So long as men aren’t stepping up, women’s empathy needs limits

While everyone deserves love and compassion, women’s empathy towards troubled men happens too often at our expense.

Women, above all else, are meant to give. Give pleasure, care, food, children, endless nurturing, and domestic labour. We are to be selfless empaths, who understand and tolerate the pain and suffering of those around us. While of course none of these things are bad, in and of themselves — certainly empathy is something the world could use more of — these things hurt women.

It seems incredibly unfair to be punished for being tolerant or understanding — for putting up with bad behaviour because we know it comes from a place of suffering, but we are. We end up caught in a trap where we must become hardened in order to avoid being hurt once again by a pained man — punished for doing so by being accused of being too “tough” and cold-hearted — or absorb the emotional (or physical) blows dealt to us by sticking around and trying to support a “damaged” man. That women believe in the good in men — that they can change, that they can work through their trauma and emotional challenges, that they will stop hurting us — is of course an admirable quality, albeit one that does not serve us.

I have perpetually been unable to find a healthy balance between empathy and anger towards men. Sticking around to process men’s pain — pain that manifests itself in addiction, rage, violence, cheating, lying, “commitment issues,” or simple emotional distance — inevitably has led to my own suffering, trust issues, and, yes, sometimes rage.

Ironically, it is feminists who are consistently accused of hating men. I say this is ironic because feminists are in fact the ones who believe men are not inherently bad — that they can be good, that they can change, that they can choose respect and non-violence. Anger and hate are sometimes treated as one in the same, but they aren’t. Our anger often comes from disappointment, frustration, hurt, or betrayal — a desire for a different outcome or reality. But hatred is dehumanizing — it renders people one-dimensional.

In a 1983 speech, Andrea Dworkin — whose legacy will likely always be that of a raving man-hater, on account of her passion and penchant for telling the brutal truth — said:

“I came here today because I don’t believe that rape is inevitable or natural. If I did, I would have no reason to be here. If I did, my political practice would be different than it is. Have you ever wondered why we are not just in armed combat against you? It’s not because there’s a shortage of kitchen knives in this country. It is because we believe in your humanity, against all the evidence.”

Indeed, it’s strange to consider those who imagine a better world to be the extremists and lunatics, rather than those who believe men will rape and kill and brutalize and abuse for eternity.

Of course, the million dollar question is: why haven’t men changed yet? Why are men still abusing and killing and raping? Why do they actively refuse to change — refuse to question their approach to sex, to women, to relationships, to communication? While women are far from perfect, it must be acknowledged that we are constantly trying to change ourselves. We are going to therapy, reading self-help books, signing up for various new age seminars that promise to help us understand and address our spiritual and psychological flaws, and processing anything and everything with our female friends. We are meditating, doing yoga, going on every diet possible, reconstructing our faces, finding new exercise regimes, practicing non-violent communication and a myriad of other activities in our lifelong quest to fix ourselves.

We can see evidence of this in the way we date and break up: when our heterosexual relationships end, women ask themselves what they did wrong, and try to address their failures so they can be more successful the next go around. If a man doesn’t want a second date, we spend hours wondering where we went wrong: are we not pretty enough or thin enough? Are we too old? We question every comment, beating ourselves up for fucking up our chances at love, once again. Men, when rejected, blame women.

Incels — a group of men who identify as “involuntarily celibate” and have congregated online to commiserate about the lack of sex they are getting from desirable women by discussing how much they hate said women — are a glaring example of this pattern. They want “Stacys” (feminine, attractive women), but “Stacys” apparently only date “Chads” (attractive, masculine men who have sexual access to ample women), and despite hating “Beckys” (average, basic, decidedly unremarkable women), are still bitter even these subpar women won’t sleep with them. (To be fair, they hate all women, not just “Beckys” — they hate “Stacys,” too, on account of their supposed promiscuity and shallowness, as well as unattractive women.)

The incel rose to recent fame after it was revealed that Alek Minassian, who killed 10 people by driving a van down a busy street in Toronto last month, dreamed of an “Incel Rebellion” and idolized “Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger.” Rodger killed six people in a stabbing and shooting spree in Isla Vista, California, in May 2014, before killing himself. Rodger’s violence was, as he explained in a manifesto of sorts, driven by his anger at not having the sexual access to women he felt he deserved. “I am the true victim in all of this,” he explained. “I am the good guy.”

It is incredible that men can all at once despise women but still consider themselves “good men” who these awful women should sleep with. It also makes for a terrible conundrum. What is the solution?

Psychologist and professor, Jordan Peterson, who achieved a startling level of fame after refusing to refer to students as “zhe,” suggests “enforced monogamy.” In a New York Times profile, he tells journalist Nellie Bowles that Minassian “was angry at God because women were rejecting him,” adding, “The cure for that is enforced monogamy. That’s actually why monogamy emerges.” Bowles says Peterson tells her that, without enforced monogamy, “women will all only go for the most high-status men.” In a blog post, Peterson clarifies that what he actually means is not state-enforced monogamy, but “socially-promoted, culturally-inculcated monogamy.” He says the need for this is simple: “monogamous pair bonding makes men less violent.”

There are a couple of problems with this suggestion. One, the claim that monogamy discourages male violence is provably false. Every six days, a woman in Canada is killed by her intimate partner; in the US, three women are killed every day by current or former romantic partners; and one in three women will experience domestic violence, worldwide. Indeed, domestic violence is a leading cause of death for women between the ages of 16 and 44. Two, traditionally, what “monogamy” means is marriage. And marriage is something that benefits men much more than women.

Single women fare better than single men, in large part because of the emotional and domestic labour women provide in heterosexual relationships. Statistics show that men are not only emotionally and socially better off in marriages, but physically as well. This all makes a lot of sense, if you think about it, and explains why marriage originated as and remains a patriarchal institution.

Today, most women work outside of the home, but continue to do the bulk of the child rearing and domestic work, meaning men, in marriages, are able to continue to prioritize their own careers while women work double duty. Women are still taught, through socialization, to suffer for “the family,” to compromise, to try to work things out. We still feel we need to stick it out with emotionally deficient men who don’t contribute near the same levels of work in the home, never mind the emotional labour that goes into making a relationship work. It’s incredibly rare to hear a man suggesting couples therapy, for example, and far more common for a woman to have to cajole her partner into participating (and then, of course, do all the work of finding a therapist, making the appointments, etc.) We want to fix things, and men, too often, don’t want to do the work.

In other words, the solution offered to men’s unhappiness and suffering, according to incels and men like Peterson, is women’s unhappiness and suffering. Women’s liberation is a problem, not for women, but for men, because our liberation means we are no longer obligated to suffer for years in oppressive, unhappy, inegalitarian, or violent relationships. (We still stay, often, for a variety of reasons, but divorce — or simply not marrying at all — is much more accessible to many more women than in the past.)

Much ado was made about writer Junot Diaz’ piece in The New Yorker, detailing the ways his childhood trauma led him to treat women badly throughout his adult life. Despite the fact that he was atoning for his sins, as it were, many women online were unable to forgive.

While some might ask, frustrated, “What does it take? If men can’t be screwed up and make mistakes and feel bad and try to work to do better, what can they do to redeem themselves?”, I get where these women were coming from. We’ve all been through too much with too many men and been too sympathetic. We’ve stuck around with men who called us horrible names, who threatened us, who cheated and lied and raged and hit us. We’ve stuck around with men who refused to talk honestly and openly with us, who shouted us down or shut us out — who refused to be our friends, never mind our partners. We’ve been understanding and sympathetic to our own detriment, while too many men did nothing to change, despite our commitment, empathy, and belief that they could change — that they could be better.

An article published in Men’s Health last week, originally titled, For Many Men, Seeing a Sex Worker Isn’t About Sex — It’s About Therapy, talks to various “sex workers” about their own benevolence. A former stripper named Moriah Ella Mason tells Jessie Sage:

“The point of the bachelor party lap dance isn’t really about a sexualized encounter for the bachelor. It’s really about the bachelor’s friends showing their love for him and reassuring themselves that their friendship will still be important, even after he gets married.”

In other words, the strip club isn’t about objectifying women or cheating on your partner, it’s about male happiness and emotional comfort.

Sage writes:

“Mason says that for many men, going to a strip club wasn’t so much about seeing naked women, but about men performing a specific type of hyper-masculinity for each other and building a community with their friends.”

I mean, as if we didn’t already know what a central role misogyny plays in male bonding….

Stacey Swimme, a former escort who produces custom pornography for men online tells Sage that “many of her clients have viewed their time together as an opportunity to ‘be vulnerable and confess to me all of their fears and insecurities.'” Swimme says, “They started saying things to me like: ‘You are the only person in my life that I can say everything to.'”

Sage, who is a sex phone operator, says that the men who call her “after their wives and kids fall asleep” often want more than just phone sex. She says these men and lonely and wanting “connection.” It’s telling, though, that these men aren’t connecting with their partners — supposedly the people they are most committed to, and who are meant to be their primary and most intimate relationship. I very much doubt that a man who believes he can have a deep connection with a stranger he is paying to pretend to be sexually interested him is a very good partner, and I also very much doubt these men’s supposed loneliness is the fault of an absent wife.

Reframing men who use women to support their male egos and who disrespect and lie to their partners because they are emotionally damaged or deficient as victims only exacerbates the problem. Women are sympathizing themselves into a never-ending cycle wherein men are excused for being emotionally cruel or irresponsible (or worse) and women are expected to be their caretakers, for better or for worse. There is no incentive within this for men to change — to change the way they deal with their suffering, trauma, or “loneliness” — so long as women keep picking up the pieces.

While of course men deserve love and compassion, like anyone, it’s happening, too often, at our expense. And we are expected to grin and bear it — to provide an endless supply of empathy for these troubled men. I often wonder what would happen if women did actually become a little more “tough” and a little more “cold-hearted” towards these men, and focused that energy instead on being kinder and more generous with ourselves.

Meghan Murphy
Meghan Murphy

Founder & Editor

Meghan Murphy is a freelance writer and journalist. She has been podcasting and writing about feminism since 2010 and has published work in numerous national and international publications, including New Statesman, Vice, Al Jazeera, The Globe and Mail, I-D, Truthdig, and more. Meghan completed a Masters degree in the department of Gender, Sexuality and Women’s Studies at Simon Fraser University in 2012 and lives in Vancouver, B.C. with her dog.

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  • Meghan Murphy

    Fine by us!

