a response to the world that results in truly seeing beyond surface. Trans ideology is antithesis of the shamanic journey, thereby flattening and mechanizing everything that makes the living experience a magestic wonder. I’m concerned about the uncritical acceptance so many people give to the trans agenda. The patriarchal legacy has always reinforced such things, especially in its dominant religions, ironically. The moment you play god by controlling and constructing material in order to fit it tightly within a human ideology is the moment you’ve lost not only important first principles but the sanity of togetherness. And no, we are not phobic of humans as they are, only critical of the theories we are spoon fed. We are actually quite sensitive and compassionate towards the diversity of humans which led us to critique patriarchy in the first place. If trans people want to adopt their ideologies to justify their experiences, that is fine with me, just don’t expect me to chuck out my reality and experience in order to flatter another’s.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Can you explain gender identity in a coherent way?

  • susannunes

    Question and a bit off-topic: Is “Jack” related in any way to the late journalist David Halberstam?

  • M. Zoidberg

    What’s a woman, Ivy? Try not using any stereotypes now…

  • fragglerock

    I find it disturbing that the definition of “progress” seems to mean becoming increasingly narcissistic–putting ourselves at the center of the universe and denying any impact we have on the world around us or the people in it. Everyone just lives in their own individual reality that needs to be validated and accepted by everybody else. Questioning or criticizing anything is “literal violence” and blind acceptance is a requirement. I guess I’m glad there are others out there as confused and frustrated as I am.

  • Christine

    Where does Robert Jensen say the trans movement is “wrong”? He observes “the principle of charity”: you don’t seem to extend the same courtesy.

    If a person wanted to learn or brush up on her calculus, she could find any number of people who would be happy to walk her through it, or she could pick up a textbook that would explain it. There is no such manual on the subject of what it means to identify as a member of the opposite sex. No-one gets angry when people ask questions about calculus, either.

    I never studied calculus myself, but I’ll tell you something I do know: it is actually a human invention. Newton and Leibniz did not “co-discover” it, they co-invented it.

    Gender is an invention, too. And one that does not work nearly as well as the calculus.

  • Christine

    Where did Robert Jensen say that anything trans* is “wrong”? He has observed “the principle of charity”, but you are not extending the same courtesy.

    If a person wants to learn calculus, she can find someone to walk her through it, or she can read a textbook. I still haven’t found a book that clearly (or scientifically) explains how a person identifies as a member of the opposite sex — or, if you prefer not to recognize biological sex as a reality, a book that describes the signs that indicate to a person that “they” is a “them”, or literally whatever. In other words, how would I know if I were trans*? Is it really unfair to ask that question?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Way to not respond to literally anything the author says, thereby proving (once again) that this ideology is indefensible.

  • woodrose

    There are books that coherently explain calculus, step by step. It’s possible, it’s been done.

    Jensen is a professor himself. If transgender ideology and this book were comprehensible, he’d be able to figure it out. And explain it to the rest of us.

  • Jen Miller

    Strong review. I’ve not made a close study of Halbertsam’s work, but a huge problem with contemporary “progressive” academia seems to lie with incredibly convoluted language, refusal to take a clear stand on anything, picking things apart without offering any tangible alternative and, what feels like an attempt to make people feel stupid for saying “I don’t get it” or “this doesn’t make sense”. This is not conducive to respectful, productive debate, and when these ideas go through the lens of social media they seem to turn completely unintelligible sometimes.

  • Omzig Online

    Here’s a challenge:

    Describe transgender ideology in a way that is a) coherent b) does not employ circular logic, and c) does not perpetuate stereotypes about women and femininity.

    Extra points if you can actually do this by using the Scientific Method!

  • Meghan Murphy

    I mean, we’re talking about ideas… “Gender identity” is just ideology. So yes, of course a journalist should be able to comprehend ideas and ideology. Clearly he is an intelligent man. If you can’t explain your ideology to intelligent people and journalists, perhaps you should work on that.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I mean, it’s not coherent, and I’ve explained why in my work numerous times. But no, that’s not how this works. If you would like to convince people of an argument, you need to make that argument.

    • Poison Ivy

      I don’t feel the need to convince people that my gender identity is real. Only to fight for equal rights and recognition. If you never personally accept me as the person I know I am, that’s not my problem. You can lead a horse to water, and all that.

      I have bigger fish to fry. Like achieving basic human rights, eliminating “trans panic” as a valid legal defense, fighting systemic legal discrimination against us, honouring those of us lost to the hands of cis people, trying to keep myself and my friends alive, and so forth. Your personal opinions are not on my radar. Only real, life-saving change for trans people.

      • Meghan Murphy

        If you are going to create public policy and legislation around an idea, then you do indeed need to convince people it is a real and valid thing. And if the concept of ‘gender identity,’ and creating public policy and legislation around gender identity isn’t important to you, what are you even arguing with us about?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Jensen quoted the author at length, and it is not coherent… You have already shown you are incapable of explaining it coherently either… I mean, you’re kinda just proving Jensen’s point.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Oh this is a cool trick! You don’t have to explain your ideology in a coherent way, despite the fact you believe everyone should adopt and support said ideology, despite the impact on women’s rights and broader society, because SOMEHOW explaining what you mean in a way that makes sense will kill you!?!? Good lord, the reach.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Again proving Jensen’s point… You aren’t repping your movement very well, dude…

  • Meghan Murphy

    I mean, it wouldn’t matter, except that we’re talking about public policy and legislation that affects everyone, especially women. If trans-identified people really did just want to wear what they want and identify how they wise, without forcing it onto others, it wouldn’t be an issue, but that’s not the case.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Love that essay.

  • Meghan Murphy

    lol

  • FierceMild

    So you’re saying that the word trans can be read as “someone who doesn’t want to be murdered?” Well, at least that’s coherent. And every single person in the world is trans.

  • Cassandra

    “…we can realize “the body is always under construction…””

    What does this even mean? Seriously, does anybody have any idea? How is the human body always under construction? If anything the human body is always under destruction, as we are organic and our bodies are aging every moment we’re alive. Is that what she (Halberstam) means? Is it as simple as that?

  • Christine

    So you simply don’t believe Jensen’s statement that he “came to the book hoping to gain greater understanding of the claims of the transgender movement, which [he has] not found elsewhere”. Do you care to explain why?

    Jensen has read the book and you have not, but you think you know more about the book than he does. That is hubris.

  • Alienigena

    I think that it is just snobbish to claim that if people can’t understand your writing there is something wrong with them. First and foremost academics are educators and if they are writing in a manner that is completely incomprehensible to lay people imagine what they put their students through.

