What are the responsibilities of pro-feminist men in the Michael Kimmel case?

Prominent sociologist and pro-feminist, Michael Kimmel, has been accused of unethical conduct. What should the response of academics and activists who identify as pro-feminist or feminist be?

The irony of one of the leading pro-feminist male scholars being accused of sexual harassment is painfully obvious. The accusations against sociologist Michael Kimmel have been anonymous so far and investigations are just beginning, but we need not wait to take seriously Kimmel’s own advice to men who find themselves in this position.

In an article published earlier this year, “Getting Men to Speak Up,” Kimmel wrote:

“We are in a new moment. For many of us, particularly men, it is scary and uncomfortable. Men are feeling vulnerable and afraid of false accusations (or perhaps true ones). They fear that things they did a long time ago will be reevaluated under new rules. They tell me they’re walking on eggshells. Because of this, many men are staying silent rather than taking part in the conversation. And yet inaction isn’t necessarily the right approach; there are important things men can do and say to support the women in their lives.”

Silence is unacceptable. Supporting women is our primary task. From those insights, there are two important points to make right now if pro-feminist men in the academic and activist worlds — and I include myself in both categories — are to “walk the talk.”

The first concerns Kimmel’s inadequate response so far. In the Chronicle of Higher Education story (which is behind a paywall, though the text has been posted and another higher ed publication has since published) that made public the accusations of unethical conduct, Kimmel said that he believed he he has been “professional and respectful in my relationships with women,” but that he takes such concerns seriously and wants “to validate the voices of those who are making such claims. I want to hear those charges, hear those voices, and make amends to those who believe I have injured them.”

The women “who believe I have injured them”? This echoes the implicit denial of folks who apologize “to anyone who was offended” by bad behavior, instead of coming to terms with that behavior. This phrasing suggests that the alleged perpetrator did nothing really all that wrong and that the problem is those who took offense or believe they have been injured. Such a response does not signal support for women, who already face pressure not to speak up and risk retribution if they do.

Debra Guckenheimer’s cogent analysis, “What We Need From Accused Perpetrators Like Michael Kimmel,” offers concrete steps he could take, starting with: “Acknowledge and believe the survivor even if their account does not fit with his sense of self.” She also points out that by announcing that he would delay for six months accepting an award from the American Sociological Association (the Jessie Bernard Award, “given in recognition of scholarly work that has enlarged the horizons of sociology to encompass fully the role of women in society” — the irony intensifies), he “fails to acknowledge the risks for graduate students and junior faculty to come forward.”

Eric Anthony Grollman made a similar observation in a blog post, about the costs to students:

“The failure of academic institutions to effectively punish sexual violence also places the burden on victims and bystanders. For students, it means deciding whether to take a course with, collaborate with, and/or work for professors about whom they’ve been warned.”

The second point is about the relative public silence of academics and activists who identify as pro-feminist or feminist — myself included. I have written extensively against pornography from a radical feminist perspective and count myself as part of the movement against men’s violence and sexual exploitation of women (as well as other movements focused on racism, economic inequality, and ecological crises). Yet my first reaction to the Chronicle story was to avoid the controversy and say nothing publicly. I posted the links to the story and Guckenheimer’s piece on social media but was otherwise silent. It wasn’t until a female feminist friend said to me, “Where are the pro-feminist men in this? Are you men going to leave it to the women to deal with this?” that I realized I was not just being careful — I was being cowardly.

In 30 years of academic and political life, I have interacted with Kimmel professionally on a number of occasions, though we aren’t friends or close colleagues. He and I have different intellectual and political agendas, but I have been on panels with him and he “blurbed” my 2017 book on patriarchy and radical feminism.

My hesitation was rooted in two reactions, neither of which I can defend. First, the pro-feminist men’s movement has enough problems reaching out to men, and being trusted by women, without its most visible writer being accused of sexual misconduct (Kimmel’s books include Angry White Men: American Masculinity at the End of an Era; Guyland: The Perilous World Where Boys Become Men; and Manhood in America: A Cultural History). Second, my experience with Kimmel led me to believe he might fight back against critics, and I wasn’t eager to get mixed up in such a struggle.

Looking back over the past few days, I see my hesitation as negligence. The silence of other pro-feminist men is, I believe, also negligent (I realize that younger scholars, especially graduate students, are more vulnerable; here I’m thinking mainly of older and more established men such as myself). I have learned a lot from my female feminist friends and colleagues over the years. One of the things I should have acted on sooner is the lesson they have tried to teach us about men’s responsibility and accountability.

[Addendum: Just as I was finishing this article, M.J. Murphy posted “The Two Kimmels,” an account of his own experience with Kimmel and his conclusion that Kimmel’s “personal behavior doesn’t exactly reflect the kinds of humility and accountability he recommends to other male feminists.” This is the kind of honesty that is needed.]

The details of the specific accusations made against Kimmel so far have not been made public in detail, and I have no insider knowledge of those cases. But as is typical, once an accusation has been made women are starting to talk, and I am hearing some of that discussion. For example, here is a comment from a woman who had worked with Kimmel, and asked to remain anonymous:

“His treatment of me negatively impacted me for a very long time. Reading his assertion that he has been ‘professional and respectful in… relationships with women’ is painful, and reveals the extent of his denial and misunderstanding, to say the least, of the harm he has caused. I have not experienced professional, respectful treatment, though I know other women he has worked with who have. However, I am not alone in being subjected to his worst treatment, and sadly, it goes beyond simply being sexually propositioned and objectified.”

I cannot reach a definitive judgment at this stage on the accusation of sexual harassment, but based on my understanding of the world, my experience with Kimmel, and those discussions I can state two things without hesitation: 1) Kimmel’s response is inadequate, by the standards he himself has set for men; and 2) the response of the pro-feminist men’s movement has been inadequate by the standards we have set for ourselves.

All of us who have been teachers know the concept of the “teachable moment,” when events provide the material for making visible the abstract and theoretical. On questions of men’s sexual exploitation of women — how patriarchy operates in the world to subordinate women sexually — this is another of many such moments, for us all.