  • Meghan Murphy

    So true. Therapists far too often treat both parties as equally responsible for ‘relationship problems,’ further enabling men’s entitlement, emotional irresponsibility, abuse, etc etc

    • Tinfoil the Hat

      When we were young and not yet married, my now-husband and I went to therapy to try and learn how to communicate more effectively.

      The therapist, a woman much older than we were, asked me if I didn’t think my (fashionable at the time) high-collared blouse intimidated my partner.

      We were both baffled.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Barf

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yes, some do believe men, by nature, are rapists/destructive, but I don’t believe that is a very common perspective among feminists.

    That said, even if there is some ‘natural’ drive to rape or drive towards violence, connected to evolution, I still am of the opinion that we can change the way men are socialized, in our society, to teach non-violence, respect, and emotional intelligence.

    • hello, hello.

      People, mostly women, have always asked and beg men to be be non-violent, respectful and empathic. What we can see is that men show extreme resistance and disregard it as much as they can, while lying that they are already “good enough”.
      I believe most mother have always taught their kids, both male and female, to be kind, non-violent and respectful, yet most men still turn out to be at the very least misogynistic and entitled… males, in general, do to women whatever they can get away with.
      Every single right women and girls have now has been earned by women. Males have always been against each one of them (the ones who seemed to be on women’s side were simply virtue signaling).

      I guess what I’m trying to say is, how can boys and men finally be taught to be what they have never been to begin with? How can they ever be motivated to change, if they couldn’t care less about the rest of us and feel satisfied and validated by patriarchy?

      • FierceMild

        “How can they ever be motivated to change, if they couldn’t care less about the rest of us and feel satisfied and validated by patriarchy?”

        I think the answer is that they don’t feel satisfied with Patriarchy anymore. It’s still in full swing, but it’s really hard to walk through the world believing it to be just. It gives a nameless twitch of discomfort to men which they react to by flinging themselves upon the dick *ahem* I mean feet of Jordan Petersons for validation. The spell of comfort has been broken. Next comes breaking ignorance.

  • Meghan Murphy

    No, you are not correct that that is my premise.

    And good lord I’m not basing my political views (only) on a ‘small subculture of outcasts’!! I’m talking very much about my personal experiences with men as well — boyfriends, men I’ve dated, family members, etc.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Thanks Robert! Glad you liked the piece.

    • Robert Gonzalez

      Thank YOU. I love your work <3

  • Meghan Murphy

    Thanks Jen!

  • Ada

    Good for you, better late then never.

  • Deborah

    This is a great article, and very timely, as I have recently decided to remove myself from intimate relationships with men. I prefer living life on my own terms, and singlehood no longer bothers me, although my entire youth has been consumed with this idea of having to “find the man” and “wouldn’t it be great it to be married?” But the truth is, men have been a HUGE disappointment for me, thus far. I am financially independent and my vibrator is better than any man, because they’ve ALL been selfish and miserable in that regard. In short, I don’t need them, and given how 99% of men under 45 years are hopelessly addicted to porn, and how many refuse to be better people, forget them! They have brought nothing into my life but disfunction and selfishness.

    But I agree, if women truly hated men, we’d kill them in statically high amounts and fantasize about torturing them…

    As a society, we hold the bar very low for males. As a result, they don’t feel any need to measure up to the expectations of women, only the expectations of other men. They don’t give a shit about what we think or feel. And when we voice our frustration, anger or needs, they see us as belittling them, their fragile egos shrivel up and they go looking for whatever feminine source might make them feel less like a loser and more like a “man” (i.e. a paid sex worker, an affair with a very young female, etc)., all the while not having the slightest idea about what constitutes being a real man, and not man-child.

  • Lavender

    Great points. I know we need to get these things off our chests and it’s all easier said than done, but women need to make sound choices for themselves. Venting is crucial to recovery but feminism is so much more than understanding how deep men’s hatred goes. It takes a while to process it, so if this is where you are now, know that it gets better. Female liberation is dependent on our willingness to reject femininity and reject men. It’s probably going to suck, and some women truly can’t afford to do this. But most can, and we need to be brave because the alternative is unsustainable and it’s killing and hurting girls and young women. Who will they look up to? On the other side of that wall is a beautiful world where women focus on each other and forge a future on their own terms, not one that’s defined in opposition to all things masculine. Gender is constantly trying to guilt us and suck us back into the system. Men have convinced us that we need them and that we must placate them. The more time we spend away from men, the less energy they take and the easier it is to be woman-centred.

    • nap1367

      Agree, I’ve been thinking about this article all day and if/how I would respond. I am 50 years old and it took me this long to really get it. I am finished with men. They have done nothing but harm me emotionally, psychologically and physically to varying degrees my entire life, starting with my father, while I have spent my life giving them love, support and understanding. The last one I was involved with killed something in me I will never recover. I truly believe they enjoy harming us. There is no other explanation.

      The only times I feel peaceful and emotionally well are when I don’t have to deal with them professionally or personally. The solution is to stay away from them as much as possible. It is surreal to come to this realization at my age and I am sad for the years I wasted and the damage I sustained trying to make relationships with men work. Never again.

  • Robert Gonzalez

    What was your role in the sex industry? I didn’t fully understand that part. Were you a sex worker?

    “Unlike women (who probably respond best to education and therapy and poorly to punishment), men respond best to a combination of education, therapy, and punishment.” What do you base this astute understanding of male and female psychology on?

    • Adam Jozef

      Hmmm… Why did you have to ask me that?

      Somehow the name ‘sex worker’ sounds strange to me. Even ‘gigolo’ sounds strange to me. But yeah, as much as I absolutely hate to apply those terms to myself, even if only to my past, yeah, I guess either ‘prostitute’ or, more precisely, ‘gigolo’ works, or maybe ‘provider,’ whichever you prefer. No one ever used either term though. We always euphemistically referred to me as a ‘date’, a ‘romance,’ or a ‘masseur,’ euphemistic word choices which suggest that deep down inside, we knew what we were doing was harming us both, but yeah, prostitute or gigolo fit the bill.

      As for my views about male and female psychology, I could be wrong, but it’s based on my interactions with women and my lack of interaction with the law. I was in the trade for around ten years, first to feed and house myself and then to feed a few addictions. Believe it or not, even the pleasure of the sex, the easy money, the ego validation that come with payment and a big tip (presumably to try to clear their conscience but which only made it more addictive for me and so more difficult for me to leave) themselves could become addictive in their own right. Don’t confuse pleasure with enjoyment though. Pleasure is only the physical sensation of the experience, enjoyment the emotional, intellectual, and spiritual parts. I did not enjoy the work at all, but addiction kept me in it, and not just addiction to the thrill of the experience and the easy money but to alcohol and later gambling and the internet too to cope with depression.

      My experiences force me to reject the feminist premise of the Swedish model because it helps only the buyer leave the industry with little concern for helping the provider leave it too. Don’t get me wrong: I think we should help the buyer. I just think we should help the provider too. That’s why I think we might need different laws for male providers, female buyers, female providers, and male buyers, because the circumstances of a female buyer are quite different from those of a male buyer, and those of a male provider are quite different from those of a female provider. That’s why we might genuinely need different laws for each category.

      As strange as it might sound from a woman’s perspective, making it a misdemeanor for a male provider to sell sex could actually help him more than any woman could understand, and so to attack any proposal to make the selling of sex by a man a misdemeanor and to push to totally decriminalize the selling of sex by men actually hurts male providers, and I’ll explain why.

      A man does not usually enter the sex trade at least as a provider (and I presume as a buyer too based on my observations of my dates even if they were women) unless he suffers some kind of trauma, or (more specifically for a provider) is trafficked or already suffers some kind of trauma combined with extreme poverty or destitution or some kind of addiction. Furthermore, at least for a man, the pleasure of the sex, the thrill of the encounter, the easy money, and the ego validation can themselves become quite addictive times four. As a result, it makes it extremely difficult for him to leave the trade without some kind of counterbalancing deterrent to it. To simply totally decriminalize the selling of sex by a man just makes it more difficult for him to break his addictions, and not just the addictions to the trade itself but to alcohol, gambling, and everything else that the easy money from the trade enables and that participation in the trade aggravates as a result of the depression that participation in the trade causes. So that’s addiction times seven. Participating in the addictions (including selling sex) numbs the emotions and so makes life manageable even though the high of the act is always followed by an ever deeper emotional abyss along a vicious cycle. To stop the addictions could benefit him in the long run, assuming he doesn’t commit suicide in the withdrawal period from the sex, the easy money, the alcohol, and the gambling (since he won’t have as much money for it) in the first year after quitting as the rawest of emotions that he doesn’t want to feel slowly return with a vengeance. To quit acting out the behaviours threw me in the deepest low for around a year as my emotions slowly returned. Trust me, quitting seven different addictions at once, all cold turkey, isn’t easy and I really, really wanted to return to the trade just to escape the ever darker reaches that my mind was taking me to even though I knew that it was those very behaviours that were causing my ever deeper depression over the long term. Definitely for a male provider at least, prohibition can provide some of the deterrent he needs.

      Even making the selling of sex by a man a misdemeanor would have limited benefits. Firstly, if he’s poor, a judge would have no choice but to reduce or even waive the fine out of compassion, which would thus provide no deterrent there. But at least in theory, it could deter him once he’d gained more wealth high enough above the poverty line to make the risk of a fine a more serious threat to him.

      Of course another problem is that the police don’t bother with us. In my whole ten years, I’d never encountered a police officer on the job even once, and i advertised openly on a site that the FBI recently raided. Even now I doubt that the police bother with female buyers, so why would they then bother with male providers? Clearly police resources are just way too stretched.

      I’ll brainstorm another possible solution here. Another solution I could see would be to create a closed system. For example, while buying sex by a man would be illegal under any circumstance, buying sex from a man by a woman would be legal as long as the man applies for a prostitution business license. the man could face a misdemeanor offence for working without a license. If that man puts himself on a voluntary five-year irrevocable list that would ban him from acquiring such a license, then it would make it a misdemeanor for him to sell it without a license and that would make it a misdemeanor for anyone else to buy it from him. We could then allow only those with a license access to and post sex ads for themselves on a registered hookup site on which only those not on the list could register. That would mean that a male provider who’s trying to leave the trade could put himself on such a list which in turn would block him from getting the necessary license and accessing the only site on which he could legally advertise his services even if he could legally sell them. Since putting himself on the list would also put a female buyer at risk of facing a charge of incitement since she’d be encouraging him to commit a misdemeanor would deter her from buying his services too especially when she could buy sexual services legally on the registered site from a man with a license.