    Yeah, the whole ‘no one understands our pain’ is just incredibly offensive to any woman anywhere given the amount of hate directed at women for having a female body and as you indicated to disabled people. Even those whose disability is invisible to the general public can feel at odds with their body. I have asthma and when I get a cold (not the flu) I undergo a horrible transformation. I literally have been unable to walk short distances (even getting up off the couch was exhausting) due to mucus clogging my lungs. Your body feels like the enemy and its failures like a betrayal. So, yeah, not impressed with trans PR that claims only they suffer from alienation from their physical bodies.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Indeed it is. We should all strive to be as clear and plain as we can in our arguments/writing. If people can’t understand your arguments/writing, then it means you need to work on your arguments/writing. Pretentiousness of this nature drives me nuts.

      • -Jane Don’t-

        I agree. I think the people that do this are trying to present themselves as high-brow, educated elite types and they just come off as pompous assholes. I can’t stand it. If anything, it takes more intelligence to break down a complex topic, clearly present it to a wide audience, and make it enjoyable for people to read.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I am opposed to the gender binary. I am opposed to gender. If you knew how to read, you would understand this and why, but no problem, I can explain:

    Gender = masculinity and femininity. These concepts are imposed on males and females from birth, under patriarchy, in order to reinforce male supremacy and female subordination. Gender is not something one is born with, but rather something we are socialized into.

    Male and female, on the other hand, are biological realities describing the roles of human beings in reproduction (i.e. females produce eggs/ova, males produce sperm that fertilizes the eggs).

    Does that help?

    Now do go ahead with your explanation of ‘gender identity.’

  • Meghan Murphy

    To be fair, I say ‘dude’, to men and women. But yes, I assumed you were male. Am I wrong? Apologies, if so.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Great. Once you do read it, perhaps you’ll be able to clearly explain the arguments made in the book?

  • Meghan Murphy

    If it isn’t an ideology, what is it?

  • Meghan Murphy

    The ideology in reference is the notion that there is such a thing as ‘gender identity.’ The ‘movement’ in question refers to trans activists, who advocate for said ideology to be incorporated into policy and legislation, and work to force others around them to adopt trans ideology (or gender identity ideology, if you prefer).

  • Meghan Murphy

    Do you mean men?

  • Meghan Murphy

    No one understands it. Not even you. If you did understand it, you could explain these ideas/arguments clearly, but you can’t.

  • Meghan Murphy

    How so? How does a male become ‘a woman’?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Nah.

  • Meghan Murphy

    lol men murder women all the time. Including men who don’t ‘identify’ with masculinity. You’re either a liar or you’re delusional.

  • woodrose

    Hating your own healthy body is so bizarre to me. I am grateful every day that I can hike 5 miles up a hill anytime I please. Many years ago, I decided that I have a MAGNIFICENT body (thick ankles and all) simply because it is a healthy body that allows me to do anything I want. Feminism helped me to learn that simple joy. It’s one of the reasons I’m so opposed to transgender ideology — it is teaching kids body negativity instead of body positivity.

    Sorry to read of your pain. I’m not trying to gloat with this reply, hope it doesn’t come across that way. All the best to you.

    • -Jane Don’t-

      “I decided that I have a MAGNIFICENT body.”

      Good for you, seriously! I read that and was slightly jealous…I WISH I had that mind set. Someday, hopefully I will get there! <3

      • woodrose

        Hillary Clinton feels she has a great body. I once read a comment from a stylist who had dressed her that she had never heard Hillary make any kind of deprecating comment about her body, never a joke about needing to cover her big butt or anything like that, not at all. She and I are of the same generation of feminism.

        I really admire that Hillary kept her own confident body-image while being in the public spotlight. She did hire the makeup artist and hair stylist, but it was always strictly because she had to in order to be in TVLand. The moment she was no longer a candidate and she could live as she pleased, they were gone.

    • Tobysgirl

      I love this. I get really angry at able people who fuss and whine about their bodies. I want them to spend a few weeks in a wheelchair or not be able to sleep in a bed or not be able to climb stairs or not be able. And the idea that we support people who want to mutilate healthy tissue because they think they’re a different sex is absurd. If you hate your body there’s only one person who can do the work to turn that around, and that’s YOU.

  • Omzig Online

    Here are some more examples of transgender-identified males committing violence against women and children. Many of these crimes occurred in women’s bathrooms and locker rooms:

    http://nounequalrights.com/information/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/The-Threat-to-Women-and-Girls-Illustrated-1.pdf

    http://k2radio.com/breaking-casper-defendant-gets-30-45-years-for-rape-of-10-year-old/

    https://theysaythisneverhappens.wordpress.com/

    • Wren

      Kudos to the Casper paper for calling him a him.

      • Omzig Online

        I honestly don’t see why more media outlets aren’t reporting these rapists and murderers as male. Why do they feel like they owe a rapist the courtesy of a “preferred gender pronoun?”

        With so many excellent female journalists out there (looking at you, Meghan Murphy!) why aren’t more of them repulsed by the thought of reporting these thugs as ‘female’?

        • Meghan Murphy

          I think they must not know that it matters… Or tell themselves it doesn’t? idk…

  • Omzig Online

    Nice circular argument, sir!

    Saying “Trans women are women” is like saying fool’s gold is gold. It’s like saying seahorses are horses.

    Nobody’s denying anyone of equal rights by identifying a male as a male.

    You’ve got no argument, just circular logic and cheap appeals to emotion.

    • Wren

      “It’s like saying seahorses are horses.”
      LOVE THIS.

  • Alienigena

    Saying ‘gotcha’ several times in succession isn’t a coherent argument it is just juvenile.

  • pyrite00

    Dana Rivers murdered two lesbians and their son in late 2016. He is one of you.
    Shiloh Quinne is another trans murderer.

  • pyrite00

    You willingly came into this conversation. You are free to leave any time…….or is sucking up time and attention from real women part of your fetish?

  • LordofLight

    Same old same old with the comments on this article. A rational argument (namely the article) is presented with the author bending over backwards to accommodate transactivist gibberish, which is what those cited passages are. Transactivists respond with more gibberish loaded with wild, unsubstantiated allegations of assault, homicide and inciting violence directed at feminists. Feminists somehow manage to keep their composure and ask for clarification, or at least a discussion. Transactivists refuse to answer questions and reiterate their firmly held belief that feminists are the most violent people since the Manson Cult, yet provide no examples — other than alleged thought crimes. Rinse and repeat.