Robert Jensen is a professor in the School of Journalism at the University of Texas at Austin and the author of The End of Patriarchy: Radical Feminism for Men. He can be reached at rjensen@austin.utexas.edu.

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  • martindufresne

    I am thankful to Robert Jensen, Debra Guckenheimer and M.J. Murhy for speking up and, hopefully, pushing M. Kimmel toward more accountability.

  • Robert Gonzalez

    A situation like this just proves to me once again how men cannot ever be trusted when they are put in positions of power over women, even in the smallest ways. And I do mean to apply that sentiment to all walks of life, but especially when it comes to feminism. The fact that he’s considered a “feminist activist, gender expert, and renowned sociologist” is fucking deplorable. He’s also apparently seen as “very powerful in academic Women’s/Gender Studies.”

    Men (including myself) will never completely understand what it’s like to be a woman (yes, that includes TIMs). And for that reason we men can never be completely trusted to do the right thing, all the time, at least not as society presently stands. In the past I used to constantly find issues that I disagreed with when I first learned about radical feminism, mostly because I was so fucking entitled. Nowadays I find myself agreeing with everything radical feminist areas of the internet speak about or discuss. Still, like Robert Jensen, I have to constantly hold myself accountable and not play the victim, unlike Captain Asshole (Michael Kimmel). What most men have the hardest time grasping is that it’s not always about you or your feelings. When someone tells you that YOU have hurt them, you shut the fuck up and you listen. I’ve said it before on here many times: men need to do a lot more listening and supporting and lot less talking. The only reason I’m speaking up right now is because I support these victims and because I agree that pro-feminist men like myself need to speak up a lot more when something like this happens. Too many so-called “pro-feminist men” are cowards, as Jensen mentioned. This victimization of women, even in what should be “safe spaces,” is no surprise to me; however, that doesn’t make any this any less significant or infuriating.

    Additionally, I feel that too many of us pro-feminist men are not trustworthy. Why? Because I believe that as it currently stands men cannot be trusted in positions of power, especially over women. With the patriarchy constantly giving men every opportunity to give into whatever desires they have, they constantly prove how ethically bankrupt they are and do often end up taking advantage of their positions of power to abuse others, especially women and girls. None of this is anything new, of course. However, it’s time that men be pushed completely out of these avenues for abuse. Men are not and will never be authorities on feminism. Women are authorities on feminism.

    In closing this, I’d like to share what Michael Kimmel (Captain Asshole) said himself but apparently refuses to apply to himself:

    “Sexual harassment persists because of three factors: the sense of entitlement that some men feel toward the women they work with; the presumption that women won’t report it or fight back; and the presumed support — even tacit support in the form of not calling out bad behavior — of other men….”

    • Shambolic

      Thank you.

    • Dassem Ultor

      Women will never completely understand what it’s like to be a man. And for that reason women can never be completely trusted to do the right thing, all the time, at least not as society presently stands.

  • oneclickboedicea

    It’s always difficult speaking truth to power. I am glad you’ve posted this article and hope that this illumination will open up the truth, wherever that may lead us. Pro feminist men are learning, like pro feminist women know, that fighting for a new world order takes raw courage. Onward!

  • NeoLotus

    When Al Franken was accused he gave the most honest and sincere response I’d ever heard. I liked his response. The accusation against him, however, was made up and rang hollow to me. It’s very unfortunate he was railroaded out of the senate. As for Kimmel, it seems he’s made a lot of money being a pretender and fooling a lot of people. The real way to separate the fake from the real is to subject them to Jane Elliot’s course on discrimination. Also, Dustin Hoffman’s interview about what it was like to play Tootsie is also very telling.

  • Jani

    Speaking from experience, the most vocal pro-feminist men I have met have been the worst offenders. It’s just that they indulge their sexist pastimes under cover. Porn, strip clubs, voyeuring and following unsuspecting women in public places, etc etc. Yet nobody suspects these guys because, well, they’d never do such things, would they? Because they’re against all of that, aren’t they?

    I accept that there are some genuine pro feminist men, but I also believe that there were more than a few who used their “feminism” as nothing more than an elaborate chat up line, a way to impress women. It’s also a very handy disguise for all their sexist and objectifying indulgences. It’s how they get away with it. “Mr Pro Feminist? Never! He’s just not like that!” Sorry, but these guys can be the worst.

  • Meghan Murphy

    What do you mean by “true equality (50-50)”? And where on earth did you get the idea that feminism’s aim was ‘supremacy’?

    • I tried to answer you, but the best I can tell, while my discus profile still says “pending” I can’t find my comment to your questions actually in the thread.

      I was about to compliment this site for its fairness in letting dissenting views be debated—an increasingly rare thing on feminist sites. Else, it’s fascist to shut out dissenting speech. I answered your question with clarity and certainty but it is not included in this discussion. Too much truth, I guess. So, since I am not allowed to be right, which reflected in my comment/answer to you, I must move on.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Dude. ALL comments here are moderated. This means a human being has to manually approve every single one before it is is published. Chill.

  • sputnik

    What are the responsibilities of pro-feminist men in the Michael Kimmel case?

    Same as in any other case: a presumption of innocence until guilt is proven. Unfortunately, there are those who consider any such case to be tried and proven in the court of public opinion simply upon the basis of an allegation.

    • FierceMild

      Dude, this article isn’t about the duties of a jury.

    • TwinMamaManly

      Oh yes, in the most patriarchal, male-dominated, anti-women institution of all time – the judiciary and court system. Yes we as radical feminists will definitely be relying on that system to bring the truth to light here!

  • Dassem Ultor

    Sorry, Professor Murphy, have any of you ever really read Kimmel’s books? How can you assume that someone who continuously declares an entire sex subhuman is certainly friendly and balanced in private? You were enthusiastic about the hatred that Kimmel spread as long as this hatred was considered totally hip and politically correct (and it still applies, keyword “old white men”). How could Kimmel ever get the impression that his repulsive behavior could be wrong as long as he was constantly being celebrated for it?

    Incidentally, I see my thesis confirmed that Kimmel flatly and continuously lowers other men because he projects the dark side of his own psyche onto these men.

    Like many, many other male feminists.

    • mm hmm

      Which of his books have you read?