      This would mean that a woman who wanted to buy sex could register an account on the registered hookup site and then buy all the sex she wanted from any man on the site. If he was on the list, he’d be removed and banned from the site, so by implication, any man advertising on the site would be legal to her.

      If she buys sex from a man without a license, then they could both face a fine, her for incitement and him for selling sex as he would have voluntarily banned himself from it. Since a man not on the list could freely advertise himself on that site, then any man who advertises himself anywhere but on that site would immediately raise red flags for the police to investigate along with any woman who buys services from him. This would provide a deterrent for any woman from buying sex from a man without a license. she could easily know his status just by asking to see his license. No license, no business. this would mean that any man trying to leave the trade could make himself toxic to any potential seller by putting himself on the irrevocable five-year list which would greatly help him to leave the trade by quickly drying up his business. Also, selling his ‘time’ should be banned too. We all know that legal loophole, don’t we.

      This would make the police’s work easier too. Rather than stretch their resources trying to catch every buyer, they could then focus on only male buyers (since I do believe that buying sex by a man should be at least a misdemeanor) (which is already the case anyway in practical terms regardless of what the law says), females who buy sex from an unlicensed male, and unlicensed males who sell sex. This would not reduce the burden on the police by much, but given how stretched their resources presently are, we might as well legalize the buying of sex by women as long as it’s from licensed men and ban men who put themselves on a list to deter women from buying from them.

      Perhaps the only caveat might be to increase the punishment for a woman who buys sex from an unlicensed male on the grounds that she would have fewer excuses given how she could have bought sex from a licensed male.

  • Liz

    What fantasy world do you live in? Oh wait the porn one that includes the redpill forums

  • Liz

    Men created marriage. They wrote the contract.

  • Wren

    Men’s groups like MRAs?

    Jordan Peterson’s premise is that men rise and women sink back into baby-making and kitchen duty. Of course that sounds like improvement to men!! Did you read the NY Times article?? Did you even read this article??? Did you read the statistics about DV?? On rape?? DO YOU KNOW THAT EVERY WOMAN I KNOW HAS BEEN RAPED AT LEAST ONCE???

    Really, tell us how it’s soooooo much better cause you see some dad’s with fucking strollers.

    • Gundog

      Quite the list of non-sequitur there.
      1. Nope, just non-denominational men’s groups focused on making men better.
      2. Nope, that’s not his premise. That’s what you want his premise to be so you have a scapegoat.
      3. The statistics are that DV and violent crime are decreasing. Are you arguing that they are not?

      Oh, and if you base an argument on anecdotal evidence, don’t be surprised when it is refuted with anecdotal evidence.

      • Wren

        1. MRAs are non-denominational, so…
        2. Peterson is a misogynist. That’s why incels and MRAs like him. Apparently you want his premise to be something else.
        3. The rates of violence against men are falling, but it is not conclusive regarding men’s violence against women:
        https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jan/13/hidden-rise-violent-crime-growth-violence-against-women

        My post only seems like a non-sequitur if you didn’t read the NY Time article referenced on Peterson, and if you didn’t read Meghan’s article. So again, did you read anything??

        And I did not base my argument on anecdotal evidence, I used it to corroborate evidence.

        It seems like you have difficulty following along, but then again, you have your own agenda and bias.

        • Gundog

          I read both. The NY Times article was the written version of that ridiculous Cathy Newman interview. It was completely devoid of fact. Watch one his long form interviews with a semi-neutral party. The hype over him is just so overblown.

      • Deborah

        “Oh, and if you base an argument on anecdotal evidence, don’t be surprised when it is refuted with anecdotal evidence.”

        But your anecdotal evidence does not make our anecdotal evidence cease to exist. The tone and implication of your original comment sounds as if you believe your “perceptions” should make our experiences null and void.

    • Kiwipally

      Yep, if most women who are raped and sexually assaulted never report their rapes or sexual assaults, how can one possibly state – as Gundog does – that domestic violence and violent crime are decreasing? It’s almost like he pulls facts out of his arse.

    • susannunes

      The 1950s will never, ever happen again. It is dead, and thank God it is. I shudder at what fucking blue-collar creep I’d have ended up with (my parents didn’t think I was good enough to have a white-collar or professional dude) if my mother had had her way and pushed me out of the house while still in my teens.

  • Wren

    Lundy Bancroft (if you’ve never heard of him) is an expert on abusive men, and he thinks therapy is a terrible idea. I have my own thoughts on therapy being a tool to brainwash women (mostly I agree), but I think men use therapy to cull mind-controlling techniques to use against women. I suggest reading Bancroft or watching his videos.

    And you are brave and have our support!!

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yeah, i don’t really think most women care if a man is in great shape or not.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Aren’t you a man? I assumed. In which case it makes sense you would not understand my perspectivev.

    I’m not talking about men who play video games and ‘act like frat boys’!! God. As if I would date a dude who plays video games and acts like a frat boy. I’m talking about regular, ‘nice’ men. I know a lot of men and have dated a lot of men and the way you talk about them makes me thinks you don’t get out of the house much.

    • Wren

      His takeaway is that patriarchy is “all in our heads.” It’s belittling and disrespectful, but he “loves the site”!! (how patronizing).

      • Gundog

        Patriarchy as in society where the man is typically head of a heterosexual couple exists. Patriarchy used in modern discourse as a nefarious, intentional, world wide oppression of women based on some ingrained fear or hatred or power or whatever is silly. Modern society grew out of biological and nature imposed roles and orders. Further, I hold that a freedom based, capitalist approach will bring greater equality and progress than state imposed socialism and moral policing.

    • Gundog

      It makes me thinks you are really bad at choosing people to hang out with. It’s like when the MRA types complain all women are lying, gold digging, etc., my first reaction is why are you hanging out with them? I have a ton of awesome female friends that don’t live up to the MRA stereotype.

      I realized long ago I will never understand a woman’s perspective. Just the other day, I was clearing off an old hard drive and found my 15 year old paper I wrote for college on why a man can never be a feminist (I also got a B on a paper on why Le Tigre is awesome). But I can let you know that how you think men think is not the way men think. I know. I am a man.

      • Meghan Murphy

        THEY AREN’T MRAS, DUDE. I’m talking about regular men. Regular, fun, nice, interesting, attractive men. But men who are socialized AS MEN.

        • Gundog

          I know who you are talking about. I was making an analogy of your stereotypes of the typical man to MRA’s stereotypes of the typical woman. I’m saying both you and them are bad at choosing people to hang out with because most people don’t live up to either stereotype.

          • Meghan Murphy

            Except I spend time with plenty of men who would fit into the category you believe to be ‘good men’ and ‘good fathers.’ You just seem to believe in a dichotomy that doesn’t exist and deny that men are socialized in a particular way under patriarchy, meaning that even the ‘good men’ are affected.

      • Robert Gonzalez

        “I am surrounded by successful, hard working men who are now capable, equally contributing husbands and fathers. I’d say of all the married couples that I know, the husbands do the majority of the cooking. Like, I have one friend who plays video games. I’ve never seen my friends act like awful frat-boys, in fact we’ve made sure to get women friends home safe many a night. Additionally, I don’t know anybody who feels themselves entitled to anything in life. The message we have received since childhood was that life wasn’t going to hand you anything so you had to work for it – maybe it was the East Coast protestant immigrant influence.”

        Roughly translated: Hurr durr Ima typical bland male that is friends with other entitled ass bland males that do the bare minimum as human parents and husbands. We iz gr8 menz. Hurr wat dunt u understandz, womenz? Be happy with wat u got an stop ur bitchn. U mus b crayzee.

    • Tinfoil the Hat

      Yeah but he gave you his permission to keep writing, Meghan. Keep it up! Now you can go on living.

  • Wren

    Yuuuup.

  • Wren

    Name-dropping Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan sure as fuck doesn’t help your point.”
    Lmao.
    At this point I don’t think Gundog actually reads any of the articles. I think he’s just trolling.

    • Robert Gonzalez

      Hahaha! Uh, yep.

  • andrea

    Oh you saw dads with their kids. Wow lets give them clap. Someone saw men with heir kids one day let give men a round of applause for low standards. That doesn’t erase the fact that women raise their kids, cook, clean, emotional labor ect.. a lot more then men.

    • Gundog

      Nobody asked for any gratitude. The point is that just as women currently doing more doesn’t erase the fact that men’s participation is increasing and men are doing more. In other words a free, capitalistic system is currently solving the imbalance. A socialist/marxist state enforcement system will not solve those problems.

      • Robert Gonzalez

        It isn’t solving shit, Gundog. Again, what fucking fantasy world are you currently occupying? Did you phase-shift in from some parallel universe? I want to go back with you!!!!

        Seriously, capitalism is the engine currently driving the destruction of our entire planet. Sure, it has its perks and advantages, but everything comes at a price. Much of what capitalism currently exploits includes disadvantaged groups (including women). No one is talking about Marxist enforcement, Gunny.

    • AnotherOor

      Funny how 1 man with his kid is somehow “more” than all the women with kids in some people’s heads.

  • Eldalis Orlamonde

    “I often wonder what would happen if women did actually become a little more “tough” and a little more “cold-hearted” towards these men, and focused that energy instead on being kinder and more generous with ourselves.”

    What would happen? They would be treated as cold ungrateful bitches by society.
    No kidding, that’s overall what men (sometimes women) reproached me all my life (and I’m still a student so imagine later). Even before becoming a feminist, I sort of had a low level of respect towards people that don’t show any respect to begin with. I don’t care about couple and stuff (and I grew up with older male family members so let’s say I didn’t have big expectations about men anyway). I was always reproached to look cold, distant, snob and not smiling enough just because of my face and bc I basically don’t worship them. And there were just regular people, not those crazy misogynists and women haters.
    Basically, whatever you do in that society, once you’re a woman, you’re always wrong. It’s even worse when you’re actually a woman with an opinion.

  • But Megan I think you are painting too bright a picture of women here, as if we all try to help men change because we believe in them and we have such depths of compassion and empathy. A lot of what you describe women doing for men is done from very flawed motives. Our empathy is often, if not usually, learned hyper-vigilance. We’ve been taught we need to register men’s emotions so that we can begin our emotional labour for them before they realize they need it. And a lot of what women do is more properly called “enabling”. Like the wife (usually) of the alcoholic, who makes excuses for him and calls his boss to say he’s sick when he’s actually hungover, we bolster our egos by taking on these functions. I don’t believe we need to harden ourselves. I believe we need better boundaries — we need to realize we can’t love anyone else if we don’t love ourselves, we can’t take care of others if we can’t take care of ourselves, we can’t believe in others if we can’t believe in ourselves. We need to centre ourselves in our own lives. And that is not selfishness.