    If feminists are really wrong in their assumptions that transgender ideology jeopardizes women’s rights, then all it should take is a rational, thoughtful argument to debunk them. If you’re hurling insults and demanding that someone shut up, then you may want to consider that your position might not be as strong as you think. Personally, I think they have legitimate concerns, and I don’t understand the vitriol and especially the refusal to engage.

  • Omzig Online
  • anne cameron

    I’m sorry. I have no frikken idea what is meant by this word salad. The trans-wotsit is just the most recent fad and many flakey people are rushing to jump up on the bandwagon. Me too me too me too… they are the infiltrators of the patriarchy, they want to be allowed into women-only spaces, they want they want they want because they are spoiled little Tinkerbelles who need to hear the word NO.
    They are not working for “social justice”. They just want us all to look at them, notice them, and give them whatever in hell it is they think they want at this exact moment. Me too me too me too.
    Oh well, fuck right off!

    • May Loo

      They have been coddled for too long.

  • Wren

    “fleshy insistence” sounds like something from a terrible erotic novel.

  • FierceMild

    She’s a woman because “woman” means adult human female and Ms. Murphy is adult, human, and female.

  • Wren

    Whatever you think of Nietzsche, this is a damn fine quote on the topic:

    “Obscurity is the refuge of those wishing to appear profound. The herd thinks all water is deep where it cannot see the bottom. Whoever knows he is deep, strives for clarity; whoever would like to appear deep to the crowd, strives for obscurity. For the crowd considers anything deep if only it cannot see to the bottom: the crowd is so timid and afraid of going into the water.”~ Friedrich Nietzsche

  • Can’tUnseeIt

    “The asterisk holds off the certainty of diagnosis; it keeps at bay any sense of knowing…the meaning of this or that…”
    So, no danger of the reader “collapsing into concise definitions” because post-modern babble has already signaled “the end of the coherent individual.”
    I suppose if you have already left the land of “carbon-based life forms”, AKA EARTH, you no longer need to make sense at all. Coherence, like consistency, must now be the hobgoblin of small minds. phht.

  • Omzig Online

    According to research done by the Williams Institute at the UCLA, there are approximately 1,400,000 transgender-identified people in the USA. The HRC reports 24 trans people murdered in 2017 by so-called “cis” people in the US.

    This means transgender people have a 0.00001714% chance of being murdered. This is hardly a genocide. Not by a long shot.

    Have you stopped to consider that maybe we’re not transphobic at all? Maybe we’re just sick of your lies, frenzied hyperbole, and your general inability to acknowledge facts?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Female = sex, not gender. How many times do we need to explain this to you?

  • Meghan Murphy

    How is a ‘transwoman’ a woman? What makes him a woman?

  • Meghan Murphy

    How is it a privilege to grow up hating your body because you were born female?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Dude. If you continue to conflate sex and gender, this conversation is over. We can’t have a productive conversation if you invent new meanings for words. If you actually read the article above, you would understand this.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t have a ‘female gender identity’. Am I not a woman?

  • Meghan Murphy

    What’s the condition?

  • Meghan Murphy

    No, this is not an established fact. This is a belief.

  • FierceMild

    “You need to find a set of characteristics that only exclude trans women in order for your argument to work.”
    Mammary glands
    Vagina
    Ovaries
    uterus
    There you go, all trans woman excluded.

  • FierceMild

    You should if you like the calculus!

  • FierceMild

    Illness, malformation and disorders of the reproductive system are misfortunes not proof that there is no such thing as a woman. A human born with one leg does not constitute proof that humans aren’t bipedal.

  • There’s no such thing as a “cis” person and therefore there’s no such thing as “cis priviledge”. I would never tell a depressed person to cheer up; I would advise them to find a good therapist to help them locate the roots of their depression in the depths of their psyche. I would advise the same thing for people who hate their bodies.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Here’s the deal: we can agree that “sex” = biological sex, and “gender” = gender roles/stereotypes (i.e. the ideas about people’s personalities and behaviour imposed on them based on their sex), or you can go away. If we can’t agree to use words accurately there’s no point in any of this. You’ve been given many chances here to engage in good faith.

  • Meghan Murphy

    No, females don’t produce sperm…

  • Meghan Murphy

    A male who identifies as a trans woman will never have a ‘normal vagina, womb, and ovaries.’ Vaginas are not just holes that exist for dicks to go in.

  • Tobysgirl

    If I grew a full beard, I could join the circus!

  • Meghan Murphy

    lol ok

  • Meghan Murphy

    Still doesn’t make sense because sex is just a biological fact, it’s not an identity.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “A cis person is simply someone whose gender identity matches the sex they were assigned at birth.”

    That applies to NO ONE. “Gender identity” is not a real thing. People just have personalities. Get over it.

  • Melanie

    But according to your previous comments a trans woman has always had a female identity, not a male one?

  • Minerva Conatus

    Faux vaginas are very, very far from being “functional”. They are merely crude approximations of the real thing. They do not have muscle that can contract or widen to accommodate an infant’s head; they cannot produce lubrication. They are just tubes of flayed penile skin or misplaced colon tissue.

    Don’t be dishonest and attempt to lead people to believe that they can get surgery to achieve something that isn’t achievable.

  • Minerva Conatus

    What is a “masculine body”, though, if sex is only determined by one’s inner “gender identity”? If you have a “female gender identity”, then wouldn’t any body you inhabit be a “feminine” body, by definition?

  • Minerva Conatus

    My brain is a part of my body.

  • Minerva Conatus

    I think that you may need a refresher course on anatomy.

    Males make sperm. Not “usually”, but always. In my textbooks, sperm are, in fact, referred to as the “male gametes”.

    Females release eggs. Not “usually”, but always. In my textbooks, ova are, in fact, referred to as the “female gametes”.

    Fetuses do grow in the womb–what category of humans possess a womb? What category of humans do not possess a womb?

    Babies are born via the vagina–what category of humans possess a vagina? What category of humans do not possess a vagina?

  • Minerva Conatus

    So it doesn’t matter what my physical body is like? My inner “gender identity” is all that matters?

  • FierceMild

    Boys might be jumpier than girls (but we don’t know that) so there’s no such thing as gestation or mammalian reproduction?!

  • acommentator

    It may be that there are a lot of different things going on with trans. I thing a simple male/female breakdown is probably over simplifying it too. I am not convinced there is not a genetic or medical thing underlying at least some of it.

    It is probably very complicated.