  • FierceMild

    “If women are carried…”
    We aren’t.

    “Men per women nothing for what nature has done…”
    This is an article about what an individual man>/i> has done.

    “True equality (50-50) will never be attained so long as women refuse to accept responsibility…”
    Women do 66% of the world’s work. We won’t reach 50-50 until men pull their own weight in the world and in the home. We are not responsible for your delusions of adequacy, man-child.

  • FierceMild

    Robert said men will never completely understand what it’s like to be a woman. He did it say all women are infallible angels who deserve implicit trust at all times. You need to learn to use your brain for something other than illlofical self-justification. Criticism of men is not praise of women.

  • Hey Ooo

    You sound like you think misandry is a real thing.

    • Count me in too. If not trusting women or questioning their motives is misogyny, then the same can be said—objectively— about misandry.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t think it’s true that women lie ‘all the time’. Yes, some women lie, but in general, the idea that women simply are making up stories about rape out of thin air doesn’t fly. More likely, what you call “lies” are just different experiences. A woman experiences something as sexual assault, as coercive, as “unwanted sex,” and the man doesn’t see it that way because he doesn’t get what it feels like to be on the other end of “unwanted sex” or how gross it feels to be pressured into sex you don’t want.

  • Wren

    Right? That’s the crux of the article. People seem to be projecting onto Jensen’s words

  • All the shaming tactics predictably hurled at me doesn’t undo any of what I said here. Shaming tactics only work on the men who grant others access to their sense of manhood. I stand firm with my comment. I do however like it when people who practice ideology, and get questioned over it, squirm.

    I have gone my own way. And guess what: you saw it here. I and only I will determine the way I go. This is my own way.

    • Meghan Murphy

      lol k bye

      • I am not allowed to speak here anymore. Humm, I wonder why? I answered your other question to me, but “someone” doesn’t like being proven wrong. Indeed, this comment will likely be deleted as well. Let the best argument win…unless one side isn’t allowed to speak.

        That’s OK though. I have other places and purposes. I may be shut out here, but my human voice will be and is heard elsewhere.

        • Meghan Murphy

          Who says you aren’t allowed to speak here anymore? You seem to be speaking here just fine.

          You all leave literally the same comments, btw. You all assume you are being ‘censored’, and claim it is because I/we ‘can’t handle being challenged.’ Yet here you are. Being very boring and predictable, but indeed still talking…

        • TwinMamaManly

          No one is shutting you down. We are disagreeing with you. Telling you to sit down, shut up and listen for once. But you keep blathering on, thinking what you have to say is important and takes precedence, because you are a man what you say always has to take precedence and be important…..amiright? Don’t think we haven’t heard all your trope before. The astonishing thing is you think you are so original and groundbreaking and that you can mend our disobedient ways and that we will see the light of the hard done by man. We just need to sit down, shut up and take it. Well we don’t here. We say what we please. Including to men like you.

        • mm hmm

          Where will your nonhuman voice be heard?

  • The same can be asked of feminists. Blaming men for not putting women first while expecting men to abandon their own sex is also abuse. Men and women have similar human problems often not gendered the way feminism presents it: the MRA purpose. True equality is egalitarian. For some reason, the concept of truly egalitarian frightens many.

    No one can legitimately say I am not for equality. Equal in all things, including responsibilities, accountability, duties, and sacrifices…all commonly denominated by equal personal responsibility as adults.

    Let true equality prevail.

    • Meghan Murphy

      Do you know what the word ‘abuse’ means?

    • TwinMamaManly

      Women are not asking to be “put first”, they’re asking not to be murdered, raped, abused and controlled, and not discriminated against due to their biology and reproductive capabilities.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t think ‘pro-feminist men’ are necessarily ‘the worst offenders,’ but I do think that men who go around insisting they are feminist to anyone who will listen are red flags.

    • Jani

      Absolutely the “red flag” behaviour that is superficially impressive, and yes, very vocal about making their “feminist” credentials known to anyone (almost always female) who give them the time of day. I guess I’m pointing the finger at myself and my youthful naivety.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You seem not to understand feminism very well… You should try listening to what we are actually saying instead of reading whatever nonsense MRAs invent about feminism/feminists.

    Men don’t have the ability to get pregnant or give birth, so too bad.

    Feminists don’t want “supremacy,” they want to end male supremacy/

  • TwinMamaManly

    Precisely! Here’s some money for the bus fare….

  • Meghan Murphy

    Agree.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I mean, if you don’t want a baby, wear a condom or get a vasectomy… Take responsibility. If a woman has a baby, she is forced to take responsibility, as in, she is forced to give birth to and (in most cases) raise the child. A pretty big deal, I’d say!

    Some men have to pay child support, yeah (and many don’t), but so what? They aren’t forced to stick around or take equal responsibility for raising the child (and many don’t). Even in marriages, women do most of the work, in terms of child rearing.

    What are all these ‘choices’ he doesn’t have??? I think what you *ACTUALLY* mean is that he doesn’t have *control*.

  • Meghan Murphy

    For the most part, yeah.

  • Meghan Murphy

    As far as I can see, all of your comments have been approved or are in moderation.

  • Meghan Murphy

    So far, none of your comments have been deleted.

  • Robert Lindsay

    MGTOW’s are radfems in male drag. Sorry, it’s just true.

  • Elara

    I think it was a mentagram.

  • Sumi

    I think you misunderstood. I think what he meant is that “gender”, as a social construct, has no basis in biology (i.e. biological determinism) – hence the “biological *fiction* of gender and its roles is hateful”…

    He wasn’t conflating sex and gender. At least, that’s not how I read it.

  • Meghan Murphy

    i don’t think any woman *wants* a relationship with the men ‘going their own way’…

  • Meghan Murphy

    And how many times must a woman speak before she is listened to?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Oh please. The notion that men are being sexually harassed by women en masse is a joke. The reason sexual harassment is a problem is because of power dynamics — i.e. because men are in a position of power. if they were not, sexual harassment would not be such a big issue, because it would be easy for women to tell men to fuck off and they wouldn’t feel afraid or that they had to go along with it, lest they be fired, cussed out, beat up etc.