    • Meghan Murphy

      I think you’re right that LOTS of women enable men in various ways. It drives me nuts and I wish they would stop. But I also think that when women have healthy boundaries they are treated as/accused of being ‘mean’ and ‘cold.’ I have lots of direct experience with that one… Same thing goes for centering ourselves in our own lives.

    • Alienigena

      “A lot of what you describe women doing for men is done from very flawed motives.”

      I think the motive is survival. Sometimes physical, sometimes fear of destitution in the case of women with children. When I re-evaluate my childhood I think most of what I did was to survive my father’s violence (emotional and physical), although I have come to see my entire family as a bit of a freak fest (in terms of their willingness to collude with my father). At this point I would be fine with luring men to their deaths. Unfortunately, I am not a criminal mastermind so that is likely a project I will not be pursuing. In addition, I don’t really want to spend my life thinking about men, including thinking about how to dispose of them. Other things to do.

  • Alienigena

    I just read a headline on CBC’s website entitled “Wolves adjust sleeping habits to avoid human contact, research suggests”. I am feeling sympathy for the wolves and am thinking about all the things I do to avoid contact with males and frankly humans.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/carnivores-alter-behaviour-research-1.4672383

  • Gundog

    Men go to the gym for any number of reasons – themselves, women, and other men. We go to the gym, exercise, and play sports for both physical and mental health.

    I’m not going to argue obvious mischaracterizations about people when presented with no evidence. I’ve listened to enough of both to know you are wrong.

    Most importantly men are not getting more violent. All the statistics back me up on this. You just think there are more reports because of the internet echo chamber.

    I come here because I believe the radical persuasion are great at identifying real problems. I just believe the marxist interpretation and solution are wrong.

  • Blazing Fire

    Peterson’s “socially-promoted, culturally-inculcated monogamy” can’t be anything but shaming, smearing (with imaginary sleazy tales) & harassing single women or divorced women, underpaying women even more so that they are forced to get married & stay married to just survive & just to be able to walk around in the “(mono)gamy enforcing” society.

    And a darn good tweet I saw said:

    “If there’s one thing raising chickens has taught me it is that if the males are violent because they’re not getting enough sex, the solution is not “enforced monogamy,” it is to kill them and eat them. ”

    (https://mobile.twitter.com/lemay/status/997635873620484096)

    That was one of the most down-to-earth, commonsense-filled comment made on the topic. (The old ‘notallmen’ers, ‘not-a-nice-way’ers in that thread obviously are too dumb to note that she was talking only about the males that get violent due to alleged lack of coitus)

    ——–

    And, here:

    >> “Mason says that for many men, going to a strip club wasn’t so much about seeing naked women, but about men performing a specific type of hyper-masculinity for each other

    >> “many of her clients have viewed their time together as an opportunity to ‘be vulnerable and confess to me all of their fears and insecurities.’”

    If it was NOT about seeing naked women (and was only about “therapy”), then why ARE they watching them naked? They can just say, “we came for therapy/masculinity-performance, not to see u naked. So u can take a break & cover up for now”, right? If it was all about “being vulnerable”, then why demand that they provide you with, er, “intimate service”? Why not just spend that time doing more “confessing fears & insecurities”??
    I call this bollocks. These mouth-pieces aren’t real prostituted women, but just managers making money off those women’s lives, bodies & dignity.

  • Gundog

    So any improvement you have done in your life has been at the expense of others? Where is your proof that men do this? And why is just doing something for yourself bullshit and self-centered? Do you call all those women on Eat Pray Love journeys bullshit and self-centered?

    You spit out broad generalizations with no support. If you actually investigated dudes like Peterson instead of just regurgitating mischaracterizations, you would see that one of his tenets is that you have to fix yourself before you can fix other things. The goal is literally to better society by bettering yourself.

    • Robert Gonzalez

      It’s common knowledge (people joke about it) that many men are motivated by self-help books because they think it’ll get them more sex, especially when it’s younger men. Fitness is huge with teen and adult men and nearly always takes on a narcissistic, self-absorbed tone. It doesn’t take much searching or lurking on the internet to validate that. Are you going to ignore the vast selections of male-specific self-help literature that promote the abuse and usage of women for getting laid (e.g. pick-up artist literature)? Male culture is focused on using women for sex or focused on getting more money. It’s a cesspool of over-the-top masculinity and narcissism. What sort of proof are you looking for, exactly? Does anyone even keep stats on that shit? We’re in a fucking Patriarchy. I wonder if you actually believe we have achieved perfect equality between the sexes. I’m not sure what you want me to do here, Gunny boy. There’s plenty of proof that femicide and rape are overwhelmingly committed by men. There’s plenty of cultural evidence that men objectify women. What fucking sheltered life have you been living in? Are you in a cult on some isolated property and not telling me?
      Do you just ignore popular media? It’s those good ol’ Protestant values, methinks, am I right!?

      The truth is that you do see this shit, you just don’t recognize it for what it is. You’re viewing life through your cushy male privilege lenses. You have no reason to question it because it doesn’t benefit you to think outside that box. I’m saying that when most women do ANYTHING (self-help included) that they feel an overwhelming societal pressure to be altruistic, giving and empathetic about anything they choose to do about themselves. I already said that, but apparently I needed to say it again.

      You accuse me of “spitting out broad generalizations” and then constantly attempt to do the same thing with zero evidence to back yourself up with. What’s the point in asking me to stop and provide you evidence if you never do the same? The burden is on you because you’re in a feminist space. This site is dedicated to radical feminism. What do you expect? These people already know their shit. You’re not talking to newborns here. Also, many of the commenters have noticed that you don’t even appear to be fully reading what’s posted here. How about you try that?

      What regurgitated mischaracterizations? Can you be specific? Here’s something specific about your beloved Peterson: his bullshit about lobsters. What the fuck is that about? I take biology seriously — I would think a psychologist like him would too — and none of that shit he has extrapolated into human behavior has any real validity. He thinks that human posture is somehow linked to lobsters and their serotonin levels. Bull. Fucking. Shit. He’s not a crustaceologist or even a biologist. And human beings and the hierarchies we’ve established are vastly more complex than he wants to admit. He believes that there’s a biologically established hierarchy with human beings and that’s especially where he clashes with feminists. He believes that “patriarchy” is a natural development of our species and that White privilege is not a thing. And sorry, Gunny, if you think that patriarchy is not a thing and White privilege isn’t real, then I really don’t have much else to say to you. You’re too far gone. TLDR; Jordan Peterson says shit my grandfather says and repackages it for basement-dwelling neckbearders on 4chan to consume and pay him money for. His political views are usually bullshit. He’s not that smart. He’s full of himself.

      Unlike you, I actually research shit before I speak. I regularly watch shit from the manosphere, red-pilling culture, Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, etc. I want to hear both sides. I’ve seen Peterson’s lectures, Gunny. I didn’t just read a New York Times article and decide I knew everything about him. And if you need a man to tell you more about feminism, at least try reading Robert Jensen.

  • Hekate Jayne

    You say:
    “…..many reproductive laws apply only to women or only to men due to physiological differences and the constitution accepts that.”

    To which I respond: What the fuck are you even talking about? What “reproductive laws” are males subject To?

    Are males in jail for making decisions about their own body? How many fucking males die every day in the states from reproduction? Three of us die, btw.

    Also, what laws force males to reproduce?

    Also, too, the society that you are talking about as if it is some neutral, equitable place is PATRIARCHY.

    And that section that Robert asked about sounds a whole lot like gendered brain.

    What is it with people coming in here lately, and speaking about prostitution as if it isn’t majority males buying and selling women? And implying that women buy and sell males At almost the same rate?

    It looks like a purposeful spreading of misinformation in an attempt to shield the unavoidable factual reality that is males benefiting from prostitution from all angles. It’s annoyingly transparent. But you won’t let that stop you, so carry on.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yeah you’re just ‘mean,’ and ‘cold’, ‘not loving’, too independent, etc etc whine whine.

  • Meghan Murphy

    For sure. Refusing to be in co-dependent relationships with men gets you criticized from all angles — from the men you date to your female friends, who have confused co-dependence with love. It’s so tough to stick to your guns on this stuff…

  • Rye

    Why haven’t men changed? Because we see that women only care about equality when it benefits them. So why, then, should we do our part? And some of us even believe that the logical consequence of Feminism will be a polygynous dystopia, because polygyny is what they believe women want. That’s what Jordan Peterson believes to some degree, and that’s why he suggested enforced monogamy.

    But if we want to envision a better world, I suggest looking at Sweden. You radical feminists apparently look to Sweden as a model of progress, and so do I. In fact, I believe that Swedish women treat their men better than anywhere else in the world.

    In Sweden:
    1. Swedes typically have sex first, they decide if they want to do other things together later.
    2. Women are expected to split the bill on “dates.”
    3. There is no man chases woman, woman holds back crap.
    4. A man’s income is much less of a factor on whether a woman decides to sleep with him.
    5. Women approach men relatively just as often as men approach women.
    6. Marriage is losing popularity in Sweden, and the average Swedish wedding is cheap.
    7. Even in Stockholm, you have to go through great effort to find the cards, flowers, candy, and other Valentine’s Day garbage on the shelves. For most Swedish couples who celebrate Valentine’s Day, it’s just an excuse to go out together.

    Moreover, Sweden’s welfare system and lower income inequality helps a lot to create such conditions. So does Sweden’s culture. For example, Swedes don’t typically show off and it can be hard to tell who’s better off than you. This benefits men immensely, because it’s the “penis measuring” contest to attract women that creates a lot of misery for men in other countries.

    In conclusion, Swedish men have a fantastic deal. Maybe part of the reason they are doing more in their relationships with women is because Feminism has been good to them?

    • Meghan Murphy

      Your list of things that you say happen in Sweden is great. Is this supposed to dissuade us? Like, I either do all of this already or support it.

  • susannunes

    That survey is nonsense because if people have that attitude, they need to be in the real world. More and more men are going to wind up without partners because they have shitty attitudes just like JP. Women aren’t going to be fucktoys, incubators, and little housewives anymore. They haven’t been that way for DECADES. The economy won’t allow it. Women won’t stand for that crap anymore. I am glad I outgrew that “gotta have a man” bullshit by the time I was in my early thirties. But for one individual, I never once looked back.