  • M. Zoidberg

    >>”a trans woman is a woman even before she transitions

    Burden of proof is on you, baby. Now how the fuck are you supposed to prove that? And don’t copy and paste some vague psycho-babble “research” from a vanity press.

  • M. Zoidberg

    >>”scientists don’t question it’s [gender identity’s] existence.

    Who are these scientists? No reputable scientists, that’s who.

  • Virginia Howard

    If you’re an agnostic about souls, then I’m skeptical about the
    brain being equated with the mind. There’s
    been no successful head/brain transplant to date, so there’s no proof that my
    scintillating self would manifest in another body. And a propos of transplants and brains
    muttering in jars, has science really explained everything concerning the plight
    of trans to your satisfaction? What
    about culture, what role does it play in the dysphoria? Feminism has generated
    a potentially revolutionary critique of femininity and our culture’s devaluation
    of women, surely trans people could benefit from this critical stance.

    Unless trans are somehow exempt from culture’s influence.

  • Virginia Howard

    If you’re an agnostic about souls, then I’m skeptical about the brain being equated with the mind. There’s been no successful head/brain transplant to date, so there’s no proof that my scintillating self would manifest in another body.
    And a propos of transplants and brains muttering in jars, has science really explained everything concerning the plight of trans to your satisfaction? What about culture, what role does it play in the dysphoria? Feminism has generated a potentially revolutionary critique of femininity and our culture’s devaluation of women, surely trans people could benefit from this critical stance.

    Unless trans are somehow exempt from culture’s influence.

  • will

    You have had questions politely posed by me and other commenters and you have ignored them.

  • will

    That does not count as a citation.

    • Topazthecat

      It really isn’t surprising at all that the sexes brains are more alike than different,( although given the fact that there is a lot of evidence from neuroscience that human brains are plastic and easily molded and shaped by different life experiences and different conditioning,and environments, and the fact that the sexes are born biologically more alike than different with very few differences but are still perceived and treated very differently systematically in every way by parents and other adult care givers, from the moment it’s learned they are a girl or a boy, before they are born it’s amazing that our brains are still more alike than different,and
      that we are psychologically more alike than different to despite all of this!) the clitoris and penis are very similar because they come from the same exact tissue, so does the male scrotum, the female vulva and even the ovaries and testicles.

      And men even have the same breast tissue that is responsive to estrogen and they can even develop full breasts ready for a bra right away if for some reason their testosterone level goes down,the small amount of estrogen(they also have progesterone which is necessary for healthy bone development,intelligence,healthy thyroid function,an anti-depressant, in both sexes and other things for health

      http://www.livestrong.com/article/290192-is-progesterone-produced-by-men/)

      Is Progesterone Produced by Men?

      http://www.livestrong.com

      Progesterone is commonly associated with many processes occurring in the female body. But just as testosterone and estrogen–each a male and female hormone, respectively–are present in both men and women, progesterone can also be found naturally in men, and it has some significant roles in male health, particularly reproductive vitality.

      that is normally in their bodies,causes this it’s a condition called gynecomastia. But of course none of all of these similarities are even recognized much less emphasized because we still all live in a very sexist,artificially gender divided,gender stereotyped,male dominated society that is totally obsessed and oriented to making the sexes into opposite artificial ”feminine” and ”masculine” categories.

  • -Jane Don’t-

    Ha! Awesome reply. I only took pre-calc, but I was always more comfortable around my female math teachers.

  • Maria_MacLachlan

    “it’s part of what makes you WHO you are” – as opposed to WHAT you are and what you are not?

  • M. Zoidberg

    >>”Here’s one heart-wrenching story of de-transition, including the loss of the cool trans kids’ support the moment one announces one’s de-transition.

    Wow, if it walks and talks and flocks like a cult…

  • M. Zoidberg

    >>”fully orgasmic and very functional vagina.

    You mean a wound that you have to keep forcing open, because otherwise it would heal up?

  • M. Zoidberg

    You copied and pasted this from…?

  • Christine

    Can you provide a source for the claim that gender is at all biological? The examples you provide fall under the category of sex, as I understand it. I’m no scientist, but do the experts call testosterone a “gender hormone” now? Thanks in advance.

  • Melanie

    You either are a particular sex or you aren’t. What does it mean to have an innate sense of being female when you’re a male?

    • M. Zoidberg

      It’s all based on sexist stereotypes. You always hear, “well, I was a boy who liked dolls — so I must be a lady!” or “I was a girl who liked monster trucks — I must be a dude.”

      The ONLY way they can define “gender identity” is through outdated, sexist stereotypes. It boggles the mind when you consider that’s the trans-cult’s main measuring stick — do I / did I play with dolls or trucks?

      I mean, with such a rigorous scientific method, I can’t understand for the life of me why people don’t just accept it all blindly. (/s)

  • Meghan Murphy

    Body dysphoria.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Scientists indeed have and do question the notion of innate ‘gender’ and ‘pink’ or ‘blue’ brains.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Intersex and trans are not the same thing.

  • Meghan Murphy

    What’s a ‘male identity’.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You’re a heterosexual male.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You may well suffer from body dysphoria/dysmorphia, but that doesn’t mean you have innate ‘gender’ or that there is such thing as ‘female identity’.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You *just* said you did experience a great deal of distress due to your dysphoria/dysmorphia, so in your case it seems clear you are suffering from a mental disorder.

  • Lin Haskins

    The link is to an article titled ‘Scans prove there’s no such thing as a ‘male’ or ‘female’ brain’. The main point of the article being ‘there is no such thing as a female or male brain, according to the first search for sex differences across the entire human brain.’

    This really does not support your point.

    • Melanie

      It also demonstrates that it depends on what the definition of a male and female brain is, not some innate maleness or femaleness within the brain.

  • Melanie

    So if it’s a feeling that you have about what sex you are, regardless of what sex you actually are, what constitutes this feeling? How do you feel male or female when you’re not male or female? What is it that makes your innate sense of your sex match your actual sex, or not?

  • Melanie

    If it doesn’t matter to me does that mean I’m not female? I’ll have to tell my gyno!

  • acommentator

    My thoughts are muddled. But the more I think about it, the more I think there is probably a lot going on with the whole trans thing. I doubt there is any simple, comprehensive explanation for it.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You thought your body parts were somehow ‘wrong’ and it distressed you. Your perception of your body did not align with reality. This would qualify as body dysphoria/dysmorphia. What you have is a mental illness. I’m sorry you struggle with this, but your internal struggles do not mean that others must lie to comfort you.