  • Meghan Murphy

    There are no comments from you in either the spam folder or the deleted folder. Sorry.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You are correct that i have moderated all your comments. As i said in another reply, i double-checked, and none of your comments are in either the spam folder or the deleted folder. You are literally whining about nothing. Move on.

  • Meghan Murphy

    ALL OF YOUR COMMENTS HAVE BEEN POSTED. Stop whining and either engage if you wish or go away. You are such a boring cry baby.

    • You are a mod, so check your stuff. “Pending” remaining on my disqus profile for several posts I made, coupled with actually viewing the comment section on your site only to see these same “pending” comments absent, is indicative of censorship. Like I said earlier, I am out of here. But not before I call this site fascist. I came here to debate. All any of you have done is avoid debate to instead hurl names and make personal attacks…illustrative of not having adequate rebuttals. Typical.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Oh gosh! You’re probably right! I am probably too dumb to understand how comment moderation works 🙁

  • TwinMamaManly

    Or maybe you should stop pestering and harassing women for sex and attention.

  • Alienigena

    And the contestant known as MGTOW-man edges out PUA-lout for the title of Supreme Whinger in Sulk Fest 2018.

  • Jani

    Go back to school, boy.

  • Jani

    We can actually make human beings and feed them with our own bodies. Ever met a man who can do that?

  • TwinMamaManly

    No worries at all, I always appreciate your comments as a perspective from the opposite sex who has considered the radfem viewpoint. We small tribe of radical feminists and feminist allies need to stick together!

  • Jani

    WTF is a “paper abortion”??!!!

    In my country, abortion is legal and it’s free, yes FREE, on our National Health Service. It is a surgical procedure. No one else gets to decide other than the individual undergoing the surgery. And yes, there is counselling beforehand and yes, women have the absolute right to change their mind at any time right until the last minute. Ultimately it’s the woman’s decision. It’s her body. Her future.

    If men don’t want to impregnate women they should use a condom or get a vasectomy. Once again, in my wonderful country contraception is free, including emergency contraception following unprotected sex or condom failure etc. Women DO actually take responsibility for their contraception and their sexual health. And yes, STI testing is all free in my country too.

    In truth, we don’t care about silly MGTOW boys and all the rest because when women have access to reproductive and sexual healthcare, we make decisions in our favour. It’s an absolute joke that you silly boys actually think we would trick some useless lamer who flips burgers for the minimum wage into impregnating us just to get his money. Haven’t you actually noticed that there are plenty of well-educated professional women around these days? Why would we pursue some MGTOW boy who couldn’t find his own head with both hands, never mind his “Own Way”, whatever that is.

  • acommentator

    “They’re just aware that women have become too much of a liability in terms of having romantic relationships. It’s just self preservation.”

    But it is not true. “Women” are not identical robots. Every one is unique in various ways. You don’t have romantic relationships with a class denominated women. You have romantic relationships with particular women.

    And yes, romantic relationships can go awry. So can any other relationship. Every good thing in life amounts to a hostage to fate, since one can end up losing it for any number of reasons. Should we all live a miserable life so as not to risk the dangers of things that make us happy?

    A couple I know recently lost a 12 year old child. Out of the blue, had a heart attack and died. They are devastated. Should no one have children because of the risk of losing one?

  • Disqus is not responsible for “pending” still remaining locked to several comments I made here. And checking the actual comment section, visibly verifying the comments are still absent is the responsibility of moderators. If you are going to bitch, at least get the facts straight. This site is fascist.

    I am no victim. That is feminists’ mantra. It works like a charm on duped men too. Activates them just like a bunch of spring-loaded wind up dolls.

    Don’t worry, I am out of here. People who have no argument but instead rely on their feelings which skew perspectives of reality do exactly what this site has done: spew name calling, shoot ad hominem attacks…anything other than actually prove the opposing voice wrong. Not going to sink into this fascist pit of losers any deeper. Buh-bye.

    • Meghan Murphy

      I have been moderating comments on this site since its inception. Trust me, I know how it works. You are a moronic baby.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Comments are not all approved in the order they were left. You seem to expect to be prioritized and treated differently than everyone else here. Funny that.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Why on earth should a man get to decide what a woman does with her own body and life?

  • Meghan Murphy

    Women are not going around raping men with any kind of regularity. Men do not live in fear of being raped by women. Men are raped by other men. Women do not pose a threat to men.

    • BlueLanternMonk

      From an article entitled: The CDC’s Rape Numbers Are Misleading, since I’m uncertain if I may leave hyperlinks…..: In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.

      • Meghan Murphy

        lol no. Women do not commonly go around penetrating men against their will.

  • Meghan Murphy

    GET OVER YOURSELF.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “Women are tumultuous but when they are with a man, he is a stabilizing factor, so a lot of them calm down.”

    lol no. Men drive women crazy. Emotional torture, gaslighting, and abuse will do that to a person…

  • Meghan Murphy

    A vasectomy is a much simpler procedure than a hysterectomy and reversible. No one ‘forces men to parent’. Men do whatever tf they want, for the most part, when it comes to parenting.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I don’t want it to be illegal for men to be assholes. I want men to not be assholes… That is to say, I’d prefer we were all socialized differently and that men treated women with respect.

  • Alienigena

    Are men who claim to be feminist and have a large following just trying to expand the market for their brand (I prefer the term personality cult), that is, are they trying to recruit women as potential consumers. Because I do think a lot of these men are that cynical. Particularly those whose media empires expand to include feminist media outlets, or products. I am trying to not subsidize such men financially by not watching movies or tv shows they finance, produce, direct or act in that support an ideology of violence (gratuitous violence or pointless hetero sex (does not advance plot in any way) in action movies, horror movies, sci-fi, etc.) and not visiting websites owned by men or blogs written by men who supposedly have feminist cred. I don’t have a PC imagination so will continue to find certain men humourous (e.g. Monty Python). I think women need to hold all men to account especially those who make claims on our time, attention, and money (and to whom you are not related, married to, a caregiver of, or in a relationship with).