    Jordan Peterson is a moron, a product of white male affirmative action.

  • AnotherOor

    Oh please, there are not more men in ergobabies at your costco or any other.

    And Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan are misogynists. Peterson’s “enforced monogamy” BS fits right in with incel ideology.

  • BeeWall

    Ignoring men is key to leading a happy life. About a year ago, I caught myself unconsciously getting out of the way of males, especially young males, in the aisles at the grocery store. And I, a lifelong radical feminist. So I stopped stepping aside, or waiting until the men gingerly did what they came to do. It’s such a conditioned thing, it was amazing to become aware of my behavior. Now I just do what I came to do, and men react, subtly most times, because their innate privilege is denied. Of course, next aisle women are making way, so it’s definitely one step at a time. But I’m doing my bit whenever and wherever it suits me, and I feel fine .

  • BeeWall

    But why shouldn’t women be selective in regard to male attractiveness? Isn’t that again setting a lower bar for men?

  • Agnes Robakiewicz

    Hi, this article really spoke to me, too. It’s amazing how sharp and insightful Meghan is- sometimes it feels like she’s reading my mind, and then voicing my thoughts more eloquently than I ever could. I just started reading (ok, listening to, it’s on Audible, which is super convenient for me) “Why does he do that- Inside the minds of angry and controlling men”, by Lundy Bancroft. Have you heard of it? I’m not suggesting you should do still more emotional labor and “figure him out”, nothing like that. I’ve just found it incredibly insightful and eye opening. It’s really shed a lot of light on myths about why men behave the way they do that I didn’t even realize I believed in, and why they’re so pervasive.

    • Hekate Jayne

      Why does he do that by Bancroft is now a legally free download. For anyone that wants to read it.

      • FierceMild

        I’ve been listening to his youtube presentations the last couple of days.

    • calabasa

      Oh, I’ve read it. I’ve read just about everything anyone could recommend.

      I still can’t help but feel that when they do these things to you they inject you with some of their darkness and steal some of your light. I feel stolen from. Particularly as in the end I betrayed my own empathy and cast judgment on him, which in my mind damns me as much as it does him.

      I suppose to him it must have felt like the most forgiving person in the world and someone who only desired an apology was a person he also managed somehow to utterly and permanently alienate. I feel he forced me into a betrayal of my own values and a change of worldview.

      I do think we are just flip sides of the coin, which no one responding positively (which I appreciate) seems to understand. I wish more studies were done into rape and revictimization, to speak to the women who always end up raped/in DV situations, and the men who always do it; and find where everybody else lies on the spectrum, because it’s somewhere in-between. Our society actively encourages it, and calls abuse love.

      Even the institution of “holy matrimony” was born out of abuse. Men have called abuse love and control protection for a very long time, but they were sold a bill of goods as well–we were all groomed this way.

      To me it’s important to remember that. I still believe it’s silly to criticize liberal “choice” feminism and put all the blame at the feet of men, as it’s not a consistent position. Male perpetrators of misogyny and abuse are also a product of a particular system. It’s the system we need to thoroughly dismantle, and it’s this bigger picture we need to keep in mind while doing activism.

      Meanwhile I agree we should take care of ourselves, and some predators are too far gone to get back into society, not without doing the work they need to do to change, which is nearly impossible for them. I am only salvageable because in the end I am *not* the one who *did it,* but since like all survivors I carry the shame and guilt that rightfully belongs to the perpetrator it’s hard to remember that.

      I still see us as very alike, with the large difference that I am capable of affective empathy in a way he is not, and I don’t have the desire to hurt people or to feed off of people that he has. I don’t blame him for turning out that way any more than I should blame myself for attracting such a person when I was vulnerable. It’s entirely society’s fault that we both ended up with the problems we have.

      In a way, his mental illness makes him *more* understandable. I know that mentally ill women (like me, although I don’t need to define myself by it) are much more likely to be victimized, whereas I believe mentally ill men, being men, may be more dangerous than your average guy; however, unlike the sexual narcissists out there who rape but otherwise keep their lives compartmentalized and running smoothly–the “specialists”–in a sense his illness makes him more human as I believe it has at least allowed him to feel some guilt over what he’s done, while mitigating his level of responsibility; he is seriously ill. There are plenty of men who do what he did who aren’t ill, however; they are “specialists.” Why the crime of sexual violence or domestic violence attracts “specialists” that other crimes don’t (most criminals, though they may stick to one type of crime, usually have no trouble disregarding the law in other areas) says a lot about our society and the way we raise boys.

      I don’t blame him, and I do feel empathy for him, but as I said, from a distance. And I agree that girls are taught compassion in a way boys aren’t and that too much of a good thing can also be toxic and can compromise our ability to protect ourselves. It is a sad realization though, as it feels like a piece of the innocence you kept with you is gone. It feels like it’s been taken from you by a perpetrator, and that in taking it’s he’s won.

      My compromise is not to temper that compassion, but to learn how to keep it back when I need to, and to actively learn how to protect and defend myself from those who seek to steal my light or to put it out.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Thanks Zoe! xx

  • Meghan Murphy

    Woah! Smart cookie, Morag! I didn’t even notice!

    • Morag999

      “Adam and Eva” (good god!) are both former prostitutes, practitioners of BDSM, drug addicts and gamblers, who talk at boring length about law, crime and punishment using the exact same phrases, with MRA talking points thrown in here and there.

      Just another man with a twisted mind. And an idiot, too!

  • Meghan Murphy

    Sweden is indeed rife with quality men and women… When I was there in Feb I was kinda blown away by how attractive and smart everyone was 🙂

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yes exactly. “Attractiveness” is never (for me, anyway) just about superficial, objective, physical “attractiveness.” There are so many other factors that go into it.

  • Adam Jozef

    Who? I can be whoever you want me to be.

    Are you denying that no reproductive laws exist pertaining to men in any way? Are you denying that major psychological, cultural, and other differences exist between male and female buyers and male and female sellers? If so, then yes it makes sense to have a blanket law. If not, then the Nordic model, while effective in dealing with male buyers and female sellers is flaws when dealing with the reverse since the circumstances are in fact fundamentally different.

    And are you denying that more female teachers than male like to diddle young boys at least from what I have seen in the media?

    • Meghan Murphy

      We figured you out, brah. Pretending to be a woman while making MRA arguments in a feminist forum is lame.

  • Ada

    But you are organizing, protesting and fighting back, so I hear in the news. And that is just great and powerfull and frankly the only way to achieve progress.

  • Hekate Jayne

    You have been found out, adam/Eva, lol. But let’s have a go, anyway, since I have a minute to spare.

    Women have no interest in buying “sex”. There are a lot of different reasons for this, most of them which would be way above your below baseline cognitive abilities, so l won’t waste my time. But one reason that I can hopefully simply enough so that even you can understand, adam/Eva, is that no one buys “sex”. What males are buying when they buy “sex” is slavery. See, adam/Eva, if a woman wants to have sex with you, she will invite you to do so. If a woman needs money, and she doesn’t have any, and she has no other way to get it, and her only option is to let you use her body as a masturbatory tool, that is rape. And in that time that you are using your money to coerce her into sex, that is slavery.

    And are you concerned about the 6 teenaged boys yearly that have sex with their female teachers? Really, adam/Eva? Well, why don’t you have a chat with your brothers, about how every time this comes up, dudes everywhere go on about “why couldn’t MY teachers in high school be that hot and fuck me?” And how dudes go on about how lucky those boys are?

    Also, no one here is interested in prostitution “licensing”. We are abolitionists. Look it up.

    It is obvious that you hate women. It is also obvious that you are really thirsty for a woman, any woman, to give you attention, in any way that you can get it, even if that means pretending that you are one of us. You think that you are adequately hiding your hate. I have news for you, adam/Eva. You are not hiding it at all. You overestimate your ability to cleverly mimic. And I know that you are wondering why women avoid you, so I did you the favor of telling you. YOU’RE WELCOME.

    And if your idea of males having their bodies legally regulated and controlled has anything to do with “sperm donation”(LULZ for fucking days), then you have no idea how reproduction legislation (or sperm, for that matter) works or why male government institutes it.

    Perhaps you might find another hobby. Because you suck at this one, where you troll women on the internet. I didn’t believe you as “eva”, and “adam” is an even sadder attempt. Have a nice day, asshole.

  • Hekate Jayne

    I thought I saw you in the Scooby van.

  • Can’tUnseeIt

    I am sorry about your bike accident. I know very well how a physical accident/injury can trigger ptsd. Really hope you can let go of trying to “understand what or why” your ex did to you. His treatment of you was inexcusable and NOT your fault. End of story. No need to punish yourself for what some sorry ASSHAT did to you. Love yourself, stay focused on what makes you feel happy to be alive. You can’t change the past. Not your job to fix all of the other broken people and not even remotely possible. Hugs.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I didn’t read number one in a necessarily bad way, just because, in my own experience, sex is what leads to dating… I’m not having sex with strange men, of course — these are men I already know, to some degree, but sex is kinda the thing that leads to dating, often…

    Maybe he meant something different though. i.e. that women are going around fucking random strangers?

  • Hekate Jayne

    Males accidentally oppress women.

    Ok, then.

  • I know from my own experience that it isn’t necessarily men doing more, but a) getting to pick and choose what *want* to do, rather than have to do and b) working middle-class women are hiring cleaners and gardeners to pick up the slack in order to get some harmony in the house, and to avoid having the same arguments over and over again with their spouses.

    This is by my observation of me and my friends – men are still able to choose when they swan in and out of emotional labour, and choose the easy and “fun” things (like time with kids) and get praised for it. Meanwhile, the toothbrush to the tiles, or the shower scrubbing, or the grunt work, is left to the woman (or a cleaner… or nobody).

    It’s not the quantity of the domestic work, but it is also the type of work that is significant. The shitty, invisible jobs are still left to women by default, whilst a man can take his kids to the park and cook a dinner and get a pat on the back.

    I hire someone to clean our house (and am fortunate to be able to do so), and I have a partner who does more than most men I know. But still, by and large, if I don’t engage in invisible emotional and domestic labour that is expected of me (or pay someone else to do it — and I note — most domestic workers are women), the house goes to shit.

  • I always refer back to this when trying to explain EL… https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0UUYL6kaNeBTDBRbkJkeUtabEk/view?pref=2&pli=1

    I love this and refer to it often.