  • Meghan Murphy

    It’s not currently being debated by anyone except delusional people like you.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Gender is not a sex characteristic. It’s just a bunch of sexist ideas/stereotypes.

  • Meghan Murphy

    We don’t delete comments that include links, although sometimes if there are a lot of links Disqus automatically marks the comment as spam.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Because you’re delusional.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I was responding directly to *your* comment: “A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes
    significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not
    experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that
    identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. ”

    Fuck off with your trolling, please.

  • Meghan Murphy

    The existence of suffering in other people does not negate the oppression of another group. Just because you personally suffer does not mean women experience ‘privilege’ for having been born female. What a very, very stupid argument.

  • Meghan Murphy

    There is no such thing as gender identity.

  • Melanie

    In what what way did they express a male identity? What does that mean?

  • Melanie

    So now brain sex has nothing to do with gender identity? Why did you bring it up then? And what is it if it can be defined in different ways depending on the researcher?

  • Melanie

    Likewise the only people who can be women are females. Transgender people may feel dysphoria about their sex but there’s nothing ‘apparent’ about it. You’re either female or you aren’t.

  • Melanie

    What would that reason be? There’s a big difference between transplanting a womb into a female body that’s designed to have a womb and a male body that is not.

  • Melanie

    You must be able to explain what a male or female identity is if it’s a real thing. I think you posted that study once before. I read some of it and found that the researchers determined whether these children expressed a male or female identity based on social stereotypes, such as whether they played with dolls or preferred sport etc. This is really the only way you can explain gender identity – in terms of sex stereotypes and roles. I suspect this is why transgender people often avoid defining gender identity and just say they can’t explain it.

  • Well, Wakame, it is apparent that you are, quite understandably, wedded to the worldview you hold and therefore unable to engage in discussion. I would happily leave you to it, as I believe in letting people believe whatever they want. Unfortunately the worldview you ascribe to doesn’t just lead to the abuse of women as an unfortunate side-effect — it actually requires the abuse of women. The trans ideology requires the elimination of women’s boundaries, the elimination of any pretense that women have a right to with hold consent, plus the outlawing of lesbianism. You could just choose to heal instead, you know, from the mental illness that is gender dysphoria. Eventually, when enough women realize the trampling of women that must follow from trans ideology, things will change again. You will not be forgiven.

    • Let us talk together

      “Unfortunately the worldview you ascribe to doesn’t just lead to the abuse of women as an unfortunate side-effect — it actually requires the abuse of women. The trans ideology requires the elimination of women’s boundaries, the elimination of any pretense that women have a right to with hold consent, plus the outlawing of lesbianism. ”

      Could you explain the logic to that? I’m genuinely interested, not trolling or baiting.

      What I understand as “the trans ideology” referenced is the belief that some people of one biological sex can really “be” a different sex at the brain level; ie: a mismatch between body and brain; and I see that many do not think that mismatch has been scientifically established. @disqus_8c9jsWcXTU:disqus asserts that they want “0.6% more women” inside the protected boundaries, but not to destroy the boundaries.

      Are there other aspects of “trans ideology” which I missed, which are relevant here?

      I “get” that there is fear that allowing trans women into female bathrooms (or creating non-gender segregated bathrooms), or locker rooms, etc would lead to more assaults on women by trans women who are really men (or even just men with no gender dysphoria who are enabled to pretend without question to be trans women in order to prey on women). I can certainly see how this might be perceived as “eliminating women’s boundaries”.

      But I am honestly not yet seeing how the trans perspective leads to the other problems you fear – “requiring” the abuse of women, elimination of women’s right to withhold consent, or outlawing of lesbianism. So I’m respectfully asking.

  • FierceMild

    I have read it, but never seen it. If you find one link it!

  • M. Zoidberg

    Voluntary eunuchs are not lesbians.

  • M. Zoidberg

    >>”the mechanic at my local garage treats me like a complete idion(sic)

    He treats you like an idiot because you’re an idiot.

  • Minerva Conatus

    Turning a man’s penis inside-out and placing it in a surgically-created cavity is not “utilizing analogous soft tissues”. Males have no analogous soft tissues to the vagina. In utero, the duct that becomes the vagina in females is atrophied and unused in the male.

    You show us both your ignorance and your misogyny by insisting that there is no difference between the dry tube that trans-identified males may have created and a vagina.

  • Minerva Conatus

    The mind is extremely malleable.

  • M. Zoidberg

    Your cult perpetuates sexist stereotypes that harm women.

    Let me ask — what’s your opinion on Dolezal?

    As far as most black people are concerned, she’s an interloper who used a fake black identity to advance her career at the expense of actual black people. Sound familiar?

    This is something I’ve noticed in the TiM community as well: men who weren’t shit in their daily lives, are suddenly advancing their political / sports / entertainment careers by claiming to be women, using the affirmative action infrastructure to fuck-over and replace actual women who have struggled historically to be represented.

  • M. Zoidberg

    >>”it’s difficult, or impossible to describe

    I.e., total bullshit.

    I identify as a Westerosi dragon, a pine tree, and now, Tom Hiddleston’s character in Only Lovers Left Alive. I too identify as a suicidally depressed vampire rockstar.

    Oh no, there goes the table!

    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

    There goes another table!

    ┻━┻ ︵ (°□° )

    Seriously, I might as well just answer you in gibberish if you aren’t going to make any sense.

  • Meghan Murphy

    A fantasy that exists inside your head is not a fact.

    • Wakame

      “A fantasy that exists inside your head is not a fact.”

      Philosophically, that’s an interesting suggestion. A fantasy exists to the extent that the brain connection from which it is derived exist, but is doesn’t have an external reality.

      But again, I have no reason to believe you when you say that gender identity doesn’t exist. Your opinion as a gender critical feminists, is rather outweighed by the observations and conclusions of the doctors, scientists and psychologists who study gender identity. You certainly have the right to your opinion, and you are free to express it, but I find it unpersuasive.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Yo believe whatever you want. Just stop trying to force everyone else to play along.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t think gaslighting is polite.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You don’t get to change the meaning of a term in order to confuscate the debate. When we say gender, what we mean is the set of stereotypes imposed on people/assumed about people based on their sex. We will be moving forward in this conversation on that basis, or we will not be moving forward at all (which is clearly what you want).

  • Meghan Murphy

    If you told literally anyone that you were born female they would also believe you are delusional.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Women don’t have penises.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Because there’s no such thing.

  • Meghan Murphy

    NO ONE IS BORN ‘CIS’.