    • Meghan Murphy

      See: Charles Clymer

      • Jani

        That man is a lunatic

        • Meghan Murphy

          yep

  • Alienigena

    Or to he might be off to No Way. Not much difference between One Wayers and No Wayers in the series BrainDead, at least in terms of tactics and level of vitriol.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4877736/

  • I think “reasonable suspicion” makes perfect sense, of course. But I do think there is an important distinction between men who call themselves “feminist” and those who use the word “pro-feminist.” The radical women of the Second Wave explicitly invited male support and although the response was minimal, it was big enough to constitute an entity in its own right–for a brief time. This response was a conscious political act which called for an identity… some men said they were anti-sexists which was right if you were looking at them, but many circumstances as when writing for example called for a sex identity and thus the self-description of “pro-feminist.” Which simply means: I support feminism, but as a male, I cannot be a feminist. It’s really no big deal, but often the self-naming is critical, and cannot be just dispensed with. It also puts pressure on men who use it to act in accordance with it (whether they do or not)

    • Meghan Murphy

      Yes, me too. Men who claim the label ‘feminist,’ are suspect. Men are welcome to be allies/to support feminism… imo

  • Meghan Murphy

    Exactly!!! I’d add that it is because he then has a caretaker — both in terms of domestic labour, but also emotional labour.

  • Meghan Murphy

    If only you could see the comments that didn’t make it through moderation!

    • Robert Gonzalez

      I don’t know how you do it day in and day out. You have a fortitude man-babies can only dream of, Meghan.

      • Meghan Murphy

        🙂

  • Meghan Murphy

    idk why not just not enter into codependent relationships? This notion that women somehow ‘ruin men’s lives’ makes no sense to me. You are your own person. In any case, in my experience, it’s men who are constantly trying to force me into codependent relationships with them. They don’t understand that relationships are about two individuals, and that we don’t need to ‘prove our love’ or loyalty or commitment or whatever by giving up ourselves and our independence. Women are more often in the ‘supportive’ role in relationship, giving up their own independence, goals, careers, personalities, social lives in order to support mens’. Men are the ones always trying to force me not to be myself and whining at me for having my own life.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Nah. Men are dramatic as fuck. Women are much more emotionally stable, imo. We can talk about our emotions clearly and like adults, whereas I find men just blow up and turn what should be a regular, adult conversation into some big drama.

  • Robert Lindsay

    I don’t care how you feel about me. But the hatred of men in general on here, yes, it’s annoying.

    LOL I am not an active MRA.

    Wait, MRA’s threaten feminists with rape and murder?

  • Jani

    What is the source of your information re what happened and/or what was said between Kimmel and the woman you refer to? Can you provide a link to your source?

  • 2cyar

    “Wait a minute. There was a graduate student six weeks into her studies. He suggested that they sleep together. How is that sexual harassment? All she has to do is say no, and it’s over. You can’t “harass” someone ONE TIME. The word harassment means the guy has been told she’s not interested, and he carries on bothering her and pestering her even after he has been given the hard shutdown many times.”

    It’s not as simple as deciding that she isn’t interested, and declining his offer, if the person making the proposition has power to control her future career or academic prospects. She doesn’t know how a ‘NO’ answer will affect her…she will naturally wonder if it will mean a failing grade in her academic or professional career and be under a lot more coercive pressure to say yes than if a guy propositioned her at the grocery store, for example. The US military and many corporations understand this dynamic and have put non-fraternization policies in place as a result.

    I have female bosses and I do not want any of them to ever proposition me for an intimate relationship. It’s a given that the answer will be no…not just because I’m married…but because intimate relationships in the workplace often go wrong and will cause a lot of awkwardness at the least, and the likely necessity of one of us having to find other employment at the worst. If I am propositioned and answer no, then I know that all of the inevitable future crappy work assignments that I now take in stride as part of the job will make me suspicious that I am being retaliated against and build resentment over time. A proposition from a superior therefore means that I need to get a different job. If I was employed in a relatively small community, such as the field of masculinities for example, then a proposition could mean the end of my current career in my mind. I prefer to keep my work relationships clean, professional, and straight forward so I support non-fraternization policies.

    Professor Kimmel claims to be an expert in these types of relationship power dynamics, so he should know better than to ever engage in this type of predatory behaviour, whether his employer has policies against it or not.

    And possibly he has behaved a lot worse than simply asking somebody out on a date.

    #Ibelieve.

    • marv

      Robert is an older man trying to justify his own pursuit of women way younger than himself. He wants to keep his ego conscience from facing his sexism. He admitted to seeking young women in another comment somewhere else on FC.

      • Jani

        Yeah, I know. Why would an 18 year old be interested in a man of 60 rather than a young, handsome, 20 year old guy in his physical prime? Most 18 year olds would feel grossed out at the thought of a naked 60 year old man. And just what exactly does an 18 year old have in common with a 60 year old? Not much. Men like this don’t seem to realise they’re the butt of the joke in these cases. Sorry, but it’s true.

        • marv

          No doubt. I hope at least he has given Meghan some money for her work.

          • Meghan Murphy

            Nope lol

      • Robert Gonzalez

        I’ve investigated Robert Lindsay’s posts across the internet. He’s attempted to justify pedophilia, according to some Redditors. I’m not sure if the posts he made are still accessible, but he has obviously garnered attention for being a fucking creep and pervert. The dude has to put his two cents into every discussion.

  • Meghan Murphy

    We do indeed realize how insecure you are. I am well aware that much of the control, jealousy, attempts to force me into a codependent relationship are due to insecurity. That said, men are no stupider than women, and should figure out that it isn’t ok to project your own failings or flaws onto other people. It is not my job to ‘fix’ a man’s insecurity by changing myself or being less independent. Adults should understand how to separate *their* stuff from other people’s stuff, and it’s really amazing and frustrating to me how few men understand this and seem to believe women should change to accommodate or comfort them. I believe much of this is due to male entitlement and lack of accountability. Too many let them get away with this shit, so they think it’s normal and ok, and the women who refuse or who call them out on it are “mean.”