  • Meghan Murphy

    As hard as breaking up is (I realize divorce may be or feel like a ‘bigger deal’ than breaking up, but it’s still breaking up), it always feels incredibly empowering and liberating, in the end, in my experience. The last couple of times I broke up with boyfriends I felt elated — almost like I was high. You just gotta get past the heartbreak part…

  • Meghan Murphy

    Is it possible not to harden your heart over time? I feel like it kinda just happens with maturity… Not completely, but, like, for example, the way I fall in love now is different than the way I fell in love when I was 18, and I don’t really want to go back to the 18-year-old version…

    • Tobysgirl

      As someone older than you, I will say one’s heart may very well harden over time. I certainly do not subscribe to right-wing philosophy, but as I have aged I have far less sympathy with many people. It took living in Maine for me to comprehend that many poor people have a very similar sense of entitlement as that of rich people, which was a bit of a shocker. I have come to see drug use as stemming not just from shitty conditions but from a sense of entitlement among those who have resources and opportunity. Though I believe our society’s mores are determined by the wealthy and powerful, I don’t see many people objecting to those mores as long as they have new cars and toys and plenty of junk. So, yes, my heart has hardened to the human condition.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t really plan things out like that… I meet people I’m into, we flirt, maybe we make out, maybe we have sex, if we continue to hook up and like each other, then we date and that will often turn into a relationship. I don’t really ‘date’ like other people, maybe… Like, I don’t intentionally seek out relationships, I don’t go on dating apps, I just don’t go out of my way, ever, to date people. If I meet someone I like and it happens to turn into a relationship, great. I’m not advocating this route, necessarily, I’m just saying this is I’ve always done things. But also I’ve never been, like, looking for a husband and someone to father my children, so….

  • Meghan Murphy

    Vancouver is much more beautiful, alas alas.

  • ohio ham

    If someone doesn’t see you as worthy of trying sex then honestly they don’t like you that much and are just being nice. Why waste your time and theirs?

  • Liz

    Your on a feminist website because the 20 year old college girls won’t give you any attention.

  • Tobysgirl

    And at work my husband listens to his fellow nurses and techs complain about men, then they turn to him and say, “Oh, sorry!” And he tells them it’s nothing compared to what his wife has to say about men!

    • FierceMild

      I recently made friends with a woman and went to her house for a cookout. I was saying something about what idiots men are when I realized her husband was right there so I gave him the “call it like I see it” shrug. When he agreed with me I knew two things:

      1) This man has suffered abuse at the hands of a man (or men).

      2) I’m really going to be friends with the woman throwing the cookout.

  • Tobysgirl

    I love that! Mansplaining mansplaining! And, yeah, I’m prejudiced in favor of victims as well. Who does he sympathize with when it comes to carjacking or mugging? The carjacker? The mugger?

  • Tobysgirl

    I have a lot of problems with the idea of unconditional love. Why should you love someone who is treating you like shit? Or taking you for granted? Taking your care for granted? I think the idea of unconditional love is another bullshit concept like that of constantly praising people for just being alive in order to improve their “self-esteem.”

    • Can’tUnseeIt

      It absolutely is another load of BS and contains the hidden implication/suggestion/request or maybe demand that no matter how shitty the other person treats you, you’re in it for the long-suffering haul. Unconditional crap is what I call it. Abusive men like to yammer on about it, for their significant others that is. Not so necessary for them to cultivate unconditional suffering. Must hinder erections.

  • Tobysgirl

    Yes! I not only like the essays here, the comments are very important to me. Lots of great insight, sharing of experiences, etc. It’s a wonderful place and many thanks as always to Meghan Murphy and crew and commenters! (Wouldn’t it be nice to have a get-together!)

  • ptittle

    You know, because of the context (here at FC), for a microsecond, I burst out laughing when I saw this – then I realized this is fuckin’ real. Not a spoof, not a joke.

    Imagine the same photo with the caption “Washington focus group for African American health laws.” Righteous outrage? You bet.

  • ptittle

    I think probably the older the feminist, the more likely that belief. Is it any wonder? For how many decades are we supposed to give ‘you guys’ the benefit of the doubt, yet another (and another) chance, etc., etc.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I honestly really don’t think things through that much… If I’m attracted to someone, I hook up with them… Sometimes it turns into more. It’s as simple as that.

  • Meghan Murphy

    <3

  • Meghan Murphy

    I’m not asking for advice. I understand what ‘falling in love’ means to me. I meant more that, like, as you mature, you are less naive and more rational about ‘love’, which could be interpreted as ‘hardening your heart.’

  • Meghan Murphy

    Why?

  • FierceMild

    word

  • FierceMild

    right. He was a sadomasochist exited prostitute married to a former client. Asshat…asshaberdasher really.

  • TwinMamaManly

    Same here, I keep checking for new comments, loving the dialogue

  • FierceMild

    Yup. Statistics also show that the “hard labor” jobs of a household like lawn care, gutter cleaning etc are the first to get farmed out to the neighbor kid for $20

  • Meghan Murphy

    I was at a gender equality conference so perhaps that’s why, but I feel like everyone I meet from Sweden, even over here in Canada, is super smart and interesting!

  • ptittle

    Agreed. We can break off a friendship, a relationship, we can divorce, but we’re expected to stay connected to parents and siblings for life. And we didn’t even choose them in the first place. Makes nothing but bad sense.

  • Wren

    Biased towards victims??
    Congrats, TwinMamaManly, you’re not a sociopath!
    Men’s favorite subject to mansplain IS manspaining I’ve found. It’s incredibly entertaining when they do.

    • TwinMamaManly

      In the course of the thread I actually got him to admit that women did experience violence and sexual assault, so it wasn’t a complete waste of time. It is astonishing how obtuse so many of them are – how the f**k did they end up ruling the world? (Brute force and firearms…silly me).

    • Vivian Li

      That’s exactly what stood out to me too. Who in their right mind would ever be biased in favor of the *perpetrator*? (If they weren’t a psychopath, that is..) Everyone should be biased for the victims, duh.

  • Wren

    Well you do have a job, as I thought. Why the fuck did Gundog keep telling you to get a job??? Does he just bark that at everybody he disagrees with?? I thought it was funny as all hell.

  • Wren

    When I had a team of men here to put in a sliding door last year, one of them left me a giant turd in my toilet; plugged it up with the undeniable evidence of his excretory manliness and just left an enormous fucking floater.

    The plunger was RIGHT NEXT TO THE TOILET.

    I can’t make this *shit* up, har har har.

  • TwinMamaManly

    Those males definitely emenate from the shallow end of the gene pool.

  • Wren

    Well Gundog even minored in women’s studies, and somehow women STILL didn’t want to fuck him. Gee, I wonder why?

  • Wren

    Ha!

  • and that’s why I love FC. I don’t participate as much as I would like, but I always read and linger and fight the good fight 🙂

    I love grey rock. heh.

    Totally trying that at my next networking event where some guy literally tells me what I do for a living.. most recent example was a I met someone at a business group, where he asked what I did (digital agency specialising in integrations with WordPress), then he said what he did (software development of a product in Java)… then proceeded to tell me how they’re exactly the same thing, despite being different languages, different challenges, different solutions, different customers… and then proceeded to one-up me in every conversation. It was unbelievable. It’s so bad in tech I just shake me head. Grey rocking is my go to from now on. I just said “no, not the same thing” and then ignored him. He didn’t like that one bit. lol.

    • Hekate Jayne

      That guy is an asshole. Fuck him.

      I didn’t think that I have ever gotten to talk with you before, but I am enjoying your comments immensely. And that emotional labor pdf that you posted down thread is amazing! I have saved it, thank you for sharing it.

      And I hope you keep talking.

      • Me too. Always an avid reader, but it takes me a day to read all the comments… haha! I came here from Jezebel (ugh) and never looked back… it’s a relief to see some actual discourse on the internet with smart radfem women. Fabulous 🙂

  • It has been very useful over the years to refer to. I gave it to my husband to read and he (kind of… they never 100% do) gets it.

    Also, you’re welcome. EL is good when not expected haha

  • TwinMamaManly

    Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. When I had breakdown two years ago – 8 month old baby, 3 year old twins, law degree, ageing MIL, crazy mother, home renovations and him working long hours – I told him I couldn’t cope because of all of the above, and he said yes, but what’s really wrong. I was like WTAF!!! Anything else? Isn’t that enough?

    • FierceMild

      I empathize, sister. There’s just so much work that goes into taking care of a ‘simple’ man…and his mother, and his children, and his siblings, and andandand

  • TwinMamaManly

    Xmas 2016 when 3 elderly relatives had meltdowns on me and I did all the catering, decorating, hosting, presents, organise Kris Kringle for extended family etc, I insisted we go to Fiji for Xmas 2017. Hubby (bless him) said, but we always have a good Xmas at home – I bloody wonder why!

    • Wren

      I hate Christmas.

      • TwinMamaManly

        Fiji was nice…we had cheeseburgers and fries by the pool for Christmas lunch

  • Hekate Jayne

    I think that it is up to the individual woman how much emphasis or importance is placed on sex.

    In my opinion, the idea that sex is the mostest importantest, sacred activity ever is fraught with bad implications. Male religions place emphasis on how sex is this sacred, sanctified thing that requires sharing your body, and that is for one super special male, but he can fuck whomever he wants to, I mean, sure, it’s still sacred, and all, but males are driven by penis, so what can you do.

    I always get a whiff of puritanical bullshit when I hear about how women need to make sure that a male is worthy, or some such bullshit.

    That doesn’t mean that I think that we shouldn’t be careful. Personal safety is a big fucking issue, the biggest one, with males being who they are.

    There are lots of reasons to have sex with a guy, and those reasons vary between women. And those reasons are not my business. I won’t judge other women, i am not interested in that, and that’s a male activity, anyway. If I question the personal motives of why another woman chooses to have sex with males, that is automatically placing me morally along some imaginary male continuum in relationship to her. Like if she has sex on the first date, but I don’t, that shouldn’t matter to me. If it does, I am assuming that my reasons are valid and hers are not, that I am more moral in comparison, and now I have concluded that I am somehow better. That is a MALE TRAP.

    When I dated, I fucked who I wanted to fuck when I wanted to fuck them. I had some friends with benefits, some one night stands, and various relationships, all with males. Some of them ended up being assholes. Almost all of them talked too much. I barely remember any of them now.

    I am married, almost 20 years, my anniversary is in 3 days. I haven’t engaged in PIV for political reasons for the last 2 or 3 years. Neither one of us misses it, and we still enjoy sex. But it is a lot less now. I am tired and I have other shit to do, most of it more interesting than sex. I am way more concerned about the next time I will be having ice cream or pie or a nap than I am about when I am going to have sex again.