  • Virginia Howard

    “Shell” implies that brain function is seperate from the body. The Trans movement’s insistence on a sexed brain at odds with the body implies that the brain doesn’t correspond to the body.

    If it’s the mind that we’re talking about, then I can’t agree to the sexed mind. It’s a belief that has justified women’s subjugation throughout history. Biology, medicine and psychiatry are practices embedded in culture and have played a powerful role in limiting our sense of women’s full humanity.

    So it’s no wonder that feminists think that the sexed mind is a bad idea.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Insisting that you are female and always were female when you were born male is what I mean by ‘gaslighting.’

  • Meghan Murphy

    Do you know that we are feminists and on a feminist website and engaging with people who believe gender, under patriarchy, is harmful? Good. Then you also understand what we mean by ‘gender’.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Because you don’t live in reality.

  • Minerva Conatus

    You cannot quantify, measure, or verify what is “between people’s ears”. That’s a big problem.

  • Minerva Conatus

    You merely noted that you can’t give birth via the dry tube, and said that it gets dry (of course it does, because it cannot naturally lubricate or self-clean); you also said that not all vaginas give birth, and some vaginas get dry.

    There are more differences than those two, I assure you. Again, you’ve proven your ignorance by not knowing what they are.

  • Minerva Conatus

    They can also use sections of the large or small intestine, or a skin graft from the abdomen, thighs, or hips. None of those are similar to the tissue that actually lines a vagina.

  • Minerva Conatus

    The evidence that is currently available indicates that the majority of children who are seen for some sort of “Gender Identity Disorder” desist in adulthood; that is, their minds change.

    Conclusion: “As children with GID only rarely go on to have permanent transsexualism,
    irreversible physical interventions are clearly not indicated until
    after the individual’s psychosexual development ist [sic] complete. The
    identity-creating experiences of this phase of development should not be
    restricted by the use of LHRH analogues that prevent puberty.”

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2697020/#!po=45.0000

    Also, there now exists the phenomenon of “rapid onset gender dysphoria”, wherein teenage girls are identifying as trans after being exposed to strong messages on social media and YouTube, as well as peer pressure from friends. These girls suddenly had their minds changed, too–why?

  • Wren

    WTF Jazz Jennings has been on puberty blockers and estrogen for years. JFC it’s like something horrible happened to your brain.

  • Layla Alexandrovna

    According to Poison’s own comments, ‘they’ identify as non-binary (an even less coherent ‘identity’ than ‘trans’) and was born a woman. Also ‘they’ heavily object to ‘misgendering’ so I probably shouldn’t have used the word ‘woman’. Poison hates truscum, trans id’d individuals who say a person must experience ‘gender dysphoria’ to be trans. So this is a very special person hanging on the coattails of the trans narrative.

  • Christine

    Thank you, Wakame. I’ll certainly read that paper.

  • Melanie

    What you feel you should be born with and what you are born with are two different things. If you’re born with a body that isn’t designed to accomodate a womb, let alone a child – ie. a male body – then there’s no purpose to having a womb transplant. If your female identity resides in the brain then a womb transplant that serves no function is entirely unnecesary and pointless, so no I dont understand why a transwoman would have one.

  • Melanie

    The only reason that a transwoman would get a womb transplant that makes any sense to me is that they’ve objectified or fetishized female body parts and want to ‘get’ them, like buying a product off of a shelf. If ‘gender identity’ is what’s between the ears, not what’s between the legs there’s no other reason I can think of why they would go to such lengths to acquire non-functioning body parts.

  • Melanie

    What’s the difference between a male and an ‘apparent male’? How is an ‘apparent male’ able to become female?

  • Melanie

    So if a female identity is what makes them female there’s no need to transition. They’re already female right?

  • Poison Ivy

    You cannot see me

    • Meghan Murphy

      Have you lost your mind? Your comments here have become incoherent.

  • Poison Ivy

    Bread, bread

  • Poison Ivy

    I’m grounded and high

  • Poison Ivy

    Try my foot

  • Poison Ivy

    Google it.

    • Meghan Murphy

      lol this is an admission that you don’t have an answer… because trans -identified people have all the same rights anyone does.

  • Poison Ivy

    Same way it’s misogynist if you call a cis woman “dude”. Why are you supporting the centralization of male as default?

    • Meghan Murphy

      I call everyone ‘dude’. It’s just a casual way of speaking. Why are you incapable of answering anyone’s questions?

  • Meghan Murphy

    As if you’re a copy editor. You are barely literate.

  • Meghan Murphy

    lolllll you literally just claimed to be a copy editor, but you can’t spell ‘sweetie’? A misogynist, a liar, a crazy person, AND a moron. FUN!

  • Meghan Murphy

    There were five trans identified people murdered in Canada between 2008 and 2016 but ok.

  • Meghan Murphy

    How are you being discriminated against?

  • Meghan Murphy

    *boyfriend

  • Meghan Murphy

    Gender identity is an ideology, not a fact.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Go back to reddit.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You’re trying veeeery hard to get our attention, here though, aren’t ya

  • Meghan Murphy

    Then why did you say your ‘girlfriend’ has a penis, ‘lucky me’?

  • M. Zoidberg

    Not your sex either, dude.

  • M. Zoidberg

    Stupid little boys make me upset.

  • M. Zoidberg

    I haven’t heard anyone from your side condemning men’s violence or the rape industry.

    But women wanting to speaking publicly about OUR bodies and OUR experiences?
    (something you will never, ever, ever, ever experience because you are not a woman?)

    TERFS! BITCHES! KILL THEM! CUT THEIR THROATS!

    Still going to tra-la-la past all the above as though it isn’t real?

    Call yourself whatever the fuck you want. You reek of male entitlement just the same.

  • Melanie

    But what does that actually mean? In what way does gender identity match sex?

    • Poison Ivy

      You were assigned female at birth. You identify as a woman. It’s that simple.

  • Melanie

    You mean a male body.

  • Melanie

    It doesn’t change from male to female.

    • Poison Ivy

      Nope! Trans woman are born women, trans men are born men, enbies are born enby, etc. You can’t change into something you already are.

      • Meghan Murphy

        lol

  • Melanie

    Gender theory is not that hard to understand. It doesn’t take long to realize how illogical, nonsensical, sexist and regressive it is.

  • Melanie

    ‘Gender identities’ are meaningless if you can’t define what they are. You’re just demonstrating the point of this article.

  • Melanie

    The thing is that we don’t actually care. You can call me Barry if you like. It doesn’t change the fact that I’m female, and therefore a woman.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Nice try dumb dumb. You said it implying you were sexually into penises, then, moments later, say you’re asexual. You’re just a liar, is all.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I’m a woman because I’m female.