  • Meghan Murphy

    I think that, yes, younger people are generally melodramatic, and that men are socialized to keep their emotions at bay, so perhaps it is not out in the open with young men the same as it is with young women. Later on, I think it’s at least partially about emotional intelligence and learning how to communicate like a grownup. Men do a LOT less work on themselves, therapy, self-help, etc., because they are not held accountable for their behaviour, and women, as you imply, are labelled as ‘crazy’ if they express any emotions at all (particularly anger). Women are very accepting of the idea that they are always the problem, always flawed, and should always be fixing themselves and bettering themselves, whereas men are not, so many simply do not do the work they need to in order to become emotionally mature people, and to learn how to communicate effectively and respectfully. They are used to women doing all that for them, and used to women putting up with their bad behaviour/coddling them.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I am an intermittent fascist.

  • marv

    Men are intimidating, what do you expect?

  • Meghan Murphy

    MRAs have no clue what a feminist actually is, so find women who aren’t feminist to claim they are, but to make MRA argumnets, and then can’t seem to figure out why no actual feminist takes them seriously.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Men rarely seem to ‘grow up and act in an adult manner’ when they enter into relationships with women.

    • marv

      Collective antagonism and immaturity can’t be undermined until class divisions are removed. Once the structural groundwork has been laid reconciliation and mutuality are achievable. The sexual politics of psychology.

  • Meghan Murphy

    This makes no sense.

  • Meghan Murphy

    lol I will try this on him tonight. He is likely too intelligent to be duped by this maneuver though.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “Yes, men do not try to fix themselves because you are never supposed to be so screwed up that you need outside help such as therapy. You are supposed to fix yourself up on your own. Men hate going to therapy and if other men find out about it, they might not be pleasant. They might ridicule or insult you. So men don’t seek help because they don’t want to be attacked for doing so.”

    This is true. But it is also true that a man, just like a woman, should suck it up/get over this fear of judgement, and seek help/try to improve their behaviour anyway.

  • Raelee

    All of what you assumed is completely false… faulty reporting with rape is lower than other crimes. Meaning, you’d be more likely to be falsely convicted of murder, or any other crime for that matter, than rape, making it a ridiculous concern to focus on (men should be more worried about false convictions in general. )

    Only 6% of reported rape end up even being persued by the legal system. So over 90% of reported rapists walk free (there’s millions of DNA samples currently sitting untested). To actually convict, there needs to be strong evidence (unlike your baseless assumptions.) Even then, with undeniable evidence (dna, video, messages, witnesses, etc) many face little to no jail time, including cases with underage victims.

    That’s without mentioning how a good portion of “false reports” are actually not false due to victims making it up, but labeled as such because of failure within the legal system: police talking victims out of persuing, cases before DNA use, or no DNA, poor follow up from police, evidence not allowed in court (ex: messages, prior history, from perpetrator), victims unable to make it through proceedings, etc.

    All of what I mentioned can and does occur with other crimes. Murder has and is convicted on less evidence than rape cases that go to court (circumstantial evidence)… which once again, false reports and convictions occur more in all other crimes. Alleged Victims of any crime are always referred to victims – nothing unique with rape – so pointless concern over it because men overly focus on that term only when it comes to that crime.

    In a system that is already overly lenient with male perpetrators of sex crimes, it’s no surprise convicted males are getting extra attention. Also leaves out that males commit a majority of crimes in general, combined with the fact all crimes have a percentage of innocent convictions, it’s not surprising there’s some men that may have been innocent (again: just like any other crime…) and many have been old cases, before DNA…

    Every single concern you mention is not unique to rape/ sexual assault… really, by expecting even lower standards, expectations, etc, for just that type of crime, while ignoring there’s similar flaws with other crimes (which again, is falsely persecuted at higher rates already), is arguing that victims of sexual crimes are less deserving justice, than any other victim.

    It’s one thing to want changes in general…. It’s another for men to hyper focus on that particular crime without any justified reasons… except for an obvious personal bias. Otherwise, they would stop making poor excuses they never seem to make for other crimes, with similar failings, like murder, which is falsely convicted at higher rates, carries much more harsher punishments, etc.

    Honestly, these baseless concerns, come across as men downplaying sexual assaults. They are more concerned with those perpetrators, unlike other crimes, where they rather risk these men let off, even those where evidence points to guilty, because they don’t seem to view the crime as being serious enough to persue … “just in case”. They just don’t take that same stance with other crimes, even demanding victims should be considered something other than victims…

    • Doug Lefelhocz

      “All of what you assumed is completely false… faulty reporting with
      rape is lower than other crimes. Meaning, you’d be more likely to be
      falsely convicted of murder, or any other crime for that matter, than
      rape, making it a ridiculous concern to focus on”

      No, my claim was not incorrect. The Innocence Project (IP) lists 277 cases which involve a sex crime: https://archive.is/4t3Er

      But, there are 358 cases listed overall: https://archive.is/Z0Gxj

      “Only 6% of reported rape end up even being persued by the legal system. So over 90% of reported rapists walk free (there’s millions of DNA samples currently sitting untested). ”

      No, it doesn’t imply that, because the percentage of accusations which do not meet the criminal definition is unknown. Also, it implies that if reporting a case which won’t go to trial is “faulty reporting”, then 94% of reported rape cases end up with faulty reporting.

      “Murder…”

      The Innocence Project lists 128 homicide related exonerations: https://archive.is/xO3Lu That’s less than 277.

      “Alleged Victims of any crime are always referred to victims – nothing unique with rape”

      No, “alleged victims” are not always referred to as “victims” are not. See here for example where “alleged victim” got used: https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2018/05/25/arizona-appeals-court-rules-ok-use-term-alleged-victim-during-trial/643110002/

      Specifically: “Foster pondered the matter for three months and then ruled that to call
      her “the victim” would compromise Achenbach’s right to a presumption of
      innocence. ”

      Presumption of innocence applies to all crimes.

      “It’s one thing to want changes in general…. It’s another for men to
      hyper focus on that particular crime without any justified reasons…
      except for an obvious personal bias.”

      See above with respect to the IP. More people get exonerated from sex crimes than other types of crimes.

      “Otherwise, they would stop making poor excuses they never seem to make
      for other crimes, with similar failings, like murder, which is falsely
      convicted at higher rates…”

      No, I don’t agree that murder gets falsely convicted at higher rates. You really haven’t come even remotely close to demonstrating that either.