    But I am sure that’s probably just me.

    • Meghan Murphy

      It’s not just you. I don’t think sex is nearly as important as the world pretends it is.

      • FierceMild

        Sex gets classified as a primary need in nursing school (Mazlow’s hierarchy of needs) along with breathing and food. I told the class that this is rape apology and the teacher’s response? “You can definitely tell a man wrote it.”

  • Hekate Jayne

    I think if those guys picked their own name, they would all choose an almost identical one, and it would amount to I GOTS A BIG PEEN.

    I mean, there would be some variance. But it would boil down to the one most important thing to dudes. And we all know what that is.

    • FierceMild

      True. Men love then some sausage.

  • ohio ham

    If you are categorically rejecting the idea of sex with someone then you find something wrong with them. You might be diplomatic because you want something from them but you still see them as lesser.

    • TwinMamaManly

      Stop being such a whiny man-baby. Why is every interaction about taking-giving, winning-losing, sex-rejection? So binary. So male.

      Having a non-sexual interaction with someone does mean I think they are “lesser”, it just means I’m not sexually attracted to them – you can’t force that shit OhioHam (but you’re an entitled sex-obsessed man so I guess you think you can).

      Clearly every single interaction you have with a female is a possible sex opportunity. How exhausting, but figures.

  • ohio ham

    I do not reject having sex with the people I meet at those places. It doesn’t have to be done in those places, but family reunion sounds fun.

  • TwinMamaManly

    That line totally stuck with me too. My response would be – so it means making it better for you asshole, no one else. And so what gives you the fucking right to decide who? And why does someone always have to suffer?

    I would totally be on the Wall in Gilead, I don’t even think my hyper-fertility would save me.

  • Mexican American Lesbian

    Ever wonder why radical feminism doesn’t appeal to a wide audience nowadays?

    • FierceMild

      No I don’t wonder at all. Tadical feminism is not popular because it would require a reordering if the social world. Your idea that if women were more polite and empathetic to men then Patriarchy would topple is the questionable position especially considering the fact that we tried that. For several thousand years.

      • Mexican American Lesbian

        I never suggested women should be more polite or empathetic. I simply suggested we should pitch feminism to men by appealing to their desire to not be judged by the norms of patriarchal masculinity (and a shitload of men I work with tell me they’d like to).

        • FierceMild

          And almost every other feminist site on the entire internet does exactly that, which is why I question your use of this particular forum for that purpose.

        • Robert Gonzalez

          When you say “pitch feminism” do you mean attempting to get male attention by reframing feminism in a way that focuses on showing men how the patriarchy constrains their self-expression?

          • Mexican American Lesbian

            Correct. And show male rape victims that it is patriarchy preventing them from getting justice.

  • Misanthropia

    I’m a woman who’s hardened and cold. I’m also a woman who’s hateful and has had anger management problems in the past. And for this people around me have said that I will be a difficult wife and daughter in law. I never felt remorse for being the way I am and now that I know fully how men are I am all the more glad to be the way I am. When we are born as women in this the process of femininity seeks to extinguish the fire inside of us, castrate us from our fury, and remove the steel from us. We are left as passive milquetoast servile beings that cannot argue for ourselves and fight for ourselves, and this is held up as an example of being a ‘good wife or mother’. Well it’s time to behave badly and reclaim what we are, in all our savage glory

    • Hekate Jayne

      I am not convinced that you are hateful or in need of anger management. We are told all of the time that we are not allowed to be angry, even when anger or even hatefulness is the appropriate response.

      When I get accused of being angry, my response is “yes, I am angry. I fucking have ears, eyes, and a sense of fucking awareness.”

      And that accusation is lobbed at me by fucking idiots when I say anything about rape, or reproductive rights, or domestic violence. It is telling that these people, usually male, don’t want to address male violence.

      They want to focus on my distinctly “unfeminine” anger, instead.

    • My epiphany a few years ago, was that for the bulk of society, you will NEVER be ‘wife enough’ or ‘mother enough’ – no matter how much you bend – and without completely losing your sense of self.

      Having only known relationships with proficient gaslighters in my 20s (and early 30s for a subsequent relationship), I honestly thought I was the problem. It culminated in a diagnosis of Bipolar II, that I accepted, because I was driven so far to the edge with my exes that I truly believed I was the problem.

      Every friend who I see who has “Borderline Personality Disorder” also happens to be with an asshole, and seem to blame themselves for their own “anger.”.. and he gets away with his shitty gaslighting behaviour.

      Until I left my first marriage, then went into an even MORE toxic relationship after that… I spent a chunk of time by myself. I later got into a marriage with someone emotionally healthy. Funnily enough, I haven’t had an “episode” or “mood problem” since I cut people like those men out of my life (as much a co-parent can). Doctors reversed my diagnosis.

      Turns out my “mood disorder” was actually them, and my “anger” was from being treated like shit and not being allowed to call them out. Not saying that these issues don’t exist, but Psychiatry has a helluva lot to answer for when it comes to women.

  • FierceMild

    One of the first that pops up when when you put his name in is about 2hrs long and touches most of what his book is about (I presume). I’m lookin for something to give male relatives so they can get a fucking clue.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I actually sort of agree. I think most individual men don’t realize their behaviour is oppressive or sexist. Some do, and simply don’t care, but lots don’t really understand they are behaving in sexist/misogynist ways. Socialization normalizes and therefore disguises sexist behaviour.

    • Mexican American Lesbian

      To be honest, I think it’s more of the former. In the wake of Trump, many males in my immediate social circle have suddenly become more interested in feminism.

      The constant generalizations made about men here are usually untrue, because most males are genuinely unaware of their sexism.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I think the fact I don’t date strangers/use dating apps probably helps… Again, because the men I hook up with these days are men I already know and like, so there is a certain level of respect in the hook up… Like because we genuinely like or respect one another. (This was not the case when I was younger so much… A lot of men I hooked up with treated me badly when I was 18ish… But I also used to hook up with terrible men when I was that age….) Men don’t tend to try to pull porny stuff on me nowadays, I suspect because they know my politics and know that shit wouldn’t fly with me lol.

  • Meghan Murphy

    This is an interesting theory!

  • Meghan Murphy

    Oh I think I see what you mean… But what I mean is that women feel they are empathizing with ‘troubled men’… Like this is their excuse of empathizing with them and putting up with the bad behaviour — because these men are troubled or have suffered, somehow, in their lives, leading them to behave badly.

    • martindufresne

      Ah, I see. So even if the man in question is merely an egotistical asshole, by his own choice, pop psychology and the general heterosexist culture incite women to see him as “troubled” and in need of selfless support. Your essay makes that very clear.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Right! But yeah, I see your point….

  • ohio ham

    Very few people actually fit in that category for men.

  • ohio ham

    There is a difference between totally rejecting someone and rejecting them because you don’t want to go to jail and get raped.

    • FierceMild

      Men in prison are half as likely to get raped as women are in our normal lives.

  • Meghan Murphy

    The idea that we need to maintain relationships with people who harm us or simply make us miserable, simply because we are related, is ridiculous.

  • Hanakai

    http://www.duolingo.com is a well-made site with free language lessons.

  • Hekate Jayne

    I know that you already know this, but I want to clarify what I am about to say because it is going to be a little upsetting for a few people.

    When you say this:
    ” But she thinks, “ughhhh, maybe he thinks I work here, maybe he’s old and senile, I’m a fucking bitch if I ignore him.” So she walk two steps closer………”

    I have killed that impulse. If I had to pick a category of male that is the most fucking annoying, it is the fucking old ones. The ones with canes and scooters. And the reason that I abhor their old dumb asses is because when I look at them, I see the multiple women and all of the free labor from their backs that got that old fuck to a really old age, and they are still raging, entitled assholes and they are STILL obsessed with their fucking boner and they make sure that we know it, too. And the women that took care of them, cooked for them, got their medicine for them, almost never fare as well.

    Icemountainfire in her blog post “men are not broken” talks about an old male that terrorized women by sneaking up behind them and hitting them on the skull with a hammer. No One suspected a sweet old man, you see.

    I know that most old males aren’t doing that. But they are still more than able to sexually harass us and just go around in public being asshole fucksticks.

    A year or 2 ago, around the time that my anger outweighed my fear (and sometimes my common sense, I admit), there was an old white male in a scooter giving a cashier a hard time at Wal-Mart (lol, it’s like I live there). I was behind him, I can’t even remember exactly what he was doing, but whatever it was was uncalled for, and he was being shitty to a woman that was captive to her job. I have a thing about that, anyway, so many people are shitty to the cashiers, like the cashier made the schedule with not enough cashiers, or like she makes the rules. She is likely collecting benefits because she is so underpaid, people can be fucking nice to her.

    I asked him what his problem was and he told me to “mind your business, young lady”. I said “ok, well, stop giving her a hard time, please, she is trying to help you”. He grumbled and pulled out his wallet and TOSSED fucking money at her. So I looked at her and said “he’s an asshole” and he turned around to put me in my place and I told him to shut up unless he was sure that he could outrun me on that fucking scooter.

    That was one of the first times I stood up for another woman. I was a little scared at myself, really. But when he puttered away, for some reason, I felt a little embarrassed, and I apologized to the cashier. She busted out laughing and thanked me. Apparently, he is like that frequently, and not only to her, although she has waited on him before. And she said that more than his attitude, it’s his fucking stink that bothered her more than anything. He doesn’t bother bathing. But he can make it into Wal-Mart to be an insufferable asshole.

    TLDR: I hate old males. Especially when they are in a fucking scooter.

    • Wren

      Thank you Hekate! I am intellectually with you, and I think I’m almost to the point where I can override my conditioning on this issue. I think that’s why this story — despite being one the LEAST traumatizing experiences in my life — haunted me and still does. It is not just that he was a pig, but that I walked right into it because I still doubt my instincts, so I was pissed at myself. But I am definitely catching on. Definitely.

  • Hekate Jayne

    Those little girls are so lucky to have you.

    It is my dream that all little girls get to spend time with and be influenced by women that can *see* them and encourage them. Even if just for a specified time. That makes me happy.

    • FierceMild

      Me too. Can you imagine how different our lives could have been if women mentored one another?! This is my goal; to foster mentorship among women everywhere I go for the rest of my life.

  • Hekate Jayne

    I disagree.

    But for the sake of argument, let’s say that males are just confused or don’t realize that it is wrong to rape and murder us, or control our bodies.