  • Omzig Online

    There is no objective, legal, or quantifiable difference between a “trans woman” and a man in a dress pretending to be a woman. That’s the whole fucking point, sir.

    And no, no one here blames black people for Rachel Dolezal’s bigotry, just like no one here blames women for the bigotry of trans-identified males. You made a pretty silly mistake bringing up Rachel Dolezal, as she only highlights to ridiculousness of “identities.”

  • Omzig Online

    Misspelled pet names don’t win debates, and they certainly don’t win public support, sir.

  • Omzig Online

    Worst straw man argument ever. Trans-identified males commit crimes at the same rate as any other male.

    Trans-identified male prisoners are definitely mentally ill and entitled to robust mental health care, just like any other man. What they are NOT entitled to are resources and private spaces that are designed for females. Male prisoners are a risk to females, and feminists not really concerned with coddling their sad, warped male egos.

  • Omzig Online

    “So few trans murderers”? You were just handed a list of murderers, rapists, pedophiles, and other disturbed criminals that were trans, and nearly all of them were male.

    In return, you just linked a shitload of articles about men that were found dead wearing women’s clothing. These deaths were already accounted for in the statistics that I provided you. You should note that every one of them was murdered by a male. They were not killed by a woman, and certainly not by a feminist.

    All you’ve managed to prove is that males are violent, which was my entire point to begin with. In fact, they are especially violent against other males. However, male violence is a problem that you and your male peers need to solve on your own, and you must do this while respecting female boundaries.

    Male violence against other males like yourself is a problem, but it’s not women’s problem. We’ve got enough on our plate as it is.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Where is this ‘genocide’ against trans-identified people taking place?

  • Cassandra

    They are wrong.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Literally nobody is opposed to trans identified people having rights. What are you talking about?

  • Christine

    I wasn’t clear: I don’t think that being trans means being unhappy, just that the person who identifies as trans usually describes their life before identifying as such as being unhappy… that’s what I mean about trans identity necessarily involving a problem. A personal, individual problem. Women, gays, and ethnic minorities share certain things in common with trans people, but for women, gays, and ethnic minorities, there is no inward-facing problem: the problems those oppressed people contend with are forces outside of themselves. (I hasten to add that, of course, trans people face discrimination,
    too.)

    I understand being trans is not a choice, in your view, and I’m far from certain that it is: I am not closed off from believing that it’s the best thing for some people. But I think the problem trans-identifying people address by coming out as trans could, in a lot of cases, be addressed more fundamentally by questioning their personal beliefs about gender and why gender is so meaningful to them.

  • Meghan Murphy

    DUDE. If you want ‘rights’, you have to explain what those ‘rights’ are and why you need them. How is it even possible to be this dumb?

  • Meghan Murphy

    You are insane. Actually go away now. Enough of this trolling/wasting women’s time.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Why does ‘coming out as your authentic self’ = getting tens of thousands of dollars of plastic surgery?

  • Hierophant2

    Not sure why you think accusing women of things they’ve never done, and then denying that you do those exact same things, is getting you anywhere. Have you ever heard of projection? Because you are a classic case.

    Women don’t kill transgender people. But transgender people want to kill women. And many have already.

    Fuck you for defending murderers.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “Rights” are not “personal,” they are political and social. You have not answered this question: what are the rights trans-identified people don’t have? Who is opposed to trans-identified people having rights?

    You clearly don’t have an answer, because you know these demands are empty. Thank you for demonstrating this so clearly.

  • acommentator

    “You say I’m delusional, the doctors, scientists and psychologists who study this phenomenon say I am not.”

    I don’t think that is really true. A woman is an adult human female. The doctors and scientists and psychologists do not believe you are an adult human female. They understand that you are, and always will be, sexually a male. If you are not delusional then you, too, accept that.

    What you don’t accept is that being a woman is a sex category. You want it to be about something else. But that is just playing with words. You want to change the definition of what a woman is in order to make it be about something other than sex.

    That is what makes this debate so Alice in Wonderland like. ‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’ ‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’ ‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.’

    (Apologies for quoting this on a feminist site, but I could not think of anything as good).

  • Melanie

    He’s very slippery with his arguments and use of language. Very skilled in the art of avoiding definitions and coherence.

  • Melanie

    If you choose to have treatment to ease your distress or dysphoria that’s not my business. But the treatment for gender dysphoria must be based on some concept of what it means to ‘identify as a man or woman’, or as neither. Doctors don’t just say “all of this means nothing but we’ll do it anyway”. You’re avoiding answering what ‘gender’ actually means because to do so would reveal that it’s based in sexist stereotypes about men and women, which does effect me and all other girls and women. Especially as these sexist ideas are being legitimized by medicine and law.

  • Melanie

    The reason you don’t have those organs is not because it’s not possible technology wise. It’s because you’re male. You can’t become female if you’re male.

  • foamreality

    The point is that all of those examples you mention have had BOTH negative and positive effects on people, society, ecology . The trans community (with exceptions) denies any negative effects exist from its ideology on wider society. Radical feminists recognize the positive effects of gender reassignment for trans people (and the negative effects on society) . Do the the ‘transfeminists’ recognize any negative effects on society? If it doesn’t understand that then how can it claim to have a solid analysis of what it is doing? Nearly everyone can see the side effects of all the other examples you mention. As for the LG comment, thats just plain wrong. Being gay may well be evolutionarily advantageous as many a people have theorized. Being gay isnt a technology. Transitioning with surgery is a technology. Secondly, any negative impact on society for being gay/lesbian is not one that interferes with biology or ecology, only culture, such as religious teachings. Trans ideology impacts on the physical lives of people, the ecology of the body, and womens place in society. Its a transition for the individual and for society. Being gay is just being.

  • foamreality

    Even if you were right, and I don’t think you are, why is this ‘biochemistry’ built out of testosterone the definition of your sex (or gender if you wish) , and not say , the large stack of erectile protein and vas deferens that makes the male genitalia? Male and females function different, thats how we know someone is intersex, because we can’t catagorise their genetalia. We could just not categorize anyone. Heres another: Aren’t cats at least partially human? After all, they have hair and eyes and ears, and testosterone. The whole ‘cats are a different species to humans’ thing pretty much falls apart, no?

  • foamreality

    if their behavior, their biochemistry, is why they are trans, why do they take things to change their behavior and biochemistry? Surely that would make them less like they were. But what they were is what made them think they were the the thing they are not. See Jensen is right. It doesn’t make any sense, even if we follow the sexist pseudo science being proposed as an explanation (which is nonsense anyway).