      “They just don’t take that same stance with other crimes, even demanding
      victims should be considered something other than victims”

      No one is victim merely by an accusation. If an accusation is false, the victim is not the accuser, but the person accused of the misconduct. Every man or woman who gets convicted of a crime that he or she did not commit is a victim of defamation of character, and a victim of the state. Every man or women who gets put on trial with a false accusation made by the accused is a victim of the false accuser.

  • Jani

    It makes sense for the women who choose to do so.

  • Meghan Murphy

    lolllllll you guys are all the same, good god.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “Feminist means someone who believes in gender equality. Either you are a feminist or you are a bigot.”

    I have literally never said this and I am fairly certain everyone on this site would dispute the “Feminist means someone who believes in gender equality” statment.

    • Robert Lindsay

      I don’t get it. If you don’t believe in gender equality or equal rights for women, what do you believe in then? I thought the whole feminist movement was about equal rights for women. You mean it’s about something else?

      Color me confused.

      • Meghan Murphy

        We want to create a world wherein power is not assigned to one sex and wherein that one sex is dominant, and the other subordinate. Yes, we want women to have the same rights men have, but that is not the end all be all, because we don’t like the system those rights exist within.

  • Meghan Murphy

    It sounds like you aren’t very familiar with radical feminist analysis. I think you are misunderstanding the ‘women’s rights are human rights’ phrase, but it’s not common for radical feminists to say it…

  • Meghan Murphy

    yep

  • Meghan Murphy

    Unless you’re commenting under a different account, as well as this one, NONE OF YOUR COMMENTS HAVE BEEN DELETED. Stop whining.

    • I don’t need another account. I am not whining. Your shaming tactic is futile. Many of my comments still say pending on my disqus. And they do not appear on the thread. Telling the truth is not whining. Telling the truth is not hatred. It is awfully late for you to finally be coming to me to make sure I haven’t been cheated out of my voice. I made my complaints about censorship here over a day ago. Where were you then? Have you finally allowed me to speak? Should I check your website again? Are the people who wanted to say something to me going to be engaged? Or does the winner be the side that was permitted to speak? That’s some big winning.

      • Meghan Murphy

        OH MY GOD. “Pending” means they have not been approved yet OR that you edited your comment and it went back into moderation. EVERYONE’S COMMENTS ARE MODERATED. THEY ARE ALL “PENDING” UNTIL APPROVED. “Pending” does not = “removed” or “censored,” you ridiculous teenager. Now stop wasting my time.

  • Meghan Murphy

    I suppose I find aspects of the conversation interesting.

  • marv

    Great conspiratorial comedy-act! A one man road show around the world.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Your comment went back into moderation because edited it, you giant tool. That’s how Disqus works.

    • I knew that one would be re-moderated. But there were several other ones. I am no novice with disqus.

      Thank you for finally taking my comments out of pending status.

      Good bye.

      • Meghan Murphy

        Byeeeee

  • Meghan Murphy

    lol

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yeah, that’s not what that phrase means….

    • Doug Lefelhocz

      I would hope it clear “men’s rights are human rights and human rights are men’s rights” is exclusionary.

      Similarly, “women’s rights are human rights and human rights are women’s rights” is exclusionary.

      Both phrases identity human rights with the rights of one sex.

      • Meghan Murphy

        The point is that women are human, dimwit. Women’s rights are human rights because we deserve, as all humans do, to live with dignity, free from violence, harassment, discrimination, and abuse.

  • FierceMild

    A man is more likely to be raped by another man than to be falsely accused of rape by anyone. You should rethink where your energy and sense of fear belong.

  • Meghan Murphy

    His primary contribution appears to be comments expressing concern that his comments about his comments being censored might be censored.

  • Meghan Murphy

    And I suppose you believe calling feminists ‘truth hating fascists’ because your comments took too long (according to you) to be approved constitutes a strong argument?

  • Meghan Murphy

    You aren’t making any arguments. You’re just whining about a thing that isn’t even happening.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Yeah dude. Sometimes it takes that long. Literally all commenters here have suffered with their comments sitting in moderation for a day and sometimes more. I get through them as quickly as I can, but if I’m not at home, on my laptop, they have to wait. Sorry I’m not able to be on here 24/7. You are wasting everyone’s time here and only making yourself look like an idiotic crybaby.

  • acommentator

    Of course not everyone still loves their abuser. And of course there is no way to make up for the damage abuse has caused. But clearly many do still love their abusers, just as many women still care for the husbands or boyfriends who abuse them.

    The more I know of people, the more complicated their feelings and relationships seem to me.

  • acommentator

    I don’t need you to teach me about “the left.” I have been conservative longer than you have been alive. I remember all kinds of “lefts.”

    Nor do I need to look up fascism. I have been around long enough to remember actual fascist governments. I remember Franco. I remember various Latin American generals. For you to use the word as you do is juvenile.

    It would not even be objectionable, never mind “fascist” for this private forum to be limited to feminist viewpoints. But other viewpoints are allowed expression on here, including both mine and yours. Your complaints are ridiculous.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Actually plenty of men don’t know how to control their emotions, act out like children, and are whiny. I’d argue that these traits are much more common to men than to women.

    Many, many comments have been left “pending” for longer than yours, in the history of this site. You are a self-absorbed baby.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You’re an idiot.

  • Alienigena

    “Wait, 1 in 23? I balked when I read that too, in spite of my own experiences. But then I thought about it. Rape researchers include all rapes in that, including marital rapes and partner rapes …”

    When you consider that marital rape was only criminalised in 1983 in Canada, in 1993 in most US states and in 1991 in the UK it isn’t surprising the numbers are so low. How many women want to charge their male spouses with rape, especially those who have children in common with their rapist? This does not even include the pressure from family members or the cultures in which women live to just accept these behaviours as part of marriage. Given all the support and subtle (or not so subtle) coercion in popular media on heterosexual women to make more of an effort to have an active sex life (women are characterised as the problem sex), I have to assume marital rape is still occurring and not being reported.