    So? What is your solution? How do we get them to understand that sexually harassing and raping us is wrong? How do we end their confusion? How can we enlighten them?

    How can we beg and plead and explain our humanity to the poor, confused dears?

    Because if males are truly this stupid, then they just need our patience, kindness and assistance, right?

  • Wren

    Oh ok, maybe it was you that mentioned it. Sorry I couldn’t remember. Do you have any more info about him?

    • Hekate Jayne

      I do think it was will that mentioned Alan young. I just talk so much I can’t remember everything that I say, so if it sounds like something I might have said, I am slow to correct.

  • Wren

    Haha, next time I venture there I will check my lunar calendar and read my tarot cards to see if it’s an auspicious time!

  • Wren

    Just tell me where and when. ✈️

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yeah I’ve been working since I was like 11… I babysat until I could get a ‘real’ job, legally (at 16). All of gundog’s comments make him seem like he has no clue what the real world is like.

  • FierceMild

    I think the reason my husband isn’t a d-bag is partly because he’s super scary looking. If he likes to have fresh flowers at work or prefers to eat chicken wings with a knife and fork because he hates sauce on his hands no one is going to say anything to him about it. Not one thing. Now imagine if men just extended each other the courtesy of not remarking on small personal preferences. Better world.

  • Anon

    It’s because Sweden is safer I guess. Women in Iceland have even more liberal attitudes and Iceland’s probably the safest country in the world.

  • Meghan Murphy

    lol yes v true. I ‘make plans’ with people (friends, etc), then we do the thing we planned to do… The idea of just hanging out is pretty teenagery… Like back in the days when we all had nothing to do and were afraid to be alone with ourselves, so were constantly just hanging around in someone’s basement or in a parking lot somewhere.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I was great at playing nice when I was younger. Now I am much too intolerant and impatient with assholes.

  • Hekate Jayne

    I interned at an insurance office while I was in college for a bit.

    A male customer came in and sauntered up to the counter and said to the 3 women working “hey ladies, I am gonna make yer day! Imma pay my bill in FULL.” And then he winked.

    We looked at each other, and we started to laugh. He was all “why you laughing?”

    One of the women said “how does paying your bill make OUR day? It’s not like we get the money.” And then I said that as an intern, I wasn’t paid at all, lol.

    He was pissed that we were laughing at his dumbass. They always think they are so clever, and they get irritated when we show them otherwise, lol.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “If you take off the societal restraints women’s sexuality starts to look a lot like men’s.”

    How so?

  • FierceMild

    In either case classifying reproduction on the same need level is insane. “Sir, can you breathe? Have you had a child? Sir, HAVE YOU REPRODUCED AND CAN YOU BREATHE?” Just not the same level in a hierarchy of needs.

  • FierceMild

    I try to cultivate courtesy in myself. I’m afraid I’m a deeply discourteous person by nature.

  • Meghan Murphy

    wtf are you talking about? Be specific?? How is women’s sexuality ‘like men’s’. What does that mean? What evidence do you have of this? How do you even know what women’s sexuality would look like, outside patriarchy?? I mean, women don’t even know what our sexualities would look like outside patriarchy.

    • Liz

      What his bird brain is trying to say is he want’s those perfect 10 women to not be ashamed to freely give him the sex he deserves.

  • ptittle

    Yes, of course. I meant to be referring to the traditional gender/sex roles. Man of the house as breadwinner, blah, blah. (Which have always managed to be blind to the work of women.)

  • FierceMild

    I hoped and thought that was likely your perspective. I had to explain to my classmates why a species need really shouldn’t be taken into account on the individual level.

  • FierceMild

    I grew up in MASS but don’t live there anymore. I’m doing a 4 year program in the South and it’s AWESOME. I am not a nurturing person by disposition, but I have to say it is really nice to be in a profession dominated by strong, intelligent, tough-minded women.

  • Meghan Murphy

    lol you misunderstand me. I don’t think these are ‘good’ guys who aren’t pornified/impacted by porn culture. All I said was that they don’t try to pull ‘porny stuff’ on *me*. This doesn’t mean they don’t do it to other women… It doesn’t mean they don’t watch porn, themselves. The fact that these men are men I know and that there is a level of respect already there is true, but that is not the same as me ‘naively’ believing that somehow I am picking out ‘good’ men who haven’t or don’t watch porn. Men, in this world (in case you haven’t noticed), don’t equate porn-use with disrespecting women, because everyone
    tells them constantly that porn is ‘perfectly normal’, ‘harmless,’ ‘just fantasy’, that ‘all men do it’, and that it’s necessary for masturbation. I’m usually the first person to have ever told them porn is bad for men as well as for women and that they should stop looking at it.

    The idea that I’m ‘naive’ when it comes to men is laughable. You make some incredible assumptions about me, my life, and the men I date, though…

    (Also, ftr, I don’t use birth control. I haven’t in over a decade.)

  • Alienigena

    I just experienced the reason why I don’t have much empathy towards men. Walking down the street at noon a seemingly homeless guy (taller than me) yells at me and sort of lurches/lunges out of the alley, saying “Hey lady”. I decide to ignore him (I was taught that it is best way to approach these situations, as I anticipate your snorts of laughter, I concur with your derision, this approach rarely works, it is sort of like putting your head in sand as a bunch of rampaging wildebeests stampede towards you) and says ‘fuck you bitch’ under his breath and under my breath I say how I would like to ‘fuck him, with his own forearm, after removing it at the elbow’. Silence from him, more muttering from me (I have hypokalemia (doctor diagnosed, not me on the Internet with Google), and it like iron deficiency leaves you with little patience for idiots). He accosts another woman as I look back and points at me to complain about my response to his insult. Men are such whiners and women are such feckless handmaidens.

    • Windrix

      Ha so metaphorical to every male and female situation. They abuse, then woman stands up for herself, then he whines and complain to the next woman about how awful she is. Most men are major gaslighters unfortunately.

      Its like a continuous cycle. Makes you wonder how most men end up in your life. Like what if my my dad just convinced my mom to feel bad for him after his “horrible” exes.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I agree that we can’t be 100% sure of anyone! I just disagree on the assumption of naiveté…

  • Meghan Murphy

    Oh gosh I don’t trust men as far as I can throw them lol

  • Am happy now 🙂

  • Liz

    What a disgrace! He should be banned for promoting violence!

  • Liz

    Your porn sick and delusional.

  • Hekate Jayne

    Ick.

    Dudes choose to commit mass violence but it is the fault of the LADIES.

    Why am I not surprised that he thinks that.

  • Meghan Murphy

    What!??!

  • Vivian Li

    It has been well-known for some time now that marriage benefits men much more than women, no matter how many men want to deny this fact. Numerous studies back this up. Married men are healthier/happier than single men, and single women are healthier/happier than married women, on average.

  • Vivian Li

    Incels are no different than those disgusting misogynists across the globe who yearn for and support the practice of child brides. These scum should all be exterminated.

  • Hekate Jayne

    You might “feel” like women terrorize men. But that is not anything even close to reality.

    Feelings don’t erase reality. Unless you are a male. Which is exactly what you sound like.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I find some of his university lectures interesting. There is lots that he says that I disagree with or simply don’t understand, because I find he is often annoyingly vague in the media, but I don’t agree that he’s dangerous. Re: the feminine and masculine, he’s talking about literary tropes, he’s not saying that literally women = chaos. His ideas don’t translate well in the mainstream.

    • Topazthecat

      That’s because his ideas are horrible,sexist,racist,woman-hating and biologically deterministic,it has nothing to do with how they translate into the mainstream,and there isn’t anything vague about how sexist,racist,woman-hating and biologically deterministic he is in his youtube videos interviews and in his book!

      Please read this great bad 1 star review by a young male Goodreads reviewer Galius who says a quick search of Jordan’s youtube videos will demonstrate that he is apologetically sexist and racist,as well as vehemently denying ubiquitously experienced injustices such as sexism,white privilege,and classicism and grounding his erroneous claims as ”facts” such as IQ tests and the behavior and physiology of lobsters.

      Galius also says that Peterson asserts that individuals exist in what he calls dominance hierarchies,that these dominance hierarchies are natural and inescapable because of the opposing forces of order and chaos, and says in parentheses ( unsurprisingly rigidly eternally correlated to male and female respectively) and that the individual must therefore seize control of his or her life,strategically placing one foot in order,and the other in chaos,in an attempt to compete for primacy in these dominance hierarchies and make meaning of ones’s life,there’s really no true meaning or progress in his view though.

      Galius also said before this in his review,that there’s a reason why Jordan Peterson overwhelmingly appeals to the alt-right,anti-feminist,anti-semitic,white supremacist,kekistani types.there’s a reason why he’s ,braced warmly by staunch conservatives,invited to appear on Fox News,and other right-wing media outlets often,and collaborates with popular ”free speech” race science,anti-identity politics defenders AKA The Intellectual Dark Web,it’s because his philosophy is morally bankrupt. Galius also said that he ultimately ( unwittingly) propping up racism and misogyny.

      https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2375500465

      This is what he tweeted to justin Trudeau who had tweeted that it was incredibly inspiring and motivating to see so many people come out to support women’s rights,we see you,we hear you and our government will keep fighting for gender equality in Canada.

      So Jordan disturbingly tweets back to him,Is that the murderous equity doctrine? Do you understand where that leads? Or do you think you’ll do it differently?

      https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/955440524575391744?lang=en

      Great post by Dr.Gail Dines on how horrible Jordan Peterson really is!

      https://www.facebook.com/gaildines/posts/10155227278610563

      Jordan also calls feminists or any women who disagree with him,crazy harpies and why he can’t hit a woman

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL3Hrwg3A3w

      https://www.chatelaine.com/opinion/jordan-peterson-gender/

      • Liz

        He has a blank dead stare.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I’m able to disagree with people and simultaneously not feel that they are necessarily dangerous. I am well aware of who he is and who is fans are. You would be surprised at who else also finds him interesting or perhaps simply ‘not dangerous’, I suspect. There are all sorts of people I disagree with and also find interesting or not dangerous. If you watch some of his old university lectures, you too might find you have a different impression. Perhaps not, which is fine, of course. I’m not out to defend the man, because I don’t think he needs defending and I find his popularity and mainstream persona odd and annoying, but I also am not the type to write people off either because of what I read about them, who their fans are, or because they don’t share my ideology. I am pro-debate, pro-conversation, pro-challenging my own ideas and the ideas of others.