    • Viktor

      You make a strong point that I hadn’t considered. Thanks.

  • foamreality

    ‘Biochemistry’ which is every single component of the human body, makes us all distinct from one another. Yes gender is stupid, its defined only by what is perceived to be your genitals. . It doesnt matter what you define sex as long as you can come up with a way in which it does not reinforce gender stereotypes. Changing the definition, as Jensen points out, wont help us think about patriarchy.

  • Viktor

    I’m asking questions too – questions that I honestly don’t know the answer to.

    If you know the answers to your own questions, or to mine, then let’s hear them!

  • therealcie

    Funny thing, that.
    As a woman who has gone through menopause, I feel…
    Really, not significantly different than I did before.
    I’m still the same old crusty battleaxe that I was before menopause.
    Now, I have had some reversals in my health, but most of them have to do with my pancreas.
    I’m still me, though, just with a dead pancreas and now, a dead uterus. The thyroid died when I was 16, so I’m used to that.

  • Mint Tea

    In this ridiculous hypothetical situation you bring up, the fact is that the person is now female and identifies as male and perceives themselves as male. This person is therefore delusional, and when others point out the reality that they are male, they are ‘deeply damaged psychologically’. This person finds reality ‘deeply damaging’. This person has a mental problem that they need treatment for because of how reality distresses them.

    Unsurprisingly, you think it’s everyone else that needs to change, and you think it’s ‘completely unnecessary’ for others to acknowledge the reality of a person’s biological sex if that person has the delusion that they are the other sex.

    So in both the hypothetical and in real life, when someone unreasonably believes they are the other sex, or believes they basically have the ‘soul’ of the other sex, you think that their delusions should be treated as fact by others so as not to ‘psychologically damage’ them.

    I wonder, do you extend this insane ‘logic’ to people with other mental problems? Do you think that people should reassure narcissists that they are the most beautiful, the most intelligent, and better than everyone else and deserving of special treatment? After all, you wouldn’t want to deeply damage them psychologically by provoking narcissistic injury! Do you think we should tell people who are suicidal that their life is not worth living, and that they should drink bleach because things will never get better, just like their distorted thoughts tell them? Do you think we should tell a schizophrenic who believes they are Jesus that they really are Jesus, and reaffirm their delusion that they have magic powers?

    Or do you only think we should treat people’s delusions as fact when they call themselves transgender? When their delusion is that they are a different biological sex or have the ‘soul’ of that sex?

    Never mind, I know the answer. You, like all the other genderist nuts, know that ego-syntonic mental illnesses and the illogical thinking that comes along with them should not be affirmed by people, and you know that those people should be encouraged to seek treatment even if they think it’s everyone else who needs to change, not them. But when the mentally ill person is someone who thinks that they are the opposite sex, or that they have the ‘gender identity’ (you couldn’t even define this term cohesively!) of the opposite sex, you think others should accept those delusions as fact because it’s ‘deeply psychologically damaging’ to them and ‘unnecessary’ for others not to live their lives as though this person dictated what is true and what is not.

    EDIT: Necroposting. I didn’t realize how old these comments were, I saw this article linked on the front page so I assumed it was recent. I’m not sorry, though.

  • Mint Tea

    “In the past, boys born with cloacal exstrophy were given a “sex
    change” shortly after birth, effectively putting them in a female body.
    The majority of them express a male identity even though they have no
    idea that they weren’t born female.”

    Also LOL you don’t even know what a female body is. It isn’t the body of a boy who has received surgery to make his genitals resemble those of a females. Believe it or not, females have our own biology that can’t be ‘effectively’ replicated. You can surgically slice a male’s genitals to male a hole to stick a penis into, but that isn’t a vagina, it isn’t female biology.

    You are the Dunning-Kreuger Effect in action.

  • Honey Dubs

    Gross.

  • One to Nothing

    Halberstam writes that “top surgery” was “about editing some part of the femaleness that currently defined me.” Hmm, I had “half-top” surgery thanks to cancer, and it in no way “edited” my “femaleness.” On the contrary, having a scar where my breast used to me *is* “part of the femaleness that currently defines me.” Because, like, it’s usually women who get breast cancer (my father’s case notwithstanding) , and who are barraged by pink ribbons and exhortations to think of it as “positive” to protect others’ feelings.

    As far as “the art of becoming , the necessity of imagining, and the fleshy insistence of transitivity” (is this about parts of speech, or did Halberstam mean “transitoriness”? And maybe “fleshly”?)—-anyway, I guess Halberstam hasn’t noticed that all our “skin bags” (to use the Buddhist term) are always changing, and that one can “imagine” and “transit” (or whatever) without a surgeon’s assistance.

  • One to Nothing

    “Breast implants? Over above the use for survivors of breast cancer, there are more cosmetic procedures done every year on cis women than all the trans women that exist.”

    The point being . . . ? Trans women are few, and so we should not take trans women into account in our thinking? Does that apply in all instances? Shall we count how many trans people there are for every issue that arises and use the numbers to determine how important their concerns are? Or are trans women’s small numbers only important when a question about trans hegemony is raised? Women shouldn’t name their vaginas, because “not all women have vaginas,” but when we’re talking breast surgery, suddenly it’s “there aren’t that many trans women, so leave us out of it”? have I got it?

    Breast implants were developed for cosmetic reasons and were repurposed for cancer treatment, only after women fought to have them considered medically necessary as opposed to cosmetic. (And for some they may be.) Thanks to their original use, though, they cause pain for many women, in part because they are shaped like pornography breasts, not women’s actual bodies. And thanks to the focus on appearance more than health, they can actually damage health in various ways. There are many women who decline to have artificial breasts (of any of the several sorts available) *and* who are critical of the capitalist-misogynist medical practices that promote and normalize such surgeries—while still being sure that we do not disparage those who do have such surgeries. There are cosmetic surgery pushers, who are mainly interested in manipulating women’s bodies, who profit from extending out into cancer-initiated reconstruction. It would be great if these surgeries could address issues of posture and back discomfort caused by asymmetry without risking pain from “inflating,” infection from defects, distraction from healing to attend to appearance instead, and even the failure to notice more cancer because of the body being hidden behind an artificial body part, intended for appearance, not health.

    So, why the need to keep count of how many people from each identity category partake of these procedures? And I don’t imagine you intended to disparage healthy women with breasts who change their “architecture” with implants, did you? All women are women, after all. Aren’t we?