    Rape within marriage criminalised in Canadian Law
    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/canadian-law-only-changed-26-years-ago/article1150644/

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/relationships/ontario-ruling-shines-spotlight-on-misconceptions-about-maritalrape/article36801060/

  • Meghan Murphy

    Oh please.

  • Meghan Murphy

    lol

  • Meghan Murphy

    Why haven’t you left yet? Why do you care so much what women think, considering your supposed political position re: ‘going your own way’?

  • Meghan Murphy

    “But if he had done this to her, he likely would have gotten a much tougher sentencing for doing the exact same thing.”

    Nah.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Do you understand that we really don’t care what you think? The reason MRAs are so ornery is that no one takes them or their opinions seriously.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You are a very sad child 🙁

  • Meghan Murphy

    Only a very small minority of men are held to account for abusing women, and even then, their sentences are short.

  • Meghan Murphy

    What exactly are we asking for? I’m so curious.

  • Meghan Murphy

    No, many men are *not* falsely accused, and certainly many of men ‘falsely accused’ are not jailed. Most men LEGITIMATELY accused are not jailed.

  • Meghan Murphy

    “Feminists are asking/demanding to be treated the same as men…”

    lol we literally are not. You are ignorant and should be embarrassed.

    • Well what is equality with men if it is not to be treated equally as men? Why would anyone claim to be for equality if they don’t want to be treated equally?

      Then tell me, please, what feminists are wanting and how it is not expecting the same treatment as men get.

      If you are telling me that women want to be equal, but too, they don’t, then I agree. It was my point too: the responsibility part, that is.

      • Meghan Murphy

        We literally don’t say we want equality. You are on the wrong website, son.

        What we want is an end to patriarchy and male violence against women. We want a whole new system, not one wherein we are ‘treated like men’.

  • Meghan Murphy

    If you are not capable of patiently dealing with moderation like everyone else here and keep wasting my time harping on this, I’m just going to stop approving your comments. You are wasting time and space here.

    • I was patient. It had been quite a while since I posted. I was just letting you know that I had answered your question.

      • Meghan Murphy

        This is how long it takes sometimes. Get used to it. Stop talking about it.

  • Meghan Murphy

    You were never a feminist. The fact you would even say such a thing goes to show how little you understand about this movement.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Oh god please.

  • Meghan Murphy

    Right. Though we don’t use the term “Equity Feminist,” we use the term “liberal feminist,” to refer to those who wish to maintain the system at hand, but just tweak it a little.

  • Robert Gonzalez

    Why did you choose to hyperfocus on one statement said on one website somewhere on the internet that is not agreed upon by all feminists? I question your motives for even posting that to begin with. It’s fairly obvious that there was the use of informal speech on the site you mentioned. It was meant to convey that women’s rights are in fact human rights. Could it have been worded right when they said “Human rights are women’s rights?” Maybe so, but I think it take a nitwit to not understand the original intention of that statement.

    Or, rather than being just a nitwit, Doug, I think you posted that with an agenda. You cherrypicked it, thinking you had something proved feminists are out to eliminate men’s rights. You’re a men’s rights activist and you’re determined to reach the conclusion that feminism is a problem and that men are the victims of feminists and immoral women.

    As a man I have not experienced oppression at the hands of feminists or any women. I haven’t witnessed any sort of female privilege throughout my life. As a man I have not suffered any sort of severe oppression for being a man that I couldn’t blame on other men. I’ve watched lectures related to men’s rights and the red pill movement. I’m not convinced by anything they have to say. Nothing they say that has any merit is anything that feminists had not already noticed years ago.

  • Meghan Murphy

    But you’re doing it right now…

  • Meghan Murphy

    The third wave is a backlash to feminism, yes.

  • Robert Gonzalez

    I almost, almost, thought about replying to you the way that you requested. But this isn’t a site for me to do your fucking homework. You’re on a feminist site and the burden is on you. If I were on an MRA forum, that would be a different story. If you’re so passionate about protecting men’s rights then, please, provide the proof that convinces you that you’re oppressed. Define your own oppression for me. Prove to me that feminists are harming you. Prove to me that no feminist has ever talked about how the patriarchy negatively impacts men. Prove to me that feminists have never mentioned the negative side effects of male circumcision. Prove to me that it’s not men oppressing you. Are we in a matriarchy, in your opinion?

    Are you referring to male circumcision as “male genital mutilation?” If so, you’re not going to convince me that circumcision is on average as debilitating as FGM. I will leave room for botched male circumcision surgeries, as I have certainly heard of that happening. Is male circumcision unnecessary? Certainly. Should we stop doing it? I believe so; however, it was done to me as an infant and it has not negatively impacted how my penis functions. That’s not the case with female genital mutilation. Go educate yourself on FGM https://www.desertflowerfoundation.org/en/what-is-fgm.html

  • marv

    Put away these odd balls. Some black people are opposed to Black Lives Matter. Doesn’t prove the movement is invalid. There are wayward grand-standers for one cause or another everywhere..

    You do seem like an alt-right person. Frequently sexism and racism go hand in hand with this type. Are you against BLM?

  • marv

    The man is a gold digger at feminists’ expense. The gold is women’s free labour and time. He hasn’t paid a dime to FC. Plus his mother does his laundry and he chases young women. He is here to entertain his mind. There is a lot more but I won’t bother you with it.

  • Cassandra

    Nah. MRAs are reactionaries by definition.

  • Cassandra

    Yes, you’re right. I was speaking generally.

  • Cassandra

    Lesbians are not in a position of social power and are oppressed because they are female homosexuals and have to live in a culture that generally hates them, so of course they’re going to continue to rail against males. MGTOW’s on the other hand, are male—members of the oppressor class—and they’re just whiny babies. POWER dynamics can never be separated from any of this. None of us lives in a vacuum.

  • Meghan Murphy

    LOLOLOOLLLLLLLLLL

  • Meghan Murphy

    Why are you asking me this? I have not made the arguments above, someone else has.

  • marv

    Sexual abuse of women is systemic by men. The opposite is not a pillar of society. The actual question should be, what are you doing about the overwhelming problem of male dominance?

    Would you ask black people what they are doing to stop harming white police officers or other whites? I doubt it. Think harder.